Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace kchughtai

Qad Khalat in this ayat is asking us to look at the "messengers that have passed on" it does not go out to explain how they passed on ... Linguisitcally Grammatically it does not infer all prophets have passed on and it does not tell how they passed on - i.e. ascension or death ...

This is simple ... so understand ...

And your reasoning is absurd ... If I say "Many people were killed in that massacre" how can that infer "some people were not killed in that massacre" ???

You are unable to think in pure logic ... The statement "many people" is not bound ... many just means a high number ... a plurality or 3+ ... This does not provide a logical 'NOT' that you are producing.

And the fuller meaning is not "many messengers have passed away" but "many messengers have passed away that ate" or "many messengers have passed away that were killed or slain" it is not to say that all of were killed or slain and it is also not the case to say that "some did not eat" - these are all linguistic and grammatical possibilities but not logically mandated to be the case.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Man, its you who’ve got very poor logic skills..Seriously, it makes me laugh! ..You just dont want to admit whats clearly the teaching of Qur’an.

You are implying that there are ‘some’ humans that dont make mistakes. Because Henry is a human and “NOT ALL” humans make mistakes, therefore Henry is an exception ! Really buddy… really ?? It’s a given thing that humans which include everyone make mistakes!

**

Both verses have qad khalat. Lets take Isa a.s’s case. If 'ALL" prophets did not pass away before Isa a.s, then there should be someone who must be alive before Isa a.s. Who are the prophets who are still alive before Isa a.s ?

“come and gone” is used for prophets before Muhammad PBUH and before Isa a.s. You are wrong to say that in one verse ‘come and gone’ are explained by ‘to eat’. This is my 100th time telling you, the example of eating is the 2nd part of that verse. It is only about Jesus a.s and His Virgin Mother Mary. The first part of the verse is the same as what the verse of Muhammad PBUH says.. prophets before him have passed away. Part 2 of 5:75 about eating is to show Christians that He ate, but God does not eat. The first part of 5:75 is clear enough. It is very unfair from your side to be purposely ignoring part 1 of verse 5:75, which says Isa a.s was a messenger like others and messengers like him have passed away. No, passing away is not described in this verse as someone who ate. Kindly get that right.

No. There is no other way of someone passing away from this world. Once you are alive, you do not go to heaven unless you die. To say that mawt is the only term to be used for death is non sense! Verse 2:134, 2:141, 13:30 and other verses in which Qad khalat has been used to mean death/dead. There are also other verses in which translators have translated the terms as passed away to mean they died. To say ‘passed away’ mean ‘came and gone’ and not explaining how you take ‘came and gone’ shows you are deliberately choosing not to talk about it.

He died, but not by getting killed, but rather from a natural death. Thats the only 2 ways. Since Quran clears him that He did not die from crucifixion(killed), the other way and only way is to die from a natural death.

Jesus a.s according to you is being sustained some other way. If you believe this then you are not taking him as a prophet, neither are you taking him as a human nauzubillah. He is alive according to you, and he is alive without food. The attribute Allah said is for himself. Do you really see this as a small thing ?

Thats a good conclusion to satisfy your own mind. However, Quran tells us something else. We should have our beliefs in accordance to Quran, not have Quran interpreted in accordance to our beliefs.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

If the above highlighted statement does not mean ''some people were not killed in that massacre'', then there 2 meanings that we can draw from 'Many people were killed in that massacre''

1 ) Either some got saved >>since in the example, 'all' is not used, but 'many'
2 ) Either all died >> since you insist ''some people were not killed in that massacre''.

Simple.. please understand.

You cannot have your feet in two boats.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Popat Peace Before you attempt to reply my posts, could you address the following:

I sincerely believe that Allah Almighty performs miracles. Allah Almighty controls His laws. He can 'bend' or suspend His laws to perform miracles. He is not bound by His laws.

By just saying 'Kun' the required miracles happens.

So do you agree if I said the following?

"When it comes to tussle and objection on religion, then God almighty also changes his rules/laws and performs miracles" so that a Divine miracles can take place.

Thank you.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Mr.Popat

I don't want to become an Ahmadi ... And you obviously don't want to leave being an Ahmadi ... Let's agree to disagree about our interpretations ... Because we are going around in circles ...

This latest post of yours is evidence of more distractions for me to entertain ... Leave me alone or stick to the topic.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Stop being obtuse ... And this point is another distraction ...

If I say many people were killed ... It means more than a certain amount ... That is deemed as not many ...

And IF you must be specific ... A plural in Arabic is 3 or more ... So if you want it to mean other than plural then it can take the meaning of dual or single ... But because it is plural it can include all of them too ... But my argument is that it is not specifically ALL ...

So please save yourself further embarrassment .... Your argument is going to lead to no where and you know it.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Coming up with an answer that Jesus a.s is sustained by Allah in other way and calling it a miracle is not going to cut it sir. You can have what ever kind of belief. I couldn't care less. My belief is in exact accordance to Qur'an and thus far, no one could show me where I'm wrong. Alhamdulillah that was just 2/3 verses that I put forth which literally shook your heads, we have more of the Quranic verses in support of our view. You know what you'll keep doing ? keep making him exception and at the end keep calling it a miracle. If you must call it that, then sure. That will be your belief which Quran does not approve.

I'm not going to respond to your posts as I find replying to your posts waste of my time. The context you quoted from Tauzeeh Maram is incorrect. I don't know if you have personally read the book and quoted it or just used anti ahmadiyya site and post whatever is already there without reading it yourself. Anyhow, go to alislam.org, click on rohani khazaen, volume 3, Tauzeeh Maram is in volume 3, please read the book and then come back to me.

Thanks.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

So, all this debate and helplessly defending what you believe in is all in the effort of not becoming an Ahmadi ? who is making you an ahmadi ?

I'm very much sticking to the topic. I'm still talking about 2 verses in which previous prophets have been said to pass away. Very much the topic on hand.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

You like making things complicated for yourself, dont you ?

Around 124000 prophets came to mankind. 'Many' prophets before Isa passed away, 'Many' prophets before Muhammad passed away too.

I dont think my question needed that complicated answer.

If 'Many' prophets passed away from the amount of 124000.. what conclusion should i draw from this ?

1) Out of 124000 prophets, there have been many who passed away, but some who did not ?

2) If option 1 is incorrect then the other option would be that they all passed away ?

Is there anything else that you think of ?

Don't worry about embarrassing me. That is fine by me. As long as I get my answers, thats ok.

ps: even after clear teachings of Quran, not just these 2 verses, but some more, as well as ahadith, I still say that it is not up to the individual who believe a human who is bound to die is dead to prove it to anyone. Its by default. The burden of the proof lies on the shoulder of the one who says despite him being a human, he has not died, and he does not need food to be sustained.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him.

Messengers like him had passed away.

Either Messiah, son of Mary (a.s) passed away like others, or messengers like him have passed away like Jesus a.s (bodily ascended). Either ..or..

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Popat - It has been noticed that you have not answered my question.

Do you agree with the highlighted (Red) sentence in my post quoted above? Thanks in anticipation

After that you can ignore my posts to your hearts satisfaction.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

mrpopat, what is the relationship between mgaq and Isa ibn Maryam (AS)? example answers: mgaq is masih isa ibn maryam, is the 'like of', mgaq is masih but has nothing to do with Isa (AS)

also could you list the verses you feel you have not been answered. example: 1:1, 1:2, 5:75, 6:75

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Learn Arabic and be convinced of whatever you want. I have shown you how to understand the verses you can accept it or not.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Mr.Popat

It says "Prophet*s* have passed on before you" ... The only thing that "s" implies is that it is more than or equal to "3" ...So it could be any number between 3 and 123,998 in the case of the verse talking about Isa (SAW) or any number between 3 and 123,999 for the verse talking about Muhammad (SAW).

If the method of "passing on" is without exception "death" then this phrase still cannot be translated as and limited to "all prophets" ... in which case it allows the interpretation of some have not died.

The miracle in this is that with Isa (AS) at least two prophets had not passed on ... and with Muhammad (SAW) at least one had not passed on ... which means the singular and dual form would be excluded from this meaning which it does logically since the plural term is used denoting 3 or more.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

You're unnecessarily arguing. Both of the verses are in Quran and you cannot deny them. Verse about Isa is structured like this >> Isa a.s is a messenger and** messengers like him** had passed away. Either he passed away like other prophets did, or prophets like him have passed away like he did (bodily ascended).

Do you believe any messenger has not died before Isa (as) ?

If Jesus a.s is the only exception you are making out of 124,000 prophets, then that is absurd! verse should have something like prophets have passed away except one or something similar. You cannot make one prophet exception out of all 124000 prophets. Sorry but thats very illogical!. Do you think Arabic language cannot specifically make one prophet an exception ?

Muhammad PBUH verse >> Muhammad pbuh is a messenger. Messengers have passed away before him. Keep in mind this verse was not revealed when Muhammad PBUH passed away but rather when he s.a.w. was alive.

Do you find any tradition in which any sahabah asked messenger of Allah (saw), that if Jesus a.s was raised up to heavens alive, why cant you ? or vice versa?

The belief of Isa a.s going to heavens alive is illogical. Quran does not approve it. Muhammad PBUH is the best model and ideal for the entire mankind. How is it possible that the same act of going to heavens for Muhammad PBUH is rejected by Allah but accepted for Isa a.s. There is also not a single evidence in which Muhammad PBUH have told his sahabah how Allah is maintaining Isa a.s or any sahabah asking Muhammad pbuh any of such question.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

The clause of the verse is not found mid-sentence … You are making it out that the phrase Qad Khalat is in any way saying “death” … And on top of that you are being deceptive with the mid- sentence break … According to me Isa (AS) has “come and gone” Qad Khalat applies to him (AS) … But just because messengers like him (AS) have come and gone, it does not mean they have “come and gone” in the same way as him (AS) …

And if some of them have ascended to heaven … I can’t affirm that or reject that since there are 123,950 odd prophets that I do not have any information on and neither do you.

Otherwise there are examples of prophetic Ascension other than Isa (AS) …

Sayyiduna Idris (AS) was one candidate …he (AS) is known as Enoch … See

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

What mid sentence ?

According to you Isa a.s has ‘come and gone’ but you fail to explain to me what ‘come and gone’ mean to you? Does it mean they will come back again? if so, then you are really not getting the point. He a.s either ‘come and gone’ like other prophets have or other prophets have ‘come and gone’ like Isa a.s have ( bodily ascended )

You’re kidding now, right ?

You’re giving me Bible reference about something which is not the belief in Islam ? Is this your belief that Hz Idris a.s is alive ? If it’s not then your reference is wrong and is not credible. If this is your belief then you should also reject Isa a.s for the same reason that in Judaism a prophet was to descend from heaven before the coming of Messiah a.s. Fact of the matter is, no prophet has been saved from death once they were sent on Earth. Any belief against this is plain ignorance.

Strangely enough, there are stories of prophets goin to heavens, but we have never and will never ever see anyone physically descending from heavens alive.

Sorry. I dont understand what you’re asking.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^the questions are so simple, i wouldnt have thought it possible for them to confuse you, or be difficult for you to answer

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Although your question is not relevant to the topic in hand, ill briefly answer.

Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is the Promised Messiah. He a.s, after getting revelations from Allah announced Isa a.s, son of Mary, a prophet sent to bani israel as dead. His belief once also was that Jesus a.s is alive in heavens, but that was before Allah told Him. Just like how Muhammad PBUH used to follow Biblical laws until a revelation used to come to Him which abrogated that law. Hazrat Ahmad(as) received revelations from Allah almighty to announce that Isa a.s is dead. He presented many many verses and ahadith in its support. Hadith mentioned about the coming of son of Mary indicates an ummati in muhammadi shariyah who will become a prophet, who will act strictly in accordance to Quran and ahadith and interpret them, and explain to Muslims where they differed. Just like how Jesus a.s was an ummati of Mosvi shariyat and awarded prophethood.

Hz Ahmad (as) and Jesus a.s are 2 different personalities. One was Masih sent to Jews, another sent to Muslims. 'Son of Mary' is the laqb given by Muhammad PBUH to the Promised Messiah in a sense that in Qur'an Momins have been said that they're the likes of Mary and Asiyah (Pharoah's wife). Thus referring to him as a true momin. This laqb also refers to His Paak character.

Anyway, to make it short, since Jesus of Nazareth has passed away like other prophets have, we are left with no other choice but to accept Hz Ahmad(as) as the one prophesised. There are many ways you can judge His claims. 4/5 of them you might recall which were also the criteria of the truthfulness of Muhammad PBUH. 1) whether he was known as a pious person among his people? 2) did he get confuse about the revelation which was sent on him (nervous, thinking that he may not be able to fulfill Allah's commandment).. 3) Which type of people followed him during the first couple of his years of claim ( poor people or rich and educated people ), 4) Whose side is Allah on ?.. Does He help His followers, are their opponents getting defeated in every path ? 5) Are the followers increasing or decreasing ? ............ These are the criteria to judge the truthfulness of someone's claims, as was used for Muhammad PBUH.

Hope this helped. Thanks.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

I said mid-sentence, because you stopped half way through the ayat. The rest of the ayat provides the conditions of the clause of the verse and contextualises why previous prophets have been invoked and on what manner they are "like" Isa (AS) ... They are like him not because they "came and went" in the same manner ... They are like him (AS) because they ate food.

Yes, the translations/assumptions of previous prophets has been known and accepted by Muslims. Certain things like mechanisms of returning people like Elijah is neither here nor there for us. The commentators of the Bible said that Elijah was John the Baptist., but this is neither explicitly stated by Jesus in the Bible nor is it something that we need to accept.

My point in stating this is that there are a few examples of prophets that have said to have "gone" in this manner in traditions. It deals with your complaint about Isa (AS) being unique, but in fact I have no problem with this being unique to Isa (AS) ... That is your contention not mine.

And no ... I am not kidding.