Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

Although your question is not relevant to the topic in hand, ill briefly answer.

Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is the Promised Messiah. He a.s, after getting revelations from Allah announced Isa a.s, son of Mary, a prophet sent to bani israel as dead. His belief once also was that Jesus a.s is alive in heavens, but that was before Allah told Him. Just like how Muhammad PBUH used to follow Biblical laws until a revelation used to come to Him which abrogated that law. Hazrat Ahmad(as) received revelations from Allah almighty to announce that Isa a.s is dead. He presented many many verses and ahadith in its support. Hadith mentioned about the coming of son of Mary indicates an ummati in muhammadi shariyah who will become a prophet, who will act strictly in accordance to Quran and ahadith and interpret them, and explain to Muslims where they differed. Just like how Jesus a.s was an ummati of Mosvi shariyat and awarded prophethood.

Hz Ahmad (as) and Jesus a.s are 2 different personalities. One was Masih sent to Jews, another sent to Muslims. ‘Son of Mary’ is the laqb given by Muhammad PBUH to the Promised Messiah in a sense that in Qur’an Momins have been said that they’re the likes of Mary and Asiyah (Pharoah’s wife). Thus referring to him as a true momin. This laqb also refers to His Paak character.

Anyway, to make it short, since Jesus of Nazareth has passed away like other prophets have, we are left with no other choice but to accept Hz Ahmad(as) as the one prophesised. There are many ways you can judge His claims. 4/5 of them you might recall which were also the criteria of the truthfulness of Muhammad PBUH. 1) whether he was known as a pious person among his people? 2) did he get confuse about the revelation which was sent on him (nervous, thinking that he may not be able to fulfill Allah’s commandment).. 3) Which type of people followed him during the first couple of his years of claim ( poor people or rich and educated people ), 4) Whose side is Allah on ?.. Does He help His followers, are their opponents getting defeated in every path ? 5) Are the followers increasing or decreasing ? … These are the criteria to judge the truthfulness of someone’s claims, as was used for Muhammad PBUH.

Hope this helped. Thanks.

Peace Mr.Popat

You are too lenient with interpretations from MGAQ. The style of his language is odd and you make somersaults to accept him. On one hand you say Jesus of Nazareth (AS) has died, but all of the Hadith talk about Isa (AS) using his actual name. There is no metaphor nor confusion about it. They say Isa ibn Maryam (AS) … MGAQ has nothing in similitude with Isa (AS) of the past. Not even his name. And the name you do further tricks with because it suits you is to assimilate it with the Mahdi. Then you require the Mahdi and Masih to be one in the same.

Well this presents a problem … It is because the Mahdi’s name will be Muhammad … Not Isa …

Then to read the writings where MGAQ claimed to be Maryam (AS) and gave birth to himself … is even more absurd. The basis for saying that Isa (AS) is buried in Kashmir is also a strange one. You claim that Isa (AS) went the to teach the lost sheep of the children of Israel. Knowing full well that Isa (AS) meant the spiritually lost sheep of the people of his region, you apply a physical meaning to this term “lost” and apply it to the diaspora of the Jews in the East.

This presents another problem that why Isa (AS) did not teach all the others who had been lost, why only one small section?

At the time of Isa (AS) it was like this …
Maps, Archaeology And Sources - The Jewish Diaspora | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

Only centuries later did the Jews travel further to the East …

And Kashmir was not the prime location either. The fundamentals collapse at the very beginning but you insist on taking us in to infinite detail … When the much more basic questions have not been answered.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Peace Mr.Popat

I said mid-sentence, because you stopped half way through the ayat. The rest of the ayat provides the conditions of the clause of the verse and contextualises why previous prophets have been invoked and on what manner they are “like” Isa (AS) … They are like him not because they “came and went” in the same manner … They are like him (AS) because they ate food.

Yes, the translations/assumptions of previous prophets has been known and accepted by Muslims. Certain things like mechanisms of returning people like Elijah is neither here nor there for us. The commentators of the Bible said that Elijah was John the Baptist., but this is neither explicitly stated by Jesus in the Bible nor is it something that we need to accept.

My point in stating this is that there are a few examples of prophets that have said to have “gone” in this manner in traditions. It deals with your complaint about Isa (AS) being unique, but in fact I have no problem with this being unique to Isa (AS) … That is your contention not mine.

And no … I am not kidding.

It seems like i’m talking to the wall. I did not stop half way through the ayah.I have spoken about that as well. Why do you feel you have to reply to me right away when your own statements about your belief are so twisted.

Please read the ayah with open mind. There are 2 parts to the verse relating to Jesus a.s. One part is combining Isa a.s with those prophets who have passed away before Him. You’re telling me that in that verse Jesus a.s is said to be like other prophets because they ate food. That is very wrong for you to interpret it this way. The eating part is ONLY and ONLY said about Jesus AS and His Mother. The verse is not like ‘prophets before him used to eat too’, or anything like that. The REASON of Allah using the example of EATING is that Jesus a.s ate, and God does not eat.. therefore Jesus a.s cannot be considered as God. Since He (as) ‘ate’ and was like other prophets, therefore, Jesus a.s passed away like other prophets have passed away who used to eat. Jesus a.s is like other prophets in passing away !

@psyah

Peace Mr.Popat

You are too lenient with interpretations from MGAQ. The style of his language is odd and you make somersaults to accept him. On one hand you say Jesus of Nazareth (AS) has died, but all of the Hadith talk about Isa (AS) using his actual name. There is no metaphor nor confusion about it. They say Isa ibn Maryam (AS) … MGAQ has nothing in similitude with Isa (AS) of the past. Not even his name. And the name you do further tricks with because it suits you is to assimilate it with the Mahdi. Then you require the Mahdi and Masih to be one in the same.

Well this presents a problem … It is because the Mahdi’s name will be Muhammad … Not Isa …

Then to read the writings where MGAQ claimed to be Maryam (AS) and gave birth to himself … is even more absurd. The basis for saying that Isa (AS) is buried in Kashmir is also a strange one. You claim that Isa (AS) went the to teach the lost sheep of the children of Israel. Knowing full well that Isa (AS) meant the spiritually lost sheep of the people of his region, you apply a physical meaning to this term “lost” and apply it to the diaspora of the Jews in the East.

This presents another problem that why Isa (AS) did not teach all the others who had been lost, why only one small section?

At the time of Isa (AS) it was like this …
Maps, Archaeology And Sources - The Jewish Diaspora | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

Only centuries later did the Jews travel further to the East …

And Kashmir was not the prime location either. The fundamentals collapse at the very beginning but you insist on taking us in to infinite detail … When the much more basic questions have not been answered.

Buddy, i assure you, I have answers to all of these questions.. you can PM me and ill answer you about every single allegation you raised. I have read His books, but you have not. You are shooting questions after questions without even having proper knowledge. I have enough knowledge to answer everything you asked.. but If I answer you all these questions, will you be convinced ?

Also, to you, it doesnt matter what He a.s wrote. Your first response should always be ‘’ he a.s cannot be Promised messiah because Jesus a.s is the only Messiah and he a.s is raised to heavens, is alive, and will be the only one coming back ‘’ << this needs to be answered first.. and you need to consult your ullamas regarding this belief.

You need to have neutral mind and ask your ullamas and ask them questions too. It wont hurt you.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

It seems like i’m talking to the wall.** I did not stop half way through the ayah** .

@Mr.Popat

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely,Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him.

Messengers like him had passed away.

Either Messiah, son of Mary (a.s) passed away like others, or messengers like him have passed away like Jesus a.s (bodily ascended). Either ..or..

:eek:

:nahi:

That was a clear lie!

Surat Al-Ma’idah [5:75] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

That sir is the full verse … If you can lie so easily … Why should I believe you?

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

That was a clear lie!

Surat Al-Ma’idah [5:75] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

That sir is the full verse … If you can lie so easily … Why should I believe you?

lol ! ! !

I have spoken about the eating part !! I talked about part 1 of that verse. The eating part in that verse is only referred for Messiah and His mother and that has different side to it.. and i’ve talked about it too.. im sure you remember me calling it a kufr for him to be alive and not eating and vice versa.. You are one funny man!

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

For now, you have to show me how Isa a.s is not like other prophets in the manner of passing away but rather because He a.s ate ? Does it even make sense to you ? He a.s ate like other prophets ate, but no other prophet is eating now and neither one of them is alive, and Jesus a.s is not eating and is still alive.. Where is the comparison in that ? C'mon buddy.. use brain for once!

How do you really come up with stuff like that ?? Seriously !

quoting what i just wrote above.. which you didnt feel like quoting.

[QUOTE]
Please read the ayah with open mind. There are 2 parts to the verse relating to Jesus a.s. One part is combining Isa a.s with those prophets who have passed away before Him. You're telling me that in that verse Jesus a.s is said to be like other prophets because they ate food. That is very wrong for you to interpret it this way. The eating part is ONLY and ONLY said about Jesus AS and His Mother. The verse is not like 'prophets before him used to eat too', or anything like that. The REASON of Allah using the example of EATING is that Jesus a.s ate, and God does not eat.. therefore Jesus a.s cannot be considered as God. Since He (as) 'ate' and was like other prophets, therefore, Jesus a.s passed away like other prophets have passed away who used to eat. Jesus a.s is like other prophets in passing away !
[/QUOTE]

[shardmanny]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[QUOTE]
For now, you have to show me how Isa a.s is not like other prophets in the manner of passing away but rather because He a.s ate ?
[/QUOTE]

yes, because thats the main point of the verse. its aimed at christians remember

are you still with us?

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

lol ! ! !

I have spoken about the eating part !! I talked about part 1 of that verse. The eating part in that verse is only referred for Messiah and His mother and that has different side to it.. and i've talked about it too.. im sure you remember me calling it a kufr for him to be alive and not eating and vice versa.. You are one funny man!

You have said many things Mr.Popat ... And you keep saying them and I keep responding ... But this here is a blatant lie that you did not stop mid-verse and now you are laughing making it worse ... No shame!

There is no part 1 or part 2 of the verse ... That is also made up nonsense ... It is a verse ... so treat it as that ...

If you can't then I am unable to continue this conversation with a such a person. This whole thread demonstrates that you can't just take things out of context or make up your own context ... Furthermore you lie ... So what point is there speaking with you ... Did you or didn't you stop mid- verse? Don't give me the same old I've addressed this and that ... All of that is unimportant ... You lied ... Seek apology ... Don't just laugh ... That is terrible.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Christian: Jesus is God
Muslim: No he isn't
Christian: Ok, does God die?
Muslim: No
Christian: Ok, Man die?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Well ...is Jesus alive?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don't believe he died
Muslim: No .... Look does God eat?
Christian: No
Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like the other prophets, he can't be God.

This is the line of argumentation to demonstrate Jesus (AS) is not God ... This "Qad Khalat" idea itching to show that Jesus(AS) in some way died is a fake and false and flimsy argument.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

^
Simple, loud and clear :k:

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Brother psyah :salam2:With your permission

Christian: Jesus is God
Muslim: No he isn’t
Christian: Ok, does God die?
Muslim: No
Christian: Ok, Man die?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Well …is Jesus alive?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don’t believe he died
Muslim: No … Look does God eat?
Christian: No
Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like the other prophets, he can’t be God.
Qadiani: (Butting in) I don’t like this kind of reasoning.
Muslim: Why?!
Qadiani: This is too simple and logical
Muslim:Huh???!
Qadiani:I like it when it is complicated and confusing
Muslim: WHY?
Qadiani: I don’t like MGAQ ibn Chiragh Bibi to be proved wrong
Muslim:

[Mr.Popat]

Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

What a shame to be talking to you psyah. I did not stop mid way. One part is that he passed away like others did. Other is that he and his mother used to eat. Because he 'passed away' like others, making it a past tense therefore the second part of eating is in past tense too.

It is again a shame how your behavior had turned out to be. Ive explained the eating example part.

Your duty is to show me how he is he the same like others who ate. How does that even make Sense to you?

Ive said it before and ill say it now. Focus on thr first part of thr verse. You cannot run away like this, by showing your attitude.

Christians say he is god because he is alive!!
You believe he is alive as well. God said god doesnt eat an is alive. You say the same thing abt jesus an yet say ure very clear about stuff. Shame on you!

Isa a.s is a messenger and messengers like him have passed away!!!! If you're sayin Jesus is like them in the habit of eating and not in passing away even thennn!!!! Even then dude!! All messengers stopped eating and died and jesus doesnt eat and is alive!! Howwww is he like them???

Stop fooling yourself and keep your attitude to yourself. When you cannot answer, stop talking to me and admit you DO NOT have an answer to this!

READ the whole verse for goodnesss sakeee!!! I wanted to drae ur attention to the first part of the verse. Eating and not eating is only for Jesus and his mother not for other prophets!

Im deeply hurt with your attitude for callig me a liar. You do not feel ashamed one bit and dont feel like understanding at all.

No further talk with you. Remember just 2 verses shocked ur beliefs. We've got many many more of that. Keep believing ur fairytales. And your attitudr shows a lot about you.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

It does not matter what you say ... The belief that Isa (AS) is alive was prevalent at the time of Muhammad (SAW) and the ahadith speak volumes about this ... the same hadith that have been preserved from the earliest of Islamic records - like the Qur'an itself ... You are throwing conjecture in to the equation ... a conjecture that has only started in the last hundred plus a few years.

But for us there is no ambiguity ... You will need to prove that our traditional chain through time is wrong ... that what we understand today is somehow NOT what the Sahabah en masse ... thought.

The rules ... are ijma', consideration of every reference before a verdict is made ...and consideration of full ayahs and full references.

You will also need to show us how and when these ideas of Isa (AS) being alive have started in time and when those ideas changed the view that Isa (AS) had died ... as you claim the Qur'an "clearly" states ...

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

What a shame to be talking to you psyah. I did not stop mid way. One part is that he passed away like others did. Other is that he and his mother used to eat. Because he ‘passed away’ like others, making it a past tense therefore the second part of eating is in past tense too.

It is again a shame how your behavior had turned out to be. Ive explained the eating example part.

Peace Mr.Popat

Ok ok … I’ll calm down …

Now I have highlighted part of your text above … Show in the ‘first part’ of that verse where it says “he passed away like others” ???

I need to see how you are making the “qad khalat” of previous prophets = the predicament of “Isa (AS)” …

A verse can contain many sentences … The first part that you are alluding to has two sentences:

a) Isa (AS) is a messenger
b) Messengers have passed away before him

Where in these two sentences does it say that Isa (AS) has:

1. Passed Away
2. He is like them or his passing away was like theirs?

Note: You cannot split verses up in to parts - this particular verse has at least 4 sentences and each one of those sentences are intertwined. If you separate them in to two parts you will get an absurdity that I will show you in short while inshaAllah.

Let me show you the Venn diagram of the logical construct of this verse 5:75 … Please show me how I have made it incorrectly.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Peace Mr.Popat

It does not matter what you say … The belief that Isa (AS) is alive was prevalent at the time of Muhammad (SAW) and the ahadith speak volumes about this … the same hadith that have been preserved from the earliest of Islamic records - like the Qur’an itself … You are throwing conjecture in to the equation … a conjecture that has only started in the last hundred plus a few years.

But for us there is no ambiguity … You will need to prove that our traditional chain through time is wrong … that what we understand today is somehow NOT what the Sahabah en masse … thought.

The rules … are ijma’, consideration of every reference before a verdict is made …and consideration of full ayahs and full references.

You will also need to show us how and when these ideas of Isa (AS) being alive have started in time and when those ideas changed the view that Isa (AS) had died … as you claim the Qur’an “clearly” states …

To me, Quranic teachings hold more importance than any of the scholar’s interpretation of any verse or hadith. If their interpretation is in complete accordance to Quran and ahadith, I accept it, or else I question.. theres no restrictions on me according to Islam to question the beliefs if I see them not synchronizing with Quran and ahadith. The ahadith you speak about is of the coming of Messiah in Muslim Ummah. When Qur’an have many verses announcing His death, I do not understand why would you insist on keeping Isa a.s alive. There are ahadith which clears the doubt that the future messiah will be different than Messiah sent before (physical appearance).. I’ve never rejected any hadith speaking of Messiah coming.. but these ahadith needs to be interpreted. If we wait for Messiah the same way jews waited, and reject Him based on the same premises jews rejected their messiah, then we as muslims are following the footsteps of jews, which again is a hadith that Muslims will be like jews in their traits.

Furthermore, there are ahadith such as the event of Mir’aj in which prophet of Allah saw Jesus a.s. Another hadith provides the definition that Muhammad PBUH himself did of the word tawaffii. There are other ahadith as such which you completely ignore or have your hand on it to hide it.

The belief of Jesus alive in heavens does not date back to the time of Muhammad PBUH. As I said earlier, we see no evidence in the time of Muhammad PBUH where any Christian might have argued with Muslim about the ascension of Isa a.s and calling their belief same as that of Muslims.

What traditional chain are you referring to where the ascension of Isa a.s is mentioned ?

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Peace Mr.Popat

Ok ok … I’ll calm down …

Now I have highlighted part of your text above … Show in the ‘first part’ of that verse where it says “he passed away like others” ???

I need to see how you are making the “qad khalat” of previous prophets = the predicament of “Isa (AS)” …

You said earlier that Isa a.s is like other prophets not because he passed away like others but because he ate like others. This is not right. The reason why is :

1. In the verse, only Jesus a.s and virgin Mary (a.s) is mentioned as the one who used to eat.
2. Jesus a.s is mentioned as a messenger, like messengers before Him.
3. Jesus a.s is not like other messengers because they all ate. This is not the likeness the verse is presenting. If you think this is the case, then how is it that all prophets stopped eating and died, whereas, Jesus a.s is not eating and is still alive. There is no comparison of Jesus a.s with other prophets in regards to example of eating.

@psyah

A verse can contain many sentences … The first part that you are alluding to has two sentences:

a) Isa (AS) is a messenger
b) Messengers have passed away before him

Where in these two sentences does it say that Isa (AS) has:

1. Passed Away
2. He is like them or his passing away was like theirs?

Isa a.s is a messenger. Messengers have passed away before him. Does it mean messengers before him have passed away but Isa a.s has not? What was the point of Allah saying He was no more than a messenger ? who is taking him anything other than a messenger?

(let’s make this example similar to that of the verse). Henry is no more than a human. Humans make mistake. Does it mean humans make mistake but Henry does not ? If this is the case, then Henry is someone more than a human. It’s simple logic. How can you call this a poor logic ?

2. Either His passing away was like other prophets, or other prophets passing away was like His. As I said, either..or…

Note: You cannot split verses up in to parts - this particular verse has at least 4 sentences and each one of those sentences are intertwined. If you separate them in to two parts you will get an absurdity that I will show you in short while inshaAllah.

You know I’ve addressed about the example of eating in that verse. It is only about Jesus and His mother. How does the example of eating for Jesus a.s and His mother in any way related to prophets who passed away before Jesus a.s ?

Let me show you the Venn diagram of the logical construct of this verse 5:75 … Please show me how I have made it incorrectly.

I will comment on this later on, iA

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Christian: Jesus is God
Muslim: No he isn’t
Christian: Ok, does God die?
Muslim: No
Christian: Ok, Man die?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Well …is Jesus alive?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don’t believe he died
Muslim: No … Look does God eat?
Christian: No
Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like the other prophets, he can’t be God.

This is the line of argumentation to demonstrate Jesus (AS) is not God … This “Qad Khalat” idea itching to show that Jesus(AS) in some way died is a fake and false and flimsy argument.

Let me tell you how it really should be..

Christian: Jesus is God
Muslim: No he isn’t
Christian: Ok, does God die?
Muslim: No
Christian: Ok, Man die?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Well …is Jesus alive?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don’t believe he died
Muslim: No … Look does God eat?
Christian: Yes. Jesus a.s is God and he ate. He came in human form. . Jesus a.s ate and is still God.
Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like other prophets, he can’t be God.
Christians: so ??? all those prophets died. Jesus did not. He a.s ate, but is not eating anymore. God doesnt eat and is alive. Jesus a.s is not eating and is alive. Therefore He a.s is indeed God.
Muslim : Oh … i never thought about that !

What the reply of a Muslim should be :

Muslim : He was like other prophets who passed away. Just like how they needed food to sustain themselves, so did Jesus a.s. Just like how they passed away and no longer eats, so does Jesus a.s passed away and no longer eats. Who doesnt eat and is still alive and will always remain alive is God alone, not any form of human you consider God.

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Christian: Jesus is God Muslim: No he isn't Christian: Ok, does God die? Muslim: No Christian: Ok, Man die? Muslim: Yes Christian: Well ...is Jesus alive? Muslim: Yes Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don't believe he died Muslim: No .... Look does God eat? Christian: No Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like the other prophets, he can't be God.

This is the line of argumentation to demonstrate Jesus (AS) is not God ... This "Qad Khalat" idea itching to show that Jesus(AS) in some way died is a fake and false and flimsy argument.

psyah sahib,

let me modify the dialogue you presented:

Muslim: No he isn't
Christian: Ok, does God die?
Muslim: No
Christian: Ok, Man die?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Well ...is Jesus alive?
Muslim: Yes but you also believe that Jesus died on cross. God doesn't die.
Christian: Yes he suffered the pain and died on cross for us but was resurrected after 3 days. Man once die don't come back like that.
Muslims: We don't believe he died at all.
Christian: ok fine. at least we agree that he is alive and only living prophet is him and he will come back again. you believe this too
Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don't believe he died
Muslim: No .... Look does God eat?
Christian: No
Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like the other prophets, he can't be God.
Christian: Na Na, When he was on this earth, he was in human form and experienced all that humans do. Your Quran says that Messengers were given mortal bodies that needed food but as you say he is alive up in the heavens and Quran also says that Jesus used to eat food. that is past. It means he doesn't need food and is still alive so he certainly is more than a mere human and a messenger.
Muslim:??? but he could be kept survived by 'other means'
Christian: Kindly don't give me this nonsense that you present to Ahmadis. If he is in no need of food that human body needs then he is either dead or not human and you say he is alive.
Only he gave life and resurrected dead ones. He is the only one whom God took to Himself to his throne and have him seated on His right hand. He will come again and lead to the ultimate victory....

I can prolong this dialogue but let us cut this here.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

To me, Quranic teachings hold more importance than any of the scholar’s interpretation of any verse or hadith. If their interpretation is in complete accordance to Quran and ahadith, I accept it, or else I question.. theres no restrictions on me according to Islam to question the beliefs if I see them not synchronizing with Quran and ahadith. The ahadith you speak about is of the coming of Messiah in Muslim Ummah. When Qur’an have many verses announcing His death, I do not understand why would you insist on keeping Isa a.s alive. There are ahadith which clears the doubt that the future messiah will be different than Messiah sent before (physical appearance).. I’ve never rejected any hadith speaking of Messiah coming.. but these ahadith needs to be interpreted. If we wait for Messiah the same way jews waited, and reject Him based on the same premises jews rejected their messiah, then we as muslims are following the footsteps of jews, which again is a hadith that Muslims will be like jews in their traits.

Furthermore, there are ahadith such as the event of Mir’aj in which prophet of Allah saw Jesus a.s. Another hadith provides the definition that Muhammad PBUH himself did of the word tawaffii. There are other ahadith as such which you completely ignore or have your hand on it to hide it.

The belief of Jesus alive in heavens does not date back to the time of Muhammad PBUH. As I said earlier, we see no evidence in the time of Muhammad PBUH where any Christian might have argued with Muslim about the ascension of Isa a.s and calling their belief same as that of Muslims.

What traditional chain are you referring to where the ascension of Isa a.s is mentioned ?

Peace Mr.Popat

The Qur’an does not announce that Isa (AS) has died, but it does announce that Isa (AS) will die at some point as discussed earlier.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Christian: Jesus is God
Muslim: No he isn’t
Christian: Ok, does God die?
Muslim: No
Christian: Ok, Man die?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Well …is Jesus alive?
Muslim: Yes
Christian: Therefore he is God (Auzdubillah), because you don’t believe he died
Muslim: No … Look does God eat?
Qadiani taunts and Christian: Yes. Jesus a.s is God and he ate. He came in human form. . Jesus a.s ate and is still God.
Muslim: Jesus (AS) ate, just like other prophets, he can’t be God.
Qadiani and Christian: so ??? all those prophets died. Jesus did not. He a.s ate, but is not eating anymore. God doesnt eat and is alive. Jesus a.s is not eating and is alive. Therefore He a.s is indeed God.
Muslim : God never ate … eating implies sustenance is needed, it implies going to the toilet, these are not traits of God …
Christian: Oh … but Jesus the man ate and Jesus the God didn’t.
Qadiani: Therefore Jesus died … don’t you get it?
Muslim: Oh … i never thought about that ! sarc

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

The point is that Quran provided evidence of Jesus like earlier prophets and messengers

Jesus(as) can't be God since he needed to eat like rest of the prophets. (example of earlier prophets. No uniqueness. Both he and his mother used to eat). Here death was not mentioned as the audience are those who accept that he died (on cross).

He can't be God since his fatherless birth that chrsitians present to prove that he nauzbillah the only son of God was like that of Adam. (No Uniqueness)