Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

'Possibility' of exception is always there for you.

If there's any verse in Quran saying something other than 'therein shall you live', then yeah, exception is there and that we should interpret that verse to reconcile with 'therein shall you live' . But you're creating exception with no basis. If there is no verse saying that humans CAN live elsewhere too, then you will have no exception in this verse.

You can say exception is there only if you find another verse somewhere in Qur'an saying something else, if not, then we should not add any exception in it. Someone cannot be said to be brought forth from somewhere else.. Allah said 'therein shall you be brought forth'.

[QUOTE]
As I said, Adam(as) lived in heaven and if he can live in heaven without being dead, then Isa(AS) can live in heaven without being dead. Iblis ... You have always negated him being a person of Jinn ... You are now interpreting him to some thing of a negative force instead of a creature like us.

Remember the likeness of Isa (AS) is that of Adam (AS) ? Adam (AS), Hawwa (AS) and Iblis none of them lived their whole entire lives on Earth, so it can permissible for Isa (AS), to be in a similar situation.

I say again that verse allows exceptions ....
[/QUOTE]

It is a very poor example. Allah created adam and then after that sent him to Earth and told him that therein shall you live. Now it is very illogical to say that because he 'used' to live there, Isa a.s can too. When Allah himself is saying that now there is abode for you in the Earth, therein shall you live. Please see this other verse as well.

2:36 But Satan caused them both to slip by means of it and drove them out of the state in which they were. And We said: ‘Go forth; some of you are enemies of others, *and for you there is an abode in the earth and a provision for a time.
*
So you see, it is in your mind to like to create exception without any base. Will you create exception in this verse saying this verse is only limited to Adam a.s ?
My question is very logical if only you spend some time thinking about it. I'm questioning the life of Isa a.s based on the verses i presented. Unless and until you show me an exception based on another verse, till then you must admit that there are no exceptions.

[QUOTE]
Again your understanding of heaven and the event of eating of the tree is flawed. It is the Christian who believes in the original sin and we are sent born in sin to cleanse ourselves making heaven forbidden to us .... No ....not Muslims ... ...we believe Adam (AS) was sent here to fulfil his purpose, that he (AS) was forgiven before being sent down.

And there is no mistake except in you mind and limited understaning of Arabic and the Muslim tradition ... The exception is present in those verses ...
[/QUOTE]

I never said i'm a believer of the first sin. Maybe I left the impression that thats what I meant. Im sorry. What i meant was, once Allah sends down human on Earth, and told that therein shall you live.. making it illogical to believe that a person who is alive goes to heaven. We cannot say that nauzubillah allah forgot these verses that was told to Adam a.s when allah took isa a.s up alive. No, Allah does not make mistakes. He is pure from any flaws. His laws are absolute.

How is it that isa a.s who is believed to be a human just like us is ALIVE and ALSO NOT on Earth ? The belief of a person living and not on Earth clearly negates the verse stating that 'therein shall you live'. Unless you tell me he a.s is on Earth then yeah everything will make sense. Keep in mind, here i'm not talking about the longevity of life but rather questioning life itself outside of Earth based on 2 of the verses ( one presented in this post ).

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

If verse allows exception then these questions are raised :

1) 'therein shall you live' >> exception : there are chances people CAN live outside the Earth.
2) 'therein shall you die' >> exception : People do die in space too.
3) 'therein shall you be brought forth' >>exception : Allah can brought forth from anywhere.

apply these exceptions on Isa a.s ..

1)>> i dont know how you would answer if a person is alive and is living outside the Earth
2)>> if people do die in space, then He a.s must be dead since he is somewhere other than Earth.
3)>> if Allah can brought forth from anywhere, then why does Isa a.s have to come to Earth and die and be brought forth from here? why can he not be brought forth from anywhere ? The fact that you DO believe Isa a.s to come ON Earth to die, the fact that you DO believe that he a.s will be brought forth from Earth ( agreeing to 2 of the points of the verse ) , then you must also believe that in order for him to be alive, he must be on Earth.. or else anywhere he must be, he a.s must be dead.

Kindly think about it.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

The exception is inherent in the Arabic language of that verse ... It does not need another verse to show this ... It seems however you are making up your own conditions without knowledge ... Please show me where you have got the idea that exceptions are taken where something contrary is being said in ANOTHER verse ONLY... I've been telling you from day one that ths verse is a general statement it is not phrased in a way that makes it specific and limiting ... Now to prove me wrong you need to find evidence showing that verse is limiting and harbours no possible exception. Can you do that?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Answer 1 - Allah does as He Wills

2) please explain this to me ... The reasoning in your argument seems disjointed from your argument's conclusion. How did you conclude Isa (AS) MUST be dead, from the idea that people CAN die in space? You have forgotten 1) above ... Where people can also LIVE in space as well as DIE in it. And space is only an example.

3) he (AS) does not have to come to Earth for that reason ... For Isa (AS) ... His life has been mapped out for us in the signs of the end times ... And from these we draw conclusions such as ... Isa (AS) being buried in Madinah ... Next to our dear prophet Muhammad (SAW) ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat,

Seems u r always in hurry whenever u r using keyboard. U have the right to take u r time before you pass any comments.

Anyhow u said that my post was irrelevent. oky than leave that post a side. But I think it is somehow related to this topic. Well, If u read history than u'll came to know that the Jewish, Christians, Muslims and many many other claimed to be massiah or jesus or both too, not in sense that they were claiming to be massiah or jesus or both in present but also in future too. For Example:

*deuteronomy 18:15
*
"Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of they brether, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;"
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him."

Who will be that Prophet? Christian believed jesus was crucified but in scripture, its written the prophet will be among of them? Is that is why claimaint falsely claimant?

Hadith clearly stated not in single but in many many different hadiths that "Jesus son of Mary a.s." will shortly descend among us. So the claimaint among muslims why neglected the hadith?

Neglecting hadith means to derail translations of the verses from Holy Qur'an for their best interest or as it suits them for worldly affairs. That is what I believe happened with other scriptures.

Declaring Prophet Isa a.s no longer alive so the they can claim the prophency / massiah.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I only say so because I'm taking out the meaning of that verse to which you do not agree. I said, i will only change the way i understood that verse if only you can show me any other verse in Quran disproving my understanding of verse 7:25. It is a common practice to not interpret one verse of Quran if another verse has something completely different to say. We reconcile the understanding of a topic by looking at those 2 verses. Qur'an cannot have contradictions. That is my belief. The burden of proof lies on your shoulder to bring me any verse of Qur'an disproving my understanding of the 7:25 verse. Only then, i'll think twice before concluding the meaning of that verse...and trust me, I WILL think twice about the understanding of that verse only if my understanding goes against ANY of the other verse of Qur'an. Just saying that it has exception in it is not enough, and I think you know it too. Can you show me any verse showing me that there 'is' a possibility of humans living outside Earth ( needing no oxygen,food,water etc ), ? .. Show me from Qur'an. To me, the hujjat or the final word is of Allah's book. I base every belief of mine from Qur'an. Show me, and i'm with you on this one, and this verse will never be brought up again.

I only said what the exceptions could have meant. You disproving my point by saying if i dont know that people also die in space? .. My argument is very much to the point. I still dont understand why do you not get what I'm saying..?

You can ONLY "live" in space by taking proper measure, it's not a place for a human to live!.. just like how you CAN live in water by taking oxygen cylinders. You're either not getting it or you're pretending not to understand. If Isa a.s is alive and is NOT on Earth, then he must have with him an unlimited supply of oxygen up there somewhere... And him being up there is making the point of Qur'an weak when it says 'therein shall you live'. You give christians the chance to make fun of Qur'an.

You can "DIE" in space also as you said. Then that means, there's a possibility of him dead too. Why do you not see both sides of the coin ??

If you say Allah can do whatever he wills, then i completely agree with you. But the verse 7:25 was said to Adam a.s, long long before the coming of Isa a.s. Are you saying that Allah was nauzubillah unaware of this verse or this law of His that only Earth is the abode in which humans will live? It is not the law of humans that keeps needing amendments, but here we're talking about law of Allah, whose laws are so perfect, that once he makes, he needs not to change or make amendments in it. It is an absolute.

If you need time to think over the verse, then take your time.. here, we are not having debate about who will win. It's about religion. We should be very calm in understanding eachother's views. I'm not here to win anything. I kindly ask you, if whether whatever i'm asking from you are not valid questions? Should I not be thinking about it? Does Islam stop me from pondering every verse of Qur'an and ask questions where I feel?.. honestly, i dont know about it, but it strengthens my belief in Islam.. I'm not the type of person who if someone say this is the belief and I believe in it ignoring my own research about a certain belief. Try questioning.. it broadens your understanding.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace LKK,
with all due respect, I'm never in a hurry to reply, neither am I here to impose my view on anyone. I back up whatever I say with Qur'an. Also, my dear friend, I told you earlier, that your questions are irrelevant for this thread. Read the name of the thread which you chose. "details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an... "

Like I said before, if any question is is irritating you, you're more than welcome to open a thread about it or PM me any question and inshAllah, with whatever knowledge I have, i will answer you.. again, not with the intention of winning, but rather to understand your side and to explain my side. Open thread on any topic and I will inshAllah participate.. but this thread at the moment has nothing to do with Messiah or false claimants.
Thanks.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[QUOTE]
if only you can show me any other verse in Quran disproving my understanding of verse 7:25
[/QUOTE]

salam alaikum mr popat,

did you say you believed the miraaj, what ever (physical or soul) you believe went to heaven disproves your understanding of 7:25 imo

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Wa alaikum assalam warahmatullah,

My belief : miraaj was a spiritual journey
My reasons : can be given in details

Verse 7:25 and 2:36 is talking about 'physical' life.

Believing in spiritual journey of huzur s.a.w does not disprove my understanding of verse 7:25.

All of my questions are if we take Muhammad PBUH's journey to be physical and Isa a.s to be physically alive outside of Earth.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Hats off Mr. Popat. You have a lot of patience my friend.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Your other verse was already mentioned ...

Sahih International
O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ]. 55:33

You didn't accept it then so I don't expect you to accept it now ... The Arabic of 7:25 is NOT absolute, to say that it is absolute is to put meaning in it that it doesn't have ... If only you studied Arabic.

This you can only live in space by proper measure ... Does not negate living in space ...space was used as an example, Isa (AS) can live in heaven just as easily as Adam (AS) lived in heaven before coming to Earth.

I've highlighted a statement above ... It summarises you perfectly ... You are so desperate to pin this verse as some sort of proof that Isa (AS) did not ascend ... It must because someone from your camp very high up had initially made this blunder ... and now you are struggling to make it fit ... The point you initially made is MUST be dead, now you are pleading me to acknowledge a mere possibility of it ... Linguistically I have always stated the possibility that people can die in space ... Rather it was you who was resisting that idea ...remember our conversations earlier ... I was merely defending our position ... Remember also this whole thread is my defence ... It is not my attack on your belief, rather it is my defence of your attack on the idea ascension.

So who is the one being patient here?

I cannot accept that Isa (AS) is dead, because our Hadith state his ascension ... You say the Hadith must be rejected because they CONFLICT with verses like 7:25 ... I think I have been arguing that they don't conflict ... That is all this debate has been about ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

peace LKK,
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him."
means a prophet from among a nation related to bani Israel and he will be LIKE Moses. The prophecy is a bit vague but clear enough for clear-minded people. The vagueness comes from two terms 'from among your brothers' and 'Like thee'. Jews, Christians and Muslims interpret them differently.
We muslims believe that the subject prophecy is about our holy prophet(pbuh) but both Jews and Christians have their own
justifications to reject prophet Mohammad(pbuh). Why?
Who said we neglect hadith but if you look at hadiths especially hadith of descent close to Damascus and Imam malik's hadith of Dajjal and Isa(as) circumbulating the kaaba, you can clearly see that it has metaphors. No rocket science needed to get to this conclusion.
Moreover, we don't put hadith and fiqah and opinion of scholars above clear statements of holy Quran.

[QUOTE]

Christian believed jesus was crucified but in scripture, its written the prophet will be among of them? Is that is why claimaint falsely claimant?

[/QUOTE]

Couldn't get it. What do you want to say? say it clearly.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace kchughtai

I agree that Muslims take this prophecy to be for Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ... but I find the above statement somewhat is very pertinent to this thread ... I have highlighted it ...

Breaking down what you said:

The order of priority is:

Clear statement of Qur'an
Hadith
Fiqh

This is exactly the order we also profess to ... so again I agree with you ... But ... how is it that despite both of us using the same priorities we arrive at very different conclusions?

Before you respond let me offer some reasons ...

A) What we see as clear may not be what you see as clear verses and vice-versa

B) Hadith by yourselves are rejected on the basis that you see "clear" verses going against them ... but since we do not necessarily see the verses as clear we don't feel the need to reject the hadith.

C) You see our acceptance of hadith as giving priority to them over the Qur'an, but we see it as a natural disposition to find the balance between hadith and Qur'an ... we don't reject hadith based on our understanding of Qur'an ... because hadith could be well referenced and in such a case they gain importance and authority.

The mu'tazila and other aqeedah groups also do this ... they will reject hadith even if they are authentic and well referenced ...

D) This creates another shift that we see - which is others favouring their understanding of ayat and banishing hadith rather than looking for the situation where both the hadith and ayat fit together ... The Ahl-u-Sunnah (Mainly Ash'aris and Maturidis) will always take the position of lowest possible disruption ... and will always use rules and traditions to determine what verse is clear and what verse is not rather than using our logic or best gut feeling to say this verse is mutashabih and this is not ...

Just from the conversation between Mr.Popat and myself you can see how much disruption it causes to accept his rendition of the verse 7:25 ... One would have to conclude that space travel and residence in space is a hoax ... despite plenty of repeatable evidence for it.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

wrongly liked your post. Doesn't matter.

I'm talking about people who believed in a monster Prophet who will kill the swine and break the cross, but then realized that the Holy Qur'an has proven the death of Isa (as).

You were speaking about a "just ruler". Is it just to kill and break in literal sense?

I ask you this, you as a muslim and a believer of Muhammad Mustafa (saw). Does it make sense to that Isa (as) comes instead of Khatam-ul-Nabiyeen, the Seal of the Prophets, the guidance for mankind? Someone from the Ummah had to come and not someone from the Bani Israel.

Verse 145 of Sure Al Imran is clear and says that (all) messengers before Muhammad (saw) have passed away. I don't know what is there left to discuss!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

:D
It does not matter what evidence I show you. You have made up a belief and now to defend that belief, you will keep on bringing out exceptions from the verses. In that case, i see no hope for you.

You also like to tell me how I do not have knowledge of Arabic language when you find nothing else to say.

From my side, I DO say that He a.s must be dead if hes not on earth. But I was merely encouraging you to think about the 'possibility' of his death if hes not on Earth.

It is not me whose struggling, but rather you, who when have no answer tells me 1) I need to learn Arabic 2) there are exceptions.

Though, the exception is only because you have to adjust your belief in there. The verse is as simple as it can get. You live on Earth, this is an abode for you to live, anywhere else you die. Therefore, herein shall you live, and herein shall you die, pointing at the fact that if you dare try going outside of Earth, you die!. Then, I dont know about you.. but majority of Muslims say that Prophet Isa a.s WILL come to "Earth" to die.

Yes, the verse negates the concept of someone coming from heavens bodily alive. It is not against someone coming but rather someone coming from somewhere outside of Earth, 'physically' alive.

Ahadith mentioning ibn e maryam's arrival does not contradict Qur'an. Quran says that if a messenger come to you rehearsing my signs to you, then for sure support him.

Qur'an openly announces Jesus of Nazareth dead. You cannot keep bringing out exceptions in every verse provided to you. Ahadith also indicates His death. No hadith do we find mentioning about his physical ascension. No verse do we find supporting that idea. In contrary, we have verses and ahadith telling us that He a.s himself is dead.

Muslim Ummah as you should know are called the like of bani israel. Muhammad PBUH as you should know is called the like of Musa a.s. There are ahadith that you must know which says that my ummah will be acting just like jews. Scholars and sufi's of Islam are called the like of the prophets sent to bani israel. In order for this whole comparison to be complete, we must wait for a Messiah sent to Muslim Ummah just like how a Messiah was sent to bani israel at their end times. Therefore, we do not neglect any hadith mentioning the arrival of Messiah. We just reject that the same prophet which was sent to bani israel will not be coming back, since he a.s is dead.

this is again poor analogy. When Allah is comparing Adam a.s with Jesus a.s, he is telling christians that if not having a father is worth calling Him God, then Adam a.s qualifies more for that position since he was created without father or mother. Then the verse says, Allah created him out of clay and he says be and it is. If Jesus a.s was born in a womb of virgin mary, on Earth, then how do you see the comparison of Adam a.s with Jesus a.s ?

You r not getting it. After adam a.s was sent down, it was after that God said therein shall you live. Jesus a.s came way after. Up till the time of Jesus a.s, no one went to heavens alive to God, but its only Jesus a.s who did. Strange but ok. No one else ever went out to God the way Jesus have. Ok.

I've answered to the verse 55:33 earlier. What is authority ? authority is the knowledge that Allah gives to humans to get to know what is out there... You can also not 'live' in water except by Allah's authority.

[QUOTE]
chacha_Ghalib*Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders*
Hats off Mr. Popat. You have a lot of patience my friend.

[/QUOTE]

thanks chacha ghalib. We both have been patient. But for me, my job is to keep repeating same thing over and over, and keep praying for them. You never know what one thing may soften their heart and for once, they start thinking with their own minds rather than someone dictating to them their beliefs with no questions asked.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

:eek: What is your proof of this allegation?

:eek: What is your proof of this assertion? When Adam (AS) was in heaven alive - how did he manage that without being dead?

Adam (AS), Hawwa (AS), Iblis and the Snake - how do we know this “therein you shall live” was not just meant for them personally and applies to the whole of mankind? If you look at the narrative Allah (SWT) is only addressing a maximum of 4 individuals … But here we are talking about Isa (AS) … Unless you can provide proof that this verse applies to mankind in general then you cannot make it binding … on the whole of mankind …

It is nearly impossible to gather the meaning just by reading it … some background of the hadith and traditions is needed … You however are choosing to ignore those traditions or at the very best choosing random minority opinions.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Sorry to be bit off the topic – your posts reeks of pseudo-intellectualism – If any matter is presented to us with evidence from Quran and backed by authentic Sunnah or sayings of the Prophet (saw) WE SAY AMMANAH WA SADQNA.

Your leaders has set their beliefs on their OWN UNDERSTANDING AND INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN and its your prerogative to believe in them without even questioning them.

As to your point that your jamaat encourages it’s follower to question the leaders, following link will debunk your claim: Those who question are hounded out. It is a well controlled Cult.

Confessions of a Cult Girl | Ahmadiyya

We do not use limited human rationality, which you are championing, to explain ways of Allah (saw) – Rationality is a useful tool but NOT the means to end to Understand and interpret Quran al Kareem.

First of all Quran explains itself
Secondly we use the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to understand the Quran
Thirdly we use the Ijma As-Sahabah
Forthly, Qiyas and Ijtihad

Human Rationality cannot be the first tool to understand and interpret the Quran – Rationality was debunked in the famous debate – if you have not come across it, read it here: Fate of 3 brothers. Abu Ali al-Jubbaii,leader of Mutazilia (Rationalists) was defeated by his one-time student was Abu Hasan al-Ashari (ra).

History of Islam/The Mutazilites-Asharites debate - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

We too pray that Allah (swt) gives you and others like you the tawfeek and courage to take off the blinders/blinkers so that you can see the truth. Please use your own mind and break off the shackles to feel of the freedom to believe in Islam.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

The proof is shown in your behavior of continuing to create exceptions in the verses provided to you, so that your belief remains intact.

Proof of this assertion that you highlighted is >> God created Adam. Once he ate the fruit, it was ‘after’ that God said your abode is on Earth. Therein shall you live.

A bit too late to ask me if they’re just limited to 4 individual or everyone, dont you think ? Why I believe its for all mankind ?? because we being children of Adam have always remained on Earth to survive. Yes, we can go out in space, in water, but with the authority (knowledge given by Allah) of Allah. We see not a single instance in which a person can remain alive without any proper measure anywhere outside of Earth.

Now, i’ll tell you now.. i DO have an answer about you asking me how Adam a.s survived in heaven. But what surprises me in your argument is that you knowingly just assume that if such a thing happened with Adam, so can the same happen with Jesus a.s too. I said it before too, that Jesus came way after Adam a.s. He was given the body who was in need of food. A body just like ours.. needing everything a physical body needs.. Read this verse..:

25:07 And they say, ‘What is the matter with this Messenger that he eats food, and walks in the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him that he might be a warner with him?

21:08 And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever.

Again, my point of bringing these verses too is to show you that all messengers are humans, who use to perform every tasks like us humans. All the rules that are designed for humans from Allah are for messengers too. No body goes out of Earth without taking proper measure and still be alive, whether it be 4000 year old humans, or humans of this era or any messenger. They will need food and oxygen to survive. You die without it. Theres no rocket science in that and neither is there any exception in it.

6:35 And if their aversion is grievous to thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven, and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had Allah enforced His will, He could surely have brought them together into the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge

Theres also verse in Qur’an (sorry cant remember which one), in which disbelievers asked holy prophet pbuh to bring book from heaven.. the reply was that he pbuh is just a messenger and that Allah is paak from it. Your beliefs are such that it shows as if on one hand quran says something, and on another hand, quran says something completely different.

Ask your scholars about this verse in which allah says ‘therein shall you live’. How is it that hes not even aging either where ever he is?.. like c’mon man! Just a mere belief which has nothing to do with Islam should not be part taken as part of Islam!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Evidence has always been presented to you from Quran and ahadith. But you people always choose to take out exceptions from it. Allah says in Quran that even if i were to show them every sign from my side, even then they will not believe. Allah says in quran that disbelievers swear upon their Gods that if we see just one sign from God, we will join the believers, but God says that no matter what Allah shows them, they will not believe.

Thank you for the link. Though, this by no means is a measure of someones truthfulness or them being false. If you show me one website like this, i can show you 10 against every single website in which people are actually leaving Islam, mocking at Islam etc. But that’s not the hujjat. My hujjat and my standard in which we base our beliefs are Quran. So, kindly, keep those websites to yourself. 1 leaves, 100 accept the true Islam… but we have never brought this issue to show our truthfulness.

Rationality is important. Quran contains mohkam verses and mutashaabihaat verses. Mutashabihaat verses when interpreted should be in complete agreement with mohkam verses of Quran… or else, we know we have made a mistake in interpreting it.

Quran explains itself.. agree!. No verse contradicts any other verse.
Yes, sunnah and ahadith are important to understand Quran. Absolutely.
Yes, Ijma of as-sahabah.. the first ijmah as we know it was that all prophets before Muhammad pbuh had died.
Yes, ijtihad is important too.. in which your logic is involved.

Instead of coming up with all this. How about we work on getting an answer about a verse we’re talking about here? Maybe you could help?

‘therein shall you live, therein shall you die, therein shall you be brought forth’ 7:25

I have still not gotten a satisfying enough answer.. but have been getting ‘there are exceptions’. Kindly help if you can.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Mr.Popat

In post #55 you said:

I asked you to prove it … #56

My shock is because you are accusing me of a lie - that there is no such thing as exception or absolute statements in Arabic …
I asked you to prove to me that **this verse or any verse in Arabic does not inherently contain exception, or there is no such thing as harf of emphasis - tawkeed … show me grammatically I am wrong
…

**instead you post this …

:nahi:

Nothing else is more important for me in this discussion !!! … Get ready for volumes of grammatical proof on my basis for Arabic grammar exceptions and emphasis, negation and logic … completely isolated from this verse … it is as taught in the Madinah books … !!!

This verse 7:25 it could have been a pot shot that you take at the established Islamic understanding of Ascension of Isa (AS) - if it was coming from you - you would have left it alone by now … but it is coming from way higher … you know that the argument is flimsy … but then the ones who have given you this argument are arguing on flimsy ground … it hurts you …

You started this discussion off saying this was a clear Qur’anic verse - no ambiguity and we have worked our way through many queries already … then you want me to concede a “possibility” … how can I even concede that - I actually believe in our hadith and traditions - unlike yourself.

The Qur’an talks about Ascension and the hadith talk about Descension … How clear is that ??? What goes up must come down … It is as clear as that …

Rather your argument is that mention of Ascension in the Qur’an is really the act of being raised in rank - as if a prophet is not already raised in rank !!! :nahi:

Knowing there are verses of Descent in hadith you ask - where is Ascension in hadith??? Knowing that our argument for Ascension is in the Qur’an … How coy !!!

You interpret what you want and don’t interpret what you want reject hadith as you wish and belie others who tell the truth … that is sick dude …