Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
581

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ where is the denial ? I'm denying your understanding of it. I'm still on the same stance that prophets raise spiritually dead people. I gave you a verse about Abrahim AS. Yes. I deny your understanding of Isa a.s literally creating bird. I showed you why i reject that understanding from another verse of Quran that i provided. The stance i'm keeping has been the same all along.

I accept the verse as its in Quran. I reject your understanding of it. I accept the understanding i presented which is also evident from 2:260. Thanks.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

How much of shirk will you people keep doing ?

Not only Jesus a.s raised people dead literally according to you, but he a.s also 'created' birds ! wow! i've heard enough !

583

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

PROPHET Isa AS created from clay as far as the form of the bird (watch for the word 'made')

theres no shirk here, but perfected tawheed
Allah SWT says:**
...and when you made out of the clay a figure like that of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, 5:110**

... "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave;**..(3:49)

**tell me what you heard from the verse

Isa AS said:..Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. 3:49
Allah SWT says: ...*and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'"5:110
*

Allah SWT says you are disbeliever

584

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Brother Shardmanny :salam:

You are talking about Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) Miracles??? Bird from lump of clay?

That’s nothing! MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi was creating Heavens and Earth and then a Man in one of his Visions

“In a vision I saw that I myself was God and believed myself to be such. I felt that I had no will or thought or action of my own left, and that I had become like something which is being completely overpowered by something else that had absorbed me wholly so that my own being had completely disappeared.

I saw the divine spirit envelop my soul and covering my body hide me completely in itself so that not a particle of me remained.
I beheld myself as if all my limbs had become His, my eye had become His eye, my ears had become His ears and my tongue had become His tongue.

My Lord seized me with such great force that I disappeared in Him and I felt that His Power was surging in me and that His divinity was coursing through me.

The Lord of honour had set His camp all around my heart and the Lord of power ground down my soul so that there was no more of me nor any desire of mine left. My whole structure was demolished and only the structure of the Lord of the universe remained visible.

The Divine overcame me with such force that I was drawn to Him from the hair of my head to the nails of my toes.

Then I became all spirit which had no body and became oil which had no dregs.

I was separated completely from my ego and I became like something which was not visible or like a drop which had become merged in the ocean so that the ocean comprehended it in its vastness. I no longer knew what I had been before or what my being was.

Divinity coursed through my veins and muscles. I was completely lost to myself and God Almighty employed all my limbs for His purpose and took possession of me with such force that nothing could exceed it. By this seizure I became non-existent.

I believed that my limbs had become God’s limbs and I imagined that I had discarded my own being and had departed from my own existence, and that no associate or claimant had remained as an obstruction.

God Almighty entered wholly into my being and my anger and my gentleness, my bitterness and my sweetness and my movement and my inertness all became His. In this condition I said: I desire a new universe, a new heaven and a new earth.

I then created the heaven and the earth in a mass without order or distinction and then according to the divine will I arranged and classified this mass.

I felt that I had the power to create it.

Then I created the lower heaven and said: We have decorated the lower heaven with lamps.

Then I said: We shall now create man from the essence of clay. Then my condition moved from vision towards the reception of revelation and my tongue uttered: I determined to make a vicegerent and created Adam.

Then we created man in the best mould”. (Kitabul-Bariyya pp. 78-79). (Tadhkirah pp. 118-120).

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Ibn Sadique and shardmanny

When Dajjal comes and shows his stuff THAT ALLAH (SWT) has enabled for him ... then for sure much people who will have based their lives on rational thought will see his works and fall in to wonder ... Alhumdulillah we will not find it special ... And I pray that his fitnah does not affect us ... but it only seems obvious to me that when these rational/reductionists actually see wonderous things happening before their eyes and based on their understanding ... at least the Ahmadi understanding - they will believe Dajjal to be the God he will claim to be ... Not you and I ... You and I know that God is not in the form of a human body deficient one at that ... but these people will be eclipsed ... because they have not prepared themselves to actually see such things ...

I don't mind what they believe now, (so long as they keep it to themselves) ... but if they want to be saved from Dajjal they need to take careful consideration of what we have been telling them of our beliefs on this matter to prepare them for the most confusing times to comes.

.... Mr.Popat ... your understanding of 'aqeedah is half-baked ... please bake that understanding and refine it ... and defend yourself when it will be needed from you ... Peace

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

wa alaikum salam, JazakAllah Ibn Sadique and Psyah

mr.popat and heirachy company LTD have made up beliefs to compensate for him

should we do more to wind up this company which denies authentic interpretation of Islam to its victims? watching some ex qadiani who have reverted to islam on youtube they all say the heirachy go to some extraordinary lengths to deny members from gaining anysort of islamic education aside from cult.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Salams shardmanny

I don't think our attempts to educate certain people will work ... it would be easier resurrecting the dead than trying to do that ... mind the pun.

588

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

^ Good pun

Brother psyah :salam: I think they are just part time rationalists the better expression would be that they are opportunistic rationalists.

They use rationalism against their opponents – sort of to shut them up – But to defend strange (I am using this word very judiciously)sayings of MGA Ibn Chiragh Bibi the rationality goes out the window.

Take the case of Red Ink drops falling out of MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi’s vision (Kashf). They explained it away very casually and all the principles of Rationality were discarded into to the Waste basket (following the sunnah you know who)

Now wait and see what principled somersaults they take to explain the vision of MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi posted by just prior to your post. Just watch. Now it will become some Sufi Mambo jumbo!

I am still waiting for some Ahmadi to come forward and address the following:

Such a prolific Miracle Maker and they can’t give me top 10 – that’s 6 hours job for him.

I must say I admire Mr. popat’s tenacity to defend the indefensible – sheer courage

589

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

:halo: Why are you being stubborn ? Allah says accept Islam fully. Don’t take one thing and neglect other aspects of it. Do you know Muhammad PBUH was also called magician by Makkans ? Do you recall an old lady who Muhammad PBUH helped by carrying her luggage..and on her way, she was telling Muhammad PBUH that there’s a magician in Makkah (referring to Muhammad PBUH).. upon reaching the destination, Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH told her that the magician you’re calling Muhammad (pbuh) is He Himself.

You call this perfect tawheed ? Ok then :slight_smile: Allah is the one who will raise dead. Isa a.s did exactly the same. Allah is the khaliq of all the creations. Isa a.s also stand alone in doing this. Perfect! I’m better off far away from this kind of tawheed.

My understanding does not contradict Quran. My stance has been the same. Birds is used as a metaphor as i explained earlier. Please see 2:260.

I dont call it magic. Muhamamd PBUH’s prophethood was not magic, neither was Isa a.s’s prophethood.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

removing words from your quote to make my point.

  1. it’s a vision, wasnt it ? ok , great then :slight_smile:
  2. Hz Yousaf saw a vision too. Do you reject it ?
  1. You’re making this mistake again. :halo: When you question what he a.s wrote, then you’re indirectly accepting the belief that Jesus a.s is dead and whoever you’re waiting for is someone other than Jesus a.s but the person is NOT him. If that’s the case, then I have alhamdulillah accomplished one of the task.. to know, if the person is Hz Ahmad(as) or not, you can PM me and ill show you his truthfulness.

I dont see your first response ! Your response should be .. ‘wait a minute, no matter what he says.. he cannot be messiah, because messiah will be literally coming back from heavens’. I dont see this from your side. Are you afraid you cannot defend your belief ?

PS: Also Ibn Sadique, go and refer back to the verses shadmanny quoted. No matter how many miracles are provided to you, you will NOT believe !

Second thing is, its a shame you keep quoting references from His books falsely ! You feel no shame whatsoever to take some time out and read for yourself if it is infact written the way you’ve been told its written. The way you quoted is wrong. Muhammad PBUH says .. for someone to be a liar, its enough that he hear something from someone and spread it, without confirming it. You’re being called a liar by Muhammad PBUH.

Go back and I demand the exact right wordings of what he said ! alislam.org go and spend some time and search yourself. May Allah open your heart and forgive you for spreading heresy.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

There’s nothing and i mean NOTHING that i need to defend. My belief is Jesus a.s is dead according to Quran and i provided you verses why I believe so.

Its rather you people who cannot defend your own beliefs.

My beliefs are from Qur’an and I have alhamdulillah kept the same beliefs all along. I have not gone against a single verse of Quran.

All prophets are men. They all require food. Isa a.s is no more than a messenger. He used to eat food along with His mother Mary. All these verses are IN QURAN ! You are the one who is helpless in defending all that i asked you, and whats the end answer I get from you ? You do not know how Allah is sustaining Isa a.s.. Allah can do everything.. and answers like that… without knowing what verses you’re going against.

Im the one asking you people questions based on verses of Quran. What do I have to defend ?? :confused: I sense your helplessness, nothing else..

But its ok.. dil ko behlaane ke liye Ghalib ye khyaal acha hai :slight_smile:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

about what you said of Surah Lahab.. its different than the verse of Isa a.s which you take as him taken up. First time rafaa would mean 'taken up to Allah physically' , upon His death in his second coming, the same word would mean taken up to Allah, but his spirit will go up 2nd time, not his body... why this double meaning/interpretation of the same verse ? :(

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

You obviously cannot hear us, or see our writing … Although you see … Now the only way you can sustain this conversation is by these lies … :nahi:

You know full well what we say … tell us Mr.Popat … You use the same argument that we are using … We say that none can raise the dead … Except by Allah’s leave … You say none can raise the spiritually dead except by Allah’s leave … In fact one the ayahs you presented states that disbelievers cannot be guided … Yet you also claim that Isa (AS) did so …

Now if you are invoking the exception of Isa (AS) to be able to go against that ayat by raising the spiritually dead and confirm the other ayat … Through the except clause of “by Allah’s Leave” … Then that is all we are doing too … However, you don’t like it …

All you have to be is graceful and accept that this ayat allows the concept of physical miracles. Instead, you are acting up … Blaming us for saying things that we did not say …

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

From the beginning Mr.Popat there is no direct verse that says Isa (AS) has died … There are selected verses that you base your argument on … And with closer examination we have seen your arguments fail …

Khatam … You claim means seal … But in Warsh recital … Same word is Khatim … And that means LAST …

Food verse … You hinged your argument on the irregular translated phrase “used to eat” where in fact you and your friend have shot yourselves in the foot confirming what I siaid that the verb used is past tense imperfect … Imperfect verbs mean that the act was happening when it was seen … And had not been completed …this refutes your stance on the hinge you used … But also there was no mention of death … You claim it comes from Qad Khalat which is an obscure term again and not a direct one … You wanted it to mean ‘death’ …

Then the verses regarding raising the dead … You turn into metaphor when indeed they are not … And have never been understood that way until MGAQ came on the scene.

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Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

i read everything you and everyone else writes here and i reply to everything you ask me as well.
I have responded to you on this one. It seems you just like to read whatever u like and ignore everything else.
Prophets ARE sent to humankind to raise them up spiritually. The term 'dead' IS used in Quran for disbelievers. Prophet Muhammad pbuh gave life the same way to people. I have said this earlier..people who believe are raised spiritually. People who dont are dead whose hearts are sealed. There is no blame on any prophet for not raising them as their duty is to only convey the message and nothing else.

I have also said this earlier..i believe jesus a.s to have raised the dead the same way Muhammad pbuh gave life to dead. Do you find having this belief violate any verse of Quran? Why? Also, how does it even matter? How does this prove his ascension? :S
Do you not think your belief of him literally raising dead goes against other verses of Quran?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

I'll be as clear as possible for you ...

1) Ayat 3/49
2) Ayat 27/80

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah .** And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . **And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

Indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating.

Here are the two verses side by side ...

You say both these verses apply to spiritual death ... I say the first verse is literally dead being given life back ... And the red one is a metaphor ...

If they are both spiritual death ... Then you are creating a contradiction out of the verses ... But you appealed to the exception ... "by Allah's leave"

For us the contradiction is not even there ... Because one verse is a metaphor and the other is literal. Even then we say the same thing ... Isa (AS) did not raise the dead from his choice, but through du'a, Allah (SWT) raised the dead at the hands of His prophet Isa (AS) ...

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Again.. Its ur wishful thinking that my arguments fail. What ive seen it all this time is you relying on any one thing to keep ur foot on, when u dont see thats strong enough , you turning ur view on something else. This is whats been happening.

The word in Quran is khatam. To change the meaning of it and use it as khatim is changing the very fundamental belief to suit your need. Remember..quran is not to be changed. Your beliefa needs to be changed according to Quran.

Regarding eating..its really sad how you think u answered my question.

You forgot your reply where you said Allah is sustaining him through other means. You had to come up with something because you KNOW eating is one thing no prophet is immune from. Its a necessity for them all. Its very sad how you did reply to my posts but nothing to back up your belief. anyone can say anything but my standard is quran. You have no answer to my questions from quran. This is the reality.

Qad khalat is used in quran in other verses as i have presented earlier. It means passing away. If you take it to mean 'come and gone' and insist on taking its literal meaning and not explaining what 'come and gone' mean to you , then thats being unfair from your side. Prophets before him have 'come and gone' and Messiah is no more than a messenger. You need to explain to me how the come and gone of other prophets took place. Did you answer that? Nope.

Raising of dead i have explained as much as i could. Rest i leave it up to you. However u like to take it. This belief takes you one step closer to Christians. This is how:
-- jesus a.s dont eat and is alive
-- jesus dont have to stay on earth to be alive
-- jesus a.s raised dead literally, like God will do on the final day

-- jesus a.s is also the khaaliq of birds which he created..Allah does the same thing.

You keep insisting it says 'by allah's leave'. Yes ofcourse by Allah's leave. Everything is done by Allah's leave. Raising of spiritually dead is done by Allah's leave too. He guide whomsoever He pleases. Things which he is alone and then saying such and such things Jesus a.s also could do is shirk!

Enough of this discussion already. I have made my points very clear. You're welcome to use your brain and think about them.

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ill make it as easy for you as possible too.
I read both verse. I take both to be metaphor. I dont say Jesus a.s raised dead by his own. He did it by Allah's leave. What is that Allah's leave? The guidance Allah has given to Isa a.s likr other prophets...the true revelations he received from God by which noble souls accepted Him and were hence raised to life by Allah's leave.
What i'm saying is..everything is by the will of Allah. Prophets do everything with the will of Allah. There is no way you can take this verse and interpret 'raise dead' as literal for this verse and other verses to take it as metaphors. Has Muhammad pbuh not given life ? What about 2:260? How did Allah show Abrahim a.s how He raise the dead? Its all metaphors which your wrongly take to be literal, thereby knowingly committing shirk.
You are also creating contradiction in Quran as i said this many many times. Quran says Allah alone will raise dead. Islamic belief is when one dies he doesnt return. Allah says he alone is the khaliq. You are saying no one else cud do all of these except Jesus a.s ( then you say by Allah's leave ) ..im saying even spiritually raising is done by Allah's will as he says he guides whomsoever he wishes.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Popat Sorry to say that was a pathetic attempt to explain away MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi’s vision.

Hz. Yusuf (as) saw a vision from Allah Almighty and message being that he will be honoured as a prophet just like his father Hz. Yakub (as) and grandfather Hz, Ibrahim (as).

Following was the reply of Hz. Yakub (as) to his son (Hz. Yusuf (as)) when he had related his dream. There is nothing more to it.

“O my son! Relate not your vision to your brothers, lest they arrange a plot against you. Verily! Satan is to man an open enemy! Thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of dreams (and other things) and perfect His Favor on you and on the offspring of Jacob, as He perfected it on your fathers, Abraham, and Isaac aforetime! Verily! your Lord is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” (Ch 12:5-6)

Refer back to MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi’s vision. He is diffused into Allah Almighty ('audhu billah) and Allah is diffused into him ('audhu billah) and from then on he started using the term ‘We’ .

Do you seriously think that this was a Divine vision or just an ego trip by MGAQ?

You sound very confused, I have not acknowledged anything tacitly or otherwise – you are just dreaming. The blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) has given us the clearest signs for the descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)

No PMs, say what you have to say here.

That’s true – the very words for the lips of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw)

Allah’s Apostle(SAW) said:

Allah will send Maseeh ibne Maryam (Messiah son of Mary). Thus he will descend near the White Eastern Minaret of Damascus, clad in two yellow sheets, leaning on the shoulders of two angels. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 8, P. 192-193)

It is reported by Aws Ibn Aws al-Thaqafi(RA) that hazrat Muhammad(SAW)said:

Jesus, son of Mary, will descend near the white minaret towards the east of Damascus. (Tabarani)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Please just give me the 10 top miracles of MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi, do you deny he made around a million miracles in his lifetime? He said so!

If I have quoted it wrong the onus is on you to show the original writings of MGAQ to show that he has been misquoted.

Popat another pathetic attempt by you – BE aware your posts are read by intelligent people you cannot pull wool over their eyes.

We still recite Surah Lahab in future tense even though the event is in past now.

Please don’t make a fool of yourself. I know this is a marathon run for you and you alone are defending your faith very tenaciously (I admire you for that) but that must mean that you will be allowed to wiggle out by pulling wool over the eyes of everyone.

Your belief is false – Do you deny that Allah Almighty can do anything? If yes, accept it. If not, then you have problems with Omnipotence of Allah Almighty.