Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Agreed with above but you have left out the hadith and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) I suspect that it was calculated/ intentional move on your part and not an oversight.
muhkamat ayat are very clear whereas mutashabihat ayat are not; so they can have many meanings. If meanings are assigned to them, this must be done in a manner that complies with the language and the Religion, and does not contradict the ayat that are muhkamat. We all agree that the ayat of the Qur'an do not contradict one another. Likewise, the ahadith of the Prophet, (saw) do not contradict one another, and they do not contradict the ayat of the Qur'an.
So the mutashabihat ayats can ONLY understood in line with hadith and not that the Pseudo-Rationality of some later days wannabes/pretenders!
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. Al Imran: ayah 7
Clearly the Quran has warned that only those who have perversity in their hearts will use their OWN RATIONAILTY to interpret these ayats to fit their nefarious agendas.
We have enough hadith material to debunk the claims of Jamaat Ahmadiya and its founder.
Do not question what was or what was not in my heart. Sure, put hadith in my reply as well. Ahadith are important. We do not 'deny' hadith. Dont say that our understanding of ahadith means 'denying' ahadith. There is difference in that.
We interpret mutashabihat verses in accordance to the mohkam verses of Quran. It is not me, but rather you, who make their own interpretation of verses without taking into account what mohkam verses has to say about certain topic.. I gave you an example and that's what im still stuck at.. >>Qur'an says that Earth is an abode for mankind. Now this is clear. Mutashabihaat verses as you said could have many meanings.. but they cannot go against the very fundamental beliefs of Quran. Again, see whose heart has perversity. I use rationality because it is required for me to interpret it according to mohkam verses of Quran. We are not taking out different meaning. We are merely telling you that this is what Quran says.. this is what this mutashbihaat verses should be interpreted like, nothing against it.
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That’s the reason you left out the hadith of the Prophet (saw) in interpreting the mutashabihat ayats !!!!!
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Sorry!. Include hadith too. See if it helps you strengthening your point of view :) But keep in mind, mutashabihaat verses should FIRST be interpreted in accordance to mohkam verses, then to understand them better, we look in ahadith.
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You lie when say that “, Ijma of as-sahabah.. the first ijmah as we know it was that all prophets before Muhammad pbuh had died”. Please show me where have you got these from that what you claim.
It is ijmah of the Sahabah is what the Orthodox Muslims believe in that Prophet Isa (as) was taken up ALIVE and will descend when Allah (swt) wills in Damascus – certainly not in Punjab.
Yes Logic and Rationality is used in Ijtihad and Qiyas only after having referred first to the Quran, then ahadith and Ijmah as-Sahabah. It is poor forth in line.
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No. I do not lie. I could be wrong. But i m not lying. Theres a difference. If i'm knowingly hiding the truth, then im lying. If I'm telling you what I believe is right from all my heart, even if im wrong, then i could be wrong, but not a liar. Hope you keep that in mind the next time you call me wrong or liar.
This is what your problem is. Whatever goes against your belief, you question it knowing that it is a well established facts and many many of your scholars have agreed upon it. But no, just to go against us, you even go as far as questioning your own beliefs. Ok well, to remind you of that instance when prophet muhammad pbuh died, it was abu bakr r.a who came out to the rest of sahabah and said the verse in which it says that verily prophets before him have passed away, so if he s.a.w pass away, will you turn your heels back on Him? We find that all sahabah knew about this verse and knew the meaning of verse to mean that all prophets died and muhammad pbuh died the same way. Read upon that instance and let me know if there was even a ONE sahabah who said no, wait! if jesus is still alive, so can Muhammd pbuh, or anything like that and i'll for sure look into that.
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Believe me brother psyah is doing very well he doesn’t need my help. I admire his endurance and tenacity in addressing all you have ‘thrown’ to him. And your doggedness in refusing to face the facts is in also in notice.
I don’t know what’s your problem with 'there are exceptions'!
It is Allah’s Sunnah to have exceptions in His creation.
Let me give you some examples:
All mammals are land based but we have Whale living solely in water.
All mammals walk on the land but we have bats that fly
All mammals give live birth but we have following mammals that lay eggs - platypus short-beaked echidna and long-beaked echidna.
Nearly all the plants (trees included) ‘feed’ via roots and the exception being the Carnivorous plants
Now in human terms let me give few examples which you won’t deny.
Human is born when male and female ‘meet’. Exception being:
Hz. Adam (as) Allah (swt)Willed him to be.
Hz. Huwaa (ra) was created from rib of Hz. Adam (as)
Hz. Isa (as) was born without the ‘agency’ of a father.
All the humans will taste death once – exception being those whom Hz. Isa (as) brought to life once they had tasted death with Allah (swt)’s Will – these people then tasted death at the appointed time. So they tasted death twice.
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I dont know what is so fascinating about psyah's response that you do not even feel the need to add on anything. All he does is make exceptions and says Allah can do everything. Sure he can, but he doesnt do what he himself have told that He will not do. I HAVE problem with you people making exceptions. Why should I not? Then you tell me we go after mutashabihaat verses? tell me who goes after them to fit their agendas? Certainly i'm not. Tell me any verse which goes against my belief of humans being able to live only on Earth? Creating exceptions means you my friend are the one who likes to fit your agenda because you just dont want to see the whole quran. One verse and tadaa!! that is the belief..because you have been told so!
Ok. Your exceptions were good :) How about you make exceptions in the verse which says 'therein shall you live, therein shall you die, and therein shall you be brought forth" 7:25. I tried my best to create exceptions which is why i wrote reply with exceptions in post #42. Kindly do look into it.
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Human children learn to speak well with authority when 6 or 7 years old – Hz. Isa (as) spoke well when he was only few hours old to defend honour of his blessed mother.
Allah says: "Indeed your Lord is the Doer of what He wills" [Sûrah Hûd: 107] and "(He is the) Doer of what He wills." [Sûrah al-Burûj: 16]
Keep the above ayahs in mind and tell me – Is it impossible for Allah (swt) to take a Human alive to heaven?
Keep in mind that Allah (swt) does make exceptions.
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Allah's laws are absolute. When he make laws, he does not break it for anyone!. Allah says that he is capable of doing 'what he wills'. We as humans are not. It is impossible for us to 'will' something and make it happen. In contrary, allah says when 'he wills' something, theres nothing stopping him. Allah also says that you will not see any change in his sunnah. There are many instances in which Allah refuted things he could have done for his messengers. i.e : make moses ummati of muhammadi shariya. >> answer was, no Muhammad pbuh is AFTER you and you are BEFORE him, however in heaven i'll join you all. Another was when disbelievers asked muhammad pbuh to bring down a book from heaven. Allah could have taken him to heavens and given him something to show to disbelievers. But no, Allah told muhammad pbuh to tell them that Allah is paak from this, meaning he does not break his laws. It does not need amendments and changes. What kind of logic do you give me, really!? If so and so can happen, why cant this happen? So and so happened because its in Quran... so and so cannot happen because Quran does not approve of it. As simple as that. Poor argument that this can also happen.. What i find rather funny is .. we have had stories of other religion of some of their saint or their leader going up to heavens or go in ghaib.. it has always been them going.. but how ironic is this that none has ever returned. Everyone goes, no one comes back!
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Understandably, Ahmadiyah need Hz. Isa (as) to be dead; then only someone else can ‘come’ in for him – That’s the main game plan. Dead Hz. Isa (as) serves Ahmadiyah philosophy to be legitimate.
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Sure. We dont need it. Quran and Allah announces it. You cannot take one verse, interpret it your own way and then close your eyes on the rest of Quran, and keep creating exceptions so that your interpretation of one verse remains intact. Whose doing pick and choose? I'm offering the entire Quran whereas you give me one verse telling me this is the proof of His ascension?
Alhamdulillah, we speak with evidence. You can keep trying to refuse these evidences, but you're not refusing us, but rather refusing Allah's words. You do NOT have to be an ahmadi once you accept isa a.s death. You do not. But just to have enmity against jamaat e ahmadiyya, you are closing your eyes on evidences. If I keep giving you one verse after another, I assure you, you will have a very hard time not to believe in them. It is just one verse that i'm arguing about.. i got plenty plenty more.. with lots and lots of questions with every single verse..all questions based on Quran. I assure you, either you will keep bringing exception in it, or your last answer will be Allah can do everything. Alhamdulillah, like allah says, truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Surely falsehood vanish away fast.
Again, 'therein shall you live'. Make exception in it and tell me what you can come up with.
It was amazing that he went that far. What an effort. Looks like you are claiming a victory??? 
