Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
601

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) was a righteous Prophet and he was duty bound not only to deliver the message (in the shape of Quran) but explain it too.

So it is imperative that we have to refer to The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) to understand the Blessed Quran in the light of his teachings.
*
And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder, so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them.*** (An-Nahl 16:44)**

And for those who follow their rationality or that of a FALSE PROPHET:
*
And whoever acts hostilely to the Messenger after that guidance has become manifest to him, and follows other than the way of the believers, We will turn him to that to which he has (himself) turned and make him enter hell; and it is an evil resort.* ** 4:115]**

The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) has also stated the following:

"My ummah will never agree upon an error"Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (4:2167), ibn Majah (2:1303), Abu Dawood, and others with slightly different wordings.

This can be classified as:

1) ijma al-ummah - a whole community consensus.
2) ijma al-aimmah - a consensus by religious authorities.

There is overwhelming consensus among the Muslims that:

1) Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) was not crucified and Allah Almighty raise him up to Himself
2) Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) at present is alive and in Heaven
3) Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will descent to Earth in Damascus when Allah Almighty Wills it.
4) Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will fight Dajjal overcome him, will get married, have children and will die and be buried in Madinah next to the Blessed Prophet (saw).

Few narrations confirming the above:

Ascent of Isa Ibn Maryum

Ummul Momineen Safiyya Bint Huyayy (d. 52 AH)

It is narrated from Ummul Momineen Saffiya (RA) that when she visited Bait Al-Maqdis and finished prayers in Al-Aqsa Mosque she climbed up to Mt. Olives and prayed there as well and said: “this is the mountain from where Jesus (AS) was raised up to the heavens.”** (Al-Tasrih bima Tawatar fi Nuzul Al-Masih Hadith 74 cf. Tafsir Fath Al-Aziz Surah 95)
**
“...Recommended for later Muslim visitations... Mount of Olives identified as the place of ascension of Jesus to heaven: It was visited by the Prophet's wife, Safiyya...” (Studies In Early Islamic Tradition, Page 83 by Sulaymān Bashīr)

Ibn Abbas (RA) said, “When Allah intended to raise Jesus (AS) to the heavens, he went to his companions... and Jesus (AS) ascended to the heavens through an opening in the top of the house”. (Ibn Abi Hatim 4/431 Hadith 6266, Ibn Kathir 2/449. Ibn Kathir called it Sahih)

Abdullah Ibn Al-Mubarak (736/118 - 797/181 CE/AH)

Jesus addressed his followers the night he was raised to heaven, saying “Do not make your living from (teaching) the Book of God. If you refrain from doing so, God will seat you upon pulpits a single stone of which is better than the world and that is therin.” 'Abd Al-Jabbar said, “These are the seats mentioned by God in the Qur'an: upon a seat of truth with a mighty king'” Jesus was then raised to heaven.** (Al-Zuhd, Page 507 (no.1447))**

Hannad Ibn Al-Sariyy (d.857/243 CE/AH)
"The day that Jesus was raised to heaven, he left behind nothing but a woolen garment, a slingshot, and two sandals." (Kitab Al-Zuhd, no. 553. Cf. Ibn 'Asakir, Sirat, p.134, no. 122)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Isa Ibn Maryum In Heaven

Al-Hasan Al-Basri (642 CE - 729/110 CE/AH)

“I swear to God that Jesus (AS) is at this moment alive in God’s presence, and that everyone will believe in him when he returns.” With regard to the Holy Qur’an 4:159, he said: “God raised Jesus (AS) to His presence. He will send him before the Day of Judgment as a holder of rank. Good and bad, all will believe in him.” (Al-Suyuti, Durr al-Manthur, 2:284) He also made a similar comment regarding the Holy Qur’an 43:61, saying that the meaning of the verse was that Jesus (AS) would return to earth.** (Al-Suyuti, Durr al-Manthur, 2:220)**

“…Qurtbui reviews the various views and traditions already cited. He agrees with Hasan Al-Basri and Ibn Zayd that God raised Jesus up to heaven without causing him to die or to fall asleep.”** (The Qur’an and Its Interpreters: The House of Imrān, Page 173 by Mahmoud Ayoub)
**

Muhammad Ibn 'Alī Ibn Muhammad Ibn Al-Arabī (1165 CE - 1240 CE)

Ibn al-‘Arabi reported that even though more than a thousand years has passed since Jesus’ (pbuh) birth, he is alive in body and soul in God’s presence.** (Ibn al-‘Arabi, Fusus al-Hikam (Istanbul: 1287), 63; Baybal, Ibrahimi Dinlerde, 238-40.)
**
Thus according to Ibn Arabi, it was not Jesus or his substitute who suffered death on the cross, but a phanton image which God created expressly for that purpose… He continues: “…When Jesus was taken up to heaven, his disciples did not call anyone to God, but that he answered their call… It will, therefore, be necessary for him to descend once more to the earth in a physical form and follow the Muhammadan dispensation in order for him to attain to its station” (Ibn Arabi,I, pp.190-91)" (The Qur’an and Its Interpreters: The House of Imrān, Page 180/81 by Mahmoud Ayoub)

Ahmad Ibn Al-Amin Al-Shinqiti (1872 CE - 1913 CE)

Al-Shinqiti, a modern commentator, wrote: “Both the Qur’an and the generally accepted Sunnah are proofs that Jesus (pbuh) is at this moment alive, that he will descend in the End Times, and that his coming is regarded as one of the signs of the Day of Judgment.”** (Al-Shinqiti, Adwa’ Al Bayan fi Idah Al Qur’an bi Al Qur’an, 7:273; Baybal, Ibrahimi Dinlerde, 238**

**
Descent of Isa Ibn Maryum**
**
The Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) (570 - 632/11 CE/AH)**

Abu Hurairah (RA) said: Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said “What will be your condition when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you from the heavens?” ** (Baihaqi’s Asmaa wal Sifaat 2/432 Hadith 855)
**
Abu Hurairah (RA) said: “I heard Abul Qasim the Truthful and Trustworthy (i.e. Holy Prophet (SAW)) say: “Then Jesus son of Mary will descend from the heavens and lead the people.”” (Majma’ Al-Zawaid 7/349. Haithmi said, Bazzar has narrated it and all its narrators are those of the Sahih * except Ali bin Munzar and he is also trustworthy)

Ibn Abbas (RA) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “And near it will descend from the Heavens my brother Jesus son of Mary.” (Kanzul Ummal 14/619 Hadith 39726)

Th’labi and Zamakhshari mentioned the Hadith from Abu Hurairah (RA) that the Prophet (SAW) said; ''Isa will descend from the heavens.”** (Tafsir Qurtabi)**

“Tabari then mentions that, according to Hasan Al Basri, the Prophet said to the Jews, “Jesus did not die, and he will return to you before the Day of Resurrection.” (The Qur’an and Its Interpreters: The House of Imrān, Page 169 by Mahmoud Ayoub)

Muhammad Ibn Al-Hanafiyyah (15 - 81 AH)

Muhammad ibn 'Ali Abi Talib (also known as Ibn Hanafiyya, the son of Hazrat Ali (RA)), explained Qur’an 4:159 in these terms: “He will descend before the Day of Judgment. All Jews and Christians will believe in him.”** (Al-Suyuti, Durr al-Manthur, 2 :241.)**

Abd Allah Ibn Abbas (618 CE - 687 CE)

About the verse Qur’an 4:159: “This verse is proof that Jesus (AS), son of Mary, will appear… All of the People of the Book will believe in him before his death.” (Al-Hakim, Al-Mustadrak, 2:309.) He also said referring to the Holy Qur’an 43:61, “God indicates that Jesus (AS) will appear before the Day of Judgment.” (Khasmiri, al-Tasrih, 289-90) **
**
Imam Abū Hanīfah (699 CE - 767 CE)

“The emergence of the Dajjal and of Gog and Magog is a reality; the rising of the sun in the West is a reality; the descent of Jesus, upon whom be peace, from the heavens is a reality; and all the other signs of the Day of Resurrection, as contained in authentic traditions, are also established realities.”** (Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar, Page 20, 99) **

Abū Yūsuf Ya’qūb Ibn Ishāq al-Kindī (801 - 873 CE)

Al-Kindi also said: “…Jesus will descend at the time of the afternoon prayer. The world will be prosperous.” (The Muqaddimah: An Introduction To History, Volume 1, Page 192 by Ibn Khaldūn and Franz Rosenthal)
**
Imam Abu Ja’far Al-Tahawi (843/239 CE - 935/321 CE/AH)**

Regarded as one of the most important Egyptian Hanafi scholars of his time, opined that the return of Jesus (AS) is a major sign of the End Times and stated the need to believe in this truth. (Baybal, Ibrahimi Dinlerde, 238-40.)

**Muhammad Abu Mansur Al-Maturidi (853 CE - 944/333 CE/AH) **

While studying the hadith regarding Hazrat Isa (AS), stated that Hazrat Isa (AS) would return to earth and would make the Antichrist ineffective.** (Maturidi, Te’vilatü’l Kuran, vr. 239; Sami Baybal, Ibrahimi Dinlerde Mesih’in Dönüsü, Yediveren Kitap, July 2002, s. 238-240)**

Imām Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn al-Husayn al-Ājūrī (d.360 AH)

Al-Ajuri, regarded as one of the first experts on the Qur’an, stated that Hazrat Isa (AS) will return to Earth in the End Times, for which reason the report must be believed.** (Accuri, es-Seria, s. 380-382;Sami Baybal, Ibrahimi Dinlerde Mesih’in Dönüsü, Yediveren Kitap, July 2002, s. 238-240)**

Abū Muhammad 'Alī ibn Ahmad ibn Sa’īd ibn Hazm (994 CE - 1064 CE) died 456 AH

Ibn Hazm stated that the report that Hazrat Isa (AS) would return is reliable.** (Ibn Hazm, Ilmü’l Kelam, s. 30-32; Sami Baybal, Ibrahimi Dinlerde Mesih’in Dönüsü, Yediveren Kitap, July 2002, s. 238-240)**

Abū Hāmed Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Ghazālī (1058 CE - 1111/505 CE/AH)

"…then the Qu’ran would be erased from hearts and not a word of it would be remembered; and the people would return to the poetry, songs, and tales of the pre-Islamic period; then Anti-Chritst would go forth and Jesus, the blessings and peace of God upon him, would descend to kill him. The hour when all this occurs would be like the pregnant woman in travail, waiting for the moment of her delievery.** (The Secrets of Pilgrimage, Page 17 by Al-Ghazali)**

Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani (1372/773 - 1448/852 CE/AH)

“The Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus will come down and pray behind him.” (Fath al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362)

Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti (1445/849 CE - 1505/911 CE/AH)

Al-Suyuti reported that Jesus (pbuh) will come and rule with the law of Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace). (Al-Suyuti, Nuzul ‘Isa ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman (Suleymaniye Library), no. 1446/9.)

“As-Suyuti says Jerusalem is specially honoured by Moslems… It was at Jerusalem that the prophets sacrificed; that Jesus was born and spoke in the his cradle; and it was from Jerusalem that Jesus ascended to heaven; and it will be there that he will again descend."** (A Moslem Seeker After God, Page 115 by Samuel M. Zwemer)**

Abū Al-Hasan Alī Ibn Ismā’īl Al-Ash’arī (874/260 CE - 936/324 CE/AH)

In his book Maqalat al-Islamiyyin wa Ikhtilfa’ al-Musallin (The Discourses of the Proponents of Islam and the Differences among the Worshippers), Abu Al-Hasan Al-Ash’ari said: “It is a requirement to believe in these elements on which the people of the hadith and the people of the Sunnah are agreed: in God, angels, the books, the prophets, the revelations received from God, and in the words of the Prophet (may God bless him and grant him peace) that the Antichrist will appear and that Jesus (AS) will make him ineffective.” (Abu al-Hasan al-Ash‘ari, Maqalat al-Islamiyyin wa Ikhtilfa al-Musallin, 295.)

**Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum will perform Umra and Hajj - marry and have children - will die and be buried in Madinah next the blessed Prophet (saw)
**

Hanzalah al-Aslami reported to have heard Abu Huraira (ra) as narrating from Allah’s Apostle (saw):

By Him in Whose Hand is my life, Ibn Maryam (Jesus Christ) would certainly pronounce Talbiyah for Hajj or for Umrah or for both (simultaneously as a Qarin) in the valley of Rawha. (Sahih Muslim, Book 7, No. 2877)

Allah’s Apostle (ra) foretold: After his descent on earth, Hadhrat Isa (as) will marry. He will have children, and he will remain on earth 19 years after marriage. He will pass away and Muslims will perform his Janaza Salaat (funeral prayers) and bury him next to Rasulullah (saw). (Tirmidhi)

Of course all the above have been rejected by MGAQ Ibn Chiragh Bibi into waste bin.

“The basis for our claim is not Hadith but Quran and that WAHI which comes to us. Yes in support we also quote those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. As for the REST OF THE HADITHs, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER.” (Roohani Khazain vol 19 p.140)

Muslims collectively throw his false claims into waste paper bin - (no recycling)*

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Dear brother psyah, may I ask why do we need direct verse for death of anyone when we have been given the general rule that all living beings face death save Allah himself. The real world works the way it does and that is the way Allah planned for it to work. So where is the problem?

Dear brethren, please let us try to cut short the issue of khatme nabuwwat.

Coming to meanings of words, as I already explained that in prototype languages roots have been given meanings on basis of concrete meanings and derived meanings but the derived meanings are always explained in such a way that they explain concrete root meanings. So it matters not whether word is khatam or khaatim both meanings ultimately end up expressing the concrete root meaning.

For example, let us take root MEEM, WOW and HAA, this root is from prototype mother language mother language that was adopted into daughter languages as MEEM, WOW and HAMZAH whereof it was adopted into arabic as MEEM, ALIF and HAMZAH. The concrete root meaning given to this root is fluid ie something that flows without flaws smoothly like liquid, the best example of which is water. This same root is attached derived meanings as well eg well, spring, ripe, gild, coat, falsification, camouflage, sperm, quench, leak etc etc.

Likewise in arabic root KHAA, TAA, MEEM has a concrete meaning and a derived set of meanings. No root can have any derived meanings that do not express the concrete meaning. A very important point to remember.

My question is what is concrete root meanings of root KHAA, TAA and MEEM? The clue is that derived meanings explain it. Everyone is invited to have a go. Let us see how far we all succeed.

This together with contextual and conceptual understanding of the quran can decide whether it is those people who claim prophet muhammad is the final messenger from God right or those who claim the prophet-hood continues after him eg followers of mriza ghulam ahmed, nations of islam and various others.

As far as I understand the issue, prophet muhammad is the final messenger and there is no prophet after him of any sort. All prophets have passed away before him and none of the prophets is coming back after him. Al others ideas are simply part of misunderstanding of the quran due to ignorance of people or due to conspiracies against islam from within with help of outsiders. The very same conspiracies that brought down khilaafah in the first place by turning islam from deen to mazhab.

I will start with deciding the concrete root meaning of the word itself because unless our concept is clear about concrete root meaning other ideas will not sink in. The finality of prophet-hood can be proved in different ways from the quran but that will become clear in due course as the arguments develop.

So my question to all who are fighting over issue of khatme nabuwwat is what is concrete root meaning of root KHAA, TAA and MEEM? Please explain the derived meanings of this root so that we all could see why your assumed concrete root meaning are right or wrong in light of your own explanation.

May Allah bless us all with proper understanding of his message.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mughal1

You have asked a good question ... But why have you asked this question too late? You don't need to answer that ... :)

Now first of all there is contention about whether Isa (AS) is alive or not ... That is already established ... The orthodoxy of Islam is upon the opinion that Isa (AS) is alive ... other groups such as your own and Mr.Popat's is that he (AS) has died ...

This had led on to the statement made by Mr.Popat that according to the Qur'an Isa (AS) has died ... This needed verification so I asked him for it .... It may be a common understanding that everyone dies ... and we believe Isa (AS) will die as well, but we do not believe he has died yet ... It therefore becomes necessary to determine from Qur'an if Isa (AS)'s death has been spoken about in the past tense ... If it has not then there is room to allow the hadith that specifically say he is alive and will return ... As shown throughout this thread there is a full grammatical basis to conclude that the death of Isa (AS) being already a case of the past at the time of revelation is inconclusive ... which means there is room to allow the idea that he (AS) is alive ...

This idea would be weak, because it is abnormal, but it is strengthened by the hadith and further strengthened with tradition that has been passed down from the authentic chains ... To the extent that it has become 'aqeedah ... because of the fitnah of people who came to contest this view ... and as can be seen they you continue to arrive ...

The Muslims accept the Sunnah if it does not CONTRADICT the Qur'an ... a true contradiction is hard to establish for people who are not well versed in logic ... they further cause fitnah by portraying half-baked seeming contradictions to the masses.

A true contradiction has to be called when there is no exception allowed and when the grammar is binding ... because of the nature of the Qur'an it is quite difficult - nearly impossible to draw true contradictions with it ... even with fabricated hadith ... this is why there is reliance on tradition which is strengthened by cross-references of scholarly consensus ... As a whole they are the best tools we have ...

Like for example - if I say "He never used to play" and contrast it with "He played my drum" ... some people will call that a contradiction but for many reasons it is not so ... I don't need to explain why ... because I want to avoid blurred conversations ... I hope this helps ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Calling it a pathetic attempt ?
You accept the fact that Hz Yusaf a.s saw a vision in which sun, moon and stars making obeisance to Him. The reply of His father was the 'interpretation' of that vision. How unfair is it that this vision needs interpretation and you have no problem with it, but the statement you quoted of Hz Ahmad(as), you want others to take it literally even though, you yourself have said it was a vision. Be a wise man please.

[QUOTE]
Do you seriously think that this was a Divine vision or just an ego trip by MGAQ?
[/QUOTE]

What is there to 'seriously think' ? It was a vision, that had interpretation. Don't make a big deal out of it. Visions that prophets see are far beyond our understandings.. and we accept the visions because they are from God. Satan don't come in form of Allah. You accept Yusuf a.s's vision needed interpretation.. accept this that the vision of Hz Ahmad(as) needed interpretation too. Instead of asking for interpretation, you're accepting it to take the same meaning as how it is seen in vision. Failed attempt.

[QUOTE]

You sound very confused, I have not acknowledged anything tacitly or otherwise – you are just dreaming. The blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) has given us the clearest signs for the descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)

No PMs, say what you have to say here.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. So, where's your first response the moment you know about Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)'s claim ? Why do you not say.. i do not accept him BECAUSE Jesus a.s is the only one that will come back .. he a.s is alive and only he will return. Do you think your this belief bring lots of contradiction?

You finally understood me. To judge His writings would mean you have accepted one thing, which is the death of Jesus a.s. You are not questioning His writing because you want to know if the person you're waiting for is Him or not. But it's ok.. hopefully you wont make the same mistake again, and actually tackle the question that needs to be answered first --- the ascension of Isa a.s

[QUOTE]
That’s true – the very words for the lips of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw)

Allah's Apostle(SAW) said:

Allah will send Maseeh ibne Maryam (Messiah son of Mary). Thus he will descend near the White Eastern Minaret of Damascus, clad in two yellow sheets, leaning on the shoulders of two angels. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 8, P. 192-193)

It is reported by Aws Ibn Aws al-Thaqafi(RA) that hazrat Muhammad(SAW)said:

Jesus, son of Mary, will descend near the white minaret towards the east of Damascus. (Tabarani)
[/QUOTE]

Notice the word 'descend'. i.e Nazala/Nazul. Not the word 'return'. i.e raju'un. For a person who is coming back, the word coming back is used, not descend. Allah says He descended animals, iron, rain, garments etc from heaven.

Let me also give you some more information . Hopefully you will connect the dots and give it some thought.

Muslim shariyah has been called the maseel of Musvi shariyah. Muhammad PBUH has been called the maseel / like of Musa a.s in Quran.
Khulfa e rashideen has been called the maseel of the prophets sent to Bani Israel

Now lets compare the two:
The beginning of Musvi shariya was with Hz Mosa (as) .. then lots of prophets were sent in Bani Israel ... at the end of Musvi shariyah is Jesus a.s
The beginning of Muhammad shariyah was Hz Muhammad PBUH.. then there were khualafa after him.. In order for the comparison of both of these ummah to complete, Muhammadi shariyah must also have a Messiah at the end ( as is believed..he will come in latter days ). This is the reason why Messiah that is to be sent to Muslims is called Jesus, Maseeh Ibn e Maryam. Isa a.s is the name given to him by Allah.. whereas Messiah is the title and Ibn e Maryam is the 'quality'.. Momins have been compared with Maryam and Asiya (as) in the Holy Quran, where as disbelievers have been compared with Hz Noah (as)'s wife. The quality of being ibn e maryam is that there will be a person who will be as pure, and unchaste as Maryam (as). Whose piousness will be accepted even by His opponents. Name Isa is because he a.s will be at the end of Muhammadi shariyah and Isa a.s was at the end of Musvi shariyah. It also means he a.s will have same qualities as that of Jesus a.s i.e peace loving, having knowledge of previous scriptures.. His birth will be questioned ( one of the point of his rejection is that he a.s was not from the family of Fatimah a.s ) just as how the birth of Jesus a.s was questioned ( though, both of these allegations on their birth are false ). His death will be questioned. ( Jesus a.s's death is questioned as well as Hz Ahmad a.s, and both allegations are false ) and other qualities as such.

Let me cut the story short now. I can give you more of the information but it seems you're slow in understanding so ill stop at this point.

Jesus a.s of Nazareth is dead. In the personality of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus a.s descend. He a.s was born in Qadian, east of Damascus. He was helped by angels in His mission and 2 yellow sheets denotes 2 diseases He a.s had.

For Jesus a.s to descend from heaven, he must first go up to heavens. A belief that has not legs to stand on. Just a blind belief portrayed by Mullahs.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Again. I want you to quote the exact wordings. You are a liar as per Muhammad PBUH for spreading heresy without confirming it.

.
:smiley: are you in some way related to Mr. Rahman Malik ? lol.. he also accused someone of being corrupted and when the person asked him to show proof.. he says.. i have said what I knew, if you think you’re not corrupted, go prove it to court that you’re not.. lol, funny !
You’re doing the same thing here.. You accuse of someone saying something and when you are told it’s wrong and you’re lying.. you turn the table and asking me to tell you what He said ? dude .. you’re accusing Him.. bring your proof. I didnt say he said that. You are !
Again.. it’s IslamAhmadiyya - Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - Al Islam Online - Official Website volume 20 of ruhani khazaen.. search it up and I need exact wordings and only then you’ll get a response on that, or I ask you to apologize for copy/pasting wrong quote from a wrong website.

the word rafaa which you take it to mean taking up physically will remain the same even after Isa a.s arrival. When he a.s dies, the same word would mean taken up.. but this time his spirit would be going up and not his body.. Why so ? One word means one thing before and it means something else after a while ?

That is your problem. And yet you say i’m trying to defend the indefensible ? I have given you verses from Quran, have I not ? Do you or do you not go against those verses ? Allah can do every thing.. but there are some laws Allah has made , which He himself will not break. Allah says .. if He wish, he could make everyone a believer.. why does he not do that ? can Allah not everything ? Allah says IF i had not made this a law that when one dies, he cannot return.. he would have surely sent you back to earth (in Quran).. Do you accuse Allah of saying false things in Quran nauzubillah, which he himself will not follow ? Does Allah break His promises ? Does Allah not know the future ? If he does, why did He say all prophets require food ? Did Allah not know he will be sustaining a prophet in some other means ?? C’mon buddy.. this is such a poor argument..and yet you say i’m the one trying to defend the indefensible ? Look what you’re doing.. you dont even have answer to half of the things I ask you.. you keep on committing shirk after shirk.. speaking against Quran over and over.. and yet being very happy of being called a ‘muslim’ by another muslim.. without thinking what term Allah uses for people like you.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace psyah..

I need a very straight forward answer from you. Am I quoting verses of Quran wrong?

-- All prophets were men.
-- Prophets bodies are not made as such that required no food.
-- Jesus a.s is no more than a prophet
-- Prophets before him have passed away ( came and gone, as you like to take it ) >> i will not start the eating or not eating debate again.

With those sets of Quranic verses (in my words tho, as its time consuming to quote each one of the verses again).. do you deny any one of them ?

One more question is .. do you use Quran as a standard and use ahadith to understand it in more depth or the other way around ? meaning.. do you think ahadith can have contradiction with Qur'an ? If you find contradiction, what do you do then ?

Also, please explain 'come and gone' shortly. Please.

Answers to those questions will make my life easier. Thanks.

608

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

May I please know what arabic word did you translate as 'pass away' ? I'll appreciate it. Thanks.

609

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Straightforward answer - yes, you are quoting the Qur'an wrong.

I don't think you will find anywhere where the Qur'an states the text that I have highlighted in blue ...

For the parts that I did not highlight - No, I do not deny the ayaat in question.

I've already explained and so has Ibn Sadique explained how we use various sources to arrive at our beliefs. No need to go over that again.

610

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ Psyah sahib,

ibn saddique quoted sayings of hazrat saffiya(ra) and ibne-abbas(ra) regarding the ascent of Isa(as) multiple times. You commended him by giving him a 'like' when he did that last time. my question to you: honestly tell me the level of authenticity of these narrations. do some search and apply your knowledge to let me know. some points to scratch your head:

1) the naration quoting ibne-abbas has reference as follows:
**Ibn Abi Hatim 4/431 Hadith 6266, Ibn Kathir 2/449. Ibn Kathir called it Sahih

don't know about the rest but what does 'Ibn Kathir 2/449**' means? there is no 449 verse of surah-baqarah. so what is it?

2) Why didn't Ibn kathir quote these under the verses where 'tawaffe' and 'rafa'of Isa(as) is mentioned? I checked. couldn't find any such thing.
let me know if you can

3) last but not the least. have a look at this narration:
**"Ibn Abbas (RA) said, “When Allah intended to raise Jesus (AS) to the heavens, he went to his companions... and Jesus (AS) ascended to the heavens through an opening in the top of the house"

You know it very well that ibne abbas has been quoted by bukhari where he equated 'Mutawafeeqa*' to *'Mumeetuka'**. means he regarded 'tawafee' in terms of death. So how do you bring harmony between this and the quote above. Just to give you the context. 'Tawafee' has been regarded by you and many others as taking up. 'Rafiooka' comes after 'Tawafee' so if you leave 'taking up' to 'rafa' then this rafa happened/happens after his death. so two quotes attributed to ibne-abbas are no way near each other but one of the quote is referred by Bukhari.

so what say you?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders


when you make a claim this big, you must not expect people to take your word for it. substantiate it please. reliable hadith or reliable quote of a sahabi. nothing else. let me know if you did that and I missed it.

612

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[quote]

Next verse 6/36 is literal ... Resurrection is not referring to people who are physically alive.

[/quote]

wrong answer.

YUSUFALI: Those who listen (in truth), be sure, will accept: as to the dead, Allah will raise them up; then will they be turned unto Him.
PICKTHAL: Only those can accept who hear. As for the dead, Allah will raise them up; then unto Him they will be returned.
SHAKIR: Only those accept who listen; and (as to) the dead, Allah will raise them, then to Him they shall be returned.

for the first part, 'listen' has not been used in literal sense. It means those who pay heed to the message of Allah. of-course all those who didn't accept Islam were not all physically deaf. Now the later part of this verse, it cannot mean physically dead since it does not make sense at all here. The dead ones here are the opposite to those who accept.

613

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[quote]

Then you are led by the nose by kchughtai ... He has given you even more inconsistency to chew on ...

In 8/24 we are neither talking about physically dead people ...nor are we talking about spiritually dead people ... We are talking about Those Who Believe ... And you swooned on it and accepted his help ... Just because he is from your fold ... You should have corrected him ...
Rather 8/22 - 8/25 ... Is a beautiful depiction of the worst people and the best ... Here the people who are deaf and dumb and do not use reason are the worst of people ... I.e. it is those who prevent themselves from listening and speaking about good and they don't entertain any better or wiser way to exist ... That they are doubly barred ... On the other hand there are people who believed ... And wants them to listen and obey ... In order to reach Jannah ... Life in this verse refers to paradise existence after Judgement Day ... Or indeed straight away as martyrs living as green birds until Judgement Day.

[/quote]

The point of quoting this verse was quite simple i.e., *‘Yuhyeekum’ (give you life) has been used not in literal way. *

Here is what ibne-kaseer say about it.
Al-Bukhari said,
"( اسْتَجِيبُواْ Answer), obey, (لِمَا يُحْيِيكُمْ ** that which will give you life) that **which will make your affairs good.''
Al-Bukhari went on to narrate that Abu Said bin Al-Mualla said,
"I was praying when the Prophet passed by and called me, but I did not answer him until I finished the prayer. He said, What prevented you from answering me?
Has not Allah said: you who believe! Answer Allah and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life).'
He then said:I will teach you the greatest Surah in the Qur'an before I leave. When he was about to leave, I mentioned what he said to me. He said,
All the praises and thanks are to Allah, the Lord of all that exists... (1:1-6)
Surely, it is the seven oft-repeated verses.'''
Muhammad bin Ishaq narrated that Muhammad bin Jafar bin Az-Zubayr said that Urwah bin Az-Zubayr explained this Ayah, (O you who believe! Answer Allah and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life),
"Answer when called to war (Jihad) with which Allah gives you might after meekness, and strength after weakness, and shields you from the enemy who oppressed you.''

So we have three explanations here:
1) Giving life as - Making your affairs good
3) Giving life as - Allah gives you might after meekness, and strength after weakness, and shields you from the enemy who oppressed you.
2) The most important is this that I couldn’t understand in the first place as why surah –e-fatiah is mentioned here. Now I have got it to some extent. What is surah-e-fatiah all about?
It is a prayer asking Allah for
- Guidance to the right path
- Protection from being like those who invoked Allah’s wrath upon them
- and those who strayed away from the right path
and this is how Allah gives life to the people through His messengers

614

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

More Quranic Verses in favor of ‘No one returns back from the dead in this world’

36:31) Have they not seen how many generations We have destroyed before them, **and ***that they never return to them*?

36:51) And they will not be able to make a will, nor will they return to their families.

39:43) Allah takes away the souls of human beings at the time of their death; and during their sleep of those also *that are not *yet *dead. **And then He retains those against which He has decreed death, and sends back *the others till an appointed term. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect.

23:16) Then after that you must surely die. Then on the Day of Resurrection will you be raised up.

I am sure you will again come up with an innovative idea for bypassing all this proof.

615

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Dear brother psyah, what solid reason do you have to doubt the death of prophet jesus? Just because some reports tell us he will come again does not allow us to disregard the rule of wisdom on that basis alone. After all if we start accepting reports on basis of their narrators regardless of contradictions within themselves or in relation to reasoning in light of self evident facts then what valid reason is left for us to reject any testimony of any witness in court of law when one is telling us about something in a contradictory way or that if one contradicts the rules of wisdom? For example, if 2 billion people bear witness that jesus is God or son of God, is that sufficient that these people are telling the truth? In that case why do you not accept their testimony? What right do we have to use logic when it suits us and not when it does not? Is this not the reason we are having difficulty inviting others to islam or for that matter the truth based upon logic in light of real world realities?

This is how we make truth look totally false through confusing interpretations and then we blame others for being kufaar as well as throw fatwas of kufar at each other as if we are playing with pan cakes. My problem is that without solid foundation of logic in light of revelation and universal realities we have nothing to unite us and nothing to bring others closer to islam. This way we are going against the quran which tells us invite others to divine goal using wisdom and good mannerism. Being illogical is being ignorant and foolish not wise so if we are foolish ourselves how can we make others see sense and be sensible and wise? This is why I only accept those interpretations of the divine message that fit the purpose of the message in light of universal realities. I have explained the context of the quran purposefully that is what gives me the reason to accept the quranic message the way it makes sense so any other way that causes confusion is wrong as I see it.

The context the quran puts forth explains everything very nicely eg islam being the set goal for mankind to accomplish with quran being its manifesto to be spread among people so that then they use it as the constitution for creating or building a peaceful human society upon. This is like creating jannah in this world and being successful here and there is hope given to humanity that Allah will award them for their such good works yet more in life to come. People who fail will have to burn with fire of regrets and jealousy once the time for works is lost just like they suffer in this word due to insecure life full of worries. So it is hell of our own making in this life as well as in hereafter.

This concept explain the real purpose of azaan, slaah and zakaah as well ie tell people Allah is great and we know that because of muhammad the messenger of Allah and the reason Allah is great is because he has given us nizaam of slaah so come let us join in slaah=in community support network in the name of Allah as taught by his messenger so that we are all successful through removing all ills from our human society.

The namaaz is actual reflection of this concept ie all of you the people stand together as one before God five times daily. Zakaah is not about charity 2.5% but an economic system that ensures that muslims have no poverty in their community by basing their production and distribution along these lines of brotherhood. Not as masters and slaves of each other. You share your work load and share the benefit you produce because of that as a community.

Can you see how kings and mullahs made fool of this people by setting them up against each other in rivalries and competition turning them into worst enemies or rather animals?

Today ummah is totally confused about RIBAA, TIJAARAH, ANFAAL, GHANEEMAH and BAEE like terms. We are trying to fit-in with capitalist system and creating baseless masle masaail based upon our ignorance of things that islam told us 1400 + years back.

Can you see how the quran explains the concepts of jihaad fee sabeelillah-in the way of Allah? What is this sabeel? It is program of Allah for mankind to make effort in bringing about peaceful human society.

The quran is very clear if one tries to make sense of its dots by connecting them together in a way that makes sense. This is why the quran is book of revelation for education based revolution to change the system that is destroying humanity with the one that builds it on solid foundations or basis.

This is why to turn islam in to religious nonsense makes it toothless ie good for nothing. That is exactly what kings wanted ie real islam out of their way so that they could fulfil their destructive ambition of ruling others. This is exactly what all rulers and bankers want and that is why they have been and they are funding their mullahs all over the world so that ignorant masses are kept ignorant and used like animals by them. These masses accept all this because they are made to look to God for solution of their problems the wrong way ie supernatural way. This is how concept of saviours is turned on its head by these mullahs for masses. The poor ignorant masses are told when things get bad Allah will send his saviour for you and he will do all that he need to do to get rid of your problems by his magic that Allah will give him.

The fact is each and every divine messenger was a savour for the people he was sent to. But the way to salvation=freedom from troubles was always through people working hard themselves according to program Allah sent through his messengers. This is why Allah changes peoples' destiny through their own hard work. Any nations looking for supernatural intervention are not going to get it.

This is why jesus is not alive we are and the quran is not for jesus but for us to rise up and do what is needed to be done. This was always the case and this is always going to be the case. Ordinary people who will rise from time to time to raise awareness in ummah to find its lost glory are all mahdies and mujaddideen. Today ummah is in trouble and people who have sense are doing their bit to raise awareness in ummah about the message of the quran so that people unite and work together to turn the tide and make this ummah great again. This is why we are told stories of the past prophets so that we too follow their patterns of revolutions. This is how the final messenger was educated by God and that is how he established islamic state. Can anyone see any contradiction in all this?

Islam has nothing to do with rulers, mullahs and money makers and lenders. It is a very simple way of life yet 100% capable of leading humanity to heights of excellence. It motivates people in the name of God and humanity for their own good. On the contrary capitalism is all about individuals to do better for themselves by undercutting each other through rivalries. The same is true about communism and likewise any other ism. Islam does not teach individuals to be weak but to be strong so that you not only look after yourself but all others whom you can. This mindset and attitude is the only right one that can give rise to good practices and customs in the human community. We do not have the right education in schools today because all we learn is how to get the next person down by knowing better and we copy right everything so that none other benefits from whatever we come up with forgetting it was all from God to us. This is what we call professional education today. An education that turns people against each other and then we complain why we are not helping each other. Why we are moving away from each other in our societies and families are being destroyed and so all people around the world are suffering poverty or depression through lots of different kinds of man made pressures that they cannot cope with.

This is why islam is a deen not mazhab because it wants to effect change in the real world by means of people themselves. Mazhab is mullas' creation to divide people so that they could be ruled by them or their masters. When people become divided, they set themselves against each other and so they lose their strength and that is how some people from among them take advantage of them by becoming their leaders and the human world become an animal kingdom.

I hope this explanation sheds a bit more light on the context of islam that is very obvious from the quran. No where in the quran Allah encourages people to be supernaturally dependent upon Allah and do nothing to better their world and sit and cry to God all the time complaining about each and everything. Allah everywhere in the quran tells people be strong and get on with what you are told to do as you are told to do and you will get what my program is supposed to deliver to you. It is working partnership between God and man. God only delivers what he promised to mankind if they do their bit.

May Allah guide us all to his path of peace and security thereby protect us from stress and anxiety.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace kchughtai

None of these verses you have posted address the topic of the raising of the dead person by Isa (AS) ... and they are indeed specific to their own topics ... As I said and agree there is a general rule, but that does not apply where a verse of the Qur'an clearly states the opposite for that verse.

617

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mughal1

It is a doubt shared by the best of scholars of Islam, the most versed and the most connected to the tradition. Also, there are plenty of references in the Qur'an that say he was saved from death and from being killed, there are plenty of references from previous scripture and previous beliefs that confirm this. There are many ahadith that confirm this and I have seen none to go against this idea ... and so together it becomes binding on us to believe this.

618

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace kchughtai

Thank you ... I accept this tafsir - I also said this verse applies in a metaphoric way just as the previous ayat ... It doesn't change the direction of my conversation and hence is irrelevant, but you have given me some good information that I see and accept. I saw a bracket term meaning "life after death" so there are other tafsir as well ...

619

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ Now I have gotten used to it that whenever you say that my answer doesn't apply or is irrelevant then it had actually hit the right note. ;)

620

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Dear brethren, islam is a deen not mazhab. Just ask yourselves why educated people leave mazhab altogether because they see no point in baseless ritualism and power of rulers and priesthood and banking. The success of the west is due to combination of capitalism, secularism and democracy as compared to imperialism and spiritualism.

Why is this the case? It is because they got rid of control by kings and mullas and freed people totally to do as they please as in natural world like animals. That is if you do not live by islam then the 2nd best things is to live by nature wherein survival of the fittest is the rule of the law.

In other words we either live by islam ie by rising above nature and directing it to advantage of humanity or at least live like animals and survive. Other than that people have no choice.

The concept of direct supernatural interventions is missing both in islam and secularism. The only difference is people ought to believe in God on basis of his guidance in light of real world realities in case of islam and therefore rise above animal kingdom in their behaviour. If our islam does not make us human beings we ought to be then that islam is useless and people who claim to be that kind of muslims are wasting their lives away and akhirah is going to be full of regrets because Allah has warned animals in human forms ie people who have been given brains and senses with ability to understand divine guidance and universal realities to use them to their advantage yet they do not therefore live to eat and eat to live like animals ie aimless lives.

Man was created to rise to heavens with his own effort as guided intellectually and physically like soaring birds not remain sleeping in caves and doing terrible things to each other learning no sense and doing nothing worthwhile with his life.

So we need to get out of mindsets, attitudes and practices that hold us back from bemcoming thinking and doing human beings. Allah tells us he has create the world for man to control and redirect it on behest of Allah not remain subservient to it. What muslims have done is not to worship stone idols but taken up a lot of other idols in human form ie rulers, priests and bankers or money lenders. I wonder why jews were condemned for taking their leaders as their masters and why we are told about it in the quran?

This explanation again proves consistently why there is no concept of supernatural saviours in islam nor the concept of miracles and magic and jinns with supernatural powers. All nonsense invented by mullas to make fol of ignorant people to use and abuse them for their own goals. Allah again and again invited us to rely on his universal set laws for doing things to get results for our actions. This is why if we do not do things for ourselves then they do not happen for us. Are our palaces build without our doing so? Does our food grow all by itself? The quran again and again draws our attention to how natural world works and what role we should be playing in there. No where Allah says in the quran you do nothing just leave everything to me and you will be ok. Everywhere Allah tells us struggle hard for each and everything you want to get done.

All this makes clear as daylight why islam is a deen and not a mazhab. If anything islam is anti religion. So time for people to find out right concept of islam and stick with it if they want a better world and yet better hereafter otherwise do as you please and wait for results of your actions and it is not going to be good. Other than islam all else is rubbish because it is harmful and destructive for mankind. This is why Allah does not accept of anyone any effort unless it is according to his directions. All ways other than proper islam lead to harm and destruction therefore they are not acceptable to God and they should not be accepted by mankind is the message of the quran.

Whether we ar heading the right way or wrong way should be obvious from results of our actions as nations. No need for any miracles to prove this truth it is 100% self evident. That is how the quran is 100% scientific and therefore one can not win debate against the quran. Please learn islam properly and try talking to nonmuslims and see for yourselves if they can oppose you intellectually. They cannot and that is the proof that islam is a really divine in its origin therefore mankind have no escape but to accept islam and do as it tells and enjoy the fruits of their actions.

So far one will see there is no any contradiction in the teachings of the quran. It is a straight forward book if people use a little sense. Rulers and mullahs and money lenders try to confuse us and we keep going back to them for doses of nonsense rather than developing our own critical thinking and seeing which way are we being led. The quran itself tells us not to follow anything blindly even if it is in the name of God himself and all because people lie a lot in the name of God. So how can a person claiming to be follower of guidance from the quran follow just anything anyone tells him like a sheep?

regards and all the best.