Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Explain what? My sentence is self-explanatory …
Sayyiduna Ibrahim (AS) did not burn after being thrown in the fire
Now read my sentence above … 
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Please look for alternative explanations of story of prophet ibraheem. He was not thrown in real fire nor saved from that. This is fire that is burning us all even today ie fire of hatred that results from mistreating each other. Allah saved prophet ibraheem through his revealed program which is al about repairing the rifts between people to bind them in brotherhood thus ending the hatred.
The quran tells us same about prophet muhammad's companions ie how they were at the brink of destruction through hatred based warfare and Allah saved them through quran, the program for brotherhood.
You will learn that the orthodox belief of Islam is that both the physical and metaphoric interpretations of all miracles events and stories from the Qur'an are true ... What you have given is a deeper meaning to the account that actually happened. We have to believe it actually happened.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
As I said above those miracles that doesn't cause contradiction within Quran. 1) All humans must pass A. 2) X is a human but he bypassed A. yeah but that was a miracle.
Accepting 2 as a miracle/exception cause contradiction so you need to dig deep to avoid contradictions since the holy Quran is the word of Allah and is free of contradictions
Yes ... you are right ... If ALL humans must pass A ... then it follows X if human should also pass A ... but 1) Doesn't have a time limit ... it merely states ALL humans must pass A ... WHEN?
It is important ...
If X =5 years old and is alive then obviously X has not passed A ... is that a contradiction? No ... It is an insufficient scenario to bind into a contradiction. You need more info !!!
Let me help you:
1) All humans must pass A by Judgement Day
2) X is human and has no passed A and Judgement Day has not come yet ...
No contradiction. Here A is the time of their own death.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Ibn Sadique,
Heres the thing. You dont have to write paragraphs after paragraphs trying to get an answer of something you will not believe in even if the answer is given to you. My humble request would be to go to alislam.org and do some research yourself.
Now that being said, you must have an issue with the claim that he made. Claim that He a.s is the promised Messiah and the Imam Mahdi. Before you jump on to anything else, you primary response should be : 'Wait.. he cannot be Messiah. Messiah is not dead. Jesus a.s will be literally coming back from heavens alive. Whereas, Hz Ahmad(as) was born.' This is what your response should be as a Muslim. This is your belief. This is what you need to discuss first. It should not matter to you one bit what He claimed. Your belief is that Jesus a.s is alive and only he will be coming back. Therefore, that is the question that needs to be addressed first.
I hope now you will avoid talking about Hz Ahmad(as) as no matter what answer is given to you, you will not believe. Why dont we tackle the belief of Jesus a.s's ascension first and everything will make sense to you afterwards?
Popat My beliefs are what the dear Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) told us - He has given us the full description of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) - Where and how he will come - The Blessed Prophet (saw) Rahmatul Alameen has given us the full description of Mahdi (ra) and also warned his Ummah to take great care not to follow the great imposters who will claim to be prophets.
That's the criteria I follow. Believe me I don't dislike any of you; just feel sorry for you. You people are so near yet so far from Islam of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw). Blessed are those whom Allah Almighty has blessed with deen of His beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw).
Once you accept deen of Prophet Muhammad (saw) without any reservations - You will understand that nothing is impossible for Allah Almighty - All He has to say is: 'BE' - It HAPPENS
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
As I said above those miracles that doesn't cause contradiction within Quran. 1) All humans must pass A. 2) X is a human but he bypassed A. yeah but that was a miracle.
Accepting 2 as a miracle/exception cause contradiction so you need to dig deep to avoid contradictions since the holy Quran is the word of Allah and is free of contradictions
thanks, and interesting example
yes we also feel there is no contradiction in our schools understanding
of course you dont have to answer if you dont feel up to it for any reason but jamaat ahmediya has alot of beliefs which are different from mainstream islam and the example you have given is seemingly munkar of Isa AS's miraculous birth
[QUOTE]
1) All humans must pass A.
2) X is a human but he bypassed A.
yeah but that was a miracle.
[/QUOTE]
the reason im asking is because the lahori site i quoted in post 466 claim mgaq
said to a man presenting Quran verses in support of his denial of miracle birth of Isa AS: *`Your arguments are certainly strong, but until God gives me to understand this point, I will follow the views of the majority of Muslims'
*In the statement i see the magnetic force here acting both ways. if you have an opinion on the birth, what is it?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Dear brother psyah, please think why Allah is keep arguing against wrong people seeking proof of them for their beliefs? Kufaar claim things and Allah says, were you there when I did such and such? The very fact that Allah argues his point to educate people is undeniable proof that making people understand each other is real hard work. Why would Allah tell people to invite others to islam through wisdom in a good manner?
This shows that Allah does not do your kind of miracles, he instead argues his case to make his points against people who are victims of make beliefs. He is trying to stop them from their nonsense by way of reasoning things. It means in sight of Allah reasoning based upon the obvious is the only way to prove or disprove claims.
For last 1400 + years how many miracle have happened? That is obvious from the state of ummah. Many of us now think we are going the wrong way round and that wrong way is our dependency on miracles that do not happen but we have been instilled a false belief. This is why while others are making miracles happen we are sitting like ducks as a nation waiting for miracles to happen for us. Can you see how kufaar have surrounded us while we are stuck in mullas’ nonsense?
sir syed pulled this ummah out of the mess but it went back in there though not completely.
Sir sayyed Ahmed Khan - YouTube
Our make beliefs have not helped us but kept us from doing what we were supposed to do. We were stopped by our ignorance in the name of the quran from the program of the quran. The result is where we are today because Allah does not change for people anything by miracles rather they need to do as told by Allah to benefit themselves. Allah gave us program to work according to not miracles. So long as we wait for miracles to happen and do not work according to cut out program, the goal of peace set for us by Allah will remain unaccomplished.
The problem with your arguments is that you do not have any over all objective and you do not have solid arguments to show that what you are saying is right. So you have no starting point and no finishing point and so your arguments remain incomplete because they lack clarity of purpose in them and when you have nothing to prove you have nothing to prove it with.
What you need to do is set out over all goal and the context for accomplishing that goal and then supporting argument that in your view will show link between all lose ends and ensure their are no broken links that prevent you from proving your case. Once you have done that, you will have proven your case.
If you read my posts I set out to show that islam is a God set goal for mankind to accomplish and maintain. You will see that I have clearly set out my arguments to prove my point contextually on the basis of the quran, the hadith and fiqh. I did not reject quran or hadith or fiqh but showed the rules in which explained the role of each.
If islam cannot be proven true through its main source the quran and related realities of real world then it was not worth defending. Moreover if it was a nonsense then no matter how hard I tried I could not defend it because indefensible claims cannot be defended no matter what.
Our mullas have put us on a different track in the name of islam which led ummah in to confusion and we are a laughing stock for the world thanks to their nonsense. All because they put us on the track of blind faith. Is it not stupid that on one hand they claim to believe in islam as a matter of their blind faith yet they argue for its truth and argue against other people who claim to believe other things as a matter of their blind faith? This very clearly shows their stupidity at a highest level. This contradiction they do not see.
The quran wants people to ponder over its verses and accept them not on basis of blind faith, why not? Because you lose your basis for arguments for your claims if you do that. Blind faith cannot be up for argument because arguments is all about proof and proving and rejection of concept of blind faith.
I see that you have far too much information on your finger tips but if you are unable to put it across in a coherent way whereby it all comes together nicely it is all useless.
So my advice will be please be kind to yourself and explain each aspect that you think is islam and then bring them all together in a nice way ensuring you do not contradict yourself anywhere along the way. If you succeed then you have proven your case no matter what I or anyone here or anywhere else says.
My posts make it obvious how many attempts I must have made to get things right. The more I make my effort this way the less others can argue against my claims and more and more I get closer to proving my point or case.
The other thing people here must understand is, we are all humans and are still learning from each other, so we are not aqle qul. Therefore we must accept that we could be wrong but till we are proven wrong by ourselves or others there is no harm in holding on to any ideas that we think are right for us, provided we are honest to ourselves. After all we do all we do for our own good till we change our focus after knowing better and become good for each other.
regards and all the best.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
That is not the way I see it at all.
Miracles are true - the argument of why we have seen no miracles for 1400 hundred years is as true as why we have seen no prophet for 1400 years. Yet, through our blindness we have a miracle before us ... The Holy Qur'an. Calling the miracles of Allah (SWT) make belief is heresy.
Existence itself is very amazing - yet very predictable - The One Who made the universe in my opinion can easily make miracles happen
Then we have our actions - again we can anticipate to some degree what will happen from our actions - but to a lesser degree than what naturally happens.
Then we have du'a - just like mentioned before - through sincere du'a things are fulfilled - this is even less predictable - so when these are fulfilled it increases our faith.
Then the biggest of the things that happen are indeed miracles ... which cannot be predicted at all ... and will defy our reason.
Does the existence of the Holy Qur'an not defy your reason? Is it not just as fantastic to say that Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) received Word of God from Angel Gabriel ??? If you do not believe in miracle then how can you value the existence of the Qur'an?
I have seen no instance where a person who had never been to school - had become such a master - with such a Word that has never been reproduced or topped by another team of experts let alone another human being.
Rather you admit to being a new movement diluting our beliefs - which have come to us through rigorous cross-references ... There is no basis to believe you - rather you have no belief - you are placing everything in what is tangible and rational. You will never reach the spiritual levels that are needed in a faith/religion.
Regarding what the Qur'an wants from us - yes it wants us to ponder, research and act ... but you see you only need to look in to history and determine that the most effective Muslims were those who had those "make beliefs" you so bluntly state ... A person who is so trained to put all his effort into rationale and tangibility - will never be able to picture the heavens and never be able to desire paradise ... He will never be able to think Allah (SWT) and angels are around him ... Most important is consistency !!! Please remember that ...
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Yes ... you are right ... If ALL humans must pass A ... then it follows X if human should also pass A ... but 1) Doesn't have a time limit ... it merely states ALL humans must pass A ... WHEN?
It is important ...
If X =5 years old and is alive then obviously X has not passed A ... is that a contradiction? No ... It is an insufficient scenario to bind into a contradiction. You need more info !!!
Let me help you:
1) All humans must pass A by Judgement Day 2) X is human and has no passed A and Judgement Day has not come yet ...
No contradiction. Here A is the time of their own death.
Psyah,
kindly don't speculate. My example is a theoretical one and it does explain what I wanted to. I didn't imply anything in my post but you thought perhaps I am talking about any particular verse or death of Jesus(as).
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Psyah,
kindly don't speculate. My example is a theoretical one and it does explain what I wanted to. I didn't imply anything in my post but you thought perhaps I am talking about any particular verse or death of Jesus(as).
Ah thanks for the clarification ... As long as we can ASSUME that your formula is bound in time then yes we have a contradiction but since it is not related to the account of Isa (AS) it is wholly irrelevant as well.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
That is not the way I see it at all.
Miracles are true - the argument of why we have seen no miracles for 1400 hundred years is as true as why we have seen no prophet for 1400 years. Yet, through our blindness we have a miracle before us ... The Holy Qur'an. Calling the miracles of Allah (SWT) make belief is heresy.
Existence itself is very amazing - yet very predictable - The One Who made the universe in my opinion can easily make miracles happen Then we have our actions - again we can anticipate to some degree what will happen from our actions - but to a lesser degree than what naturally happens. Then we have du'a - just like mentioned before - through sincere du'a things are fulfilled - this is even less predictable - so when these are fulfilled it increases our faith. Then the biggest of the things that happen are indeed miracles ... which cannot be predicted at all ... and will defy our reason.
Does the existence of the Holy Qur'an not defy your reason? Is it not just as fantastic to say that Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) received Word of God from Angel Gabriel ??? If you do not believe in miracle then how can you value the existence of the Qur'an?
I have seen no instance where a person who had never been to school - had become such a master - with such a Word that has never been reproduced or topped by another team of experts let alone another human being.
Rather you admit to being a new movement diluting our beliefs - which have come to us through rigorous cross-references ... There is no basis to believe you - rather you have no belief - you are placing everything in what is tangible and rational. You will never reach the spiritual levels that are needed in a faith/religion.
Regarding what the Qur'an wants from us - yes it wants us to ponder, research and act ... but you see you only need to look in to history and determine that the most effective Muslims were those who had those "make beliefs" you so bluntly state ... A person who is so trained to put all his effort into rationale and tangibility - will never be able to picture the heavens and never be able to desire paradise ... He will never be able to think Allah (SWT) and angels are around him ... Most important is consistency !!! Please remember that ...
Dear psyah, I accept that what I am saying is heresy but it is only heresy with respect to views of religious establishment under mullaiyat but not against the teachings of the quran and the quran based ahadith or fiqh as I explained it in its full context in the other thread.
Moreover do you think that any nation can develop unless at least some of its individuals make efforts to surpass others in knowledge? And what happens at that stage is that top folks cannot be understood by folks who made no effort in that direction and so they are bound to think that more knowledgeable people are wrong because they are talking about things that makes no sense to others who have not enabled themselves to understand them. Can you see how this can cause controversy where there should be none? It is like you set a ceiling for your thoughts and call everything else unacceptable and yet you talk about pondering over things? Thought are free running horses and can only be controlled by rules of wisdom not baseless beliefs. Let say you set a ceiling that no human beings can lift more than 10kg weight. And then you make laws that if anyone goes beyond that he will be made to face terrible consequences. How are those people supposed to function within this set limit who are bound to break this limit because they are capable of carrying 20kg?
Likewise falsely set ceilings cannot work for the betterment of humanity that is why they are wrong. It is because one day one is going to find out one has been lied to and his reaction may not be easy to handle. This is why all falsely indoctrinated thinking people break such glass ceilings and end up condemned by religious chiefs who want to keep things under lock and key if you like. Such nations therefore fail to make progress and lack prosperity. So long as west was under church things were not good but once it broke away it was all of sudden rejection of religions and scriptures.
So our mullas should learn from that and avoid messing up the quran and muslims because things are coming to a stage whereby more and more people are fed up with religious dogmas and their promoters. Sectarianism is becoming a hateful thing and people if they want unity must give up their false beliefs because you either live by baseless beliefs which are different from person to person, sect to sect and religion to religion that keep people divided or you follow rules for living by reality and find ways of unity otherwise people cannot come together nor can be brought together to cooperate for their betterment. This is why make beliefs are a serious problem and that it can no longer be ignored.
Muslims are facing problems amongst themselves as well as from outside world like never before so we are forced to think on our feet which way we should go. If we take too long to decide it may well be too late.
The problem is that not we all who claim to follow the quran were supposed to be one people but we were also supposed to educate others to come join us so that unity becomes accepted world wide in order to live peacefully and prosperously. The very warfare between ourselves is the very reason we are unable to put forth the set criterion for peace before nonmuslims. The formula for peace has to be the very same for all of us to be united otherwise the weaker side is always going to lose and suffer terrible pain the while it exists.
So we have no choice but to start thinking outside the box that mullas have created for this ummah. Any version of islam is not worth it that fails to unite people who claim to be muslims and thereafter the nonmuslims. Any such version is make beleif and true heresy because it is moving humanity away from the quran in the name of the quran and islam.
The very reason for which kufar is unacceptable so is unacceptable sectarianism among muslims. All because it is divisive therefore dangerous. So you can see why I do not accept such idea because to me islam means peace not war. Islam that has not brought peace to muslims themselves cannot bring peace to nonmuslims either therefore it is false and therefore people involved in such kind of islam must give it up and go for islam that makes sense so that it brings peace to all. Delay in this transition is futile because it prolongs human suffering all around the world. imagine more than a billion and half people giving dawa to rest of their brethren in way that they cannot refuse. The ratio is 1:4 or 5. The prophet was almost all alone when he started out on his mission. How did he manage to convince so many people? Not through sword but word of mouth. He had nothing to offer them other than hope for a better life in here and hereafter. Time to think, why such a great number of us have failed ourselves and others so badly? I think due to our make beliefs rather than following the given program in the quran.
regards and all the best.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Dear psyah, I accept that what I am saying is heresy but it is only heresy with respect to views of religious establishment under mullaiyat but not against the teachings of the quran and the quran based ahadith or fiqh as I explained it in its full context in the other thread.
Moreover do you think that any nation can develop unless at least some of its individuals make efforts to surpass others in knowledge? And what happens at that stage is that top folks cannot be understood by folks who made no effort in that direction and so they are bound to think that more knowledgeable people are wrong because they are talking about things that makes no sense to others who have not enabled themselves to understand them. Can you see how this can cause controversy where there should be none? It is like you set a ceiling for your thoughts and call everything else unacceptable and yet you talk about pondering over things? Thought are free running horses and can only be controlled by rules of wisdom not baseless beliefs. Let say you set a ceiling that no human beings can lift more than 10kg weight. And then you make laws that if anyone goes beyond that he will be made to face terrible consequences. How are those people supposed to function within this set limit who are bound to break this limit because they are capable of carrying 20kg?
Likewise falsely set ceilings cannot work for the betterment of humanity that is why they are wrong. It is because one day one is going to find out one has been lied to and his reaction may not be easy to handle. This is why all falsely indoctrinated thinking people break such glass ceilings and end up condemned by religious chiefs who want to keep things under lock and key if you like. Such nations therefore fail to make progress and lack prosperity. So long as west was under church things were not good but once it broke away it was all of sudden rejection of religions and scriptures.
So our mullas should learn from that and avoid messing up the quran and muslims because things are coming to a stage whereby more and more people are fed up with religious dogmas and their promoters. Sectarianism is becoming a hateful thing and people if they want unity must give up their false beliefs because you either live by baseless beliefs which are different from person to person, sect to sect and religion to religion that keep people divided or you follow rules for living by reality and find ways of unity otherwise people cannot come together nor can be brought together to cooperate for their betterment. This is why make beliefs are a serious problem and that it can no longer be ignored.
Muslims are facing problems amongst themselves as well as from outside world like never before so we are forced to think on our feet which way we should go. If we take too long to decide it may well be too late.
The problem is that not we all who claim to follow the quran were supposed to be one people but we were also supposed to educate others to come join us so that unity becomes accepted world wide in order to live peacefully and prosperously. The very warfare between ourselves is the very reason we are unable to put forth the set criterion for peace before nonmuslims. The formula for peace has to be the very same for all of us to be united otherwise the weaker side is always going to lose and suffer terrible pain the while it exists.
So we have no choice but to start thinking outside the box that mullas have created for this ummah. Any version of islam is not worth it that fails to unite people who claim to be muslims and thereafter the nonmuslims. Any such version is make beleif and true heresy because it is moving humanity away from the quran in the name of the quran and islam.
The very reason for which kufar is unacceptable so is unacceptable sectarianism among muslims. All because it is divisive therefore dangerous. So you can see why I do not accept such idea because to me islam means peace not war. Islam that has not brought peace to muslims themselves cannot bring peace to nonmuslims either therefore it is false and therefore people involved in such kind of islam must give it up and go for islam that makes sense so that it brings peace to all. Delay in this transition is futile because it prolongs human suffering all around the world. imagine more than a billion and half people giving dawa to rest of their brethren in way that they cannot refuse. The ratio is 1:4 or 5. The prophet was almost all alone when he started out on his mission. How did he manage to convince so many people? Not through sword but word of mouth. He had nothing to offer them other than hope for a better life in here and hereafter. **Time to think, why such a great number of us have failed ourselves and others so badly? I think due to our make beliefs rather than following the given program in the quran.
**regards and all the best.
Peace Mughal1
You have totally lost me ... in verbosity ... you mention parables and analogies without explaining to what they are applying to ...You need to clean up your style of discourse it is really boring. Please keep it simple.
I will take your last statement I have highlighted above ...
a) The reason why Muslims are failing is because of "love of dunya" - this what our hadith say ... and a bit of thought and pondering on this proves this is true.
b) When people within our fold claim our beliefs are "make believe" they are crippling it from within ... Added to the outsider sense of modernity and rejection of anything from the ghaib ... we are getting faithless people - who resign the religion.
c) The given programme of the Qur'an is itself for the purpose of a "ghaib" concept - i.e. paradise ... however, if you and your ilk continue in re-interpreting matters of the ghaib into metaphoric meanings we will eventually be leading down the road of rejecting Allah (SWT) and already there are people who do not believe in paradise nor hell ... but think them to be a condition in this life ... It is however true that this life can provide insight to hell and heaven, but that insight is not the SAME as hell and heaven. I can imagine people will start to resign Deity as being the driving force of our own consciousness - in order to make it more palatable for our modern mindsets ...
As I said be consistent - if there is anything that you believe to be supernatural - then you cannot use the argument of "make believe" to demonstrate your point - because then people will turn around and crush every "ghaib" belief that you have ...
Remember ... Zaalikal kitaabu la raiba fi huda lil-muttaqeen ... allazeena yu'minoona *bil ghaibi *...
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Do you understand the difference between a claim and claim with evidence ? What you do is claim. What I need is a claim with evidence.
You say Jesus a.s raised dead literally ‘by Allah’s will’.
You say Jesus cured blind literally ‘by Allah’s will’
You say Jesus literally healed the leper ‘by Allah’s will’
Do you have any evidence from any book in which Jesus raised dead literally and after being alive, the person have told about His experience as dead? Any evidence do you see in which jews accepted Jesus a.s just for the mere reason of raising dead ? I don’t think anyone would deny the truthfulness of such a person having Godly powers.
If they were all done by Jesus ‘literally’ then only mere difference between you and a Christian is that you say he did it by Allah’s will, whereas Christians say He a.s did it himself. Allah says only He will raise dead. But you insist Jesus have performed such a task literally, thereby elevating his status yet again as that of God. Nauzubillah.
What’s even more surprising is that in His second coming, He will not be performing any of such miracles. Why not ? Miracles limited to that time only ? 
Furthermore, I need proof of your claim that the way I understood is not the same way companions of holy prophet s.a.w understood. Just merely saying something like this is not convincing enough. Thanks.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Why are we even arguing with these people? - they don’t share our core beliefs as all …
Ahmadis, Pervaizis and other reductionists - reducing everything to what is “easy” to accept without requiring “faith” … They are different from us …
Wo to apne hazoor ko bhi nahein baqsh te …
How can we provide proof when our proof is re-interpreted by them … ??? 
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
^ Nothing more left.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
misterpopat has me cringing in agony after reading his every post
frame this:
[QUOTE]
Do you have any evidence from any book in which Jesus raised dead literally and after being alive, the person have told about His experience as dead? Any evidence do you see in which jews accepted Jesus a.s just for the mere reason of raising dead ? I don't think anyone would deny the truthfulness of such a person having Godly powers.
[/QUOTE]
all this has been directly answered in the Quran, and Allah SWT has told us the opposite of what you say.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
You have totally lost me ... in verbosity ... you mention parables and analogies without explaining to what they are applying to ...You need to clean up your style of discourse it is really boring. Please keep it simple.
I will take your last statement I have highlighted above ...
a) The reason why Muslims are failing is because of "love of dunya" - this what our hadith say ... and a bit of thought and pondering on this proves this is true.
b) When people within our fold claim our beliefs are "make believe" they are crippling it from within ... Added to the outsider sense of modernity and rejection of anything from the ghaib ... we are getting faithless people - who resign the religion.
c) The given programme of the Qur'an is itself for the purpose of a "ghaib" concept - i.e. paradise ... however, if you and your ilk continue in re-interpreting matters of the ghaib into metaphoric meanings we will eventually be leading down the road of rejecting Allah (SWT) and already there are people who do not believe in paradise nor hell ... but think them to be a condition in this life ... It is however true that this life can provide insight to hell and heaven, but that insight is not the SAME as hell and heaven. I can imagine people will start to resign Deity as being the driving force of our own consciousness - in order to make it more palatable for our modern mindsets ...
As I said be consistent - if there is anything that you believe to be supernatural - then you cannot use the argument of "make believe" to demonstrate your point - because then people will turn around and crush every "ghaib" belief that you have ...
Remember ... Zaalikal kitaabu la raiba fi huda lil-muttaqeen ... allazeena yu'minoona *bil ghaibi *...
Dear psyah, it seems to me that you are fearing that if we do not have make beliefs then people will give up idea of God. I think your fears are unfounded, why? Because existence of God is not a proofless concept as you assume. You see when you make a claim you put forth the relevant evidence. The quran is the testimony of God. The existence of the universe is evidence of existence of God. Together with right explanations within the quran itself we have the irrefutable proof. It is because mullas have misled us we have not thought of the quran and the universe as a proof. Had we developed our critical faculty by now we would have convinced the whole world. Instead we have been hiding behind baseless ideas that have turned us into a bad joke.
Just think for a moment, if God wanted to create the world and he wanted people to believe him but he could not make them believe in him because there was no direct evidence then what was the point of God creating the world?
God knew that to prove a point you only need a way to prove something and that is it and that is his revelation is the proof for his existence in light of universal realities.
The testimony of God is such that it contains such information that proves his claim to for people. The question is, how does it do it? It does it by way of information that could only and only come from God regarding real world realities.
1) we are even today disputing laws of nature in 21st century but the very first revelation of God explained to people that natural world works according to his set laws.
2) It was told, pay close attention to how universe works and likewise you too follow the laws advised so that likewise your lives become organised and you function properly as a good human society.
3) It was told, if you do not follow the given guidance your life will never be trouble free.
4) So for all that was told in divine program proved exactly as told and therefore this will remain true in the future as well.
5) The goal set by God for mankind has not been surpassed ie people have not found better purpose for their life than establishing peace and maintaining it.
6) They have not found better terms and conditions for peace than those set by the divine revelation.
7) Everything told in the divine revelation revolved around God but for the benefit of mankind.
I challenge all rulers, their priests and bankers to come up with anything better to refute the quranic goal, rights and responsibilities, rules and regulations etc etc. If they cannot and we all muslims and nonmuslims know none can therefore the quranic message is unique and so whatever it claims that we cannot directly witness is therefore true.
There I have proven the case for the quran. All nonmuslims can say is, you are wrong because the way you interpret the quran is not the way mullas have been interpreting it therefore you are only trying to make us fool. This is why for all muslims and nonmuslims it is of vital importance to learn some facts about the language of the quran as to how it came about and works so that it becomes clear that no matter what any mullas say the quran interprets itself. The truth is there is no mullaism in islam. But all this is going to take time before individuals become really aware of the divine message properly. So long as poeple are under influence of make belief promoters things will remain the same.
The question is, how mullas are going lose their influence of individuals? When things get really bad and mullas have no sense how to guide people out of serious troubles then people will turn against the mullahs and rulers and bankers and become free of all of them. The quran already told us islam will prevail 1400 years back. Islam will prevail=peace in the world will become established. Just as absolute kings are gone and absolute mullas are gone very soon absolute bankers will be gone because that is the way world is moving with time. So rule of Allah is coming as soon as current ruling system collapses after it saturates.
This is why people will bring islamic ruling system all by themselves because they will have nothing else to help them organise any better.
So you can see islam, quran, God have much better future than they ever had because they will be fully appreciated by the whole mankind for their goodness.
Is there any need for miracles any more after knowing islam the way I have explained? It is time for muslims to learn the message properly and take it those who want to argue against it and let them prove their case against the quran. You will see them backing down, why? Because they cannot refute the case the quran makes for islam=peace. This is the clear cut proof that islam is the truth from the almighty.
The quranic arguments could be put forth yet more forcefully but we need to work at it instead of dancing around like mad with beat of Allahu or making a tasbeeh ten yards long with 100000 mankas. Things do not happen all by themselves so if we want to spread the message of islam then people should prepare themselves for it. The prophet worked hard day and night that is how the mission succeeded. To bring about a revolutionary change in the mankind is not easy.
As for life in hereafter, we cannot know the nature of it, we will find out when we get there. But just because it is not self evident it does not mean it does not exist because it is told about by the quran and if the quran seems ok with everything else that we can verify then how can we doubt its statements which we have no way to refute? For example, the quran tells us it is word of God so it has to be because the information it told us long before humanity came to know it could not have come from any other source. Only if we could prove that the quran like program has come from humanity itself that we can doubt existence of God.
People who talk nonsense about the quran have no real idea what they are talking about because they do not know what the quran is talking about. All they do is here nonsense from other people who themselves have little sense of anything. I take all such people as stupid because if they were not they would not be living the way they are because the state in which we find our world testifies to their stupidity. If people were sensible then our world would have been in much better state than it is.
So you can see where I stand about islam and quran. This is why to me make beliefs do not appeal at all. It is not that I have anything against people but that their negligence of the divine message is only keeping the world from becoming a better place for all of us therefore we ought to encourage each other to take steps that better the situations. This is why open mindedness of all people is necessary so that they could see what is good for us as a human community and what is harmful and take steps to stop harm and bring goodness.
regards and all the best.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Dear psyah, it seems to me that you are fearing that if we do not have make beliefs then people will give up idea of God. I think your fears are unfounded, why? Because existence of God is not a proofless concept as you assume. You see when you make a claim you put forth the relevant evidence. The quran is the testimony of God. The existence of the universe is evidence of existence of God. Together with right explanations within the quran itself we have the irrefutable proof. It is because mullas have misled us we have not thought of the quran and the universe as a proof. Had we developed our critical faculty by now we would have convinced the whole world. Instead we have been hiding behind baseless ideas that have turned us into a bad joke.
Just think for a moment, if God wanted to create the world and he wanted people to believe him but he could not make them believe in him because there was no direct evidence then what was the point of God creating the world?
God knew that to prove a point you only need a way to prove something and that is it and that is his revelation is the proof for his existence in light of universal realities.
The testimony of God is such that it contains such information that proves his claim to for people. The question is, how does it do it? It does it by way of information that could only and only come from God regarding real world realities.
1) we are even today disputing laws of nature in 21st century but the very first revelation of God explained to people that natural world works according to his set laws.
2) It was told, pay close attention to how universe works and likewise you too follow the laws advised so that likewise your lives become organised and you function properly as a good human society.
3) It was told, if you do not follow the given guidance your life will never be trouble free.
4) So for all that was told in divine program proved exactly as told and therefore this will remain true in the future as well.
5) The goal set by God for mankind has not been surpassed ie people have not found better purpose for their life than establishing peace and maintaining it.
6) They have not found better terms and conditions for peace than those set by the divine revelation.
7) Everything told in the divine revelation revolved around God but for the benefit of mankind.
I challenge all rulers, their priests and bankers to come up with anything better to refute the quranic goal, rights and responsibilities, rules and regulations etc etc. If they cannot and we all muslims and nonmuslims know none can therefore the quranic message is unique and so whatever it claims that we cannot directly witness is therefore true.
There I have proven the case for the quran. All nonmuslims can say is, you are wrong because the way you interpret the quran is not the way mullas have been interpreting it therefore you are only trying to make us fool. This is why for all muslims and nonmuslims it is of vital importance to learn some facts about the language of the quran as to how it came about and works so that it becomes clear that no matter what any mullas say the quran interprets itself. The truth is there is no mullaism in islam. But all this is going to take time before individuals become really aware of the divine message properly. So long as poeple are under influence of make belief promoters things will remain the same.
The question is, how mullas are going lose their influence of individuals? When things get really bad and mullas have no sense how to guide people out of serious troubles then people will turn against the mullahs and rulers and bankers and become free of all of them. The quran already told us islam will prevail 1400 years back. Islam will prevail=peace in the world will become established. Just as absolute kings are gone and absolute mullas are gone very soon absolute bankers will be gone because that is the way world is moving with time. So rule of Allah is coming as soon as current ruling system collapses after it saturates.
This is why people will bring islamic ruling system all by themselves because they will have nothing else to help them organise any better.
So you can see islam, quran, God have much better future than they ever had because they will be fully appreciated by the whole mankind for their goodness.
Is there any need for miracles any more after knowing islam the way I have explained? It is time for muslims to learn the message properly and take it those who want to argue against it and let them prove their case against the quran. You will see them backing down, why? Because they cannot refute the case the quran makes for islam=peace. This is the clear cut proof that islam is the truth from the almighty.
The quranic arguments could be put forth yet more forcefully but we need to work at it instead of dancing around like mad with beat of Allahu or making a tasbeeh ten yards long with 100000 mankas. Things do not happen all by themselves so if we want to spread the message of islam then people should prepare themselves for it. The prophet worked hard day and night that is how the mission succeeded. To bring about a revolutionary change in the mankind is not easy.
As for life in hereafter, we cannot know the nature of it, we will find out when we get there. But just because it is not self evident it does not mean it does not exist because it is told about by the quran and if the quran seems ok with everything else that we can verify then how can we doubt its statements which we have no way to refute? For example, the quran tells us it is word of God so it has to be because the information it told us long before humanity came to know it could not have come from any other source. Only if we could prove that the quran like program has come from humanity itself that we can doubt existence of God.
People who talk nonsense about the quran have no real idea what they are talking about because they do not know what the quran is talking about. All they do is here nonsense from other people who themselves have little sense of anything. I take all such people as stupid because if they were not they would not be living the way they are because the state in which we find our world testifies to their stupidity. If people were sensible then our world would have been in much better state than it is.
So you can see where I stand about islam and quran. This is why to me make beliefs do not appeal at all. It is not that I have anything against people but that their negligence of the divine message is only keeping the world from becoming a better place for all of us therefore we ought to encourage each other to take steps that better the situations. This is why open mindedness of all people is necessary so that they could see what is good for us as a human community and what is harmful and take steps to stop harm and bring goodness.
regards and all the best.
You are being inconsistent !!!
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mughal1
I would like to ask you two questions for now:
1) What is your basis for understanding the term "ghaib" ???
2) How can you demonstrate that belief in the "ghaib" has caused the strife and hardships for Muslims that you mention?
4 lines and a link if you wish ... but please avoid cluttering.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Popat You are asking me if I have any evidence from book “in which Jesus raised dead literally and after being alive”?
My answer is Yes the book is the Quran itself! I am giving you some popular translations of the ayah 3:49
Muhammad Asad and [will make him] an apostle unto the children of Israel.” "I HAVE COME unto you with a message from your Sustainer. I shall create for you out of clay, as it were, the shape of [your] destiny, and then breathe into it, so that it might become [your] destiny by God’s leave; and I shall heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life by God’s leave; and I shall let you know what you may eat and what you should store up in your houses. Behold, in all this there is indeed a message for you, if you are [truly] believers. al-Imran 3:49
M. M. Pickthall And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers. al-Imran 3:49
Shakir And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah’s permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah’s permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. al-Imran 3:49
**Yusuf Ali **"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; al-Imran 3:49
Rashad Khalifa As a messenger to the Children of Israel: "I come to you with a sign from your Lord - I create for you from clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a live bird by GOD’s leave. I restore vision to the blind, heal the leprous, and I revive the dead by GOD’s leave. I can tell you what you eat, and what you store in your homes. This should be a proof for you, if you are believers. al-Imran 3:49
The language is so clear cut that it does not need any interpretation.
It is what it says. Those who have perversity in their hearts and other self serving agendas will seek other interpretations
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. **Al Imran: ayah 7**
That’s a true statement. Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) never claimed such status for himself.
No Muslim worth his salt will say that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) performed such task on his own.
You are not reading the Quran properly!!!
All the tasks done by Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)were by Allah’s leave.
Read the above quoted ayahs again. (For your benefit I have highlighted the “By Allah’s Leave”
Gotta go will answer later
Part 2
Quran states the Hz. Isa Ibn Maryam (as) raised the dead with Allah’s leave. This is what we believe, unfortunately for you the Quran is silent about the interview the ‘lucky fella’ gave after being pronounced alive after having tasted death. But I can be assure you this that his family must have been very happy to have him back! Quran doesn’t normally cover trivial matters.
Did the Makkans accept Prophet Muhammad (as) when he split the moon with Allah’s permission?
Sure some Jews must have accepted him and being haughty people majority would not have but in the Hereafter that will be against them.
Overwhelming of Muslims follow Quran as taught by Prophet Muhammad (saw) and followed by his blessed Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) - That’s the norm.
Mr MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi has rejected the ahadith and has interpreted the Quran in line with his so-called ‘Wahi’ - So the onus is on you my friend to show that you still follow what Prophet Muhammad (saw) had taught and was practiced by his blessed Companions (raa).
This you can only show from ahadith which unfortunately for you has been rejected by Mr MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi
This is simple and obvious - This time around he will not be coming as a Prophet but an Universal Islamic leader - That will not be the time miracles but action - To save Mankind from Fitna tul Dajjal and bring peace and harmony in the tormented world. - He will achieve all that within his lifetime.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Dear psyah, faith is inevitable where there is no knowledge possible about something but having knowledge and yet relying on faith is ignorance therefore silliness.
When an accident happens sensible people investigate it in order to know why it happened so that they could ensure that it does not happen again. Senseless people who have wrong notion of faith always rely on faith and end up having same problem over and over because they do not try to learn from their mistakes.
It is matter of faith that family size has increased so much that people think the world is really over populated. The fact is there is no sense in people how they should plan things so that they only have families they can cope with and the reason is destiny of man is linked to his own efforts. So the lesson is if you cannot cope with something then don’t get involved with it, not that have faith and carry on Allah will provide. No doubt Allah has provided whatever he had to provide including his guidance but it is people who have to work on his advised porgram. This is why Allah does not change state of a nation that fails to work for it.
Our nation has been ruined by mullas misinterpretations of the quran and their misrepresentation of islam. All because of their wrong notion of faith.
For example, if a person has headache others will tell him to go to some molvi sb and get some dam or taweez and you will be ok. This is blind faith of people that they think their molvi can do magic. The actual thing is that it is placebo effect which is not magic by molvi sb only but by local doctor as well and carried out by people of all faiths and none. Yet people who know nothing better take it as proof of truth of their religion. They make up stories and tell each other with great interest.
However the reality is that if any of them had a bad accident and lost a limb then none of them will tell the person go and see this or that man of faith or spiritual healer because all of the so called faithful people now know the problem is not going to be fixed magically by the holly man. One has to ask what happened to faith of these people all of a sudden? This is called reality check and when that happens all make beliefs disappear because they were false all along. All that happened was the incident exposed them through real situation that took place. Yet interesting thing is the same people will do the very same all over again when anyone has headache. This is the case with ignorant mullas and masses. So many people have been cheated by them yet they keep going back to be cheated again and again. Make belief has such a strong hold on the minds of irrational people. These magic workers therefore take advantage of those who are dying to be their victims.
Baba and romance. Part 3 of 4 - YouTube
Save Hinduism from Fake n Frauds - 7 - YouTube
Baba and romance. Part 2 of 4 - YouTube
Tv9 - Kaliya Baba demands loving hug - YouTube
Tv9 - The secrets of babas - Part 2 - YouTube
Tv9 - Kannada ministers under fake Baba spell - YouTube
prof lajpal
With empty pockets, man contests by-polls against Gilani’s son - YouTube
So one can see miracles based on blind faith around the world.
What could these so called spiritual leaders not do for these people if they really wanted to help them? This is the reason no universities were build nor hospital by donation money rather these institutions were re-enforced leading to worse and worse state of people’s existence.
In the end all you come up with is old mulla thing this qadyani and that parwezi. Blind faith zindabad. All I can say is if people here who are computer literate believe in all nonsense then who can blame those villagers so whatever is happening to them may be that is exactly what they deserve. Because Allah does not change condition of people but through his revealed program which if these people do not want to follow then they are free to face the consequences as have been made very clear in the quran. How many nations have perished due to their such mindsets, attitudes and practices.
It is up to people to educate themselves out of nonsense and do something better with their lives for themselves and others.
Shirk Prostrate to Peer Sufi. Great Illiterate People in Islam !..Watch Video and Share - YouTube
Shirk , Insano ko Sajda Shirk , Stop it worst deed (Allah ho akbar As tagfiruallah ) - YouTube
Peero ko Sajda Allah Se Daro Zalimo - YouTube
Sajdah to Mullah Tahir-ul-Qadri! Mullah Shirk
Please do think about reality how people take make beliefs and practice them. This is why helping people to be reasonable is very important. For so long pushing make beleifs what have people really achieved for themselves or others? But looking at whta people can achieve without blind faith is obvious in all those nations that are no longer bound by blind faith and witch hunt. We have lost both deen and duniya by the look of it.
Tokay wali sarkar Mufti Muhammad Yousaf Rizvi from Lahore P04 - YouTube
TOKA1.MPG - YouTube
regards and all the best.