Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
561

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Right after 27-80.. read the next verse. Here it is :

[QUOTE]
[27:81] And thou canst not guide the blind out of their error. Thou canst make only those to hear who believe in Our Signs, for they submit.
[/QUOTE]

Those whose hearts have been sealed, they will not believe. Therefore they are spiritually dead. We cannot blame any prophet for not raising them to life spiritually because in another verse, Allah says that the duty of a messenger is to only to convey the message.

If you read Qur'an we find there are also 2 types of believers. i) those who say we believe but Allah says imaan has not even crossed their heart. ii) those who are spiritually raised.. those who will sacrifice everything for the sake of Allah.

Jesus a.s had the capability to raise dead. But that does not mean He a.s had raised every single one. Ofcourse we know there are still jews who did not believe in him.. you may call them as those who are deaf, dumb and blind.. or those who are spiritually dead. No matter how much truthfulness of Jesus a.s do we show them, they will not believe. Though, those who believe are spiritually raised by Jesus a.s. Those who wont will never believe.
Hope this helps.

PS: Hope you connected the dots on how in Quran physical alive person is called spiritually dead and physical dead person is called spiritually alive.

562

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

You need to be honest and learn logic. You say the Qur'an says only Allah will raise the dead, whereas it also says in the Qur'an in 3/49 that Isa (AS) raised the dead.

You say this our contradiction ... Yet it is the Qur'an. But in reality this is your dishonesty ... Not only is there no where in the Qur'an that says ONLY Allah (SWT) raises the dead ... But it is understood by Muslims that when anyone raises the dead ... It is really Allah (SWT) doing it ... Show where in the Qur'an it states ONLY Allah (SWT) raises the dead ... then I will accept it ... Otherwise you need to accept from us that Muslims do not believe people are to be credited for raising the dead ... Rather it is Allah (SWT) ... And if you looked at the Holy Book with our frame of reference then you will see that we are not being contradictory.

Once a human dies Allah (SWT) does not send them back to Earth ... You say this is in the Qur'an ... Please show the verses ... But yet again ... We see the verse in the Qur'an that says Jesus (AS) raised the dead ... so if you look at it from our perspective we are not making it up ... That in some cases the dead do indeed come back. Unless you show in the verses you bring that no exception can be made.

The idea of being sustained with or without food but in manner that is different to what we normally expect is found with clear verse in Surah Kahf ...

And you would think them awake, while they were asleep. And We turned them to the right and to the left, while their dog stretched his forelegs at the entrance. If you had looked at them, you would have turned from them in flight and been filled by them with terror. Verse 18/18

563

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Thank you ... I agree with you ... That a disbeliever cannot be guided, but a believer can be guided. You have proven it .... I still insist that the verse here is not saying "spiritually dead" but it is drawing a parallel between the physically "dead" with disbelief ... In other words the Qur'an mentions the word of "dead" in the physical sense ...

But since the implication of this verse is about guidance it does not negate "raising the dead" ...in the literal sense, which means it is not valid evidence against the idea of the miracle we are portraying.

564

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

With all due respect. You are the one who need to clearly read what i'm saying then reply to me. Sorry, but you need to learn logic here. WHEN did i say Jesus a.s did NOT raise dead ? WHEN did i say it is NOT in Quran ? WHERE do you see contradiction in my understanding ? I said you are bringing contradiction in Quran when you know Allah says he will raise dead.. then you say in another verse Jesus a.s raised dead ? Yes, the verse is IN QURAN...but your understanding is wrong. If its right, then this is contradiction you are bringing in Quran yourself. Why are there 2 meanings to everything in Quran from your side ??? I just dont get it ! I have seen it from your side of it. Trust me.. I have. All i see is 2 meanings of everything. Quran says one thing.. your belief says something else. Do I believe you or Quran ?

I've been saying same thing all the time. Jesus a.s raised spiritually dead people. Physical dead people, only Allah will raise, that too on the day of judgement. Also, once one dies, they dont return to earth. Period. If you ask me of reference from Qur'an for these, I can happily do that, but it'll honestly be a shame !

Try to understand what i'm saying here. You must first clear to me one verse and its meaning before you give me another verse. To not give me a clear meaning of a verse, and in response to one verse, you give me another verse, that means according to you, there is contradiction in Quran.

Quran says all prophets require food. You are giving me another verse in that response. You should first give me a good explanation about that verse, then synchronize it with other verses of Quran. You DO NOT give me another verse in its response. You are suggesting Qur'an is unclear about certain things, thereby giving mixed meanings... I said countless times, this shows that you think there is contradiction. I hope you read this atleast twice to get in your head what i'm trying to say here.

Thank you.

565

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

:hinna:

Quran talks about the word ‘dead’ both in physical as well as metaphoric sense as I provided verses earlier. You still insist? ok,sir!

Take it however you like. . :slight_smile:

Apni dafli, apna raag… Jiski laathi uski bhens. :slight_smile:

566

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Here's a friendly suggestion to you. Take a piece of paper and a pen. Write down the mohkam verses of Quran. Understand them first. Then write down your beliefs in the next column. Next column, write down if they are in accordance to Quran. If they are, how ? if not, why not ? if you need another verse of Quran for your belief, then search the Quran and see if there is in fact any other verse in Qur'an negating your belief. Remember, you can have contradiction in your belief. But you will not see one verse of Quran saying one thing, and another saying something else. No contradiction in Quran. It's a perfect book for a reason.

Keep Quran as a standard and judge your every belief based on it. Just a friendly advice. :)

567

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Look your beliefs are very different from ours ... Ours is established by the authenticity of the understandings that go back in unbroken chains to the prophet Muhammad (SAW) ... Yours are a selected few Hadith that MGAQ has taken on in his own interpreted way ...

Although you call yourselves Muslims ... There is as you yourself have shown a huge difference between us ... Such a big difference that our conversing will not change it. But it is clear that we differ ... It is also clear that you need to learn logic ... You still have not commented on my diagram ... You can still do so ... You have also been shown that people can be made to last many years such as the sleepers of the cave ... You have also avoided the leper discussion ...

On top of this Islam as it came was fully aware of the literal understandings of the miracles that Isa (AS) performed according the Christians and it did not see fit to clarify this to the Chrisitans if you were true.

These are huge problems in what you bring to us.

568

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Can we lock the thread now? Since you guys have concluded after 30 pages that neither of you is talking sense according to the other.

569

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I quoted the Bible for you because you wrote that there was no evidence from "jewish books or any evidence from any book confirming this"(There was a reason I asked if He a.s literally raised the dead")

Whether you believe or not - evidence was provided for you.

570

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

The final messenger was sent to correct all the misconceptions that were created by rulers and their priests, so anything that was claimed in the name of Allah but was not according to deen of Allah is made very clear in the quran.

This is why one can use any other scripture in support of the quran but not against it. This is why what jews, christians, parsees, hindus etc etc believe about Allah is only valid so long as it is in accordance with the quran, why? Because the quran is in accordance to rules of wisdom in light of the universal realities.

This is why all nonmuslims have no leg to stand upon if they try to go against what the quran lays down firmly.

On what ground can one decide when the quran uses a word as a concrete reality and when it uses it as a conceptual reality? Also what is a metaphor in the quranic context? Are both the points compared not a reality as a concept or object? When the quran talks about things it drives home the point regardless it is about an objective reality or conceptual reality.

Word chemistry is a conceptual reality but chemicals are objective realities yet both are real in their own ways. Word chair is just a concept but the reality it names is an object in real world. Just as words and things they name both are important so are concepts and realities they represent.

So regardless we are conceptually wrong or wrong in regard to real things, we are wrong and likewise if we are right then we are right but the deciding factor is statement of a witness as well as the evidences that it talks about. Only if there is correspondence between the two we have the proof not otherwise. So the testimony of Allah has to correspond with realities of the universe he created therefore deliberately interpreting the quran against universal realities is wrong when there is proper interpretation is there. If it was not there the quran would have been proven false in no time.

571

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

**
Popat ** Your standard is not the Quran but the wahi received by MGAQ Ibn Chiragh Bibi – this way he could interpret the Quran to his heart’s content.

"The basis for our claim is not Hadith but Quran and that WAHI which comes to us. Yes in support we also quote those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. As for the REST OF THE HADITHs, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol 19 p.140)

Words of wisdom of Imam Ali (ra):

The Qur’an, is but ink and paper, and it does not speak for itself. Instead, it is human beings who give effect to it according to their limited personal judgments and opinions.” - the words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (ra)

Thus by rejecting the Ahadith material MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi had the liberty to interpret the Quran the way that suited him best.

He is your prophet and you are following his sunnah.

**
Popat** your belief is directly against the Quran as usual as most of your beliefs are. Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (ra) was never put the cross – According to Muslim beliefs some other person was put on the cross. Ahmadi beliefs as usual are at variance to that of the Muslims.

See the ayah:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not,* nor crucified him*, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- [4:157]

I don’t know how you find the contradiction between the two ahadith.

In hadith of Hz. Ibn Abbas (ra) that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) ascended to heaven through the opening of the house.

Whereas Hz. Ummul Momineen Saffiya (ra) when she visited Bait Al-Maqdis and finished prayers in Al-Aqsa Mosque she climbed up to Mt. Olives and prayed there as well and said: “this is the mountain from where Jesus (AS) was raised up to the heavens.

What’s your problem????

Hz. Ibn Abbas (ra) mentioned the house and Ummul Momineen Saffiya (ra) prayed on the Mt. Olives – She didn’t say that that was the spot. The house referred by Hz. Ibn Abbas (ra) was on that mountain!!!!

572

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

All prophets were men
All prophets required food to live
Isa a.s is NO MORE than a messenger
Prophets before Him have passed away
Isa and Mary a.s used to eat food.
How do you conclude that because prophets before Him have passed away, Isa a.s has not? How do you conclude that Isa a.s used to eat before and now is not eating and is sustained by some other means and is still alive ? You’re saying he is someone MORE than a messenger.

Honestly, I dont understand what you’re trying to tell in that diagram.

Isa and maryam a.s both ate. They are both either sustained in some other means (not just Jesus a.s).. or they both have passed away like other prophets have.

573

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Yes. You have proven your beliefs are different than mine. I'm talking about all the sahih ahadith. You do know there are ahadith indicating Isa a.s's death. Yet, you like to follow jews in this manner. They too used to hide the truth what was written in their scriptures. I'm not talking about selected ahadith.. i'm talking about Quran as a whole and ahadith as a whole. It is not possible for ahadith to have different meaning than what it says in Qur'an. That's where we differ. To you, there are 2 meanings of all the things.. thereby assuming there is contradiction in Qur'an. I dont do that. I see Quran as the perfect book and see all verses relating to one topic and then make a belief. Instead of using 1 verse of Quran and neglecting everything else. That's just not how Quran should be interpreted. Period

I have cleared you enough about how Jesus a.s's raising of dead does not mean literal meaning of raising dead. Only Allah can do this. But anyhow, like I said, apni dafli apna raag. You're free to make any belief you like... but then again, that is no grounds of proving his ascension to heavens.

Anyway, when ever you get time, read Quran sometimes and then reflect upon all the verses of Quran on any one topic. InshAllah, Allah will open up your heart.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Exactly as I thought ... Please study Venn Diagrams ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

You have contradicted the statement of MGAQ ... by saying you accept all the Sahih hadith ... Anyway ... I would like to see the hadith that you falsely claim that I am hiding ... that "indicate" the death of Sayyiduna Isa (AS) ... also are there other hadith that "clearly" state that Isa (AS) has died?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^^ because the diagram is all over the place. It's violating Quran .. but ok will study that. Thanks. :)
Meanwhile, you please study Quran and take out one meaning from Quran and not 2/3 different kinds. Thank you.

577

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

...that i design for you from the clay like the form of the bird then i breathe into it and it becomes a bird..(3:49)

so he designed and formed it from clay

its a clay bird

breathes into it

it becomes a bird

mrpopat what did Prophet Isa AS create from clay?

578

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

lol. Read the quote ibn sadique posted. You'll understand which kind of ahadith should be rejected. It's a common Islamic belief that Quran is the standard.. and ahadith are there to make better understanding of whats in Quran. Ahadith cannot contradict Quran.

Ok, so Quran says Isa a.s is dead. Ahadith such as the event of Miraj where Isa was seen with other dead prophets.
Ahadith which indicate two different physical features of Messiah of bani israel and Messiah sent to Muslims.

[QUOTE]
"O ye men, whoever amongst you worshipped Muhammad, let him know that Muhammad is dead, and whoever amongst you worshipped Allah, let him know that Allah is Living, there is no death for Him." (Bukhari, Volume 2, Chapter Manaqibe Abu Bakr)When Abu Bakr recited the verses of the Holy Quran and pointed to their meaning, the Companions realised what had happened. The Prophet had died. They began to cry. Omar is reported to have said that when Abu Bakr recited the verses out of the Holy Quran, and when their meaning suddenly dawned upon him, it seemed as though the verses had been revealed on that day, at that moment. His legs could no longer support him. He staggered and fell down in a paroxysm of grief.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
"Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years, and I see myself as only entering upon the beginning of the sixties." (Kanz al Ummal, part 6, p.120).
[/QUOTE]

read these for now :) since Quran gives us enough evidence of Isa a.s death, these ahadith gives us more proof of His death.

579

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Bird is also used as a metaphor in Qur'an. Term 'bird' is used for people who will return to their master no matter how far away they go. Humans are made of clay.. why do you think no other word is used but clay ? These are the people who are loyal and will not choose wrong path once they accept the truth.

Read this.

[QUOTE]
2:260 And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believed?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.’
[/QUOTE]

Understand what the verse is talking about. Abraham asking Lord how He gives life to the dead (this is spiritually dead, as its evident from the rest of the verse). Allah tells him to take four birds ( which are His disciples, who accepted Him whole heartedly, which are attached to Him ) and then put them all on a hill.. once you call them for your help.. they will come to you in haste.

Look at the way how Allah explains. He uses metaphors. If you were to take this verse literally as well, then there really is no proof from Allah's side on how he raise dead. Take 4 birds and make them attached to you. Abraham is asking how He raise dead ? Birds are already alive ? That is why you need to see it from another angle.. Allah raise the dead physically as well as spiritually. However, physical is only done on the day of judgement and that too, only by Allah alone. Whereas, spiritually, Allah raise dead through His prophets. Those who accept prophets are raised spiritually. They care less about the struggle they have to go through. They care not what hardship is yet to come.They are steadfast, show patience and strive in good deeds etc . Those who dont accept, Allah says their hearts are sealed.

Hope this helps. Jesus a.s designed the form of bird from clay..clay which human is made from.

580

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

where did you get that translation from!, we can go on to that later, but you've ran from the question i asked. your reply was not helpful. reply directly. you see when it gets into the basic question stuff you go walkabouts with your answer. either your trying to fool me or you do not actually fully believe the position you are supporting

try again, try to give direct interpretation and deny what you deny with a clear denial. lets see you do it (i think we both know why)

**...that i design for you from the clay like the form of the bird then i breathe into it and it becomes a bird..(3:49)

so he designed and formed it from clay

its a clay bird

breathes into it

it becomes a bird

mrpopat what did Prophet Isa AS create from clay?**