Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mughal1

I asked you to substantiate how believing in miracles harms society ... and you give me this verbosity ...

In fact ... I think you have quite a refined tactic - to diffuse "talking points" by making everything an essay ... or an ode ... love story ...

Everything you say is blurred ... It seems to me now that you intend it to be that way ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Dear psyah, there are problems with your question but I think you do not realise them this is why you are seeking direct evidence from me. It is not possible to connect beliefs to actions directly. However as it is always said that tree is known by its fruit so indirectly it is possible to link beliefs to actions, why? Because if you really believe in doing something then you could go ahead and do it when you get the chance ie people act on their beliefs after all what is motivation all about? On that basis there is ample evidence that people who believe in things happening supernaturally always expect them to happen supernaturally. It is just their mindset and attitude to do so. This is why such people rush to anyone who they think can do things for them. It is for this reason we see people rushing to graves of people and they rush to any person who seems to them a holly person. This being the case it takes people away from real life real solutions. That is how it brings harm to society. People give up looking for real reasons for their problems so they stop looking for their real solutions.

For example, a person is seriously ill but that person believes by visiting a certain grave he will be cured so he does that and keeps doing that. If result he expects does not materialise he blames himself for not doing things properly rather than accepting that his beliefs are wrong. This too is told to him by those who direct people in to such beliefs to begin with. This is how all the mazaaries or majaawars deceive people. Due to such beliefs the nation is turned into brainless people.

Again there is connection between promotion of make beliefs, rulers, priests and holly-men and bankers or moneymakers. This is how they do business if you like by making fool of ignorant masses. Governments are behind these kind of poeple because they help take away attention of people from governments. If these people were not in the way making fool of masses they will think about matters related to governments and make them work as is the case in educated societies because people are less likely to be fooled in that case. This is how public is kept in confusion and rulers remain in their positions of power and the business carries on as usual.

jali peer - YouTube

jali babas - YouTube

baba exposed - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=james+*****+debunks&oq=james+*****&gs_l=youtube.1.5.0l10.11954.16120.0.32586.10.8.0.2.2.1.152.745.5j3.8.0...0.0...1ac.MTbVI3QQvYQ

So you can see the effects of make beliefs all over the world. You will see the peers and babas have lots of people in high positions among their disciples but that is not necessarily for right reasons but for partnership. You see if anyone is going to con people he will have to organise the scam accordingly. Small level scams have small level planing and huge scams have much bigger planning and involves more people and at higher level.

Look at how people write this is fake peer and that is true peer or saieen baaba or holly man. Only those who are exposed by those hurt by scams are labelled fake and rest are thought to be ok so the business carries on.

The truth is belief in miracles and magic etc is totally false and it was promoted by rulers through priests for giving basis to religions so that state remains in control of people. There is no real basis for it in deen of islam because islam wants to make people clever not stupid so that they can do great things. The quran was revealed to take people out of these things back into real world realities. From quranic perspective education of masses is of high importance. Keeping people ignorant or confused was not the purpose of the quran but that is what it is used for by a great number of people who claim to be its supporters. No way they are its supporters because its program is not implemented to remove all ills from human society.

I hope this helps understand things better.

regards and all the best.

523

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

When does any prophet do anything without the will and leave of Allah almighty ? :smack:
Fact of the matter is orthodox muslims believe Jesus a.s stands alone in performing miracles such as raising dead other than God himself.
Fact of the matter is orthodox muslims believe Jesus a.s stands alone is still living, other than God.
Fact of the matter also is orthodox muslims believe Jesus a.s to not need food to remain alive..and same is believed about Allah as well.

Yet, you do not see what an obvious mistake you people are making. You make one belief, and now you will do what ever it takes to defend it, even if it means going against Qur’an.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mughal1

There is nothing wrong with my question … I asked the question because you stated earlier that believing in miracles harms society. So I was asking for evidence of this. The rest of what you said is a blur. Please stop giving me dabba peer stuff … give me your take on the Ascension of Isa (AS) as a miracle or the parting of the sea by Musa (AS) as a miracle and explain how you think this harms society.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Can you do anything without the permission of Allah (SWT)? Can anyone? … No … Yet the Holiest of Holy Books sees it fit to use the explanation … “by Allah’s leave” - so it must mean something … Why did the Qur’an use that terminology? If it is so unspecific?

Let me help … It is because it is something special and does not mean the type of permission that takes place in normal day to day events, but a special exception … the Word of God - “Be” … and the miracle occurs. That is what it means in this case … and if it doesn’t mean that - then you are accusing the Qur’an of using superfluous terminology … or more dangerously … you might be entertaining the possibility of things being done without Allah (SWT)'s permission …

Regarding your claims about what Muslims believe - you are clearly lying … it is that ridiculous.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Your words sound very confusing. At one point you say Quran explains it self. That’s what i’m saying.. it does. But you choose not to understand from it.

I gave you mohkam verses.

All prophets were men. All prophets required food to live. You are to live on this earth and die on this earth. Only Allah will raise dead on the day of judgement. Dead people do not come back to Earth again.

Now these are mohkam verses. To interpret mutashaabay verses against them is going against Quran. You are assuming Qur’an has contradiction in it. This is not my belief. To understand those verses, we can go to ahadith to get a more deeper understanding, provided that even the meaning that we take out from the ahadith does not contradict mohkam verses of Qur’an.

You like to give me the criteria so many times. Let’s talk about that too.

  1. Quran explains itself. Yes it does. I never said it doesnt. That’s why I take mohkam verses and stress on that.

  2. Sunnah of Muhammad PBUH. Ok.. whats the sunnah of prophet about how all prophets were men.. all prophets required food to live… You are tolive on this earth and die on this earth…only allah will raise dead and dead dont come back to earth alive. If you talk about sunnah, is there any thing in those mohkam verses that Muhammad PBUH did not show in his own lifetime ? He s.aw. ate, he lived and died on earth. He s.a.w will be raised on day of judgement. He s.a.w wont be coming back to earth again since he s.a.w died. Got anything different to share ?

  3. Ijmah of sahabah(ra). Which ijmaah of sahaba went against the mohkam verses of Qur’an ? :halo:

  4. Qiyas and ijtehaad. Ok, so use your logic. Don’t go against mohkam verses. Dont be believing that Qur’an have contradictions.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

No prophet does anything without the permission of Allah. Let me help you as well.

If I achieve phD degree and someone ask me how I did it ? If i'm humble enough, i'd reply that it was merely through the mercy of God.

He a.s raised spiritually dead by the will of Allah. He a.s did not take the credit for it. He a.s had the wisdom and such charm in his personality which He got from Allah, and from it used to give reasoning to Jews and raise up their spiritually dead bodies. What is wrong with that ?

Isa a.s was a pious and humble man who was chosen by Allah as a messenger to bani israel. What was wrong with him saying he does this by Allah's will ? Wisdom he had through which he raised dead was provided by Allah and therefore he gave credit to Allah. I see nothing wrong in that. Why do you ?

Regarding what i wrote about Muslim belief ( not islamic belief ), where is it that i made mistake ? do you not believe Isa a.s ALONE is alive ALONG WITH ALLAH ? Do you not believe he is not eating and is alive , like Allah ? Do you not believe He a.s is not living on Earth and is still alive ? Do you NOT believe Isa a.s to be raising dead and He stands alone in doing such a thing ALONG with Allah ? Buddy, these are your beliefs ! Think about them and then come tell me they're ridiculous.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

What are you on about? It is written in the Qur'an - Isa (AS) didn't say it out of humility ... Allah (SWT) said that Isa (AS) did miracles by His leave ... Why did Allah (SWT) say that? So Isa (AS) could feel humble?

I believe you and I are also alive along with Isa (AS) ... I have no opinion of whether he is eating or not ... but he (AS) is being sustained by The Sustainer ... Yes I believe as per Qur'an "Isa (AS) raised the dead" do you not believe the Word of Allah (SWT)?

What you said is not what I am saying here ... you see? You are being ridiculous ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Do I not believe in the word of Allah!? By GOD i am a believer of every single and little word of Quran. I firmly believe Quran to be my guide. I believe it to be the literal word of Allah. Dont tell me I dont believe in it.

Allah says he performed miracles by His leave. What do you see wrong with that ?? He did not do it all by himself. Whatever he did was by the will of Allah. Thereby saying that He a.s is not worthy of worship and is not God. By whose leave Jesus a.s did those miracles is the one all worthy of worship. Isa a.s raised spiritual dead by the will of Allah. Allah will raise dead on the day of judgement. How am i denying Qur’an? :bummer:

Yep. You can not have any opinion about what Quran clearly says. It’s good that you dont have any opinion about the example of eating given in Quran. This is what i’m saying! He a.s is sustained in a different way according to you which required no food. Allah is sustaining him “ALONE” in this manner and he ALONE is the exception. He ALONE raised dead beside Allah. Ridiculous for sure!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Aha … bring about a change in attitude now I see … that is the spirit Mr.Popat … Now you are speaking our language … well nearly … How does one raise spiritually dead people by the way?

Why can’t you be consistent hey? First of all when someone says “By Allah’s Leave” you dismissed it saying “when does a prophet do anything without Allah’s Leave?” and now … you yourself are using the same phrase “By Allah’s Leave” - you know why? Because it is a Qur’anic phrase … Now if “Allah’s Leave” happens all the time and “Raising Spiritually Dead People” is simply “Guiding People” then you are saying that Jesus (AS) …

Wait for it …

“Guided People”

that is not believing in the Qur’an … that is misguided reduction rationalism …

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

:) i am very much consistent. "By Allah's leave" is in Qur'an. He did all that by Allah's leave.. thats what i'm saying.. reason why I said " when did prophet do anything without the permission of Allah ? " in reply to Ibn Sadique when he said he did all that by Allah's leave and not by himself. I affirmed saying that no prophet does anything without the will of God. Jesus a.s's case is different because he is being worshipped as a God. Allah says he did all that by Allah's leave.. not all by himself. You understood what i'm saying but since you dont have an answer to it, you are just beating around the bushes.

He a.s guided people by the will of Allah. I simply fail to undertand why is it not getting to your head !

Spiritual dead are people who are far from the truth. Refer to the book you claim to be believing as the word of Allah.

532

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

:omg: It was Ibn Sadique saying that yet you rejected it when he said it … only when I said that Ibn Sadique is using the Qur’an to say it - now you are saying it too …

Now for you Isa (AS) can only raise the spiritually dead by Allah’s Leave … but Isa (AS) cannot raise the physically dead by Allah’s Leave … Is that right?

Question: Can Allah (SWT) raise the physically dead?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

:rotfl:

but its good change for the better, mrpopat:k:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Laugh all you like :slight_smile:

The message is very loud and clear. Can you reject my understanding from Quran ? No, right? Laughing at yourself is the only option left for you. Carry on!

Ibn Sadique said He raised dead physically with Allah’s leave. I did not reject that but rather said ’ if prophets ever do anything without Allah’s leave? " Of course the way he raised dead was by Allah’s will.. by the wisdom given to Him BY ALLAH. Either Allah is nauzubillah wrong in saying that he alone will raise dead.. or you are wrong. Remember, no contradiction in Qur’an.

Can Allah raise the physically dead ? Yes. Allah said so in Qur’an. He alone will do it. I will not write anything more than that at this point :slight_smile:

Question to you : Will Jesus a.s be able to physically raise dead in his second coming ?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I dunno ... but Dajjal will be able to ... so be careful !!! Don't get confused ...

Regarding the highlighted part ... When it is said that Isa (AS) raised the dead by Allah's Leave it means Allah is doing the raising of the dead ... and Isa (AS) is the vessel by which this is done.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Again, you see where you're making mistake ? You're giving literal meaning to the ahadith and not giving priority to what Quran says. How is it possible that Allah's prophet say something other than what Quran says ? does it even make sense to you ?

Allah says HE ALONE will raise dead on day of judgement ! ! THIS is is Qur'an buddy !
Ahadith must be interpreted in a way that it doesnt contradict Qur'an. I can answer about what it means of Dajjal raising people... but i want you to use your brain. Do you not think your interpretation of dajjal raising dead needs to have different meaning, so that it doesnt contradict Quran ??

Isa a.s raised the dead by Allah's leave. My understanding does not contradict any other verse of Quran. Whereas your interpretation does. Do you forget the belief of Islam that once one dies, they dont return ? This is what I call contradiction after contradiction ! problem after problem !

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

i think mrpopat is saying if in this world Isa AS raised the dead (dead dead, not spiritually dead) as is written Isa AS did by Allah's leave then that just couldnt be, it'd be a trick, magic trick, deception of some kind but not true as he cant raise the dead

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ nope. What i'm saying is he did raise the dead. Dead who were spiritually dead. Other physical raising will be done by Allah alone on the day of judgement, and also that dead people do not come back to life once they die.

If he did infact raise dead literally, then we find contradiction in Quran because Allah says only He will do it (literally), on the day of judgement. Not before it.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

But like i said, doesnt matter how i take His miracles to be.. it cannot be used as an argument that Jesus a.s went to heavens alive :)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[QUOTE]
If he did infact raise dead literally, then we find contradiction in Quran because Allah says only He will do it (literally), on the day of judgement. Not before it.
[/QUOTE]

your saying it cant be(raise dead to life + other miracles), true?