Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
541

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

The raising of spiritually dead people is a poor interpretation. The Qur'an uses the words guidance and misguidance for that ... There is no reason to use metaphors here. Secondly, none of the companions interpreted this raising as a metaphor ... Thirdly, it is impossible to conceptualise how "raising of spiritually dead people is undertaken" if it is a sudden magical turn of the state of disbelief in to belief then this goes against what Mr.Popat was arguing about before ... That when Isa (AS) returns people will see him and convert ... He said this is an injustice that people are made to convert and he wrongfully cited the verses of "no compulsion ..." ... But here he is saying that this is what raising of spiritually dead people is exactly ... It is a magical conversion ... This is his inconsistency ...

542

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Its time you open the Holy Quran and see for yourself what words Allah uses.

Whose deaf , dumb and blind ? Were Makkans deaf, dumb and blind ? what does that tell you ? :halo:

Allah alone will raise dead :

Try to understand what I’m showing you. The difference between a physical body living and physical body dead. Physical body which is alive is called dead by Allah, and physical body which is dead is called alive by Allah.

The reverse is actually true. Companions did not interpret ‘raising of dead’ as literal raising of dead. They knew in which context the word ‘dead’ is used. (see above verses).

You are falsely accusing me. He a.s raised spiritual dead by Allah’s leave. Then in another verse of Quran Allah says, it is up to him whomsoever he show the right path. The believers have to struggle after being spiritually raised. The prophet of Allah who spiritually raised people was Jesus a.s. Who ever accepts Him is spiritually raised and not dead anymore. Whosoever does not, this is what Allah says :

who continue to disbelieve and die spiritually dead, allah will raise them again and their account will be with Allah. Please open your eyes! Read Quran! Don’t find flaws in Allah’s book. Synchronize what ahadith says with that of what Qur’an says and then make a belief.

There is no inconsistency you’ll see from my side inshAllah. I have alhamdulillah lots and lots of proof to back up what I believe. I not only write something for the sake of it but provide verses of Qur’an. Something that I dont see often from your side.

ps: even then.. ill save you some time. You wont be able to answer all this. What strange is that you are using his miracles as an argument that he a.s is in heaven alive. Silly and poor argumentation.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Dear psyah, I have explained the reasons why events that you call miracles did not happen. So now you are asking me what about this miracle and that miracle. I have stated the rule and anything that does not fit the rule it cannot happen, if it did one ought to have proof of it. Baseless stories cannot be proof of extraordinary or supernatural events against the laws that are operating in the universe. This is why one has no right to misinterpret and misrepresent the quran. First one has to establish a rule then one has the right to interpret the quran according to that rule. I stated right from the start that nature works naturally, the words used in the quran can be interpreted in different ways but they cannot be established in their meanings unless their meanings are provable in light of the universal realities in context and purpose of the quran itself.

The only things that I accept as extraordinary are those which have no alternative reasonable explanations eg existence of the quran and the universe. All else can be explained naturally because it happened and happens in natural world and the world always worked the same way ie naturally ever since it came to existence. Even a once broken law is still breaking the law. The quran will be proven false if God even once broke the set law, why? Because the quran establishes its claims by telling us observe nature and natural phenomena and you will find it consistent. How something can be claimed consistent when it was interrupted even if it was interrupted just once?

What I claim is obvious to all to observe and verify but your claim is unreal and unverifiable therefore I call such ideas make beliefs. All I am doing is trying to help people here realise inconsistency in their reasoning in this regard. Your point will prove the quran wrong if there was no reasonable explanation of the quranic text from which you derive idea of miracles.

If you want to know alternative interpretations of the verses concerned please refer to works of various people who had reached that level of wisdom and discussed these issues long ago. Find out what was fight of mullas with sir syed or farahi, iqbal, jinnah, parwez etc etc.

There is no point in dragging issues that have been clearly decided on basis of reason by people who had the wisdom. Mullahs at most have been preservers of the divine information but may be never bothered to make sense of it. The question is, why did they even bother to preserve it? Was it because kings paid them well or did they do it for sake of Allah and humanity? I leave that between them and Allah but today, we cannot afford to stick to mullas' versions of islam. if we do we are signing on our death warrants or at least painful suffering is going to increase many folds.

So my dear brother please start thinking beyond yourself and God. You need to think about rest of humanity as well and what God intended for them. Get out of religious frame of mind and think about wider implications of things in framework of deen of islam.

May Allah guide us all to the path that is provably solid as a rock.

regards and all the best.

544

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RA5XAdbJ04&feature=related

Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah - Aug 15, 1947 - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3tVWwFcmr0&feature=related)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-HfOCcZ5oY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkmyAZQ8aUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37kV3XWa_R8

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAHO3qBbu7s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q12_Nip4Mso&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAHO3qBbu7s&feature=related)

545

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

aoa Popat,

My undertsanding is that Prophet Jesus (as) gave life to dead in the same way prophet muhammad(pbuh) did as evident by 8:24

al-Anfal 8:24

a few translations are:
Shakir) O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.

Tahir-ul-Qadri) O Believers! Whenever the Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) calls you for some assignment that brings you (eternal) life, present yourselves (immediately), responding to Allah and His Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) with submissiveness and obedience. And bear in mind that Allah intervenes between man and his heart (with a Glory of exclusive nearness), and that all of you will (ultimately) be gathered towards Him.

Sher Ali) O ye who believe! respond to Allah, and the Messenger when he calls you that he may give you life, and know that Allah comes in between a man and his heart, and that He it is unto Whom you shall be gathered.

546

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Assalam o Alaikum brother kchughtai,

JazakAllah for that verse. I agree. In the same way. In fact, prophets are sent to mankind to give mankind life. This is the language and metaphoric language that Allah has used. Unfortunate are those people who find flaws in Quran.

547

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

The concept of someone coming back to life after death in this world is diameterically opposed to these verses. since you guys accept that Quran comes at the top and Quran explains itself then please heed these words from the holy Quran

023.099 *
**YUSUFALI:* (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-
PICKTHAL: Until, when death cometh unto one of them, he saith: My Lord! Send me back,
SHAKIR: Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back;
023.100 *
**YUSUFALI:* "In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.
PICKTHAL: That I may do right in that which I have left behind! But nay! It is but a word that he speaketh; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised.
SHAKIR: Haply I may do good in that which I have left. **By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.

039.058
YUSUFALI: "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the penalty: **'If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!'**

039:59
YUSUFALI: "(The reply will be 'Nay,** but there came to thee my Signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject faith!'"

about Jesus and his mother
**005.076
YUSUFALI: Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? **But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

548

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ yep. It's an established belief of Islam as I mentioned earlier. No human once dead returns to Earth. The verses above is the evidence. Thank you.

To have a belief against mohkam verses of Quran is therefore rejecting the authenticity of Quran.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

and also hadith

Here is a hadith from Ibn Majah: Sunaan ibn Majah, Vol I, Hadith number 190: *
Talha b. Khirash is reported to have said, “I heard jabir b. ‘Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) as saying: As Abdullah b. ‘Amr b. Haram was killed on the day of Uhud (battle), Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) met **me* and said, “O Jabir should I not tell you what Allah said about your father?” Yahya in his hadith has reported (these words): O Jabir, what is the matter that I see you broken‑hearted…?” He said, “I told him: Allah’s Messenger, my father has been martyred and he left behind some dependants and a debt.” He (the Holy Prophet) said, “Should I not give you the glad-tidings of that with which Allah met your father?” He said, “Yes, Allah’s Messenger.” He (the Holy Prophet) said, “Allah has never talked with anyone but from behind a curtain, but he talked with your father face to face and said, “O My bondsman, desire from Me, I shall grant you.” He said, “My** Lord, (I wish) that You give a new life to me and I am killed for Thine sake for the second time. Upon this, the Lord, Hallowed be He said: It has already been decided by me that he will not return to it (a new *****life.” He said, “My* Lord, so convey (this) to those left behind me.”

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat and kchughtai

For once I’m going to address every point …

My previous post states that the raising of the dead by Isa (AS) by Leave of Allah (SWT) is categorically not taken as anything else by the Sahabah instead Mr.Popat you have Presented to me lots of verses from the Qur’an applying your own horse sense to those verses.

And between you and kchughtai there is more inconsistency.

Verse 27/80 is a metaphor … We know this because it is stated within the same verse that those who are “dead” have turned their backs retreating. So if in this case we are indeed talking about the spiritually dead … It is not possible to guide them .I.e. if raising the dead means guiding them then that is not possible. As you claim Mr.Popat that Isa (AS) did herein a conflict with you not I.. However, this verse does not say that it is not possible to raise the physically dead. So in fact this another point in favour of my stance not yours.

Again 30/52 is a metaphor … We knows this because living people turn away their backs … So it is impossible to guide them … Yet it is Mr.Popat who is saying this was done by Isa (AS) …

Another point this verse is talking to a specific person … And the exception of the leave of Allah (SWT) is always there … So my argument is not as restrictive as yours, but it is you who are claiming this polarity not me.

2/18 is also a metaphor … We know this because the context is connected from the previous verse ..2/17 …it starts with saying “their example is as” … So it is wrong the bring these examples to me … As evidence of what the Sahabah thought … This is clearly what you think ..
Not Sahabah (RA) …

Next verse 6/36 is literal … Resurrection is not referring to people who are physically alive.

Then you are led by the nose by kchughtai … He has given you even more inconsistency to chew on …

In 8/24 we are neither talking about physically dead people …nor are we talking about spiritually dead people … We are talking about Those Who Believe … And you swooned on it and accepted his help … Just because he is from your fold … You should have corrected him …

:nahi:

Rather 8/22 - 8/25 … Is a beautiful depiction of the worst people and the best … Here the people who are deaf and dumb and do not use reason are the worst of people … I.e. it is those who prevent themselves from listening and speaking about good and they don’t entertain any better or wiser way to exist … That they are doubly barred … On the other hand there are people who believed … And wants them to listen and obey … In order to reach Jannah … Life in this verse refers to paradise existence after Judgement Day … Or indeed straight away as martyrs living as green birds until Judgement Day.

Why is this even more irrelevant? Here we are talking about the living being given life … And not about the dead (spiritually or physically) …

In 23/98-101 … Here we are indeed talking about the physical death of a disbeliever … Who upon his death realises his folly and seeks to be given life in this world again to mend his ways … Allah (SWT) states for that for that individual it is not going to happen. It is also considered the general course of events for most souls … But the clue here is when it states “one of them” … In verse 99.

The next section 39:55 - 60

Again irrelevant … These are talking about those souls at Judgment or thereafter sentencing pleading to be sent back … Not about a dead person in this world being raised by a miracle …

5/76 … Out of context … kchughtai …

Regarding the beautiful Hadith … I accept it … For what it states regarding that Sahabi … It is indeed the general rule that those who die are not given life back … Except for those who Allah (SWT) has written it for them to be raised … Such as those who were raised by Isa (AS) and the individual who will be raised by Dajjal …

Bring a reference that states no human being will or has ever been given life again in this world after death comes/came to him … That will prove your case. :slight_smile:

And May Allah (SWT) Guide us all …

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mughal1

You did not listen to me at all ... The only Miracles I am interested in and believe are true miracles are the ones interwoven into our scriptures ... I am not interested in your silly YouTube videos ... Where charlatans are debunked ... That is irrelevant.

If you cannot be straight with me or reduce your blurred speech then it is better you avoid this thread ... Thank you very much ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Dear brother psyah, the point you need to realise is that all who were caught deceiving people were not taken as fraudster by general public to begin with. Not only that but many still continue to believe in them instead of believing their exposers. Moreover those who are still at large are also fraudsters but the only thing is they are not even caught yet. The divine messengers do not come to show people similar magical tricks like others to re-enforce same confusion in them like others but to educate them out of this mindset and attitude and practice for their own good.

Please educate me as to why the fraudster use their tricks in the first place? Why do I need to trick you? Because I want to get something you have by making fool of you, like a child is made fool of by an adult who is after something unduly.

Why would divine messengers need miracles? They do not come to rob humanity of anything instead they want to ensure the society develops along sensible lines of reason for their own good. Just by showing a few tricks society does not become educated therefore miracles of that kind cannot bring the changes the revelation can. In fact after some show tricks some more can come along and show similar tricks and people will never be able to decide which tricksters to follow as is the case in reality.

If you say that divine messengers come with magical tricks so that they could guide people then you are telling me people cannot be guided by reason based upon revelation alone. If that was the case the revelation would have been useless and there are no miracles happening all the time for people to see and be guided so God has left people in lurch.

Please try and think you are getting into terrible error about concept of miracles.

If I asked you to prove islam is true, what are you going to do? How are you going to prove it true to me? By miracles that you seem to believe in mistakenly? You will use the quran and invite me to use my head. Am I right? This being the case you are then admitting that quran is such a book that can guide people in that case why do you need miracles? So dear brother please try and understand my point, I know I am not being able to help you understand things but may be you can try and see what I am trying to convey.

There is clear contradiction between faith in so called miracles and use of rational evidence based arguments. Islam is based on the divine revelation alone nothing else at all and that is the way it was always. The only difference is we have the revelation in form of the quran but others had their own books from God. So long as divine revelations were understood in light of real univeral realities, it was never possible for them to fail mankind in divine guidance. Divine programs only fail because people fail to play their parts or roles effectively. So if we humans fail at our end of bargain then it is not right that God should be blamed for that. We do wrong and we suffer for it and we will keep on suffering till we do things the way God told us. We can kep on crying to God for forgiveness but so long as we do not bother understand his message forgiveness is not going to come our way. God has told us how he decides matter. We better find out before it is too late.

No prophet was sent with anything other than divine writ and the same is repeated in the quran whenever a prophet was asked to show tricks to prove his divine origin. The reply was always by every messenger, I am only a messenger and my job is to deliver the message I am given by God for your benefit. The reason people used to ask prophets for miracles is because their priests use to pout them up to it. The idea was that these messenger will not be able to show those tricks and therefore people will carry on as usual and so the ruling system in place will carry on taking advantage of their own foolishness. Just like mullas and peers etc.

I hope I am making sense but if not please forgive me.

I pray that we all see better sense. regards and all the best.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

:sadaf:

removing words in quote, so you understand the point I’m making.

You said Quran does not use the word ‘dead’ for disbelievers. I showed you how. You accepted they were metaphor. Thank you.
Inconsistency from our side ? I don’t know about that. See what you’re doing.

Point was that the term dead is used for disbelievers in Qur’an. To say it’s not is being ignorant.

Not only that, kchughtai gave the verse in which Muhammad PBUH gave life to people by allah’s will…the same way Isa a.s gave life to people by Allah’s leave.

Do you or do you not think Quran has contradictions in it ??

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Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

And beside that..why are we talking about his miracles? Are you suggesting he is alive and is in heaven because of His miracles? :S

555

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

wheres the contadiction as per our understanding?

556

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Popat – Keep in always in mind that this is a public forum – People do read this and will read this time and again – so one should not make a fool of one's self in front of general public.

I had quoted different translations of ayah 39 of Surah Imran to show that the blessed Quran –the very Word of Allah Almighty – confirms the miracles performed by Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as):

Miracles being:

1) “I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave.”
2) “I shall heal the blind, by God's leave;
3) I shall heal the leper, by God's leave;
4) I shall bring the dead back to life by God's leave;

I’ll quote the different translations again for convenience

**Muhammad Asad* and [will make him] an apostle unto the children of Israel.” "I HAVE COME unto you with a message from your Sustainer. I shall create for you out of clay, as it were, the shape of [your] destiny, and then breathe into it, so that it might become [your] destiny by God's leave; and I shall heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life by God's leave; and I shall let you know what you may eat and what you should store up in your houses. Behold, in all this there is indeed a message for you, if you are [truly] believers. al-Imran 3:49
**
M. M. Pickthall** And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers. al-Imran 3:49
**
Shakir** And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. al-Imran 3:49

Yusuf Ali "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; al-Imran 3:49

Rashad Khalifa As a messenger to the Children of Israel: "I come to you with a sign from your Lord - I create for you from clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a live bird by GOD's leave. I restore vision to the blind, heal the leprous, and I revive the dead by GOD's leave. I can tell you what you eat, and what you store in your homes. This should be a proof for you, if you are believers. al-Imran 3:49
*
The above ayah’s language is so clear cut that it does not need any interpretation. It is clearly understood that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is not taking any credit for the Miracles performed; He is clearly attributing to Allah Almighty

So why do you have to look for allegorical meanings when the ayah is so clear? What’s the agenda?

And very farcically /pathetically/ ludicrously (I feel like using a lot of similar words) to counter the above you brought forward the following ayahs

*[But,] verily, thou canst not make the dead hear: and [so, too,] thou canst not make the deaf [of heart] hear this call when they turn their backs [on thee] and go away, an-Naml 27:80

And, verily, thou canst not make the dead hear: and [so, too,] thou canst not make the deaf [of heart] hear this call when they turn their backs [on thee] and go away, ar-Rum 30:52

and neither are equal the living and the dead [of heart]. Behold, [O Muhammad,] God can make hear whomever He wills, whereas thou canst not make hear such as are [dead of heart like the dead] in their graves: Fatir 35:22

Deaf, dumb, blind - and they cannot turn back. al-Baqarah 2:18
*
I leave it the viewers to judge if there is any relevance between the two verses. They are intelligent enough to see how wrong you are. Just like a drowning man you will clutch at anything thrown to you.

By taking on the line thrown to you by kchughtai made you look even more ridiculous!

Your position is that:

“I shall heal the blind, by God's leave; and I shall bring the dead back to life by God's leave; should be interpreted allegorically - (Which all Muslims say is wrong)

Read the whole ayah in context and now educate us; why have you not given the allegorical meaning of: “I shall heal the leper, by God's leave;”

Why have you left that out? – Yes you have no answer!

You have to go back to your Murrabis for the answers – I bet you will come back with some more ridiculous interpretation.

My oft quoted ayah for Ahmadis

It is what it says. Those who have perversity in their hearts and other self serving agendas will seek other interpretations

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.** Al Imran: ayah 7**

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Popat Note how many times you have been corrected

You did not even acknowledge the ahadith; and of course we know the reason why.

MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi has rejected these ahadith and thrown them into waste bin the ahadith as they were not in line with his ‘ so called wahi’.

The following was given:

John 11:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

1Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

John 11:23-27

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

John 11:38-43

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”
44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

Some more

20 Then he cried out to the LORD, “LORD my God, have you brought tragedy even on this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?”
21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the LORD, “LORD my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”
22And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 1 Kings 20 - 22

32 When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch.
33 He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD.
34 Then he got on the bed and lay upon the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out upon him, the boy’s body grew warm.
35 Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out upon him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. 2 Kings 4:32-35

Islamic Sources

According to a reliable narration from Imam as-Sadiq ‘Isa had once gone up mountain named Areehaa. Satan approached him in the form of the King of Palestine and said, “O Roohullaah (Spirit of Allah), since you make the dead alive and cure the ill and the blind and the leprous just make yourself fall down from this hill.” ‘Isa replied, “I do everything as ordered by Allah and He has not commanded me to do so.”

It is also recorded according to the same sources that once upon a time the crafty Iblis came to ‘Isa and told him, “Are you the one who claims to be able to make the dead alive?” said, “Yes.” Satan said, “If you are telling the truth, just make yourself fall off this wall and show us that you are still alive thereafter.

” ‘Isa replied, ‘Woe unto you! a slave who is subordinate to the commands of Allah cannot experiment upon himself as he likes.” Then Iblis said, “Is your Lord able enough to close up the entire universe into an egg without shortening the universe or enlarging the egg?” ‘Isa replied, “Inability can never apply to Allah. What you ask for is absurd and hence unlikely to happen and this is not against the perfection of the ability of Allah.”

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/29.htm

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Ok … I admit to this much … that the Qur’an refers to the idea of the futility to call upon the physically dead … And applies this futility to calling the disbelievers … But I do not admit that when the word “dead” is used it is meant spiritually dead. Even though I have used it in my discussion with you as interplay …

However, you should have seen by presenting the verse 27/80 it causes your own stance harm …

Now if 27/80 is talking about spiritually dead … Then the same verse says it is not possible to get them to listen … Yet on the other hand you claim Isa (AS) did that very thing …

And if 27/80 is talking about physically dead … Then we understand it to mean that it is futile to try speaking to dead people … But then you can’t show that the term “dead” is ever used except in the physical sense. Which means that the raising of the dead by Isa (AS) has to have been an exception to the rule and it was physical done.

559

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I see contradiction in many of the beliefs. It seems Qur'an to you is not the standard of beliefs.

For example:

As per Qur'an, only Allah will raise dead on the day of judgement. General belief is Jesus a.s raised dead who were physically dead.
As per Qur'an, once a human dies, Allah does not send them back to Earth. General belief is that Jesus a.s raised dead.. which means their soul was taken away but Jesus a.s brought it back. Not only that, Dajjal will also raise dead.
As per Quran, all prophets were humans and their body was not made as such that required no food. Believe that we see is that Jesus a.s was indeed a man, is alive without food.. he a.s is being sustained in some other means.

I can list more and more.. but I hope you got what I mean. Ask for more, and ill list more.

560

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

You’re repeating same thing over and over. This is my last time replying on this topic.
This is how it goes :

  1. We have ahadith in front of us
  2. We have Hz Ahmad(as)'s claims in front of us.
  3. We accepted Him based on the ahadith.
  4. Since we accept Him, we accept the wahi He a.s received from Allah.
  5. What is revealed on him cannot go against i) Quran ii) ahadith
  6. Ahadith which are rejected are not reliable.
  7. In another book of His, He wrote that if the hadith which are taken literally in terms of Isa a.s’s coming, dajjal and about these issues are not true, if we take them literally. Therefore the concept that people come up with, with those ahadith should be rejected and thrown away.

Hope that’s clear enough now.

Bible is not my standard. Therefore, its all ignored.

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:smack:
Imam as-Sadiq saying it. If you forgot, ahadith are the sayings of Muhammad PBUH. Most reliable ones are the 6 books of ahadith known as ‘the accurate six’.
It’s also not reliable because it goes against Qur’an. Hz Muhammad PBUH cannot say anything which goes against Qur’an.

Standard again is the Qur’an ! For anything to be authentic in hadith, it must be approved by Qur’an.

Not reliable. One hadith says one thing. Another says something else. The other is not said to be from holy prophet s.a.w.

Isa a.s ascended to heaven through an opening in the top of the house. Why? Was he a.s physically dead from crucifixion? (not true as per Quran). Was he taken down from crucifixion alive ? (not your belief). When did this occur? before or after his crucifixion ? If before, then thats again not true because he a.s was infact put on cross. They are not reliable, to cut the story short.

Another hadith says he was taken to heavens from a mountain. I dont need to write further on this. It’s evident that they both have mix meaning coming out of it… Holy Quran declares him dead. Ahadith confirms it as well. If the hadith dont, then you need to make a good understanding between the hadith you’re presenting and the hadith in which we have indication of Isa a.s death. You cannot be believing in every hadith with mixed message. Make Qur’an your standard and hadith as a source of getting more knowledge on it.

Please dont use ahadith to nullify whats in Qur’an.

Regarding your question about His name. I have said it countless times, His name was Ahmad. Ghulam itself cannot stand alone as a name. There’s nothing to argue on this,please. Ghulam Ahmad was His full name. But the name specifically given to him was Ahmad. His father name was Murtaza. Kindly, dont make everything arguable.