Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@kchughtai

psyah sahib,

let me modify the dialogue you presented:

Muslim: No he isn't Christian: Ok, does God die? Muslim: No Christian: Ok, Man die? Muslim: Yes Christian: Well ...is Jesus alive? Muslim: Yes but you also believe that Jesus died on cross. God doesn't die. Christian: Yes he suffered the pain and died on cross for us but was resurrected after 3 days. Man once die don't come back like that. Muslims: We don't believe he died at all. Christian: ok fine. at least we agree that he is alive and only living prophet is him and he will come back again. you believe this too Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don't believe he died Muslim: No .... Look does God eat? Christian: No Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like the other prophets, he can't be God. Christian: Na Na, When he was on this earth, he was in human form and experienced all that humans do. Your Quran says that Messengers were given mortal bodies that needed food but as you say he is alive up in the heavens and Quran also says that Jesus used to eat food. that is past. It means he doesn't need food and is still alive so he certainly is more than a mere human and a messenger. Muslim:??? but he could be kept survived by 'other means' Christian: **Kindly don't give me this nonsense that you present to Ahmadis. If he is in no need of food that human body needs then he is either dead or not human and you say he is alive. **Only he gave life and resurrected dead ones. He is the only one whom God took to Himself to his throne and have him seated on His right hand. He will come again and lead to the ultimate victory....

I can prolong this dialogue but let us cut this here.

Much better than Popat's attempt ... but the part in bold is not a Christian's statement ... that is an Ahmadis statement ...
Christians don't have a problem in believing miraculous things ... unlike the Ahmadis.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@kchughtai

The point is that Quran provided evidence of Jesus like earlier prophets and messengers

Jesus(as) can't be God since he needed to eat like rest of the prophets. (example of earlier prophets. No uniqueness. Both he and his mother used to eat). **Here death was not mentioned as the audience are those who accept that he died (on cross).

**He can't be God since his fatherless birth that chrsitians present to prove that he nauzbillah the only son of God was like that of Adam. (No Uniqueness)

It is also aimed at the audience who believe he was never killed on the cross ... i.e. The Muslims and other Semitic groups. And more importantly it cannot contradict itself by confirming by silence on the matter of death on the cross - this verse when viewed with the verse that states Jesus (AS) did not die on the cross rules out the possibility that you are suggesting.

Curious are you amongst those who believe Jesus (AS) died on the cross?

[shardmanny]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

thats incorrect projection of our beliefs from mrpopat and kchughtai

its interesting that neither of you chose to include the miraculous birth (from where son of god comes from?) in your projections

acknowledgement of the miracles is very important, theres no faith without their acknowledgement. that would be sitting on the fence between christianity and islam

when the muslims acknowledge the miracles without believing Isa AS to be a god that is to our credit, the whole life of Isa AS is blessed. his birth is blessed, his life and his grave in Medina with his Imam SAW

btw one the most important references regarding Isa AS and other Prophets AS before him is that both christians and muslims acknowledge them other Prophets AS, their miracles, their messages etc so yet this is another blow to the christian belief of one of the anbiya being god himself

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Psyah,

strange, after all the long exchanges, is this what you have learnt about me that I might believe in death of Jesus(as) on cross. seems like nothing is going thru.

[QUOTE]

It is also aimed at the audience who believe he was never killed on the cross ... i.e. The Muslims and other Semitic groups.

[/QUOTE]

Did you read Quran at all? read a few verses 5:72-76, these are about trinity and about worshiping him. Who does that? muslims? Jews?. A kid can tell that these verses are aimed at trinitarians. if others can benefit from these, fine. why not

[QUOTE]

And more importantly it cannot contradict itself by confirming by silence on the matter of death on the cross

[/QUOTE]

oh bhai, Quran is not contradicting itself nor condoning any ideas thru silence. It is mentioning here the points that both muslims and christians agree on that Jesus(as) used to eat food. Very much like Christians of Najran presented fatherless birth as a sign of his divinity. Why? because both parties believed in that. This idea was refuted by providing example of Adam(as).
The beauty of Quran is that it not only mentioned eating as a sign of him being like rest of messengers i.e., a human but also killed the idea of him being alive by
1) stating eating as a past activity (please note that not a particular event is highlighted nor it is mentioned like 'you have witnessed him eating'. so there is no room for your ideas)
2) mentioning him with his mother. 'Both used to eat'. Why Mary(as) don't eat any more. it is because she is dead. same is the case with Jesus(as)

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I simply don't understand Why you guys keep saying things that suggest that we don't believe in miracles. That concept is sheer non-sense. We do believe in miracles but we cannot go against Quran and accept your ideas in the name of exceptions and miracles.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@kchughtai

Psyah,

strange, after all the long exchanges, is this what you have learnt about me that I might believe in death of Jesus(as) on cross. seems like nothing is going thru.

Did you read Quran at all? read a few verses 5:72-76, these are about trinity and about worshiping him. Who does that? muslims? Jews?. A kid can tell that these verses are aimed at trinitarians. if others can benefit from these, fine. why not

oh bhai, Quran is not contradicting itself nor condoning any ideas thru silence. It is mentioning here the points that both muslims and christians agree on that Jesus(as) used to eat food. Very much like Christians of Najran presented fatherless birth as a sign of his divinity. Why? because both parties believed in that. This idea was refuted by providing example of Adam(as). The beauty of Quran is that it not only mentioned eating as a sign of him being like rest of messengers i.e., a human but also killed the idea of him being alive by 1) stating eating as a past activity (please note that not a particular event is highlighted nor it is mentioned like 'you have witnessed him eating'. so there is no room for your ideas) 2) mentioning him with his mother. 'Both used to eat'. Why Mary(as) don't eat any more. it is because she is dead. same is the case with Jesus(as)

This response was unnecessary ... I know you don't believe Jesus (AS) died on the cross ... However, you failed to realise your own folly when you presented that as the argument from the Qur'an that the reason why "death" of Isa (AS) was not spoken about in that verse is because they (Christians) already believed he (AS) died on the cross ... That is a poor argument, because the Qur'an cannot be complacent in the Christians believing in a falsehood ... Rather the reason why the death of Isa (AS) was not spoken about in that verse is because it has not happened yet.

To believe that Isa (AS) will die is not deification to any extent of the imagination - you must be fair to us ... if you demand fairness from us.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@kchughtai

I simply don't understand Why you guys keep saying things that suggest that we don't believe in miracles. That concept is sheer non-sense. We do believe in miracles but we cannot go against Quran and accept your ideas in the name of exceptions and miracles.

Others from your group - namely Chacha_Ghalib and more importantly Mirza Tahir are more truthful than you and admit that you believe that miracles are only natural phenomena that we still can't scientifically explain ... but will be able to explain as science progresses ... The claim of Muslims is that a miracle breaks the laws of science ...

[shardmanny]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[QUOTE]
I simply don't understand Why you guys keep saying things that suggest that we don't believe in miracles. That concept is sheer non-sense. We do believe in miracles but we cannot go against Quran and accept your ideas in the name of exceptions and miracles.

[/QUOTE]

is why i asked you earlier to comment on 'maidatan mina alssamai'

[d-tox.ed]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Yaar ye tou hadd ho gai na...Psyah bhai kabb pyaas bhujje gi aapki....anyways I ll try to jump in as well:

You said muslims believe the miracle breaks the laws of science? What is sciene? Do you have any idea what science is? In nutshell it explains how beautiful Allah's creation is and Allah reveals the miracles which he performs to us through scientific discoveries. Somethings which were not possible 50 years ago are now possible and people would say then that it can only be done through miracle. Those miracles have now become a reality. In essence this is exactly what we say; everything you see and call a miracle is possible only because Allah is made provisions for it to happen. Some of these things were revealed in past, some being revealed now and some will reveal in future.

You are absolutly wrong in saying that we dont believe in Miracles. Now when you say miracles are natural phenomomenon, do you again actually understand what word natural means? Try to give me some explanation on that, shed your wisdom in context?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Others from your group - namely Chacha_Ghalib and more importantly Mirza Tahir are more truthful than you and admit that you believe that miracles are only natural phenomena that we still can’t scientifically explain … but will be able to explain as science progresses … The claim of Muslims is that a miracle breaks the laws of science …

Assalama alaykum brother psyah – Ahmadis have very selective views about miracles. Only miracles that count are the ones which suit them. All the miracles in the Quran are literally rejected by them all but one, very grudgingly they accept that Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) was born without agency of a father.

MGAQ ibn Chirag Bibi also states that “God almighty also changes his rules/laws”

Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion, then God almighty also changes his rules/laws and performs miracles. Although Dying is not a thing to grief and we say he is dead and has gone to other world where there are lot of pleasure for pious people, but if there is an objection to religion, Allah shows wonders. Wordly affairs are also the same, and do not care of law at the time of important need of country.** (Malfozat Vol 4 Page 296)**

http://www.alislam.org/urdu/pdf/Malfoozat-v4.pdf 296

Resurrection of Isa AS acc. to Mirza Tahir Sahib - Rah-e-Huda

In the link (a defunct Ahmadi debating forum) above read the post 7 and 8 by Yousaf Ahmed

“Now, let me tell you what Mirza Ghulam Ahmed sahib say about laws of nature and what God can do and what not. In his book Arya samaj he called people, who present laws of nature to deny miracles, as Kunway kay maindak.”

Resurrection of Isa AS acc. to Mirza Tahir Sahib - Rah-e-Huda

In the same link above: It is interesting to watch the video in the link about; Mirza Tahir is in a bullying mood.

At around 3.21 He says that Allah Almighty doesn’t break His laws once He has established them.

This is in complete contrast to his grandfather MGAQ ibn Chirag Bibi – and MGAQ ibn Chirag Bibi has dubbed such people as Kunway kay maindak.

Further he makes a fool of himself by stating the following:

At round 6-30 he calls Ibn Maryum (as) as Ghair-Muslim Nabi

At 6.38 he state that Hz Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is not a Muslim!!!

Repeats it again

6.43 Calls Hz Isa Ibn Maryum as Ghair-Muslim Nabi (as) – Whereas All the Prophets are Muslim and are from Allah Almighty.

6.53 Mirza Tahir States that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) didn’t change his religion!!!

MGAQ ibn Chirag Bibi – Miracle maker – Par Excellence (Tall claims are cheap to make)

"It is a fact that Muhammad (pbuh) worked only three thousand miracles..] My Miracles exceed one million in number."(Tadhkirah tul Shahadatain, Roohany Khazaen , Vol. 20, P. 43)

MGAQ is quoted having performed more than a million miracles.

MGAQ was about 78 years when he died.

Annually on the average he was performing 12820 miracles

So monthly on the average he was performing 1068 miracles

On daily basis on the average he was performing 35.6 miracles

3 miracle every 2 hours!!! - That includes the sleeping hours too!

Now that’s a miracle maker - I wish the Ahmadis here could let us know about top ten of the said miracles.

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@d-tox.ed

Yaar ye tou hadd ho gai na...Psyah bhai kabb pyaas bhujje gi aapki....anyways I ll try to jump in as well:

You said muslims believe the miracle breaks the laws of science? What is sciene? Do you have any idea what science is? In nutshell it explains how beautiful Allah's creation is and Allah reveals the miracles which he performs to us through scientific discoveries. Somethings which were not possible 50 years ago are now possible and people would say then that it can only be done through miracle. Those miracles have now become a reality. In essence this is exactly what we say; everything you see and call a miracle is possible only because Allah is made provisions for it to happen. Some of these things were revealed in past, some being revealed now and some will reveal in future.

You are absolutly wrong in saying that we dont believe in Miracles. Now when you say miracles are natural phenomomenon, do you again actually understand what word natural means? Try to give me some explanation on that, shed your wisdom in context?

I hope science will help explaining miracle when Ismail Alehi salam was changed with dumba....

[d-tox.ed]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Well Done for copying pasting and not reading a word of what your quoted. Just for the information of all please see attached the actual full paragraph. If you read all of it then perhaps it will make more sence.

Malfoozat are the sayings of Sayyedna Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Alehesalam. In this sitting a questioner came to Hadhrat sahib and shared his issue. Perhaps this time when you re-read try to concentrate on very first line you quoted “Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion” and then read it again the Urdu part in full.

@Ibn_Sadique

Assalama alaykum brother psyah – Ahmadis have very selective views about miracles. Only miracles that count are the ones which suit them. All the miracles in the Quran are literally rejected by them all but one, very grudgingly they accept that Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) was born without agency of a father.

MGAQ ibn Chirag Bibi also states that “God almighty also changes his rules/laws”

Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion, then God almighty also changes his rules/laws and performs miracles. Although Dying is not a thing to grief and we say he is dead and has gone to other world where there are lot of pleasure for pious people, but if there is an objection to religion, Allah shows wonders. Wordly affairs are also the same, and do not care of law at the time of important need of country.** (Malfozat Vol 4 Page 296)**

http://www.alislam.org/urdu/pdf/Malfoozat-v4.pdf 296

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Restored attachments:

[d-tox.ed]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

He was not changed with Dumba....show me where it is written that Hadhrat Ismail Alehesalam was changed with Dumba? Use your aqal my friend...Allah commanded Hadhrat Ibrahim alehesalam to sacrafice dumba and leave your son and indeed this is what happended.

@ninja_hattori

I hope science will help explaining miracle when Ismail Alehi salam was changed with dumba....

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@d-tox.ed

Well Done for copying pasting and not reading a word of what your quoted. Just for the information of all please see attached the actual full paragraph. If you read all of it then perhaps it will make more sence.

Malfoozat are the sayings of Sayyedna Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Alehesalam. In this sitting a questioner came to Hadhrat sahib and shared his issue. Perhaps this time when you re-read try to concentrate on very first line you quoted “Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion” and then read it again the Urdu part in full.

I don’t read Urdu

Do you deny this translation? No body on the board objected to the translation.

*Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion, then God almighty also changes his rules/laws and performs miracles. Although Dying is not a thing to grief and we say he is dead and has gone to other world where there are lot of pleasure for pious people, but if there is an objection to religion, Allah shows wonders. Wordly affairs are also the same, and do not care of law at the time of important need of country. *(Malfozat Vol 4 Page 296)

Could you give your translation for it.

[d-tox.ed]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

So you are telling me that you cant even Urdu and you are sitting here judging someone words and interpreting them to prove your self. With all due respect please in future read what you are quoting before posting. I dont need to translate anything for you here, its your job to prove your objection with correct reasoning and mine to refute if I think what you say is wrong. But how will you if you cant even read the full original paragraph.

BTW I dont mean to hijack the thread from Psyah and Popat but reading last few posts, it looks like both are exhausted so may as we ll continue with it.

@Ibn_Sadique

I don't read Urdu

Do you deny this translation? No body on the board objected to the translation.

*Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion, then God almighty also changes his rules/laws and performs miracles. Although Dying is not a thing to grief and we say he is dead and has gone to other world where there are lot of pleasure for pious people, but if there is an objection to religion, Allah shows wonders. Wordly affairs are also the same, and do not care of law at the time of important need of country. *(Malfozat Vol 4 Page 296)

Could you give your translation for it.

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Others from your group - namely Chacha_Ghalib and more importantly Mirza Tahir are more truthful than you and admit that you believe that miracles are only natural phenomena that we still can't scientifically explain ... but will be able to explain as science progresses ... The claim of Muslims is that a miracle breaks the laws of science ...

Forget about the rest for a moment and let me know are you sure this is your definition of a Miracle that a miracle is one that breaks the laws of science??

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@Ibn_Sadique

I don't read Urdu

Do you deny this translation? No body on the board objected to the translation.

*Where it comes to tussle and objection on religion, then God almighty also changes his rules/laws and performs miracles. Although Dying is not a thing to grief and we say he is dead and has gone to other world where there are lot of pleasure for pious people, but if there is an objection to religion, Allah shows wonders. Wordly affairs are also the same, and do not care of law at the time of important need of country. *(Malfozat Vol 4 Page 296)

Could you give your translation for it.

Instead of copy pasting stuff and causing distraction, please let me know which book are you getting this stuff from? I may suggest a book or two or few pointers to you in response that will keep you busy for a while.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@d-tox.ed

So you are telling me that you cant even Urdu and you are sitting here judging someone words and interpreting them to prove your self. With all due respect please in future read what you are quoting before posting. I dont need to translate anything for you here, its your job to prove your objection with correct reasoning and mine to refute if I think what you say is wrong. But how will you if you cant even read the full original paragraph.

BTW I dont mean to hijack the thread from Psyah and Popat but reading last few posts, it looks like both are exhausted so may as we ll continue with it.

I am debating in English and the translation was given on Ahmadi site and no ahmadi worth his/her salt objected to the translation - why don't you guys get to the meat of it and translate it and show us how it differs with the given translation -

Otherwise I request any Muslim person to verify the translation or better still translate it to the satisfaction of ahmadis over here.

I see see you guys dodging the issue rather that addressing it. Do you deny those words of Mr. MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi?

[d-tox.ed]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Haha...you are one funny guy...as you are suggesting you got this translation from Jamaat Ahmadiyya website. Could you please give the link at least?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

^ Open your eyes the link is given!!

@kchughtai

Forget about the rest for a moment and let me know are you sure this is your definition of a Miracle that a miracle is one that breaks the laws of science??

I repeat myself quoting Sher Ali Ahmadi

@Ibn_Sadique

He has not been able to comprehend all Divine secrets. There are mysteries in nature which man has not been able to solve as yet; perhaps he may be never to solve them. Among them may be included the fatherless birth of Jesus. God’s ways are inscrutable and he powers are limitless. He who could create the whole universe by the word, Kun (be), surely can bring about such changes in matter as should make this apparently insoluble mystery yield to a solution.

The Holy Quran