Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
I would like to ask you two questions for now:
1) What is your basis for understanding the term "ghaib" ??? 2) How can you demonstrate that belief in the "ghaib" has caused the strife and hardships for Muslims that you mention?
4 lines and a link if you wish ... but please avoid cluttering.
Dear psyah, ghaib is from root GHAIN, YAA and BAA and concrete root meaning of this root is absence but conceptually there are various meanings derived from it eg hidden, unknown, back biting, invisibility, depth of a wall, vanish, concealment, doubtfulness, setting of the sun, the moon or stars, travelling in the folds of the earth, gossip, slander and so on and so forth. I have explained in the other posts how derived meanings of roots are brought about.
For example, if we cannot see something, it is ghaib because it is not present before our eyes. Likewise future results of our actions are invisible till they show up. A plan we draw for building a house will not become a reality till it is all done. Likewise the program of Allah is only visible to us on paper or in our minds till we turn it into a reality through our working on it, so the reality related to divine program is ghaib till it become obvious.
So there are various way to interpret word ghaib depending on the purpose of user and the context in which the word is used. Anything is ghaib while it is ghaib and becomes obvious when it becomes mashhood ie obvious to witnesses of it. However, it would be better if you could help me understand your reason for asking me. I am not talking about ghaib rather I am talking about blind faith in the face of self evident reality. If you tell me God is Al GHAIB, I have no problem accepting that in the sense that I cannot see God, the being. However if you tell me something about ghaib that is unreasonable in lkight of self evident reality then I will not accept that because it contradicts self evident reality.
A case in mind could be that of existence of jinns in sense of supernatural creatures with supernatural powers that people believe in. I do not accept that, why not? Because it contradicts self evident realities. Also if anyone asks us how did we come to know that word jinn means that kind of creature that fascinated people like creative writers and story tellers then what can we tell anyone because we have not come across any such creature despite we being told it interacts with us?
There are plenty of books written on the subject of jijnns and magic but all are by fraudsters to create victims or ignorant mullas who have not done any research on this matter. It is the very same logic we use when we talk to christians for example. In the quran Allah tells us that how can he have a son when he has not even a wife. Will that be a valid argument if logical and rational reality was not taken into account ie purpose and context in which Allah is talking? Otherwise as ignorant muslims say Allah is God so he can do anything and that makes the whole thing senseless. Likewise context and purpose of things and concepts is very important.
Many time we can hear people say this world is not perfect or this quran is not perfect but the question is are they taking into account the purpose of things and their context? Without context and purpose nothing makes any sense neither universe nor quran or any human being. This is why we cannot afford to move away from the context and the purpose of things otherwise we become utterly lost.
Only if we want to have sense and want to make sense of things that anything matters not otherwise.
So please explain your point so that I could explain things further from my point of view if I understand your point.
regards and all the best.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
You did not read my question in full. I asked
There was a reason I asked if He a.s literally raised the dead, there must be some evidence from jewish books or any evidence from any book confirming this. But we find none.
I know about the verse which you’re talking about.
Do you know in Qur’an ‘dead’ is also described as one who is spiritually dead?
Do you know birds are described as the ones who accept the truth and will come flying to their master even if the master is far off from them?
Do you know blinds in Quran are described as the ones who are spiritually blind ?
What is it that prophet do without the ‘will of God’ ? Everything they do is by the ‘will of God’. Jesus a.s raised spiritually dead, cured spiritually blind people and breathe the spirit in birds.
Only God alone does all this ‘literally’. What Isa a.s have done is the responsibility of a prophet. To bring people to the true path.
I see you copying this ayaah so many times. I don’t have any perversity in my heart. I have mohkam verses of Quran.. and I interpret allegorical verses in accordance to the mohkam verses of Quran. I don’t need to rely on any misleading belief which contradict mohkam verses of Quran. The denying part is from your side. You call anything miracle if your belief goes against the mohkam verses of Quran. You are the one who seek refuge is allegorical verses of Quran.
I’ll give you example. Quran says all prophets were men. They all require food. Quran says you are to live and die on this Earth. Quran says Allah doesnt eat food and therefore dont require food to remain alive. What do you do ? You go against all these verses to suit your agenda!. You go against them all and surprisingly call it a miracle not thinking for once that you’re going against Qur’an. There are many examples like this. But ill stop here. Kindly look at your arguments and then read the verse you posted above.
Oh bhai mere.. that’s what i’m saying ! All prophets perform tasks by Allah’s leave. There are 2 meanings of dead in Quran. One who is spiritually dead, and one who is literally dead. One who is DEAD literally does NOT come back to life. Whose spiritually dead, prophets raise them alive by Allah’s leave.. by showing them truth. Allah is the ONLY one who will raise people who are dead on the day of judgement. There was a reason why i asked if any jew believed in Jesus after he raised dead? any instance you find where the dead raised told about his experience as being dead. Why such stubbornness ?
Read this verse .. 27:80 Verily, thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they turn back retreating. ( see 30:52 , 35:22 as well )
Referring to people who are spiritually dead. Or else, we know dead people dont hear. We know Muhammad PBUH was not sent as a messenger to dead people literally.
This is what Allah says about himself. Now this is speaking of literally.
36:12 Surely, We alone give life to the dead, and We record that which they send forward and that which they leave behind; and all things have We recorded in a clear Book.
One may argue that it may mean spiritually too, through messenger, but if you read the whole verse, its talking about when one literally dies and send forward his deeds..
**16:38 **And they swear by Allah their strongest oaths, that Allah will not raise up those who die. Nay, He will certainly raise them up — a promise He has made binding on Himself, but most people know not.
Choice is yours. You need to see where the term dead means what. Allah will raise ‘dead’ literally on day of judgement. Allah does not send back to Earth someone who is dead. Jesus a.s as a messenger raised spiritually dead, cured spiritually blind, ofcourse by Allah’s leave. Nothing a prophet does without His leave. But He a.s cannot perform such things which Allah says only he is capable of doing.
**
We dont see people believing in prophets when they show any miracle. Prophets are not sent to Earth to perform different kind of magical tricks. Those who are pious and God fearing demands no miracle from prophets. Abu Bakr r.a is an example.
Though I believe splitting of moon was a kashf but for argument sake, the miracle of Muhammad PBUH is different than Isa a.s. Muhammad PBUH didnt do something which Allah says only he does. Whereas, to you, Isa a.s did stuff which Allah says only he will do.
that is again your claim. You are welcome to keep claiming whatever you like. I’m interested in evidence that back up the claim. You are following Islam exactly how companions have understood it? ok.. if that makes you happy. Allah has promised to keep Quran intact and the words in it intact. Ahadith were compiled some 200 years after Muhammad PBUH death. There is a fair amount of chance that when Isa a.s comes, he will tell you where you’ve been wrong. But even then, you will actually reject prophet of Allah for the mere reason that he does not have the authority to tell you what true Islam is simply because Islam that you understood is exactly how companions understood it (which again is just a claim ).
Where will the verse of Quran go that says Jesus is alive in heavens, when Jesus a.s actually returns ? Will you take away that verse ? do you believe Quran to be a book that has an expiry date ?
Question again is.. why will he not be able to raise dead and cure blind in his second coming ? If he a.s is the same prophet… why wont he be able to do it again ? 
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
So why is it that you believe in God, but do not believe in Jinn? If God is hidden from view like Jinn are then why is it that you can accept God and not Jinn?
Self-evident - that means obvious doesn't it? Isn't that the opposite of Ghaib? So you only believe in what is concealed unless it is obvious? That is oxymoronic ... Except when it comes to God - who you believe in because He is Invisible ... But you do not want to apply that logic to Jinn - for them despite being mentioned in the Qur'an, are not self-evident - and are hence rejected as 'real' ... This is gonna need another explanation ... please differentiate why you apply a different standard for God and yet a different standard for Jinn?
You call the references to Jinn .... fraudsters ... why don't you call the people who believe in God that too? Afterall, except for you guys the are the same people who believe in Jinn.
Now lets talk about angels ... as a person who is not of your following - how would I discern the reality of God yet at the same time determine that angels are not real? I'm only guessing here - you see I am totally unsure whether you believe in angels or not ...
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Mr.Popat
So raising spiritually blind people means “guiding people” … raising spiritually dead people means “guiding people” and breathing life in to a bird means “guiding someone” … Do you detect a problem here?
Oh we do see people believing in prophets when they do miracles - it is layered throughout history that many people accepted them with their gifts and miracles and many did not …
Regarding ahadith compilation being 200 years that is excessive - 50 or 60 years at the most … and they were the best of followers.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
[QUOTE]
I don't think anyone would deny the truthfulness of such a person having Godly powers.
[/QUOTE]
this is answered directly in the Quran
And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allah willed, but most of them behave ignorantly.6-111
...Let him then bring us an Ayah (sign as a proof) like the ones (Prophets) the former were sent (with)!"21:5
brothers has anyone noticed popat stays away from mentioning the lepers, as it involves a physical change?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Popat - never be that sure!
John 11:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
**
John 11:23-27**
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
**
John 11:38-43**
Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead
38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”
44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
Watch the incidence here:
Some more
20 Then he cried out to the LORD, “LORD my God, have you brought tragedy even on this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?”
21 Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the LORD, “LORD my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”
22And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 1 Kings 20 - 22
32 When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch.
33 He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD.
34 Then he got on the bed and lay upon the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out upon him, the boy’s body grew warm.
35 Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out upon him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. 2 Kings 4:32-35
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Yes We Muslims go for the obvious first and don’t for the allegory meaning unless of course if the Prophet Muhammad (saw) had explained so.
It is common knowledge among Muslims that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (ra) performed miracles literally as mentioned in the Quran.
I don’t have much time but got the following for your benefit:
According to a reliable narration from Imam as-Sadiq ‘Isa had once gone up mountain named Areehaa. Satan approached him in the form of the King of Palestine and said, “O Roohullaah (Spirit of Allah), since you make the dead alive and cure the ill and the blind and the leprous just make yourself fall down from this hill.” ‘Isa replied, “I do everything as ordered by Allah and He has not commanded me to do so.”
It is also recorded according to the same sources that once upon a time the crafty Iblis came to ‘Isa and told him, “Are you the one who claims to be able to make the dead alive?” said, “Yes.” Satan said, “If you are telling the truth, just make yourself fall off this wall and show us that you are still alive thereafter.
” ‘Isa replied, ‘Woe unto you! a slave who is subordinate to the commands of Allah cannot experiment upon himself as he likes.” Then Iblis said, “Is your Lord able enough to close up the entire universe into an egg without shortening the universe or enlarging the egg?” ‘Isa replied, “Inability can never apply to Allah. What you ask for is absurd and hence unlikely to happen and this is not against the perfection of the ability of Allah.”
Hayat Al-Qulub Vol. 1, Stories of the Prophets
The ayah is very clear that the people will look for allegory meanings from the first go to meet their required agendas. - We believe in Miracles of Allah Almighty – Full stop.
You sir, are relying on the so-called Wahi received by MGAQ.
Watch the video again – listen to the last sentence that after watching the miracle the people believed in him.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Popat – Is Abu Lahab dead? How do you recite Surah Al- Lahab?
The surah still talks about future – Was it changed when Abu Lahab was killed to past tense???
Al-Lahab
111:1] Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.
111:2] His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
111:3] He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
111:4] And his wife, the bearer of fuel,
111:5] Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.
Are you going to read the above in past tense???
Simple there won’t be need for it miracles, and he is not coming back as a prophet.
I’ll try to answer other when I get the time.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
this is answered directly in the Quran
And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allah willed, but most of them behave ignorantly.6-111
...Let him then bring us an Ayah (sign as a proof) like the ones (Prophets) the former were sent (with)!"21:5
brothers has anyone noticed popat stays away from mentioning the lepers, as it involves a physical change?
Popat ** Brother **shardmanny has made a very valid point - read the whole ayah in context and now tell the allegory meaning of healing the leprous.
[QUOTE]
I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission
[/QUOTE]
If there is no allegory meaning for the 'healing of leprous' than you cannot choose the same for the others -"heal the blind" & "bring the dead to life with Allah's permission" - Keep everything in the same context.
Good point brother shardmanny
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
So why is it that you believe in God, but do not believe in Jinn? If God is hidden from view like Jinn are then why is it that you can accept God and not Jinn?
Self-evident - that means obvious doesn't it? Isn't that the opposite of Ghaib? So you only believe in what is concealed unless it is obvious? That is oxymoronic ... Except when it comes to God - who you believe in because He is Invisible ... But you do not want to apply that logic to Jinn - for them despite being mentioned in the Qur'an, are not self-evident - and are hence rejected as 'real' ... This is gonna need another explanation ... please differentiate why you apply a different standard for God and yet a different standard for Jinn?
You call the references to Jinn .... fraudsters ... why don't you call the people who believe in God that too? Afterall, except for you guys the are the same people who believe in Jinn.
Now lets talk about angels ... as a person who is not of your following - how would I discern the reality of God yet at the same time determine that angels are not real? I'm only guessing here - you see I am totally unsure whether you believe in angels or not ...
Dear brother psyah, please correct yourself I do believe in jinns because the quran mentions them but I differ in the definition of those beings the quran is talking about. I take jinns to be things or being the quran explains in light of self evident realities. I do not take jinns to mean the way people make up stories about them. Those stories cannot be true that make them supernatural beings or with supernatural powers. I have same problem with accepting that magic is anything supernatural and for same reason I have problem with accepting so called any miraculous events told about by people throughout the world. The main reason is these things serve no good purpose and can be explained in ordinary way so why make them something extraordinary for no reason at all? This way we think we are proving something but in actual fact we end up disproving it. Therefore why someone should not accept an ordinary explanation for things when it makes perfect sense and go onto make beliefs? To me it is sign of ignorance about the actual reality of these things so whatever people cannot explain or do not learn explanations of them from those who can explain they just make up any stories about them and start spreading those stories and then time comes that people take them to extreme level and so they become very very harmful.
If these make beliefs were harmless no one will bother countering them but because they destroy a human society therefore they are and they must be opposed by way of educating people out of these things. That is what the quran came to counter in the first place.
Let me try and explain it if I may, suppose we are children and our mothers frightened us about something right from the start because we are mischievous, how long are we going to be frightened about it? For as long as the truth does not become exposed for us we will always react to those fears. Likewise when people tell so much nonsense to each other that is frightening, so long as people remain ignorant about its reality it keep them frightened.
You and I are both part of this world and we see so many ignorant people doing all sorts of ignorant things in the name of so many made up things and ideas. Spirits, jinns and magic etc etc are all part of that kind of mindset.
Concept of God is a different thing because it is explained by the quran in light of universal realities that makes sense and there is no acceptable better alternative explanation of things. So there are good reasons to accept existence of God, the creator, the provider and the guider but there are no good reasons to accept existence of other supernatural beings and powers. The main reason is that alternative explanations exists for terms used for this purpose and also the wrong concepts attached to the terms are very harmful for uneducated and illiterate masses.
For example, due to so called taweez taaga, there is ample fightings in the house between mother in laws and daughter in laws. Each time things happen to anyone he finds an enemy within the family, friends or rivals. Not only that people who claim such powers take full advantage of ignorant people both psychologically and physically. It is mind game people play on each other. Just as clever people take advantage of ignorant people in other thing in life it gives them more ways to exploit them remotely yet more. When a mother in law and daughter in law fight over something simple, a 3rd person comes along telling them they are fighting because they are under some magic spell. So a simple fight which could be resolved by7 simple explanation is turned into an unending battle. The while this house is being ruined the mr magic man makes money both from mother in law and daughter in law and as they believe in him more and more, soon they will be his victims otherwise as well.
So to attribute all such nonsense to the quran is not right. All because the quran is book of clear guidance not confusion. If the quran itself led to all sorts of confusions then it will be a useless book because a book that is full of nonsense cannot guide anyone. The very claim that it is word of God, frees it from being taken as a book of pooja paat and jhaad phoonk, taweez taaga or magic spells. The real purpose of the quran is to guide people to the ways whereby they can remove all man made ills from their society so that the human society is at ease within itself. Those nations that will work towards its set out goal according to its set out guidelines will be awarded dually ie great life in this world as well as in hereafter.
Since the quran tells us to seek good life in here and hereafter after, it gives us insight into proper understanding of the quran, how? Because if we as a nation understand its message properly then by acting upon it we will have the better life in here and if we succeed in doing that then we are also sure that whatever the book says about here after will come true because it did not fail us in this life. Not only that our success in this life will prove to us that we have understood the book properly.
If by following the quran we end up worst than all other nations then either the quran is wrong or that we have not understood is properly. It is impossible that the quran be the word of all knowing, understood by us humans properly and followed faithfully by us yet we fail. We know for a fact that the quran is word of God because no matter much we misinterpret it and misrepresent it, it proves right in many of its statements that are not possible by humans in any way. It is because humans are still not that rational as the quran is about things. This is why it is not human work. So if the quran is word of God and we claim to act on it yet if we are still failing ourselves, we must question our understanding of it and must have another go at it and keep repeating it till we get it right and then act upon it as we should.
You see if I want to build a house the first thing I need is planning. The plan has to be exactly right as I want the building to be. If I start building the building without any planning or without understanding it properly I am unlikely to end up with what I want. Likewise if we do not understand the plan of God and do not act according to his program then we will not get the result that we are promised by him instead we will get what we make of it. The way the world is today and the way the people are, does it tell us we are heading the right way? By results of our actions it is clear that we are doing some things right as well as many wrong things because had we been doing everything bright then this could not be the result. So it is time for us to understand the divine will properly and implement it properly and then keep an eye on results, why? Because results will give us feedback whereby if we are doings things right results will improve and if we are doing them wrong we can quickly take steps to correct our errors. If we fail to monitor our progress towards the goal then we will not be able to discover our errors quickly and keep going in the wrong direction and suffer losses for a long while. As I already explained that even though guidance is fine we are humans so not free of trial and error in sense of trying to understand the divine plan and in sense of acting upon it. This is why Allah told us, he does not change state of a nation for the better unless it changes itself. This is telling us to keep monitoring where we are heading and if we sense any errors along the way due to bad results then correct the error and carry on.
Allah did not create people for hell but for paradise but he created them in simple state to develop into higher state of existence and guided them how they can do that. Failing that they can end up in hell of their own making. This is the way Allah has chosen to set up the world and because we were not there to raise objections at his plan at the time, so now it is too late to say anything. It is time for us to get on with things and do whatever we can to help ourselves. It is because if we do not do that then what choice we have other than suffering the consequences of our own laziness and craziness? So if we have better sense for our own benefit then we should follow it rather than fight against things that land us in yet more troubles than we already are.
regards and all the best.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Dear brother psyah, please correct yourself I do believe in jinns because the quran mentions them but I differ in the definition of those beings the quran is talking about. I take jinns to be things or being the quran explains in light of self evident realities. I do not take jinns to mean the way people make up stories about them. Those stories cannot be true that make them supernatural beings or with supernatural powers. I have same problem with accepting that magic is anything supernatural and for same reason I have problem with accepting so called any miraculous events told about by people throughout the world. The main reason is these things serve no good purpose and can be explained in ordinary way so why make them something extraordinary for no reason at all? This way we think we are proving something but in actual fact we end up disproving it. Therefore why someone should not accept an ordinary explanation for things when it makes perfect sense and go onto make beliefs? To me it is sign of ignorance about the actual reality of these things so whatever people cannot explain or do not learn explanations of them from those who can explain they just make up any stories about them and start spreading those stories and then time comes that people take them to extreme level and so they become very very harmful.
If these make beliefs were harmless no one will bother countering them but because they destroy a human society therefore they are and they must be opposed by way of educating people out of these things. That is what the quran came to counter in the first place.
Let me try and explain it if I may, suppose we are children and our mothers frightened us about something right from the start because we are mischievous, how long are we going to be frightened about it? For as long as the truth does not become exposed for us we will always react to those fears. Likewise when people tell so much nonsense to each other that is frightening, so long as people remain ignorant about its reality it keep them frightened.
You and I are both part of this world and we see so many ignorant people doing all sorts of ignorant things in the name of so many made up things and ideas. Spirits, jinns and magic etc etc are all part of that kind of mindset.
Concept of God is a different thing because it is explained by the quran in light of universal realities that makes sense and there is no acceptable better alternative explanation of things. So there are good reasons to accept existence of God, the creator, the provider and the guider but there are no good reasons to accept existence of other supernatural beings and powers. The main reason is that alternative explanations exists for terms used for this purpose and also the wrong concepts attached to the terms are very harmful for uneducated and illiterate masses.
For example, due to so called taweez taaga, there is ample fightings in the house between mother in laws and daughter in laws. Each time things happen to anyone he finds an enemy within the family, friends or rivals. Not only that people who claim such powers take full advantage of ignorant people both psychologically and physically. It is mind game people play on each other. Just as clever people take advantage of ignorant people in other thing in life it gives them more ways to exploit them remotely yet more. When a mother in law and daughter in law fight over something simple, a 3rd person comes along telling them they are fighting because they are under some magic spell. So a simple fight which could be resolved by7 simple explanation is turned into an unending battle. The while this house is being ruined the mr magic man makes money both from mother in law and daughter in law and as they believe in him more and more, soon they will be his victims otherwise as well.
So to attribute all such nonsense to the quran is not right. All because the quran is book of clear guidance not confusion. If the quran itself led to all sorts of confusions then it will be a useless book because a book that is full of nonsense cannot guide anyone. The very claim that it is word of God, frees it from being taken as a book of pooja paat and jhaad phoonk, taweez taaga or magic spells. The real purpose of the quran is to guide people to the ways whereby they can remove all man made ills from their society so that the human society is at ease within itself. Those nations that will work towards its set out goal according to its set out guidelines will be awarded dually ie great life in this world as well as in hereafter.
Since the quran tells us to seek good life in here and hereafter after, it gives us insight into proper understanding of the quran, how? Because if we as a nation understand its message properly then by acting upon it we will have the better life in here and if we succeed in doing that then we are also sure that whatever the book says about here after will come true because it did not fail us in this life. Not only that our success in this life will prove to us that we have understood the book properly.
If by following the quran we end up worst than all other nations then either the quran is wrong or that we have not understood is properly. It is impossible that the quran be the word of all knowing, understood by us humans properly and followed faithfully by us yet we fail. We know for a fact that the quran is word of God because no matter much we misinterpret it and misrepresent it, it proves right in many of its statements that are not possible by humans in any way. It is because humans are still not that rational as the quran is about things. This is why it is not human work. So if the quran is word of God and we claim to act on it yet if we are still failing ourselves, we must question our understanding of it and must have another go at it and keep repeating it till we get it right and then act upon it as we should.
You see if I want to build a house the first thing I need is planning. The plan has to be exactly right as I want the building to be. If I start building the building without any planning or without understanding it properly I am unlikely to end up with what I want. Likewise if we do not understand the plan of God and do not act according to his program then we will not get the result that we are promised by him instead we will get what we make of it. The way the world is today and the way the people are, does it tell us we are heading the right way? By results of our actions it is clear that we are doing some things right as well as many wrong things because had we been doing everything bright then this could not be the result. So it is time for us to understand the divine will properly and implement it properly and then keep an eye on results, why? Because results will give us feedback whereby if we are doings things right results will improve and if we are doing them wrong we can quickly take steps to correct our errors. If we fail to monitor our progress towards the goal then we will not be able to discover our errors quickly and keep going in the wrong direction and suffer losses for a long while. As I already explained that even though guidance is fine we are humans so not free of trial and error in sense of trying to understand the divine plan and in sense of acting upon it. This is why Allah told us, he does not change state of a nation for the better unless it changes itself. This is telling us to keep monitoring where we are heading and if we sense any errors along the way due to bad results then correct the error and carry on.
Allah did not create people for hell but for paradise but he created them in simple state to develop into higher state of existence and guided them how they can do that. Failing that they can end up in hell of their own making. This is the way Allah has chosen to set up the world and because we were not there to raise objections at his plan at the time, so now it is too late to say anything. It is time for us to get on with things and do whatever we can to help ourselves. It is because if we do not do that then what choice we have other than suffering the consequences of our own laziness and craziness? So if we have better sense for our own benefit then we should follow it rather than fight against things that land us in yet more troubles than we already are.
regards and all the best.
Peace Mughal1
Please substantiate the claim that believing in miracles harms society. I have not experienced this. Just to clarify, i'm not asking if you believe in Jinn being monsters that possess people, Do you at least not take them to be living beings that are invisible to us, with their own families and there are good and bad among them. That they are made from smokeless fire like we are made from clay ... Do you believe these to be actual/literal statements?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
:salam: Brother psyah Pseudo-Intellectualism is a mind-set which finds comfort or self-satisfying pleasure of being elitist – Once in this mental tunnel the obvious has to be something very complicated.
I am sure you made a passing remark somewhere in this thread that Mirza Tahir (was supposed to be intellectual giant from Ahmadiyyah leadership) took Jinn to mean bacteria. Not only that, he has given other meanings to Jinn too.
*The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye could well be described by this word.
This proposition is fully endorsed by a tradition of the Holy Prophet (sa) in which he strongly admonishes people not to use dried up lumps of dung or bones of dead animals for cleaning themselves after attending to the call of nature because they are food for the jinn. As we use toilet paper now, at that time people used lumps of earth, stones or any dry article close at hand to clean themselves.
We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophet (sa) referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.*
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Let me try to understand why we are talking about miracles at the moment. It is because your argument is that because Jesus could do all this, thus he can also go to heaven. This is the argument you're putting forth. I've said it countless times that it is a very illogical argument. It is not convincing enough. Sorry, i follow Quran, not just a heresy
I said there are 2 meanings that we find in Quran about people who are said to be dead. One is in its literal meaning, another means who are spiritually dead. Allah says in Quran that only He will raise dead on the day of judgement. Allah also says that once someone dies, they're not sent back to Earth. (literally dead, not talking about sleep here, as thats a temporary death.. let's not get into more details on this).
For simplicity sake, how does it matter how I take miracles to be ? In fact, the way I take the miracles of Isa a.s does not contradict anything from Quran. I stay away from every sort of shirk possible. My firm belief is that Jesus a.s was no more than a messenger, who was a human being just like us. Time affected him just how it affected other human beings in His time. He a.s needed food as a source to sustain himself. He needed to go to washroom, needed to do grocery and everything else like us humans. All prophets were like this. My belief that his miracles of raising dead is to be taken metaphorically. Why does this bother you? If you're suggesting he did all this literally, and even if i believe he did, whats the next step ? Because he did all this, that means he can go to heavens too ? Oh, please !
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
It's rather strange how you claim to be a follower of Muhammad pbuh and when it comes to giving proof, you turn to bible, and give me reference of a book which according to you is NOT the standard by which we should be talking. If it is, then you must believe in Bible as a whole and not pick anything you feel like is true and leave anything you feel like as false.
I've asked this simple question. If he raised dead, does it mean Allah is nauzubillah wrong in Quran where He says only he will raise dead? Are you denying Islamic belief that once one dies, he does not come back ? i do not want to argue on what isa a.s's miracles were. You can in no way prove that Isa a.s raised to heavens.
Keep in mind. I am not the one running after mutashabihaat verses. You are the one who is doing that. You have made up one belief and now you do not care about whatever else Allah says anywhere in Quran. You will interpret Quran according to your belief rather than modifying your beliefs based on what Quran tells you. Very sad.
@shardmanny : That is exactly what i'm trying to make you people understand. Allah says even if disbelievers were to see so many other miracles, they will still not believe. In another verse Allah says, these disbelievers swear after swear that we will believe just after seeing one miracle. Allah says they will not. Why is it that people dont believe even after seeing miracles ? If everything is known to you and is shown to you openly.. what have you done yourself ? That's what I'm saying. Even after seeing the miracles, people will not believe, whats the point of those miracles ? I thank Allah for showing me the truth. I thank Him for not making my heart to believe in such stuff which results in shirk. I thank Him for not making me one of you, who claim to be following one God, but also believe Jesus a.s to be as close to God ( by your beliefs ). How strange is this that Jesus a.s alone is the prophet who is believed by orthodox muslims as someone who had almost close to the attributes of Allah. No other prophet but Jesus a.s.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
I'll cut the chase for you guys for ease purposes. My belief is that everything in Quran is perfect. No changes has ever been made in Quran. No changes can ever be made in it. It's a book that has no contradiction in it. Its a book in which there are mohkam ayaat and mutashaabhihat ayaat. Mohkam ayaat are the core of Quran. We must make our beliefs in accordance to mohkam verses of Quran. Mutashaabay verses are the ones which needs to be interpreted in accordance to mohkam verses.
For example :
Mohkam verses >> ( in my own words ) >> All prophets were men. All prophets needed food
You are to live on this earth and die on this earth. Allah alone will raise dead on the day of judgement. You do not come back to life when you're dead (not in form of sleep but dead ). Allah take away someone's soul in 2 case. 1) when they are dead. 2) when they are in state of sleep.
Now, these are verses which are mohkam, meaning they require no explanation and are self explanatory. When these verses are presented to you, you purposely take out a different meaning from it to fit in your belief of Jesus a.s being alive. This is how you respond :
they needed food to live on earth. Jesus a.s is sustained in some other manner.
live and die on earth ? that is not true. You CAN live outside of Earth (giving all sort of weird explanation. You need oxygen to live outside of earth as i explained early) and CAN die outside of Earth too.. ( ok that means Allah is nauzubillah lying in that verse .. )
Not only Allah, but Jesus also raised dead literally.
You do not come back to life ? Jesus raised dead people.
there are more than 2 ways Allah take away someone's soul.
Do you see what i'm saying ? Either you take Quran to be the word of Allah and do not question the mohkam verses. If you dont take Quran as that then go make beliefs what ever you like. there's no limit to your imagination.
You explain some stuff in such manner as to nauzubillah elevate his status to that of God. Though, by tongue you do not say it but your beliefs are enough to make a sane person believe that you are infact making jesus a.s God. For simplicity sake, though I could write more and more about how taking literal meaning of Jesus raising dead is wrong... He raised dead.. thereby making Christian belief even stronger that he was God. Yeah, he did it by Allah's leave.. but thats again not important to Christian. He did it. You believe it and so do they. How are you any different than them man? seriously !
As for your saying that Jesus wont be prophet... You need to sit with your ullama and decide on one thing and then stick to it. Either Isa a.s will be prophet or he will not be prophet. That's quite a belief that Isa a.s will not be a prophet. You are thereby rejecting his prophethood and as a muslim you must believe in all messengers of Allah.
Enough said for the day. Digest that for today. :) Peace.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Let me try to understand why we are talking about miracles at the moment. It is because your argument is that because Jesus could do all this, thus he can also go to heaven. This is the argument you're putting forth. I've said it countless times that it is a very illogical argument. It is not convincing enough. Sorry, i follow Quran, not just a heresy!
**
Popat** you are not reading the posts well - Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) did everything NOT OF HIS OWN but by the WILL and LEAVE of Allah Almighty - of his own he couldn't do it. He didn't go to heaven on his own. It is Allah Almighty WHO DID IT.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
I'll cut the chase for you guys for ease purposes. My belief is that everything in Quran is perfect. No changes has ever been made in Quran. No changes can ever be made in it. It's a book that has no contradiction in it. Its a book in which there are mohkam ayaat and mutashaabhihat ayaat. Mohkam ayaat are the core of Quran. We must make our beliefs in accordance to mohkam verses of Quran. Mutashaabay verses are the ones which needs to be interpreted in accordance to mohkam verses..
*Popat * You are taking the blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) out of the loop :-
The criteria to understand and explain the Quran is as such:
1) First of all Quran explains itself
2) Secondly we use the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to understand the Quran
3) Thirdly we use the Ijma As-Sahabah
4) Forthly, Qiyas and Ijtihad (Using Reason and Logic)
mohkam ayaat – can be understood as Quran explains itself in other verses. No problems here.
[QUOTE]
Mutashaabay verses are the ones which needs to be interpreted in accordance to mohkam verses.
[/QUOTE]
For these to be interpreted have to be understood in accordance to mohkam verses (as you say) but we have to refer to the blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) – Because he has already explained them. He did his job well and made sure that he had explained everything - He left nothing unexplained!
On his demise Islam was complete nothing new could be added to Islam.
Then we refer to the Ijma As-Sahabah as they understood from the Blessed Prophet (saw) it to derive to the required conclusion.
Lastly we use Qiyas and Ijtihad (Using Reason and Logic) and this won’t independent from the first 3 points.
You sir, are deliberately ignoring the steps 2 and 3.
The reason for you (and Ahmadis) doing so is obvious.
Mr. MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi had rejected most of the hadith and interprets the Quran using his ‘so-called Wahi’
Naturally you are going to deviate from the Message of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) to the one propagated by Mr. MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Respected Ibn Sadique
There is a chasm that these rationalist/reductionists don’t see … it is that they are inconsistent …
If an atheist presented the argument of God being untrue because it is not self-evident they will resist that claim and provide lots of inductive reasoning why God exists, but when WE Muslims claim that Jinn, Angels and Jannah are true they use the same arguments that the atheists use against us … in other elements of The Ghaib …
Furthermore … they belie and call the narrators fraudsters who portray the unworldy creatures as true … claiming that they harm society, but the same people brought us God also … Don’t they see this?
Our references for Qur’an and Hadith have followed the same level of authenticity and if we reject the hadith while confirm the Qur’an then we are being hypocritical. If, the honourable Ibn Kathir were to say that a Jinn came to a companion and they had a conversation would that be evidence enough for them? No because they would want to see it for themselves … but when it comes to God they don’t have that criterion …
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
Please substantiate the claim that believing in miracles harms society. I have not experienced this. Just to clarify, i'm not asking if you believe in Jinn being monsters that possess people, Do you at least not take them to be living beings that are invisible to us, with their own families and there are good and bad among them. That they are made from smokeless fire like we are made from clay ... Do you believe these to be actual/literal statements?
Dear psyah, as for talking about miracles and jinns, it is not for me to substantiate anything in this regard but for people who lay claims of this nature. It is not my claim that these things happen but of others. I just oppose these ideas because there is no sense in them as I see things. Of course if anyone can prove these things true then because I follow evidence I will accept that. Just because the quran uses certain words and people take them to mean certain things does not mean people have understood them correctly. However the point I will highlight is, since the quran is word of God it ought to contain point of view of God on things as well as of people because God narrates their stories so when we attribute anything to the quran we need to take the appropriate point of view in to account respectively. We should not impose our human points of views on God.
Let us take word jinn, it is from root JEEM, NOON and NOON. The first question is the origin of this root? Is there any proof that humans invented this word for such beings that they could never even think about never mind come across them? If we cannot interact with jinns how did they come to know so many things about them in order to label them with this word? This proves that word jinn was originally invented for something that was a concrete reality not something out of make belief.
The concrete root meanings of this word is cover. All the rest of meanings of this word are derived root meanings and there are plenty of them. Again one has to remember the rule that derived meanings are derived through explanations as concepts attributed to this root. For example, night covers up things due to darkness thereby hides them. Word jannah=garden=blissful place it is derived from root JNN. Likewise word MAJNOON=mad person is derived from the same root. The question is, how this one root can have so many meanings? The answer is because all other meanings have something to do with cover. The garden is called garden because thickness of vegetation hides things from view or that garden is such a pleasant place that while one is in there one enjoys its beauty so other things therefore remain hidden from his attention ie remain covered up. Similarly word majnoon is derived from the same root because when one goes mad his normal sense becomes covered up or hidden by it. It is like when one is angry one loses his sense of proper judgement ie rage dominates calm state of mind. Likewise people who are influential are called jinns because they over shadow others as if they cover up everyone else from the view. In other words when a bigger personality is around the other smaller personalities become over shadowed by it ie it carries sense of dominance.
An expert or skilled person is also called a jinn because he cover the certain field of knowledge by his mastery over it. Likewise possession by jinn is simply put an influence of a person on another person or thing. People do get influenced by each other or things, some less others more. People fall in love with things or other people. People hate each other or things because they cannot stand certain things or people. Thus word cover is used for hiding things or to protect things or to expose them by removal of cover. Strangers are also called jinns because they are not familiar or that they do not mix with others so they keep their distance from others for their own reasons.
The root JNN has many meanings eg demon, giant, expert, insane, isolation, strange/r, foreign/er, outsider, high profile, dominant, prominent, privileged, important person, mischievous, clever, nomad, leader, noble, someone powerful, a person with means or influence, chief, garden, serpent, snake, pregnancy, someone who rules over a domain or is master of his field of knowledge, something that over shadows something or covers it or hides it etc etc.
This being the case how do we come to know that word jinn in the quran is used only and only for the creatures that we have in our own imagination?
In my view unless we can answer question like the ones I am asking honestly for ourselves from the quran itself in light of realities of real word it is not right to make it an issue or belief that has no basis. otherwise by attaching senseless meanings to word we turn the quran into a book that makes no sense which means when educated people throw their questions at us about things that we attribute to the quran then we cannot answer them. The best approach therefore is to only put that much quran across as much we can understand clearly and about the rest invite all experts to try coming up with sensible explanations. It is because we have the actual text of the quran, we also have the meanings of its words fully preserved all we need to do is find out how the quranic text makes best sense in light of its own text, within the meanings the words have in light of the realities that the quran is talking about within its wider context and purpose. So any meanings that fit with the quranic agenda, purpose and context are fine and it matters not who has succeeded in discovering that meanings of the text or when because the quran is book of wisdom and wisdom takes time and effort for people to become wise enough to understand the wisdom in the quran ie people are not born experts on the quranic wisdom they need to learn it.
These like points give people right to have a go on the quran and see what they make of the quran and then discuss their individual finding with each other to see which of them is best explanation and adopt that for unity rather than trying to unite people on basis of make beliefs.
If we must discuss word jinn as used in the quran then it is important that we discuss other words as well that seem to be related eg words like MALAAIKAH, NAAS, SHAYATEEN, AADAM, IBLEES etc. It is because there is a definite purpose to use of all these words for people. Only if people try to explore the quran that they will discover the right meanings of word otherwise merely reiterating what has already been discredited is no way to gaining new insight into things. The same is true if people limit themselves by make beliefs and try to prove them instead of following the lead wherever it leads as guidance. A guidance is useless if I am going to bend it around my ideas that make no sense and have no basis. Likewise I cannot explore or research anything properly if I have concluded the outcome already through make beliefs.
Coming to miracles, it is very hard to define miracles and yet more difficult if not altogether impossible to prove them.
regards and all the best.