Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace,
I’m not gonna let this go either. I want you explaining this verse the way you understand it then.
Yes, because Quran says therein shall we live. That’s how i’m taking it as. We “AS HUMANS” are bound to “live” on this Earth. Did i deny the possibility of any other ‘creature’ outside of Earth? No, i did not. If you read a verse before *7:25.. it is like this : He said, ‘Go forth, some of you being enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time.’ then 7:25 itself is : He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’
*
Now, if you keep insisting that i’m emphasizing that no one can live outside of this earth, then yes, i only say what Quran is telling me. No human being can live outside of this Earth. For one to be alive outside of this Earth is by means of taking earthly stuff with them.
Let me break it down for you so you can understand.
you claim to be a follower of the holy book Quran
When a verse if presented to you negating your belief, you start questioning the verse itself, rather than interpreting it properly ( if you think im doing it wrong ).
On one hand, Allah is saying ‘therein shall you live’, on another hand you’re asking ME if no one can live outside of Earth.
I said, if you question me based on the Quranic verse, you’re not questioning me but rather the validity of the verse.
Yes, I’m an ahmadi.. and unlike some sects of Islam, we are told and encouraged to ponder upon the beliefs which our leaders have set based on Quran and ahadith and if we have even an iota of doubt, we can ask them from anything to everything. Alhamdulillah, we do not keep saying yes yes to anything or any belief told to us blindly.. we are encouraged to research more about it and ask the higher authorities of any doubts concerning any belief. The book you quoted above is a great one. Keep reading! .. theres no point talking about it since i NEVER denied the possibility of life in any other planet (wont be humans). Though, here we’re talking about HUMANS. Read 7:24-25. I’m not more intelligent than the ones who have written books.. but my views are certainly parallel to what they have said, as far as I know. And i do research in my spare time to have more knowledge about certain topics..
Again, the verse you quoted, I HAVE an answer to that.. but really, i told you not to unknowingly have enmity against Quran. Your this behaviour may led non muslims to mock at quran saying that it has contradictions. On one hand Allah says u cannot live outside of this earth, and then on another hand hes telling you to pass beyond the regions of heavens and earth. Like I said, I DO have an answer to that.. but at this point I want you explaining why God said ‘therein shall you live’ ?
Bringing another verse in response to another verse shows that quran has contradictions. Clear one verse with me then ill tell you what the verse you mentioned means.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mr.Popat,
The list of messiah claimants of those people who have been said to be a messiah either by themselves or by their followers is started since 5 BCE – 30 CE. What you say about those false messiah claimants?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
^ not relevant. You're suppose to answer me when you said i got caught red handed.
To have discussion about Messiah, open up another thread and i'll answer your every question with the best of my knowledge. Let this thread be a discussion about interpretation of verses. Thanks.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace Mr.Popat
Ok, so now you have changed the definition of the verse yet again … First, it was “therein you shall live”, which according to you means “NO ONE can live outside the Earth” , now you are giving further qualification, and interpretation by saying, “no HUMAN can live outside the Earth”,
you seriously want me to take your version as a mere reading? You are clearly confused and reinterpreting upon each hurdle.
Let me refer back to the ‘Al Islam’ website …
**Jam-'i-him is the Arabic expression in this verse which specifically speaks of bringing together of life on earth and the life elsewhere. When this meeting of the two will take place is not specified, nor is it mentioned whether it will happen here on earth or elsewhere. One thing however, is definitely stated: this event will most certainly come to pass whenever God so desires.
**The website clearly believes there is a possibility of Man living outside the Earth … I agree with them too … Let’s look at verse 55:33 again …
Sahih International
O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ].
You see I’m not denying the verse you give … I’m merely contextualising it with another verse …
Mr.Popat … Any verse from the Quran does not negate my belief that verse is my belief … Instead of trying to make it take a meaning I wish it to take like you are doing, I look at it and in context to other verses, something you have clearly not done, also, I look to see from the rules in Arabic whether exceptions to the statement are possible …
Rather you so desperately want it to take a meaning where you want it to oppose the ascension of Isa(AS) that you are stumbling … The verse itself has nothing to do with Isa(as), specifically.
Arabic if you study it that I strongly recommend has certain ways to SPECIFY a statement …these ways are either by using terms of Tawkeed, emphasis … Words like “Kullu”, “inna”, etc … Also there will be negative sentences … Such as “la ilaha ilAllah” … There is no ilah except Allah … Negation plus exception in the tahleel statement shows a very strong identification of only one possibility.
Another way is when Arabic uses a whole new sentence to qualify a previous one, they occur one after the other … Such as in Surah Fatihah …
The path taken by those who earned your favour, not by those who went … Here although a positive statement is being made the negation was used to qualify the positive one … The structure ONLY … Can be invoked by swapping around certain words and placing Harf before them, like in IyyakaNa’budu … Which means “Only You we worship” … The normal construct for “You we worship” is “Na’buduka”.
Logically also if I make a statement “I ate the apple” … It does not mean from here that I did not eat a banana … Unless I say " I only ate the apple" …
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
once again,
what is with verse 145 of Sura-Al Imran?
And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.
People asked, why should Isa (as) come back? If a Messenger shall comeback, then it can only be Muhamnmad (saw) or one of his servants, not a Prophet from the Israelites.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
How come that when the phrase “Qad Khalat” appears in other verses of the Quran in connection with a person it means “passed away” i.e. died, but here it means ascended to Heaven also? How come that when you look up the term “Khala” in an Arabic Lexicon, it means to pass away or die i.e. “Mawt”? How come in all translations, it’s translated as passed away or died? What did Hazrat Abu Bakr RA say after the Prophet’s (PBUH) death again?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
How come that when the phrase "Qad Khalat" appears in other verses of the Quran in connection with a person it means "passed away" i.e. died, but here it means ascended to Heaven also? How come that when you look up the term "Khala" in an Arabic Lexicon, it means to pass away or die i.e. "Mawt"? How come in all translations, it's translated as passed away or died? What did Hazrat Abu Bakr RA say after the Prophet's (PBUH) death again?
**whoever worshipped Muhammad (saw), Muhammad (saw) is dead, but who worshippes God, God never dies.
What would be the difference between Man and God if Man can't die? Didn't Massih-e-Moud Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) slay Dajjal by proving through the Qur'An and the Ahadith that Isa (as) is dead and so not Son of God?
**
They impatiently urge you to bring about evil before good, while there has already occurred before them similar punishments [to what they demand]. And indeed, your Lord is full of forgiveness for the people despite their wrongdoing, and indeed, your Lord is severe in penalty.
Similar situations [as yours] have passed on before you, so proceed throughout the earth and observe how was the end of those who denied.
Here are just 2 examples to show that the term Qad Khalat does mean “passed on” - but “passed on” does not necessarily mean “die”. If it meant the same exactly as dead then the word “mawt” would be used … There is no reason to use the words “Qad Khalat” if they didn’t hold a variant meaning that includes death, but also Ascension.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
**whoever worshipped Muhammad (saw), Muhammad (saw) is dead, but who worshippes God, God never dies.
What would be the difference between Man and God if Man can't die? Didn't Massih-e-Moud Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) slay Dajjal by proving through the Qur'An and the Ahadith that Isa (as) is dead and so not Son of God?
**
Irrelevant - Muslims don't worship Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ...
The difference between a man a God is more than Longevity of life ... this is an absurd question when you know that Muslims believe that all created souls shall taste death ... eventually.
To answer your aimless question here goes:
God does not sleep - Man does
God does not get taken by tiredness - Man does
God does not forget - Man does
God is not born - Man is born
God does not take partners or relatives - Man does
God is not bound by time - Man is bound by time
ETC ETC ETC
You see longevity of life is something minor ... So suppose there was a man that couldn't die hypothetically ... what an absurd statement you make that I have highlighted in green above because you have missed all those other points about how God is so Unique.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Irrelevant - Muslims don't worship Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ...
The difference between a man a God is more than Longevity of life ... this is an absurd question when you know that Muslims believe that all created souls shall taste death ... eventually.
To answer your aimless question here goes:
God does not sleep - Man does
God does not get taken by tiredness - Man does
God does not forget - Man does
God is not born - Man is born
God does not take partners or relatives - Man does
God is not bound by time - Man is bound by time
ETC ETC ETC
You see longevity of life is something minor ... So suppose there was a man that couldn't die hypothetically ... what an absurd statement you make that I have highlighted in green above because you have missed all those other points about how God is so Unique.
How do you know Muslims don't worship Muhammad (saw)? There is no absurdity in my question. What an absurd statement of yours that you call my statement absurd. Where did I say God is not unique?
You assume here that I make no difference between God and Man. What a aimless and absurd observation.
Thank you for strengthening my faith once again...
you owe me a explanation for verse 145 of Sura Al-Imran by the way and you have missed my post completely...OFFSIDE!
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
How do you know Muslims don't worship Muhammad (saw)? There is no absurdity in my question. What an absurd statement of yours that you call my statement absurd. Where did I say God is not unique?
You assume here that I make no difference between God and Man. What a aimless and absurd observation.
Thank you for strenghtening my faith once again...
you owe me a explanation for verse 145 of Sura Al-Imran by the way and you have missed my post completely...OFFSIDE!
Peace Bigboi
Well if Muslims are anything like the name and title suggests then we don't worship Muhammad (SAW) ... But more explicitly according to the aqeedah of the Muslims - Ahl-us-Sunnah wa-l-Jama .... The aqeedah's of Imam Maturidi, Imam Ash'ari, At-Tahawi, or even by extension Athari, Wasitiya ... all of these creedal formulations forbid the worship of any other than Allah (SWT). And these aqaaid were established upon dalaail such as the statement of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (RA) the one you posted ...
How can we be accused of shirk? I don't even think we were accused of that by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed ... called other things may be ... but I don't think we were called Mushrik ... were we?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Post # 8 >> This is what i wrote >>
Post # 19 >> I further said >>
Like I said, i know you’re frustrated. But this is no way of falsely accusing me that i’m interpreting it differently in diff posts. I’ve said it all along that i’m talking about HUMANS. I purposely told you to read a verse before 7:24 to understand what Allah is talking about. You cannot say that i’ve changed my stance on anything. Read everything when i write it. Thanks.
In that paragraph, what you missed which was right after where you stopped was :
Again, the book does not deny the possibility of some other form of living anywhere else. The contact with humans with some other speicies living somewhere else COULD be either physical OR through communication. Physical again in a sense that if humans tend to search for them in space, they’ll have to take earthly temperature, food and everything else to remain alive ! You’re just trying to divert the whole discussion here. Everything I’m saying is again in parallel to the website. You are confusing yourself when you say that the website believes the possibility of “MAN” living outside of earth. No where does it say anything about a MAN!
Again, I told you that i DO have an answer to the verse you’re telling me. One thing i told u before and im telling you now again. When you bring another verse in response to a verse given to you, you’re telling the non muslims that there is contradiction in quran. You’re not questioning me but rather questioning Quran. I WILL answer to this verse if you clear me first the verse we’re talking about.
55-33 O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ]
If you keep insisting me to answer about that verse sure i can do that. I ask you what does allah mean ‘except by authority’. Tell me whats the authority? Have we seen humans going in space recently..? yes we have.. authority is Allah’s giving the knowledge to men to calculate, to reach out to different planets, again, knowledge includes, how to get there, what to take with them to survive, how to come back..this is all included in knowledge.
Scientists and philosophers who are proud of the great advance they have made in material sciences have been warned that they cannot, however high they might rise in knowledge and science, so completely comprehend the laws of nature governing the universe as to overpower and master them. Try as they might , but they will fail in their quest. It may also point to the making of rockets by means of which Russians and Americans seek to reach heavenly bodies. They are told that at best they can reach only those planets which are visible to human eye. Beyond that there efforts will fail. Allah’s universe is unfathomable. This is again in total agreement with 7:25 verse.
You will not pass except whatever Allah wants you to know. Except whatever Allah desire humans to know. How? by authority.
You see, the way i see it is that theres no a single verse of Quran contradicting any other verse of Quran. I told u this is what quran says in 7:25.. and you showing me another verse telling me why allah is saying this then..i showed you how its not contradicting at all. Humans DO go IN SPACE, with proper knowledge, taking with them whatever is necessary to survive. In space itself, there is no life for humans.
Just like how in water, there are living creatures.. but humans are for land. It does not mean humans cannot find the hidden knowledge underneath oceans, they ofcourse do but with proper equipments with them. In ocean itself, there is no life for humans.
You’re not getting it, are you?
[7:24-25] He said, ‘Go forth, some of you* being *enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time.’ He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’
if i go by how you understood it, then we shouldnt believe that we will be brought forth from here either.. since there is no emphasis. If according to you we as humans CAN live outside of earth, CAN die in space, then we can ALSO be brought forth from somewhere other than Earth. Either you take this whole verse as meaning that this alone is a place, or use ur interpretation and have doubt that theres somewhere else where we can be brought forth too. You cannot take it however you like. That’s not how it works.
THEREIN shall you live, and therein shall you die. >>again 7:24 and even before the whole topic is about humans. Adam a.s making mistake of eating from a forbidden tree.. its all about humans. I did not say it now but have said it all along. Now, if its for humans, then Isa a.s is a human being too and he MUST be present on Earth to be alive or else no matter where ever he is..heavens or where ever.. he must be dead. I’m not questioning if he is or is not in heaven.. he a.s most certainly must be, but the question is if hes there alive or dead.
This time, take your time in reading my reply and respond accordingly. jazakAllah.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
***...
This time, take your time in reading my reply and respond accordingly. jazakAllah.
Peace Mr.Popat
I've said what I needed to say ... and that is the verse "therein you shall live ..." is not negating living elsewhere ... all my references are there ... your counters are there too ...
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mr.Popat
I've said what I needed to say ... and that is the verse "therein you shall live ..." is not negating living elsewhere ... all my references are there ... your counters are there too ...
:) it is negating living elsewhere for a human! if humans CAN live else where, CAN die elsewhere, then they CAN also be brought forth from elsewhere.
But ok, if you dont want to answer. Again, i did not change any of my understanding in any of my post. My last post has everything you need to know.
Thanks for the discussion.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
I just want to say that I'm leaving this topic. I don't how you can say I accuse you of worshipping Muhammad (saw). I never said that. I only asked you that "How do you know Muslims don't worship Muhammad (saw)?"...that is all. Feel free to answer, but I'm done with his one for now.
So now that the Aqeeda forbids worship of Muhammad (saw), you really think people won't? The Holy Qur'An forbids to sin. Now people still sin. Man, I don't know what to do with you.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace Mr.Popat
Allah (SWT) is fully capable of bringing us forth from anywhere He Wills … this is a non-argument … :hehe:
The funny thing is if I agree with you that humans can’t live elsewhere or die elsewhere then how can I agree with this other statement you made … which shows that you believe humans can travel in space … ???
On one hand you negate humans going extra-terrestrial on the other hand you confirm it.
Now this my friend is a true contradiction. You see to argue from 7:25 that it is impossible for humans to live elsewhere then you must also conclude that the verse regarding bringing together of aliens and humans must be either that they visit us or that meeting is purely by communication … and humans cannot travel to space at all and all historical accounts of it happening are lies.
Oh … BTW … regarding your insistence that this verse 7:25 is meant only for humans … that is also not true … Tafsir on ayat reveal that Iblis and the snake are also part of this … from 7:24 … in fact if you didn’t point it out I would not have remembered reading it earlier …
Tafsir Ibn Kathir
(Allah) said: "Get down, one of you an enemy to the other.
It was said that,
**
هْبِطُواْ
**
"Get down), was addressed to Adam, Hawwa, Iblis and the snake.
Some scholars did not mention the snake, and Allah knows best.
In light of this … don’t you think Adam (AS) and Hawwa (AS) Iblis and the snake for that matter previously lived in heaven? Is Adam (AS) not a human? So if he is a human and he did live in heaven then this is further confirmation that this verse does not mean “humans cannot live elsewhere” … and in addition the ayat is not specific to humans … you are just using your own mind to arrive at your conclusions.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
once again,
what is with verse 145 of Sura-Al Imran?
And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.
People asked, why should Isa (as) come back? If a Messenger shall comeback, then it can only be Muhamnmad (saw) or one of his servants, not a Prophet from the Israelites.
Please explain this post Bigboi ... Are you saying this verse was revealed because people asked why should Isa (AS) come back? If not then who are the people "who asked why Isa (AS) should come back" ???
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
No. The point i raised is for sure not irrelevant. You said that humans CAN live outside of this Earth. You said humans CAN die in space too. Then why will you not believe that humans CAN be brought forth from some where other than Earth? You can say anything you like.. but at this point, you’re completely ignoring what the verse is saying.. and my question was exactly about that verse.. when allah says therein shall you be brought back.. you say..no, he can raise us from anywhere.. really, my friend.. review your imaan when you say Qur’an IS the word of Allah.
You explaining me how its not just to humans but rather for iblis and the snake too and thinking that you have made your point by this is again wrong. I say, even if iblis and snake was also involved. I dont know where you got this from, but even then, how does this disprove my point that therein shall you live ? snake will live here on Earth too.. you cant say Iblis specifically was not sent down, but rather the satanic power was sent down with humans, and that power will also die on this earth. In the hereafter, satan itself will be in its own trouble. But again, point remains.. Allah is referring to humans ( iblis and snake too in your view ), they all will live on this Earth. NO exception ! My question is only limited to humans for now… since the point im trying to get you at is about the life of Isa a.s who was a human… i’m glad in your tafseer, there is indeed the mention of humans.
This will create another discussion whether or not heaven is a physical place. But then again, the verse clearly states that ‘therein shall you live’.. after whatever Adam a.s did. Making no possibility now that a man can now live in heaven. You make a mistake, this is the price.
You’re again doing the same mistake. You’re saying as if Allah was nauzubillah false in saying that ‘therein shall you live’.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
No. The point i raised is for sure not irrelevant. You said that humans CAN live outside of this Earth. You said humans CAN die in space too. Then why will you not believe that humans CAN be brought forth from some where other than Earth? You can say anything you like.. but at this point, you're completely ignoring what the verse is saying.. and my question was exactly about that verse.. when allah says therein shall you be brought back.. you say..no, he can raise us from anywhere.. really, my friend.. review your imaan when you say Qur'an IS the word of Allah.
Mr. Popat
You didn't read my answer properly .... I said according to the rules of Arabic the possibility of exception is there ... so if someone is said to be brought forth from somewhere else this verse cannot be used to negate it.
You are presenting a non-argument because you are asserting the idea that I believe it is not possible, but I didn't say that, I 'll gladly change my view if you can show the reverse to be the case from other more restrictive verses, but this one allows a possibility.
You explaining me how its not just to humans but rather for iblis and the snake too and thinking that you have made your point by this is again wrong. I say, even if iblis and snake was also involved. I dont know where you got this from, but even then, how does this disprove my point that therein shall you live ? snake will live here on Earth too.. you cant say Iblis specifically was not sent down, but rather the satanic power was sent down with humans, and that power will also die on this earth. In the hereafter, satan itself will be in its own trouble. But again, point remains.. Allah is referring to humans ( iblis and snake too in your view ), they all will live on this Earth. NO exception ! My question is only limited to humans for now... since the point im trying to get you at is about the life of Isa a.s who was a human... i'm glad in your tafseer, there is indeed the mention of humans.
As I said, Adam(as) lived in heaven and if he can live in heaven without being dead, then Isa(AS) can live in heaven without being dead. Iblis ... You have always negated him being a person of Jinn ... You are now interpreting him to some thing of a negative force instead of a creature like us.
Remember the likeness of Isa (AS) is that of Adam (AS) ? Adam (AS), Hawwa (AS) and Iblis none of them lived their whole entire lives on Earth, so it can permissible for Isa (AS), to be in a similar situation.
I say again that verse allows exceptions ....
This will create another discussion whether or not heaven is a physical place. But then again, the verse clearly states that 'therein shall you live'.. after whatever Adam a.s did. Making no possibility now that a man can now live in heaven. You make a mistake, this is the price.
You're again doing the same mistake. You're saying as if Allah was nauzubillah false in saying that 'therein shall you live'.
Again your understanding of heaven and the event of eating of the tree is flawed. It is the Christian who believes in the original sin and we are sent born in sin to cleanse ourselves making heaven forbidden to us .... No ....not Muslims ... ...we believe Adam (AS) was sent here to fulfil his purpose, that he (AS) was forgiven before being sent down.
And there is no mistake except in you mind and limited understaning of Arabic and the Muslim tradition ... The exception is present in those verses ...
.. theres no point talking about it since i NEVER denied the possibility of life in any other planet (wont be humans). Though, here we’re talking about HUMANS. Read 7:24-25. I’m not more intelligent than the ones who have written books.. but my views are certainly parallel to what they have said, as far as I know. And i do research in my spare time to have more knowledge about certain topics..
you seriously want me to take your version as a mere reading? You are clearly confused and reinterpreting upon each hurdle.