Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

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Isa (AS) was taken “out” of this world that is all we need to know and understand … Allah (SWT) is referred to as being “up” in symbolical language because “up” denotes Majesty … hence we say Isa (AS) was taken up to Him …

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

No. Up means someone superior to us. Up does not mean hes up there.

Isa(a.s) was taken 'out'.. but he is believed to be with God. Muhammad PBUH also went to see God and saw him beyond a certain point. We cannot neglect these 2 instances and conclude any of the concept of where God is or may be. Where is that 'up' is the question in hand.

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Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?

Peace Mr. Popat

Well we can view certain situations with different mindsets … we know that when we view the references of Isa (AS) ascending we must view them in reference to the heavens above … we get this from hadith that support this view and eye witness accounts from previous scripture. Hence in this case “Allah taking up to Himself” has to be taken with reference to the idea that “Allah (SWT) is over the Arsh” … In other circumstances we would have to use the other idea …

Here read this reference from the Jewish encyclopedia:

ELIJAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The vision in which God revealed Himself to Elijah gave him at the same time a picture of the destinies of man, who has to pass through “four worlds.” This world was shown to the prophet in the form of the wind, since it disappears as the wind; storm (

) is the day of death, before which man trembles (

); fire is the judgment in Gehenna, and the stillness is the last day (Tan., Peḳude, p. 128, Vienna ed.). Three years after this vision (Seder 'Olam R. xvii.) Elijah was “translated.” Concerning the place to which Elijah was transferred, opinions differ among Jews and Christians, but the old view was that Elijah was received among the heavenly inhabitants, where he records the deeds of men (Ḳid. 70; Ber. R. xxxiv. 8), a task which according to the apocalyptic literature is entrusted to Enoch. But as early as the middle of the second century, when the notion of translation to heaven was abused by Christian theologians, the assertion was made that Elijah never entered into heaven proper (Suk. 5a; compare also Ratner on Seder 'Olam R. xvii.); in later literature paradise is generally designated as the abode of Elijah (compare Pirḳe R. El. xvi.), but since the location of paradise is itself uncertain, the last two statements may be identical.

Notice how the Jews use a much more suitable word than “travelled to the heaven” - they use the term “translated” as though the “nature of the body” changes to become suitable for heavenly presence … Something like this should be understood when we talk about the “Ascension” of Isa (AS) …

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Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?

Peace
Sorry to be replying late.

We as Muslims should have a firm belief of Quran being the final word of Allah and that nothing in it contradicts anything else in Quran. Afterall, its the word of Allah.. and Allah’s book does not hold any contradiction. We have in this book verses which are muhkamaat and verses which are mutashabihaat. Our job must be to translate the verses which are mutashabihaat in accordance to the verses which are muhkamaat. Muhkam verses of Quran are known as the mother of Quran. Whatever translation we make must not contradict any muhkam verse of Quran. If it does, then as Muslim, we must reconcile the verses and provide the translation thereafter.

Allah says.. 2:107 Dost thou not know that the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs to Allah alone? And there is no protector or helper for you beside Allah.
3:189 And to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and Allah has power over all things

Now, these are examples of muhkam verses. Verses concerning him sitting over the Arsh is mutashabi verse.. meaning, it needs to be reconciled with the verses such that it does not create contradiction within Quran. Arsh is not any physical place. Arsh denotes majesty and power and His kingdom. A king sits on a throne to tell everyone that he is the king. Allah on the other hand uses the same example. Now, if we say arsh defines his majesty and His superiority, then this way we do not contradict any verse of Quran.

Isa(a.s)'s case, He was alive and was taken to an unspecified direction where Allah seems to be present. It seems Allah was not where Isa(as) was being crucified. What need was there to take Him up physically alive? If we think Allah was over the arsh the time Isa(a.s) was being crucified.. it means Allah had to come down to take him up to himself, leaving the throne empty.. which again is not possible. (hence i said above, arsh is not a physical place).. If you take Arsh to be physical then either one of the place must have been empty of the presence of Allah.. at the time Isa a.s was being crucified. Earth or the Arsh.

You said that you get this belief which is supported by hadith. Please show me a hadith or even a verse from Quran stating Isa a.s’s physical ascension .. but again, my point of bringing Isa a.s’s case here is not to argue about his ascension or not.. I mentioned the instance of Mairaaj as well. What we’re trying to see is where Allah is. Please do share hadith which support your view. I’ve shows you many ahadith and verses of Qur’an negating your belief. If you insist of still following them to show respect your ancestors, then carry on.

I do not understand what was your intention of asking me to read the jewish encyclopedia.. as if our deen was not complete enough.
But anway, i’ll finish off by saying that Allah says.. 6:103 : Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware

If Allah was at one specific place, our eyes could see him. If he had any shape, our eyes could see him. But He is neither at one specific place, nor is He of any shape. He reaches the eyes, which again shows his majesty. If the eyes were able to reach him, it would imply that he is at the place where we saw Him through our eyes. Such is the way of Allah. He explains his verses repeatedly in different manner so we understand. Such is His glory!

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace the first part of your post is you just saying back to me what I have always said to you ...
The verses you gave have no bearing on this subject.
Regarding the account of Isa (AS) you are trying to look too critically imposing a literal understanding one that we do not even share ... Isa (AS) according to the belief of the Muslims was saved from crucifixion ... he (AS) is waiting to return. Whatever the dynamics of where he is at this moment in time can be viewed in many different ways that are both in fitting with contemporary understanding and totally in sync with the aqeedah of Muslims.

Being taken up to Allah (SWT) means being taken away from this world to another abode which is in the ghaib. We are obliged by tradition to attribute a direction to this occurrence, however that direction does not bear on our belief regarding Allah (SWT). Rather it demonstrate the chosen method by which Isa (AS) was taken.

Asking you to read the Jewish works was so you can get an idea that the concepts I am talking about are already established. In translation there may be cases where they are using more suitable terminology.

You keep hampering on about Allah (SWT) being in a specific place ... neither have I made such an assertion nor have I said that He is everywhere. To say He is either everywhere or somewhere is confining Him to direction. There are other problems associated to saying Allah (SWT) is everywhere. And that is when we consider the concept of Oneness. Allah (SWT) cannot be everywhere in the literal sense for that is the pathway to pantheism. You seem to be trying to use the argument of Allah (SWT) to apply to Isa (AS) ... but you are pulling at straws ... There is nothing like Allah (SWT).

However when we refer to the movement of people there is no reason why they cannot taken literally at least in the worldly frame of reference.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Aqeedah of Muslims derived from what ? My humble question to you is not to keep hampering same thing over and over. I drew your attention to 2 instances in which 2 human beings (being prophets) travelled from point A to point B to see their Lord. Both events according to the same aqaaid of Muslims were of physical nature. How can you say at one place Allah say one thing, and at another he forgets what he says (nauzubillah) and say something else that totally negates what He said earlier. It is like you're saying Qur'an has contradictions. If Qur'an is without any contradictions, then as a Muslim, watever we think is contradictory, we should reconcile it and present it after.

You're forgetting Muhammad PBUH's physical ascension to heavens where he met Lord. My humble question is.. doesnt matter which instance you take to explain yourself.. i'm asking.. why would one not think that he is at one specific place when we have in front of us 2 people who 'went' to meet Lord ?

The aqaaid should be synchronized. You cannot hold 2 totally different views at the same time. Whatever your assumption is about where Isa a.s must be are all your assumptions which again greatly violate the fundamentals of Quran. You can assume whatever you like.. but thats your assumption. Why make that assumption islamic ?

[QUOTE]
Being taken up to Allah (SWT) means being taken away from this world to another abode which is in the ghaib. We are obliged by tradition to attribute a direction to this occurrence, however that direction does not bear on our belief regarding Allah (SWT). Rather it demonstrate the chosen method by which Isa (AS) was taken.
[/QUOTE]

Again, i dont want to start a debate about where Isa a.s is. Taken from one world to another is only possible in 2 cases...death and sleep. No other possible way. But lets just leave that aside for a minute. Are you saying when Isa a.s was taken up.. at that time, allah's arsh was empty ? (given that you think arsh to be a place where he sits). If he was over the arsh too , and was also where isa a.s was, then how am I wrong to say he is infact everywhere?

[QUOTE]
Asking you to read the Jewish works was so you can get an idea that the concepts I am talking about are already established. In translation there may be cases where they are using more suitable terminology.

You keep hampering on about Allah (SWT) being in a specific place ... neither have I made such an assertion nor have I said that He is everywhere. To say He is either everywhere or somewhere is confining Him to direction. There are other problems associated to saying Allah (SWT) is everywhere. And that is when we consider the concept of Oneness. Allah (SWT) cannot be everywhere in the literal sense for that is the pathway to pantheism. You seem to be trying to use the argument of Allah (SWT) to apply to Isa (AS) ... but you are pulling at straws ... There is nothing like Allah (SWT).

However when we refer to the movement of people there is no reason why they cannot taken literally at least in the worldly frame of reference.
[/QUOTE]

So many of concepts existed way before Islam too. They were wrong. Hence we needed Islam. Whatever is in sync with Islam from other religion are right...again, whatever contradicts Quran is false.

I said it earlier too that to me when i say hes everywhere, i mean his signs are present everywhere.. therefore its HIM who is everywhere. Do u think theres any place anywhere lacking his presence ?

Either I'm not getting what you're trying to say or there's some serious communication gap.. let me try one more time.
a physical body which is limited to a direction...(not just in the event of Isa a.s but also holy prophet s.a.w) has moved towards God who is limited to no direction. What is it that i'm not getting ? you said, this event can be viewed in many ways... but these ways whatever u tried to explain are not islamic. A person goes to ghaib.. he's alive but hes not here etc are all baseless.. Allah says.. 7:25 : He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth**.’ **This verse referring to Earth. We're not talking about death for now.. in this verse, it says to LIVE you must be on Earth. In other words, theres no life for a human being outside of Earth. One can only live outside by taking the atmospheric temperature of the earth, by taking with them oxygen cylinders etc.. there's no concept of a person being ghaib and sent back to the world again.

No aqeedah holds more value than what Qur'an says. Before making anything part of your aqeeda,just once see if its not contradicting with other verses of Quran. Every aqeedah is made from Qur'an. You explain this with Quranic reference and if you'd like to support it with ahadith, please do so. I'm eagerly waiting.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace Mr.Popat

The basis for the majority of your substantiation is similar to a Mu'tazilis way of thinking and discourse. In other words you think you are referring to the Quran, but in fact you are appealing to your own reasoning and placing greater value in that.

There are plenty of Hadith that substantiate the views that are reflected in the aqeedah of the AhlusSunnah ... I will refer to Al fiqh al Akbar and aqeedah at-Tahawiyya for my fuller response, inshaAllah ...

To summarise what I am going to say is that I have not made up my beliefs like you claim I have ...

These are established beliefs:

Isa(as) was taken to the skies as part of his ascension ... He does not reside in the world now, but will reside in the world towards the End Times.

Muhammad (SAW) 's mi'raj was a reality and did occur that he (SAW) went to Jerusalem and Jannah, which in our frame of reference took merely a second.

Do these narrations mean that Allah is in Jannah? .... No ... That is an assertion you are making. Becoming close to Allah (SWT) is a reference to piety, and being distant from Allah is a reference to our acknowledgement that we are insignificant.

However this does not preclude that going upwards physically cannot be a means to symbolise the transition from the Earthly existence to another one. Rather in both cases of Isa (as) there were eye witnesses who saw him (AS) going upwards physically.

Also ... The reference of going to Jerusalem in one night is Qur'anic, but going to the heavens is hadithic and if we can accept that Muhammad (SAW) can go to Jerusalem in less than a night by the Will of Allah then why not anywhere in the universe?

I'll provide you my references but I can tell you for a fact that Muslims do not believe that Allah is everywhere, nor somewhere, and that going to heaven for Isa (AS) and Muhammad(SAW) are actual references and not metaphoric, but by going to heaven physically or in a manner that is suitable is symbolically the same as going to Allah (SWT) ...

i.e. by being taken to the heavens they were honoured by Allah SWT.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace,
No. As far as I know, I'm infact referring to Qur'an. You cannot call anything that I'm saying as my reasoning alone.
Established beliefs based on what ? This is what Quran says..
*7:25 : He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.
*Earth it is wherein humans shall live. Lets talk about life for now.. In order for a person to remain alive, he must be on Earth. Lets also not talk about the longevity of life. To live, we must be present on Earth. There is no life outside of it.

By calling these 2 instances physical, you only put your own other beliefs in jeopardy. You know very well that I do not consider Isa a.s to be taken up to heavens bodily alive, nor do i consider the event of Miraaj to be physical. But, i'm asking questions keeping in mind your beliefs. Question is not about how Muhammad PBUH went and how long it took him.. my point is, if we say Muhammad pbuh's journey was physical, then he s.a.w. has physically moved his physical body from point A and moved towards point B physically to meet his Lord. I'm not questioning which prophets he met, what did Moses a.s say to him, also not talking about the whole world came infront of Muhammad pbuh in a form of an old woman ( the whole event ).. thats not the question. Did he s.a.w move from point A to point B to meet his Lord or not?

[QUOTE]
Do these narrations mean that Allah is in Jannah? .... No ... That is an assertion you are making. Becoming close to Allah (SWT) is a reference to piety, and being distant from Allah is a reference to our acknowledgement that we are insignificant.

However this does not preclude that going upwards physically cannot be a means to symbolise the transition from the Earthly existence to another one. Rather in both cases of Isa (as) there were eye witnesses who saw him (AS) going upwards physically.

Also ... The reference of going to Jerusalem in one night is Qur'anic, but going to the heavens is hadithic and if we can accept that Muhammad (SAW) can go to Jerusalem in less than a night by the Will of Allah then why not anywhere in the universe?

I'll provide you my references but I can tell you for a fact that Muslims do not believe that Allah is everywhere, nor somewhere, and that going to heaven for Isa (AS) and Muhammad(SAW) are actual references and not metaphoric, but by going to heaven physically or in a manner that is suitable is symbolically the same as going to Allah (SWT) ...

i.e. by being taken to the heavens they were honoured by Allah SWT.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not denying that He was not shown heaven..neither am i denying the event of Isra. Jersusalem in one night and thats where he led prayers to prophets.. ok.. so I guess thats not where allah was... He had to go from jerusalem to heavens to meet Allah physically. Hmm, strange but alright.

No. Allah is not just in jannah as you rightly said. Becoming close to Allah has always been spiritual and not physical.
Allah does not raise anyone upwards !! if its upwards, then theres got to be one place at which a person stops.. then you're limiting Allah to be at one specific place. Again, you need to understand what belief you're holding and why are you holding it? Is there any place anywhere, where Allah's presence is not there ?

Provide me references but make sure none of your reference contradict any verse of Quran. You must look at the whole picture and draw your conclusion and not pick and choose and forget about whatever else Allah says... In my case, I reconcile verses of Quran and come up with a belief. Thats what a true Muslim should do.

By being taken to heavens is an honor by Allah.. but he only does that when a person dies. We are told to believe in the unseen. Heaven,hell,day of judgement, angels, jinns are all the beliefs of Islam which are to be believed firmly to be following Islam. If a person is shown heaven today physically.. lots of problem and question arise which I frankly am not in the mood to start on. But lets just stay on topic..

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace Mr.Popat

It appears we going to have to take this very slowly ... So in the verse you have quoted does it state that only therein shall you live? Only therein shall you die and only therefrom you shall be brought forth?

Do you know if anyone has died in space?

The answer to this question should tell you that this verse cannot be taken as a limitation, the grammar does not allow it ... It is a generality being stated here. Here although you are using the Qur'an to state this is the pattern of life, you indeed are putting your intelligence to the verse by making it an absolute rule when indeed the Arabic doesn't specify it in a way that is absolute.

There are various Tawkeed in Arabic (emphasis) markers and different ones specify the level of exception that exists.

Accept this then we will move on ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Ok Mr.Popat

We'll play it your way ...

7:25 : He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.

Muslims do believe that Isa (AS) has lived in the Earth
Muslims do believe that Isa (AS) will die in the Earth
Muslims do believe that Isa (AS) shall be resurrected

So how does this verse prove that Isa (AS) has not been taken and will not descend?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^And what do you have to say about Surah Al Imran Verse 144?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I told you, i'm not interested in the whole story again.
Qur'an says 'therein shall you live'. Lets not worry about 2 other points you raised.

'Therein shall you live' .. this referring to Earth. If Isa a.s is alive, he MUST be on Earth. Anywhere outside of this Earth would mean he's dead.

Now, if you have something to say to clear my translation of this verse, please do so.

Here are more translations to the same 7:25 verse.

[QUOTE]

Sahih International
He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."

Muhsin Khan
He said: "Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out (i.e.resurrected)."

Pickthall
He said: There shall ye live, and there shall ye die, and thence shall ye be brought forth.

Yusuf Ali
He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

Shakir
He (also) said: Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and from it shall you be raised.

[/QUOTE]

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Where are you getting this “If Isa (AS) is alive then he MUST be on Earth” that is not in the verse …

The verse “Therein shall you live”

Muslims believe Isa (AS) has lived on Earth and we believe he will do so again … Are you saying everyone MUST live on Earth and that no one can ever live elsewhere? Are you denying space travel?

As of 2008, the man with the longest cumulative time in space is Sergei K. Krikalev, who has spent 803 days, 9 hours and 39 minutes, or 2.2 years, in space.[SUP][11]](Astronaut - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][12]](Astronaut - Wikipedia)[/SUP]Peggy A. Whitson holds the record for the most time in space by a woman, 377 days.[SUP][13]](Astronaut - Wikipedia)

[/SUP]Astronaut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
**
2.2 years in space !!! … Mr.Popat you must revise your interpretation of that verse … it cannot mean that people can only live on Earth … or else you have a big problem here …**

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat,

You are here 'caught' red handed!!!!

Plz stop quoting reference of other verses and try to learn/seek true path.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Also Mr.Popat

How does 7:25 prove that Isa (AS) has not been taken and will descend later?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace psyah,

plz join me in other thread I'm looking forward your comments there.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Zapatista

In this verse it talks about if RasoolAllah would be killed (kutila) or if he were to die (mawt) … but before this it states in Arabic … (qad khalat) - Notice how this phrase could have just stated (mawt) as well, but it didn’t here is why …

**“’Qad khalat’: means separation from their communities, either though death or ascension to the heavens. And what is meant by “they parted with them” (khalaw minhum) is that they were there sometimes in the past time (*fi b’adh al-zaman al-madhi).” (*Nazam al-Dorar fi Tanasib al-Ayat wal Saur vol.5 p.82 Da’ira al-Ma’rif al-Uthmania, Hyderabad, 1973)

****Meaning of “qad khalat” and Qur’an 3: 144 (part-2)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace psyah,

The same verse also describe two important points (1) will you turn back on your heels and (2) no person can ever die except by Allah's leave and at an appointed term.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Very clever of you to be telling me which person lived in space for how long.. I said it before that it is not me whose saying that but rather GOD who says no one can live outside of Earth.

It seems you just dont want to admit. It’s ok i understand your frustration.
It also seems that you read whatever is of interest to you and ignore everything else that i say. I do not understand what is so hard in this
7:25 says.. ‘therein shall you live’. On one hand you say isa a.s is a human being and this rule is for all human being with no exception.

I said earlier, in order to live outside of this earth, for a humanbeing, he must take with him all the earthly temperature.. oxygen cylinders, food, water etc in order to live… or else you die for the lack of oxygen.

He a.s has “LIVED” on Earth.. He a.s is NO MORE ON THIS EARTH. I’m sure you know what i’m saying but I guess purposely trying to pretend you dont understand. If the verse is for human beings in general, then Isa a.s came under the same verse. My question is simple.. If He a.s is no longer on EARTH at THIS TIME, then he must be dead. For Him to be alive, he a.s must be present on Earth as is said in the verse " therein shall you live".. surely you believe that he a.s will come back again here and die here and will be raised again from Earth.. but if He is not even alive, how would he even come? Thats the question… first reconcile the verse with the ascension of Isa a.s.

This verse proves that a human being, even if he is a prophet cannot live outside of Earth.
This verse is not in response to sayin that he went to heavens or not.. but rather pointing at you that how can He be living and not be on earth at the same time? where will this verse go? You tell me I pick and choose, but I say you do, because you do not want to see anything else that disturbs your beliefs.

I guess you’ll have to adjust your belief based on this verse. And if not, then you must present a reasonable justification answering on one hand Allah says Earth is the only abode where you will live, and on other hand you’re showing me how someone CAN live outside of Earth. Thereby, saying nauzubillah Quran is wrong in that.

Did this person live in space without oxygen? without food? without water? It’s so simple but u choose not to understand. You cannot and i repeat cannot live outside of this Earth as a HUMAN BEING! My question is.. if a human being cannot live outisde of Earth as stated in verse ‘therein shall you live’, there wheresoever Isa(as) is, he must NOT be alive.

Please read what im saying first before you catch me red handed. I’m not purposely saying something which i know is wrong. I’m telling you which I believe is right unless you show me otherwise.

Theres no point talking about Him coming back here and dying and being raised from here.. surely, you believe that.. but He will do all that only if He is alive.

All this about him coming back on earth and dying and being raised from earth is all about future.. and it is ok to believe all this but first prove that he is alive provided that he’s not on earth and still alive. You are rejecting verse not my understanding of anything. Kindly look into it :slight_smile:

ps: i am a seeker of truth. Show me where I’m wrong and ill adjust my beliefs. Please answer only if you have an answer to my post and kindly also please dont think that im misquoting verses. Thank you.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

I’m not going to let this go …

You are saying

“Therein (Earth) you shall live” means that “no one can live outside Earth” ??? This is your interpretation … you see you initially said you are taking references from the Qur’an only, but in reality you are still putting your own thoughts on them.

I told you this already there is no tawkeed in this verse to make it “binding” … The translation is not “you can ONLY live on Earth” - It is a general rule not an absolute one …

It is really strange that you feel the Qur’an says that “no one can live outside the Earth” yet from the Ahmadiyya website we see that you readily promote extra-terrestrial life and say that the Qur’an predicts a future encounter with alien life forms … why are you contradicting the website, perhaps your common sense is better than the people who made your website?

The Quran and Extraterrestrial Life

For more explicit PROOF that people can live outside the Earth … see this:

O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ].

Surat Ar-Rahman [55:33] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

In Surah Rahman - this verse states that people can pass by authority from Allah (SWT) … i.e. Allah (SWT) makes exceptions for some … in other words Isa (AS) can be an exception in one manner of speaking as were those astronauts exceptions in another manner of speaking …

Your interpretation denies Isa (AS) to live outside Earth, but also everyone else and it contradicts your own website …