Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Brother Ibn Siddique has mashAllah done a lot of explanation and you still fail to understand him ...

You tell me why even 1 Sahabi would stand up to say Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) should be alive after his natural death by using the example of Isa (AS) when they knew that Isa (AS) was taken up by miracle?

For some they thought for an instance 'how can our prophet die?' but then the Qur'an showed that RasoolAllah (SAW) will die ... Furthermore it indicates he could do so in their own life times ... But not so with Isa (AS) ...and his own companions.

For the Sahaba to use the argument that you suggest then you are accusing them of denying the miracle of ascension of Isa (AS) . They didn't use the argument it follows because they believed in Ascension miracle.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I'm yet to see a 'single' verse telling me he is 'not' dead. On the other hand, I can give you many verses in which you will keep on trying to find exceptions.

I'm not quoting the whole reply you posted, as it would make my reply boring to read. Though, my this reply will be in accordance to everything you posted about miracle.

I never denied miracles. They are indeed sign from Allah. Now, this is my personal understanding. If we believe Quran to be the word of Allah and that whatever stories of previous prophets told in Quran are to warn us to not make same mistakes again. And the miracles given to earlier prophets did happen, and were from Allah, then only the miracles that had happened before which are described in Quran can again happen. They will still be called miracles ! Remember, we are talking about till the day Muhammad PBUH died and going back as far as you can, and whatever Quran has told us as miracles. Anything that Quran approves of can happen and can still be considered a miracle. Again, thats my own personal understanding. Anything you use as an example of miracle and try to apply it to the ascension of Jesus a.s is quite frankly a very poor argument from your side.

Jesus was born to a virgin Mary. Quran said so. I believe.
Hazrat Adam a.s, Hazrat Hawwa, and their creation. Quran said so. I believe.

You see, first Allah makes the laws. Then whatever exceptions he made, he told it clearly in Qur'an. No where in Quran will you find a single verse declaring isa a.s alive. Why should I believe something which Quran strongly opposes ? How do I believe that Qur'an contains every details need to be known to humans and yet Allah forgot to add the event of ascension of Isa a.s? nauzubillah

On one hand you say it is only Allah who bring about death on people and put life into people, and then on other hand you say Isa a.s used to do the same (by the will of God)? Like i said, not agreeing to your understanding of certain verses/hadith does not make me denier of them. You simply need some more understanding.. need to keep whole Quran into consideration. Do you know people who were kaafirs are addressed by Quran as dead, even if they were alive? and people who die in the name of Lord are called alive even if their bodies are physically dead? just a food for thought.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

What is this nonesensical statement ...???

Miracle = unique exception to natural laws

Now replace this in your statement and you are saying ...

Only the unique exceptions that had happened before ...

Things that have happened before are part of the class of things that are " not unique exceptions" so You have prepared a statement that nullifies itself ... It hence means you not believe in miracle.

You are saying you only believe it is possible for something to happen if it is NOT against the norm and at least has to have happened once before ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

1)Quran explains itself by having other kind of verses to make your belief firm. It is not wise to use one verse of Quran and use it in ur favor and neglect all the other verses by creating exceptions in it.
2) Sunnah or i'd say ahadith of prophet s.a.w indicates Jesus son of Mary, Jesus of Nazareth, the prophet sent to bani israel dead. You have in front of you a hadith of Muhammad PBUH spiritually going to heaven and meeting Jesus along with Hazrat Yahya a.s in the 2nd heaven. You have in front of you a hadith in which Muhammad PBUH will say exactly what Jesus will say on the day of judgement ' my lord i was witness over them as long as i lived among them, but when you caused me to die, only you were guardian over them ' . You have in front of you hadith in which physical feature of Jesus of Nazareth described differently than Jesus who will be coming back in the latter days. I can keep naming them.. but I dont see the point.
3) Since when was there an ijmah of sahabah that Jesus a.s is alive?

4) Qiyas and ijtihad will work only if you keep into consideration what Quran has been trying to tell you.

[QUOTE]
You have quoted the following ayah time and again.

He (also) said: Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and from it shall you be raised. [7:25]

This ayah is general in meaning;

1) That mankind will live on Earth
2) On Earth they will die
3) From it they will be raised

What’s your problem with this?

These are general rules and Divine Miracles always go against the Rules which were put in place by Allah (swt) Himself. Thus a miracle.

Those have faith in Ability of Allah to do whatever He Wills have no difficulty with any miracles in the Quran or Hadith.

Those who have pseudo-rationality, due to their own limited minds, cannot comprehend Omnipotence of Allah (swt); thus they want to Limit Allah’s Ability to their own flawed rationality.
[/QUOTE]

My problem is pretty straight forward.

Earth is where you live. Earth is where you die. Even with the exception in the verse, you can come up with something like.. people CAN and HAVE live/lived outside of the earth.. and people CAN have HAVE died outside of the Earth. I'm asking you "how" people CAN live outside of Earth and still be alive. 2) Why should I not believe Jesus IS dead even if hes not on Earth?

"Have we not made the earth so as to hold the living and the dead?" (77:26-7)

Allah made earth to hold living and the dead. Living creatures are ON Earth, and dead are ON Earth. Because thats from where you'll be brought up from.

[QUOTE]
In plain English I am rejecting your pseudo-rationality not the Quran - Your understanding is at variant what the Prophet taught and and as understood by the Sahabah (May Allah be pleased with them all)
[/QUOTE]

we dont have to tweak quran and ahadith and their meaning according to our beliefs, but rather adjust our beliefs in accordance to Quran and ahadith. My rationality is valid. Quran tells me to look at the whole Quran and then base my belief accordingly. My beliefs are in exact accordance to Quran and ahadith. I'm not making exceptions in quran or ahadith based on my belief. I'm telling you this is what Quran says, and this is what my belief is. You on the other hand tells me this is my belief, and with these many exceptions, thats how i came up with that belief.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I knew something like this will be coming from you.

First off, It doesnt make sense for you to disqualify my argument about a human being made only for Earth. Secondly, you cannot disprove my argument by coming up with it being a 'miracle'.

But anyhow, I can answer that still. Like i said in my post, that was my own personal belief. I could be wrong. That was entirely what I believe. Natural laws are told in Quran. Exceptions which were made are told by Quran as well. Now, since we know Allah says that we will not find any changes in His sunnah, we can conclude that whatever miracles that we understood it must agree with Quran. What Qur'an says is the ultimate truth.

Miracles which are clearly told that it happened with prophets, had happened. Some of which can never happen ( Moses stick, Jesus born to virgin Mary, creation of Adam ), some which despite being miracles of prophets were understood in a wrong way ( isa a.s bringing life to dead literally, splitting of moon, isra al miraj ) can happen again. ((((isa a.s bringing life to dead meaning putting life to a person who was spiritually dead.. done by many prophets , splitting of moon being kashf in which the scale of kashf was expanded to non believers too , isra al miraj being a spiritual journey etc )))) these despite being miracles, can happen again. By understanding the true understanding of the miracles performed by prophets , we can understand lots of Islam.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Even though miracle is not the topic in hand. My argument has still been that since Allah said therein shall you live, and we find no exception in Quran, i'm sayin that this is a place you are to live, anywhere outside of Earth is not a place to live. That has always been my argument on this thread.

But anyhow, Ibn Sadique was mentioning about some miracles.. I thought i should add some more and tell you what i believe they meant. Instead of taking everything literally and saying that the attributes which are of God only can be found in prophets too is a form of shirk. Therefore, these miracles should be understood in a manner suitable for Quran.

The idiomatic style of the Holy Quran describes those who refuse to accept the Divine message (Surah An-Naml 27:81), (Surah Fatir 35:23), (Surah Al-Anfal 8:25)] as ‘dead’ and depicts the believers as ‘alive’ (Surah Ya-Sin 36:71) even if they are killed in the way of Allāh (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:155).

Unfortunately, you interpret these verses as literally and against the firm verses of the Holy Quran.While interpreting these verses, the earlier Muslim commentators neglect the inviolable Divine law that, dead are never sent back to this world and that those, who pass away from this world, pass away forever, (Surah Al-Anbiya 21:96), (Surah Al-Mu'minun 23:100-101), (Surah Ya-Sin 36:32), (Surah Az-Zumar 39:43)]. (verses to check in your own spare time).

Likewise, you forgot to mention a prophet who you believe died for 100 years and was brought back to life. This was again a mistake for taking things literally. (2-259).

Prophet Ezekiel passed by the ruins of Jerusalem, destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Saddened over this situation, he asked God when this city shall be revived again. God showed him in a dream that after 100 years, Jerusalem shall be rebuilt. This vision is also mentioned in the Bible (Ezekiel-37). The Holy Qur`ān sometimes mentions scenes seen in a vision as if they had actually happened, without stating that they were witnessed in a vision or dream e.g., (Surah Yusuf 12:5).
Causing him to die and then raising him was not the answer to his question. He asked about the revival of the city and it was showed to him in the vision that Jerusalem shall be rebuilt in 100 years. This vision came to fulfillment. Pointing towards his food, which was still fresh, and donkey, which was still alive, shows that he did not remain dead for 100 years.

There is also a miracle that people associate with Abraham that He also raised slaughtered birds. In 2-260, Abraham was told to attach 4 birds with him and then let them free and then if u call upon them they will come to him. It shows that Allah was telling Abraham to be attached to people and tell them the word of God, once they accept you(brought to life), they will come running towards you everytime you call them. It also has another interpretation ( ask me if you need to know ), but ill leave it at that. Hope that helps.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

In this section you have 2 counter posts:

  1. Can I disprove your argument that a human being is only made for Earth?

Yes … I can

**“Indeed, those who disbelieve and commit wrong [or injustice] - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path. ****Except the path of Hell; they will abide therein forever. And that, for Allah , is [always] easy.”
**
Surat An-Nisa’ [4:168-169] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

  1. You said “You cannot disqualify my argument by coming up with it being a miracle”

Well this is not written correctly … I’m not calling your argument a miracle - however it is a miracle that you still cannot understand … (and that is being nice, because as far as I can see you don’t want to understand).

What you are really saying is that I cannot disqualify your argument by calling the incident a miracle … but I just did disqualify it by calling that incident a miracle … so long as you believe in miracles then we should be on the same page … if on the other hand you deny miracles then that is cause of your confusion why you think I cannot disqualify your argument, it is because your view is different to mine about miracles - your idea of miracles is just a rare event but is has to be contained within a pattern of what can be seen in history, my version is any event that goes against the norms.

Here you are arguing from a premise of your own personal belief that could be wrong … !!! This is an example of you using your own mind instead of using the Qur’an and the understanding of the Sahabah … Now your claims is this:

a) Natural Laws are told in the Qur’an
b) Exceptions to natural laws are told in the Qur’an

And your premise is this:

The Sunnah of Allah (SWT) does not change

Now I’m not going to contest this (yet) … I need further information … please comply

i) Are all natural laws told in the Qur’an or only some?
ii) Are all exceptions told in the Qur’an or only some?
iii) Please provide the verses that demonstrate the point that the Sunnah of Allah does not change and how they apply to the idea of miracle - as you see it.

Finally … how do you know that the miracles were understood in the wrong way by others and not by you?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

What gives you the authority to claim that your interpretation is correct and ours is wrong? Or rather how would you convince us that our methods are wrong? What if there are hadith to support our view? Do you have hadith to support your view?

You are just picking random ayats too ... Surah 27 Verse 81 - Why did you quote this verse? ... please explain ... and there is a concern over the other verses you have presented too ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Believe me, it is very frustrating when the debate is going in circles over and over and over …………………….
These are the facts:

You must understand that the Prophet (saw) had died; his blessed dead body was there to be seen by the noble Companions (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all).

They were also aware of the fact the Hz. Musa (as) had died and was buried.

They were also aware of the fact Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) HAD NOT DIED – There was no DEAD BODY of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) and there was not known grave of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) (until someone mentioned 1900 years later). ;) That’s the reason he was NOT mentioned!

Please YOU SHOW me one incidence from history where it shows that any one from among THE BLESSED COMPANIONS (raa) believed that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) had died and that Allah (swt) had NOT taken him up onto Himself.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

This has to everything with jamaat e ahmadiyya, otherwise you wouldn’t be pitching their stance. :wink:

I don’t believe that you wrote that!!! Like a sinking man you are clutching at the straws.
If the word ALL is there then why put it Brackets!!!

It’s Just your assumption. Where does the Quran say so?

See the various translation of verse 3:144 – the anti-Islamic Christians tend to agree with you!

Surah Al-i `Imran (3:144)

Surah Al-i `Imran 3:144

It’s not only me but the whole lot of Muslims – from all the blessed Companions (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) to wayward Muslims believe that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is exception as per Quran and hundreds of references from sayings of the Prophet (saw). Muslims do not need to twist the Quran to fit in their beliefs – it’s the Cults that need to do so.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

You are taking the verse out of context and implying your desired meaning.

Let’s refer to a few ayahs to prior the one quoted.

*
[QUOTE]
Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them messengers; whenever there came to them an messenger with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew. 5:70]

And they thought that there would be no affliction, so they became blind and deaf; then Allah turned to them mercifully, but many of them became blind and deaf; and Allah is well seeing what they do. 5:71]

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust. 5:72]

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve. 5:73]

Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 5:74]

The Messiah, son of Marium is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away. 5:75]

[/QUOTE]
*

Ayahs 5:70 to 5:72 Allah talks about Bani Israel (Jews) – that they mistreated and killed the Messengers sent to from Allah (swt) because their souls did not like the message that was sent.

Ayahs 5:73 to 5:75 Allah addresses the Christians – Allah admonishes/reprimands them about the concept of Trinity.
Allah tells the Christians that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is merely a Messenger and that messengers like him have died before - Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) too, one day will die. [Proof that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum is not part of of any Trinity]. It is ONLY Allah (swt) that lives forever.

Allah gives a further proof of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)’s and his blessed mother’s humanity – THEY BOTH ATE FOOD! And Allah (swt) is far from human need to eat!

It is far from what you are implying – indeed very far.

The above is very fallacious analogy to explain the ayahs above.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

*That they (the Jews) said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them; and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow. For, of a surety they killed him not.

Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. Surah Nisaa verses 157-159:
*
You are free to understand as you see fit – exceptions are Divine Miracle – but you are free to believe what you like.

The problem lies in your own personal understanding.

Quran doesn’t contain every detail – Quran tells to pray – But does not tell us how to pray. We pray according to the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

The Glorious Quran states that the Hz. Isa son of Maryam (a.s.), did not yet taste death but Allah (swt) raised him up unto Himself.

And the various authentic traditions of the Messenger of Allah (saws), it is the ardent belief of the believers that Allah (swt) will send Prophet Isa (a.s.) back to this earth before the end of time, when he (a.s.) will live for forty years and then will die.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4310 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah

The Prophet (saws) said: 'There is no Prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (a.s.). He (Jesus (a.s.) will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish Jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years, and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him."

Hadrat Abdullah ibn Salaam (r.a.) who was a Jewish scholar and Rabbi (priest) before he reverted to Islam, confirmed that there was mention that Isa (a.s.) at his death would be buried alongside the grave of Prophet Mohamed (saws) in Madinah.
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 5772 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Salam

The description of Muhammad (saws) is written in the Torah and also that Jesus (a.s.), son of Mary, will be buried along with him.
Without an iota of a doubt, Hz Isa (a.s.) will return to earth before the end of time, as prophesied by the Last and Final Messenger of Allah (saws).
**
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.657 Narrated by Abu Huraira**
The Messenger of Allah (saws) said, "By Him (Allah) in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you, and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross, and kill the pigs, and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non-Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159)

Sahih Muslim Hadith 6931 Narrated by Hudhayfah ibn Usayd Ghifari

The Messenger of Allah (saws) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion). He (saws) said: "What do you discuss about?" (The Companions) said: "We are discussing about the Last Hour." Thereupon he (saws) said: "It will not come until you see ten signs before and (in this connection), he (saws) made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal (The anti-Christ), the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), The Gog and Magog, and landslides in three places, one in the east, one in the west, and one in Arabia at the end of which a fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.658 Narrated by Abu Huraira

The Messenger of Allah (saws) said: "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you, and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur'an, and not by the law of Gospel"

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4310 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah

The Prophet (saws) said: "There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish Jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist, and will live on the earth for forty years, and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him."

Sahih Muslim Hadith 6924 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah

The Messenger of Allah (saws) said: "The Last Hour will not come until the Romans land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people on Earth at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them). When they arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans will say: 'Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from among us. Let us fight them.' The Muslims will say: 'Nay, by Allah, we shall never turn aside from you and from our brethren so that you may fight them.' They will then fight, and a third (part) of the army, whom Allah will never forgive, will run away. A third (part of the army), which will be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eyes, would be killed. The third who will never be put on trial will win, and they will be the conquerors of Constantinople. As they are busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, Satan will cry: 'The Dajjal (anti-Christ) has taken your place among your families.' They will then come out, but it will be of no avail. When they reach Syria, he will come out while they are still preparing themselves for battle, drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer will come and then, Jesus (peace be upon him), son of Mary, will descend and will lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah see him, it will (disappear) just as salt dissolves in water, and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely. Allah would kill them by his (Jesus's) hand, and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ)."

Sahih Muslim Hadith 7023 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr

The Messenger of Allah (saws) said: "The Dajjal (anti-Christ) will appear in my Ummah and he will stay (in the world) for forty--I cannot say whether he meant forty days, forty months or forty years. Allah will then send Jesus, son of Mary, who will resemble Urwah ibn Mas'ud. He (Jesus Christ) will chase him and kill him."

There are hundred more the above sufficed.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I am quoting Quran – not from fairytales!

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' 5:110]

You are free to agree whatever you want – You want to be pseudo-intellectual – be my guest – May Allah save me from your type of understanding!

The Criteria to end to Understand and interpret Quran al Kareem.

First of all Quran explains itself
Secondly we use the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to understand the Quran
Thirdly we use the Ijma As-Sahabah
Forthly, Qiyas and Ijtihad

Anything out of the above is pure misguidance!!!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Brother Ibn Sadique and you have given me an idea to help us move along a bit inshaAllah ...
**
Let's compare these two verses:

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. **They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Surah 5 Verse 75

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

Surah 3 Verse 144

Now in the case of Muhammad (SAW) to demonstrate that he (SAW) was a messenger ... Allah (SWT) refers to others being killed ... or dieing ... and then applies this example on RasoolAllah (SAW) showing that this will happen in the future to him (SAW). Future because wahi was still being sent to him (SAW).

BUT in the case of Isa (AS) ... Allah (SWT) uses another example to show that he (AS) is a messenger and not Divine ... Allah (SWT) uses eating as the example to show that Isa (AS) is only a messenger and not Divine ...

If Isa (AS) had died then Allah (SWT) would surely use the same argument that was used for Muhammad (SAW) ... that "He has caused him (Isa (AS)) to die" ... but Allah (SWT) is indeed Most Wise ... This was the perfect place to see in the Qur'an if Isa (AS) has died - but no ... we see another example being used to demonstrate his mortality as a messenger ... the fact that he ate food ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace,
lol, what is that ? Sorry to say this, but you cannot get rid of the fact that Allah says Earth is the abode for living and dead. Therein shall we live and die. What kind of verse did you come up with? Really? .. Path of hell is what people follow ON Earth. Once they die, they WILL abide in hell. Point is, no matter what ‘path’ you follow. You are to live on Earth. You have to ‘die’ to get to heaven or hell. Verse is pretty self explanatory. I dont see how you can disprove 7:25 by coming up with this verse.

Miracles mentioned in Quran did indeed occur. What surprises me is that you are holding a belief to which Allah has said NO HE DOES NOT DO THAT. Despite him telling you he does not do that and will not do it, you insist that since we believe in miracles, such a thing will happen. Your reasoning of if such and such CAN happen, so can this is flawed and absurd. You know very well the belief of someone going to heaven is not supported by Quran and yet you insist of believing in it as a miracle. This is exactly what I mean when i say not to reject Quranic verses just for the mere purpose of satisfying your belief.

6-35 And if their aversion is grievous to thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven, and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had Allah enforced His will, He could surely have brought them together into the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge

17-93 ‘Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.’

Allah does not change his sunnah. By this I also mean that His sunnah within the Quran is unchangeable as well. Laws are told in Quran and exceptions are also told in Quran. Law of humans living on Earth alone is told in Quran, and no verse which shows an exception can be seen in Quran. Allah was well aware of what he was revealing to Muhammad PBUH. Allah did not nauzubillah forget to add exception if there indeed was any.

Frankly, even if i answer this, its not going to help. The real question that should be tackled is that why should we name an incident a ‘miracle’ when Allah says he will not do it.. and we find no such exception in this regard at all , that a person goes to heaven alive and come back alive, without taking into consideration anything. If you like to give me a single answer about the incident being ‘miracle’ then that is your own understanding and not from Quran.

Miracles were understood the wrong way because it challenged the attributes Allah alone has. What is shirk? Shirk is not only associating partners to Allah but also saying that such and such attributes which are only found in Allah can ALSO be found in this ONE man. You have Isa a.s as an example. Allah does not eat to stay alive… all humans need food to stay alive BUT Jesus. Allah alone is the bringer of death and life… No other human can or had done that BUT Jesus. Allah has no beginning no ending.. all humans have beginning and ending, but Jesus is still alive for 2012 years and who knows how long hes going to be staying alive…and many more of the attributes of Allah which you associate not with any other human being but Jesus A.S alone.. It is an issue of shirk.. keep away from it. No miracle is big enough for a person to have attributes that ONLY God is limited to.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ additionally in the verse about Isa (as) ... Allah (SWT) is talking about the mother of Isa (AS) ... Showing another thing that Isa (AS) had a mother ... This is another example of why Isa (AS) is not Divine ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

5:75 >> If Allah is saying that Messiah was just a messengers..messengers like him have passed away. What does that mean? Because He a.s is a messenger, all others passed away BUT him

OR

He a.s was just a messenger. He a.s passed away just like any other messenger.

I gave this example before.. Here it is again.

Harry is a human. Humans like him do tend to make mistake

Does it mean all humans tend to make mistakes BUT Harry OR Harry is a human.. Harry makes mistakes like other humans do. ? The analogy is in complete accordance to how the verse is presented in quran. Isa a.s was only a messengers. Messengers like him has passed away. Does that mean he did not ? Humans make mistake and so did Harry :)

Now that was just one part of the verse.. lets see what else Allah says regarding Jesus a.s in that verse.

" *They both used to eat food "
*
2 words needs to be kept into consideration. 1) BOTH 2) USED TO

If Jesus a.s is alive, then Mary a.s should be alive as well.

If they 'both' 'used to' eat food.. it needs not to be said that they no longer eats food. From this, we can have 2 conclusions. 1) Since he does NOT eat, he a.s is dead. For a person to remain alive, food is a must.

25:20-And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you then be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

Another conclusion is, that Jesus a.s cannot be considered God.. or anything like God.. for God eats not.. and messengers do. But at this point in time, he is NOT eating food and is still alive. This violates verse 7:25 ( for being living outside the Earth and still alive ), verse 5:75 (used to eat food, but hes not eating food and is still alive). It does add the possibility of doing shirk as well.. Only allah does not require food to remain, but we have Jesus a.s who is also alive but does not eat. Avoid every little possibility of shirk.. for this is the greatest sin of all.

[QUOTE]
Surah 5 Verse 75

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

Surah 3 Verse 144
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Lets examine this verse as well. See how beautiful and clear this verse is. Allah first says that messengers before him HAVE 'passed away'. Now right after the mentioning of passing away, Allah describe the way of passing away by saying 'so if he was to die or be killed'. Allah did not repeat the same word of passing away again. He instead says 'if he was to die or be killed' in relation to passing away. What should a sane person conclude again? Messengers before him passed away, some by being killed, others by dying.

[QUOTE]
Now in the case of Muhammad (SAW) to demonstrate that he (SAW) was a messenger ... Allah (SWT) refers to others being killed ... or dieing ... and then applies this example on RasoolAllah (SAW) showing that this will happen in the future to him (SAW). Future because wahi was still being sent to him (SAW).

BUT in the case of Isa (AS) ... Allah (SWT) uses another example to show that he (AS) is a messenger and not Divine ... Allah (SWT) uses eating as the example to show that Isa (AS) is only a messenger and not Divine ...

If Isa (AS) had died then Allah (SWT) would surely use the same argument that was used for Muhammad (SAW) ... that "He has caused him (Isa (AS)) to die" ... but Allah (SWT) is indeed Most Wise ... This was the perfect place to see in the Qur'an if Isa (AS) has died - but no ... we see another example being used to demonstrate his mortality as a messenger ... the fact that he ate food ...
[/QUOTE]

In case of Muhammad s.a.w, Allah refers to messengers before him passing away, passing away in 2 ways.. dead or killed... if the same happens to Muhammad PBUH, we are told not to turn our backs on Him.

In case of Isa a.s, messengers like him passed away, and Jesus a.s was a messengers like them as well who passed away. Him and his mother used to eat. They no longer eats. Hence dead.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Mr.Popat … :nono:

Here are you claims in this small section of your response … You throw your balls of falsehood hoping that I’ll miss one …

A) You say I can’t get rid of the fact that Allah says Earth is the abode for living and dead …
Actually you have a bad memory … I did show you that this verse was relating to 4 individuals who would live and die on this Earth … I showed you that this verse has exception in it. And lastly I have never attempted to disprove the truth of this verse, but to show you that it is not an absolute verse meant for absolutely every situation … I did this by qualifying it against other verses and with the Arabic language.

B) You ask me what verse I came up with … I directly answered your idea (not from the Quran but from your mind) that this Earth is ONLY place where humans can live … I showed you that is a false notion … People can, will and do live in heaven … And they can and will live in Jahannum.

C) There is not a single verse that we have talked about so far that mandates death before we get to see heaven or Auzdubillah hell … We are talking about norms … But then you are trying to limit the ways of Allah to norms … That He will not make miracles … Not even for prophets.

D) You said that I can’t disprove 7:25 … Astaghfirullah … Does it look like that I am trying to disprove the Holy Book? I’m merely showing up your flimsy understanding … And your ever erroneous statements …just go back and read your statements … It was you who said that “humans can ONLY live on Earth” what a foolish statement to make and then say that I am trying to disprove the verse …

The thing I am doing is showing up the problems in our understanding and how to satisfy the basic tenets … You end up bending or even breaking many others.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

My belief is that Isa (AS) was taken up to Him ... You say that Allah (SWT) says NO HE DOES NOT DO THAT ... Where? Kindly show me ...

That verse you have given ... Which words in Arabic translate into "thou canst do so" ?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I am quoting Quran – not from fairytales!

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' 5:110]

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no comment on this mr popat?