Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Well so whats the problem with answers given there? Is there any particular point of answer which you are unhappy with, then mention and I am happy to explain that?

Quote for you from the same thread:

*"If a farmer prays to ALLAH please let it rain.and ALLAH accepts his prayer and it begins to rain.so to fullfill the wish of a farmer ALLAH didn't have to break any laws of nature but just move laws of nature in favour of that farmer"
*
This is precisely what Sayyedna Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Aleyesalam is explaining.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Firstly ... I thank bro Ibn Sadique for his invaluable contribution.

Although you (Ahmadis) deny the miracles we acknowledge - you in fact are quite accepting of the so-called miracles of MGAQ ...

but even then you call his visions totally personal to him as miracles ...

Now a clarification is in order ... I never said miracles are a natural phenomena - I said that the Ahmadis claim that what we call 'miracles' are natural phenomena ...

Now when I say it breaks the laws of science - I mean that to include a very specific thing ... and I have to explain with the following examples:

Man puts his hand in real fire for 5 minutes and does not get burned - Is that a miracle?

The answer to that is: If it is "reproducible" ... then it is not a miracle but it is science ...

Ok ... So there is this substance called a ceramic gel ... you rub it on your hand and sure enough you can remain with your hand in the fire for 5 minutes without burning ...

Why is this not the same? It is not the same because the experiment is not the SAME ... here an "agent" is being used to enable the said result.

The miracle is born of the fact that the observed phenomenon takes place with "NO AGENT" except the "WORD OF GOD" ...

....

Sayyiduna Ibrahim (AS) did not use an AGENT to protect himself from burning for all those days ...

....

Maryam (AS) had given birth to Isa (AS) without "agency" of a male - Is this a miracle?

Well today it is possible to place a female cell nucleus in to an ovum, and then zap it to start splitting ... this will create another female - a clone of the mother - without agency of a father ...

But we cannot imply that technology that was not available in those days was used ... that would be wrong ... the miracle of Isa (AS)'s birth in addition to having no fatherly agency is that there was no agency of doctor, genetic scientist or otherwise ... It was simply the "WORD OF GOD" ... that made it happen.

.........

A man travels from Makkah to Medina and back in one night - Is that a miracle?

Well this is quite possible for many people to achieve by aeroplane ...

Did RasoolAllah (SAW) have an aeroplane circa 1430 years ago? No ...

This was a miracle ... that could not have happened in any way whatsoever with the technology that was available in his (SAW)'s time ... It does not matter that we can reproduce it - we can only reproduce it with "agency" - i.e. aeroplane ... which follows scientific rules ...

Now ... if you want to argue the matter of miracle - please feel free to do so ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Dear brethren, after writing and reading this much has anyone been able to decide anything? Has anyone been able to convince anyone? Please ask yourselves why not? Is it because people have lost sense of real world realities due to their following of invented concepts or make beliefs that have no basis in reality?

The quran was revealed to take mankind out of darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge. So anything that leaves us confused cannot be based in the quran because the quran is book of clarities.

This issue about finality of prophet-hood rests on two make beliefs a) that arabic root words have multiple concrete meanings therefore root KHAA, TAA and MEEM also has various meanings. This sense of arabic root meanings is not based on reality therefore it is not correct. There is no doubt that arabic roots have various meanings but real root meaning of root is only and only one the rest are derived meanings which revolve around the concrete meaning which is the real root meaning.

b) The concept of miracles. This concept too is make belief, why? a) Because this term is beyond any sensible definition that could be shown fit for the claimed purpose. b)The natural world works naturally not supernaturally and to prove otherwise is impossible and c) All the quranic words have multiple meanings therefore the very words that could be taken for a supernatural event could be explained otherwise as well so that in itself tells us miracles cannot be proven as facts right from the start. So why not take natural explanation of these words and events instead of giving them make belief concepts?

Once people understand these simple facts the problem is no longer there. It therefore makes sense to accept things on that basis otherwise the quranic text loses its context and becomes irrelevant for reaching any sensible conclusion.

It will be more useful for my blessed brethren here to use their time in figuring out concrete meanings of roots from the given sets of meanings using the quranic context and to develop logical fact based arguments about concepts of miracles.

The supernatural intervention is obvious in two forms to us a)creation of universe and b)revelation of divine will. We have no other way of knowing how universe came about and how the divine books got here.

People who will not follow this advice will not be able to arrive at any solid conclusion and will keep on arguing and fighting over these issues all their lives and die confused.

May Allah bless us all with sense of brotherhood and unity but on the basis that is solid and cannot be argued against because word of Allah is decisive in deciding disputes. That was the purpose of revelations by God. Only ignorant people keep on disputing instead of looking for ways that help settle the disputes.

May be the following thread is of help.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/571290-civilisation-how-did-it-all-happen-by-david-neiman.html?#post9062004

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Lets just get your examples in part then. I assume you are trying to to say Hdhrat Ibrahim Alehesalam burnt?.... call it my ignorance but please remind me the facts? It will make easier to reply in context.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

what miracles do you accept?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

mrpopat, dtox, kchughtai

the lahoris say they are not confined by their following of mgaq to believe in the miracle birth of Isa AS. they say theyve been given freedom on this matter. whats the qadiani view?

they say:

As the question of the birth of Jesus is not decided conclusively in the Holy Quran, but ambiguously, when people read this scripture some draw one conclusion and some take the opposite view. Hazrat Mirza undoubtedly held the belief personally that Jesus was born without the agency of a father, but he gave his followers freedom in interpreting the Quran. This is why they had the best understanding of the Holy Book. As a result of this freedom, some even differed with Hazrat Mirza himself on some points. In his life-time, some of his followers held the belief that Jesus had a father (for instance, his right-hand man and successor Hazrat Maulana Nur-ud-Din, for whose views see the section titled 'Views of followers of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad'). Hazrat Mirza always showed tolerance and broadmindedness, as shown by the following recorded incident:
"Once Hazrat Mirza asked Shaikh Qamar-ud-Din of Jhelum to show him the verses of the Quran from which the Shaikh had concluded that Jesus had a father. At first, the Shaikh sahib, out of respect for Hazrat Mirza, remained silent. But upon Hazrat Mirza repeating the question, he mentioned the arguments from the Quran that he knew. Hearing the arguments, Hazrat Mirza said: Your arguments are certainly strong, but until God gives me to understand this point, I will follow the views of the majority of Muslims'...Hazrat Mirza said to Hakim Fazal Din [who had complained about Shaikh sahib's belief]:How can you declare as heretic someone who bases his arguments on the Quran?'"
(Mujaddid Azam, Life of Hazrat Mirza, vol. ii, p. 1342)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace d-tox..ed

Your ignorance? No it can’t be your ignorance … I am not trying to say anything … I have said what I said … Can you see anywhere … where I said Sayyiduna Ibrahim (AS) “burnt” … as you put it … Better still where did I imply that?

I think your detox programme needs a few more sessions … :hoonh:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

You claim to have simplicity … but you don’t in fact have that … Your posts are long and if we do discuss things in any detail you will fall upon the same problems that the Ahmadis fall upon … We can take this conversation in that direction too … If you wish … It is still relevant to this thread …

Regarding miracles your statements are heresy according to the Muslims …

We can accept this difference or we can move in another debate - Personally I would like to avoid the latter …

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Dear brother psyah, please go ahead and explain your belief in miracles if you must. If you make a convincing case then I will have to agree with you otherwise you will have to accept what I have stated. The problem I see with your way of looking at things is that you do not tow any solid line of logic based upon evidence. You rely on make beliefs therefore fail to prove your point.

In a way if I may say so, you seem to be confused as regard mechanism of proof and proving itself so you run all over the place with ideas alone. The problem seems to be that you are trying your best to prove something but then you deny the mechanism of proof and proving as well. In a way you destroy the boat and want to use it to cross the river as well at the same time. In my view you seem to fail to realise this contradiction in your approach to things. If somehow you could over come this problem, you will do fine.

It is true as I have explained already in the other thread that we must work with all elements as variables but somehow we must find a way to give them a solid foundation in order to have a stable building. This is how I arrived at the conclusion that if ideas and facts put together make sense then we have proven our case otherwise not.

regards and all the best.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

I think he is talking about this? Care to explain?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Please look for alternative explanations of story of prophet ibraheem. He was not thrown in real fire nor saved from that. This is fire that is burning us all even today ie fire of hatred that results from mistreating each other. Allah saved prophet ibraheem through his revealed program which is al about repairing the rifts between people to bind them in brotherhood thus ending the hatred.

The quran tells us same about prophet muhammad's companions ie how they were at the brink of destruction through hatred based warfare and Allah saved them through quran, the program for brotherhood.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

As I said above those miracles that doesn't cause contradiction within Quran.
1) All humans must pass A.
2) X is a human but he bypassed A.
yeah but that was a miracle.

Accepting 2 as a miracle/exception cause contradiction so you need to dig deep to avoid contradictions since the holy Quran is the word of Allah and is free of contradictions

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

It's funny how the end answer of all you people is that Jesus a.s is sustained by Allah without food. He is not on Earth and is still alive. He a.s is perhaps maintained by some other means other than food. Calling it all a miracle but you care not even one bit how many verses of Qur'an do you go against by having such belief.

Miracles which happened with prophets are mentioned in Qur'an. We accept them. But what's not mentioned in Qur'an and infact deny the possibility of it, and yet we insist on calling it a miracle is just to keep yourself happy. If you accept Quran to be the word of Allah, then you must know there is no contradiction in Quran. You create contradiction on purpose to keep Isa a.s as an exception.

What will you do with the verse which according you states that He a.s went to heavens bodily alive, when Jesus a.s comes back down ? When He a.s reads it, will he take out that verse from Quran? is quran such a book which will expire ?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

d-tox..ed The example given above is a normal happening and occurs quite often. That’s Allah Almighty’s response to dua.

Miracle is something that has impact of astonishment, awe and amazement power and impossibility. Miracles are not repeated and are one-offs.

As an ardent Ahmadi try explaining the following:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: *In a vision, I saw God in a visionary expression and I wrote many predictions; then I placed many papers before God, for his signature, so that he may confirm my demands. I saw that God wrote something and without hesitation put His signature in red ink.

At the time of signing he jerked the pen as they do when ink on the nib is excess and they throw it down. I was very sensitive at that time that God was so kind to me that whatever I demanded He put His signature on that without any hesitation. Then I awoke. At the time, (one of my disciples) Mian Abdullah Sinnori was with me in the room rubbing my feet.

In his presence some drops of red ink fell on my clothes and on those of Abdullah. It is strange to note that the time of pen's jerking and falling of red drops was the same without a slight difference. When the revelation ended, I actually discovered that our clothes were smeared red although we had no dye or anything else of a red colour with us. Abdullah still possesses those smeared clothes. **(Haqiqatul Wahi p 255, Taryaqual-Qulub, p 62)*

Can you believe it? Allah (swt) signing papers?? Drops of red ink in MGAQ’s dream really materialise!!!!!!

So Allah (swt) must be literally signing the real papers with real red ink and using a real pen!

Is that how Ibn Chiragh Bibi sees Allah Almighty? Looks like he is seeing Allah Almighty as he sees his Colonial Masters.

Explain how something seen in vision materializes physically in this world! Or is it 'holy ink'?

Below shows what the best Popat could do – quite pathetic

Kashf is a spiritual experience something abstract or intangible.

Now please use your intelligence and explain to us how something physical/ tangible can appear from something intangible. How did the red ink materialise from nothing?

I hope you can do better than Popat

Any Ahmadi is welcome to list 10 most amazing miracles of MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

and psyah, the dialogue to which i made some changing, I could have made it longer for you but I stopped on purpose. You know very well Christians believe Jesus a.s to have come in human form and is God, or son of God. Question is not about if God eats or not.. question is who does not need food to remain alive. Christian reply that i wrote is what you needed to think about. To a Christian, God (Jesus) is alive and to you He is alive as well. Even if He a.s ate, how does it even make a difference to a Christian belief that he a.s is God, since it doesnt matter to them if God had eaten or not.. the fact that he is alive, and is accepted by you as alive makes him God. Whether he ate or not is not relevant to them. He needed food since they say God came in form of a human.

Jesus a.s passed away like other prophets passed away. He a.s and his mother used to eat like other prophets used to eat. They all stopped eating and died. Jesus a.s and his mother doesnt eat anymore and died like other prophets have.

To say : Jesus a.s was a prophet like others. Prophets before Him have passed away. But he has not yet passed away. He ate like other prophets ate.. but they all died but Isa a.s has not.

I do not understand how that makes sense to you. Isa a.s is "NO MORE" than a messenger. Prophets before him have passed away. To say he has not passed away is like saying 'so he was someone more than a messenger'. Therefore, elevating His status, and knowingly agreeing to the argument Christian would put in front of you.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace** Popat ** So you agree all the miracles listed below?

Miracle is something that has impact of astonishment, awe and amazement power and impossibility. Miracles are not repeated and are one-offs.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Ibn Sadique,

Heres the thing. You dont have to write paragraphs after paragraphs trying to get an answer of something you will not believe in even if the answer is given to you. My humble request would be to go to alislam.org and do some research yourself.

Now that being said, you must have an issue with the claim that he made. Claim that He a.s is the promised Messiah and the Imam Mahdi. Before you jump on to anything else, you primary response should be : 'Wait.. he cannot be Messiah. Messiah is not dead. Jesus a.s will be literally coming back from heavens alive. Whereas, Hz Ahmad(as) was born.' This is what your response should be as a Muslim. This is your belief. This is what you need to discuss first. It should not matter to you one bit what He claimed. Your belief is that Jesus a.s is alive and only he will be coming back. Therefore, that is the question that needs to be addressed first.

I hope now you will avoid talking about Hz Ahmad(as) as no matter what answer is given to you, you will not believe. Why dont we tackle the belief of Jesus a.s's ascension first and everything will make sense to you afterwards?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I believe in all miracles mentioned in Quran. However, some miracles need interpretation. Miracles you associated with Jesus a.s, are in metaphoric sense. He a.s cured blind. People were blind in faith. He helped them see the truth. He a.s raised the dead in a way that people were physically alive but spiritually dead. He a.s helped them become alive with the truth and vice versa.

When did I say miracles are not approved by Quran?

Since you brought miracles from Quran. How about you do me a favor and bring a miracle from Quran approving the ascension of any of human being up to heavens alive? What a poor argument from your side, that if such and such has happened.. then so can this. What is the basis on which you want to talk about miracles ?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Explain the highlighted part from the Quran - the language is very clear it doesn't need any interpretation.

Miracles were performed by Allah Almighty's leave and Will! By interpretation you are going to give your 'twist' to them - and that's not how the Companions (raa) of the Blessed Prophet (saw) understood them!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Now say that in English ... please