Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

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341

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

How does one 'come and go' ? What does that 'came and gone' mean when it was used for prophets? 1) before Muhammad PBUH, 2 ) before Isa a.s. ?

The term qad khalat is not a rocket science as you're implying it to be. Even like the way you are explaining it, it still means the same thing. Look at your history of prophets that have come and gone, (by getting killed and by dying a natural death). If Muhammad PBUH 'come and go' the same way, then will you turn your back on him (s.a.w).? That is how it is.

Lets take your explanation for the other verse as well. Look at the history of prophets that have come and gone before Jesus a.s. Jesus a.s was a prophet just like those who have come and gone. His mother was a truthful woman. Both, Jesus a.s and His mother used to eat. If we consider prophets BEFORE Isa a.s to have come and gone, and take that come and gone to mean passed away(in english or even in urdu it means died), then the verse says Jesus a.s was a prophet just like them. If they all died, then so did Jesus a.s, as Allah is not making any exception here. He is including jesus a.s with all those prophets who passed away.

He used to eat. You insist in saying that he 'ate' food and that the quality of 'eating' makes im mortal and not anything like Deity. If he ate food, and if he is NOT eating food now, then it automatically makes him someone like Deity! ( if hes not dead ). You forget about the other side of the verse completely. You say one thing and then cannot back it up with anything.

If he a.s is not eating, and Allah says he alone is the one who is paak from this, then you are associating partner with Allah!!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

The way I am explaining it detaches it from the clause of the ayat, by taking the meaning (look at your history of those past prophets) ... but you are connecting it to the clause ...you are saying that the verse is talking about the said prophet has died, but you are ignoring those parts of the verse that qualify the clause - i.e. in the case of Muhammad (SAW) it mentions others were slain or died and in the case of Isa (AS) it mentions how others ate food. So you conclude that statement in red above, but since qad khalat is only providing the basis for look at the example of those previous prophets ... didn't they eat food? So your statement should say "Jesus (AS) was a prophet like them in their eating habits" ... whereas previously Sayyidina Muhammad (SAW) was a prophet like some of those who have come, because they were killed or like most were known to have died. (AS) ..
This also proves the condition that he (SAW) had died in ... there are references that suggest the poison that he (SAW) was fed tormented him until he (SAW) died ...

Also the way you are explaining it makes it appear the verse is talking about all previous prophets in both cases, but I am saying that it does not include all prophets of the past, but it wants you to look at similar examples from the sea of past prophets to find similarity in their stories.

To summarise:

Qad khalat does not give context to the verse, it is setting the conditions from which the context is being generated - you have not recognised this.

The verse is not making a definitive statement regarding the pattern of ALL previous prophets - you have not recognised this either.

My conclusion is that these verses do not show that Isa (AS) has died yet ... rather if anything demonstrate that he (AS) has not died yet, when compared together.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace,
Sorry to keep quoting you. You can decide not to reply, and let someone else answer, which would be fine to me.

You cannot explain the verse however you like to. You need to see the verse and interpret it accordingly.

In case of Muhammad PBUH, it is said, prophets before him have 'passed away'.. then it explains the way of 'passing away' by sayin if he s.a.w either gets killed or dies a natural death..

In case of Jesus a.s, you're not getting it! Jesus a.s is combined with all the prophets before Him that passed away. For the eating part, only Jesus a.s and His mother was said to used to eat. Keep in mind, the verse is about Jesus a.s, not about prophets that passed away before Him. Obviously all the prophets before Him used to eat as well.. but its all about jesus a.s in this verse. He died like other prophets have died,(thats first part of the verse) and he used to eat(thats second part of the verse). There are 2 things Allah is talking about in one verse. His death like other prophets, and his being mortal because he a.s used to eat. What you said about highlighted is WRONG! the term qad khalat was used to for the basis of connecting Jesus a.s with other prophets. 'messengers like him have passed away'. Then allah says His mother was a truthful woman. Then Allah says they both used to eat food(verse is about Jesus a.s). Your analogy of the use of term qad khalat in that verse is absurd.

How these both verses make you think that Jesus a.s is still alive is beyond my understanding. Everything is crystal clear ! Allah makes his signs clear in different ways. For goodness sake, dont misinterpret verses of Quran which dont even need explanation. Which can even be understood by a 4th grader.

Saaf dil ko kasrat ejaaz ki haajat nahi
Ik nishaan kaafi hai, gar dil main ho khauf e kirdegaar.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Yes All mortals eat and Allah (swt) does not eat.

As you know Christians attributed divinity to Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) so Allah (swt) is nullifying this claim by reminding the Christians that (while Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) was around (on Earth) among his followers) he used to eat food.

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is NOT DEAD and is in Heaven now – this is the Belief of Muslims – He is in the care of Allah (swt). This is Alam al Ghayb – This known only to Allah (swt). If it is necessary for Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) to eat being a Mortal, Allah (swt) will provide for him.

And it is within Allah’s (swt) Ability keep him Alive without food for how long He likes – for this is easy for Allah (swt) – All He has to say is: ’Be’ ‘It Happens.’

You are limiting Allah (swt) Ability to fit in with your beliefs!

As I said this is in Alam al Ghayb – The facts are these:

1) While on Earth Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) ate food like any mortal.

2) Romans/Jews did not kill him.

3) Allah (swt) raised Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) to Himself, body and soul.

4) Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is in Heaven now in Allah (swt)’s care.

How Allah (swt) is maintaining him? That’s up to Allah (swt) as He is the Provider of all human needs.

Refer to the following ayah:

*So We said: O Adam! This is an enemy to you and to your wife; therefore let him not drive you both forth from the garden so that you should be unhappy; [20:117]

Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor bare of clothing; [20:118]*

If Allah (swt) has ordained that Hz. Adam (as) and his wife (ra) will not be hungry; the same can apply for Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum.( For us this was while they were in Heaven but for Ahamdis this was in Mesopotamia)

5) He will descend to Earth when Allah (swt) Will it.

The exact state of the life of Prophet Isa ibn Maryam (as) after the Allah (swt) chose to raise him to Himself is obviously from amongst the knowledge of the Ghayb ‘unseen’…..and that knowledge of the ‘unseen’ is known to none save Allah (swt).

If the knowledge of the exact physical condition of the Hz. Isa ibn Maryam (as) after he was raised by Allah (swt) was important for the guidance of mankind to the Straight Path of Allah, surely Allah (swt) and His Last and Final Prophet (saw) would have made it known to the believers!

Since this was not told we leave it as is and entertain so speculations or wild guess works.

But you are constrained by statements of MGAQ :–

God has revealed to me in this special inspiration that Maseeh Ibne Marym (Jesus) is dead - (Tauzeeh-e-maram, Roohany Khazaaen, vol.3 p.402)

I have been informed about the grave of Jesus (in Kashmir). And I have been informed by holy Quran and God’s revelation to me about the death of Jesus –** Roohany Khazaen, vol. 18, p 358, 361
**

Brother psyah’s efforts to convince you with all the evidences he can muster are falling on deaf ears and closed minds because the information MGAQ received is via his “WAHI” – Naturally No Ahamdi will go against the “WAHI” of MGAQ, understandably so.

But Brother psyah’s efforts are not in vain, I am sure just like me many other viewers have benefited by the information given by him.

If there are any markets where Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is in heaven then his must walking around the markets too. That is if there are markets there in the first place. :)

I don’t see any shirk here at all. Do you think it is beyond Allah (swt)’s ability to keep anybody alive without food forever? Please don’t put conditions on Allah’s (swt) ability?

The exact state of the life of Prophet Isa ibn Maryam (as) after the Allah (swt) chose to raise him to Himself is obviously from amongst the knowledge of the Ghayb ‘unseen’…..and that knowledge of the ‘unseen’ is known to none save Allah (swt).

If the knowledge of the exact physical condition of the Hz. Isa ibn Maryam (as) after he was raised by Allah (swt) was important for the guidance of mankind to the Straight Path of Allah, surely Allah (swt) and His Last and Final Prophet (saw) would have made it known to the believers!

Since this was not told we leave it as is and entertain so speculations.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

The fact is the two verses when compared you can clearly see that we are being asked to consider RasoolAllah (SAW) as being killed or slain and we are being asked to consider Isa (AS) to have eaten food ... In both verses we are being asked to consider OTHER prophets than them to have come and gone, BUT note ... not all of them. Additionally ... come and gone can mean come and gone by dieing, but it can also mean come and gone in whatever way they have been stated in authentic traditions to have come and gone - i.e. Ascension/Translation ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I see you as a cult, very self-centred, very insignificant in world affairs be they spiritual or temporal.

Message of Islam is very simple and clear so that it could be understood by everyone. It doesn’t need deciphering or pseudo rational interpretations to arrive on fundamentals of Beliefs.

We go for the obvious meaning first as Allah made it easy for people to not only recite it, but to understand its meaning as well.
Allah said: “And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)? (Qur’an 54:17)

It is Jewish trait to look for hidden or allegorical meanings and twisting them to suit their desired agenda.
*
“As-Suddi (one of the earliest and greatest commentators of the Qur’an) said regarding the verse ‘Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price’: Some Jews used to write a book from their own whims and sell it to the Arabs, saying that it is from Allah, just to obtain a small price.”* *(Tafseer at-Tabari: 2/270, Maktabah Ibn Taymiyyah)
*

“They are a group of Jews, that invited to misguidance with falsehood and by lying about Allah…it is narrated from Ibn Abbas رضي الله عنهما (the greatest commentator of the Qur’an) that the verse ‘Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah’, they are the Jewish rabbis, Sa’eed and Qatadah also said it refers to the Jews.” (Tafseer Ibn Kathir: 1/149-150, Dar al-Hadith)

No Muslim after Prophet Muhmmad (saw) claimed to receive Wahi - only imposters did so,

Can you name me on Prophet who wrote books? That too, with tons of contradictions within them?

*
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding*. Al Imran: ayah 7

Jews rejected Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) because they are haughty people. They rejected Prophet Muhammad (saw) for the same reasons.

We reject claims of MGAQ because he is miles away from the Criteria Prophet Muhammad (saw) has given to recognise Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) and Mahdi (ra).

You are as far Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) as North Pole is from South Pole.

On this very thread I can show you and Bigboi were very aggressive and nearly name calling – Show me on this thread where brothers psyah, shardmanny or me have been impolite to you guys. Whereas it was you guys were getting a bit personal.

Every religion has criteria to meet to be accepted part of that faith; Ahmadis are following a new prophet completely against the ethos of Islam.

Nobody has pushed you guys out; it’s you guys who have opted out and yet want to be counted in.

In Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) on own time and that of the Companions (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) rejected the false claimants of prophet hood and fought them till they were defeated.

You are right Islam doesn’t teach anyone to attack others physically, those zealots who do that are wrong. And this is not acceptable.
Anybody who meets the criteria of a Muslim can go to Hajj.

Ahmadiyat has been around hundred years plus – If it was a true faith, Allah (swt) would have aided it to be dominant over others by sheer force of its truthfulness.

In fact Ahmadiyat has been uprooted from Islamic lands and has taken refuge in the country whose faith MGAQ claimed have destroyed! Do you see the irony?

Do I sense sarcasm here from – *“the way they have lived their lives ? oh okai :).. * “

They are our role models for Belief and the way they conducted themselves – If you are insidiously implying about riding camels, using swords and living in tents – then you are wrong, as the Noble Prophet (saw) loved positive progress, all the modern progress is based on progress and research made by Muslims.

Yes, *“they were stopped to go to hajj, they were stopped to preach, they were stopped to pray.”
*
Since they were on the right faith and with Allah’s (swt) blessing and help they overcame all the obstacles and succeeded beyond anyone’s imagination.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I have not brought any ridiculous allegations against MGAQ; I have given you reference and you trying to explain it means that you have accepted what I had stated. You don’t have to be embarrassed about his statement.

It is very relevant to the topic at hand; Ahmadi very pretentiously claim to be very rationalists but when it comes explaining various statements of MGAQ, rationality goes out of the window in wink of an eye.

All verbal somersaults are done to explain the unexplainable statements.

Popat at the end I going to give you one more statement of MGAQ, let’s see if you can explain it rationally. I’ll leave that to the last.

How do know you that Heaven is not a physical place? Wow this is news to us.

So Ahmadis take Heaven to be a spiritual experience only?

In my earlier post I had shown you, which you confirmed that Adam (as) and his wife were not in Heaven but Mesopotamia (present day Iraq). And that Mr. Iblis was ‘bad guy’ in the same neighbourhood!

Then can you explain why Hz. Adam (as)and his wife were sent to Earth. Wasn’t Mesopotamia on Earth to begin with?

But Satan caused them both to stumble therein, and thus brought about the loss of their erstwhile state. And so We said: "Down with you, [and be henceforth] enemies unto one another; and on earth you shall have your abode and your livelihood for a while!" 2:36 Muhammad Asad

But Satan caused them both to slip by means of it and drove them out of the state in which they were. And WE said, `Go forth hence; some of you are enemies of others and for you there is an abode in the earth and a provision for a time.' 2:36 *Sher Ali – Ahmadi translation.
*

Popat you claim to be a rationalist but here your claim is exposed as mere posturing.

Kashf is a spiritual experience something abstract or intangible.

Now please use your rationality and explain to us how something physical/ tangible can appear from something intangible.
Your rationality cannot explain it.

If you claim to be a miracle, then I may say ok.

Now apply the same principle to Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) in Heaven eating and living!

This is the reason I brought this statement of MGAQ – to see your rationality – no other motive.

Popat at the end I going to give you one more statement of MGAQ, let’s see if you can explain it rationally. I’ll leave that to the last.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

My apologies if you are getting that impression, but we have a problem here.

The Blessed Quran is the words uttered by Allah Almighty. The Quran can only be understood by adhering to the following criterion:

First of all Quran explains itself

Secondly we use the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to understand the Quran

Thirdly we use the Ijma As-Sahabah

Forthly, Qiyas and Ijtihad – Here we can use rationality and logic as useful tools

Criteria to Understanding Hadith is:

One must be well versed with the Quran

Secondly One must be well versed with Seeerah of the Prophet (saw)

Thirdly One must know and understand in context in which the Prophet said or acted in certain fashion

Forthly we must understand how the blessed Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all) understood the hadith - we use the Ijma As-Sahabah on hadith too.

Anything against and besides the above is mischief and in manifest error.

Read my previous post here:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/562810-details-of-interpreting-verses-from-the-quran-and-obvious-blunders-9.html#post8995857

With above principles and conditions the Blessed Quran can be interpreted correctly.

But we have problem when in discussion with Ahmadis:

Ahmadis believe that MGAQ received WAHI from Allah (swt), which MGAQ claimed to be on par with the Quran!!!

This claim is a great profanity/ blasphemy to Muslims enough to be declared out of Islam.

"I say with swearing upon God that I believe in these inspirations in the same way as I believe in Quran and other books of God. And just as I consider Quran undoubtedly and surely the book of God, similarly I believe that that Wahi (revelation) which descends upon me is the word of God."( Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Roohany Khazaen, Vol.22, .220

And I place my belief in the Ayat (verses) of the Holy Quran, the same way,without a jot of difference, I believe in that clear, and apparent Wahi of God which came to me; whose truth has been unravelled to me through His continuous tokens. And I can swear this standing in Baitullah (holy Kabah)that the holy revelation which descend upon me is the word of the same God Who sent down His Word on Hazrat Musa (Moses), Hazrat Isa (Jesus) and Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (saw)."( Ek-Ghalati-Ka-Izala, P. 8)

“This Divine conversation which is held with me is certain. If I doubt it for a moment, I become an infidel and my hereafter be destroyed. The word which descends on me is certain and absolute. As a person cannot doubt the sun and its light, having seen the sun and the sunlight, the same way, I cannot place doubt in that word which descends upon me from Allah and I have the same faith in it as in God’s book. It is possible that up to a certain time, mistakes may be committed by me in interpreting God’s word at certain places, but it is not possible that I doubt that (this) is not God’s word.”**(Tajjaliat-e-Ilahi, P. 20, Rabwah)
**
"I say with swearing upon God that I believe in these inspirations in the same way as I believe in Quran and other books of God. And just as I consider Quran undoubtedly and surely the book of God, similarly I believe that that wahi which descends upon me is the word of God." (Haqeetqatul Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.220)

“I have similar faith in my Wahi as on Holy Quran and Torah.”(Arba’een No.4, Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.454)
“and the Word of God descended so much on me that if it is collected it will not be less than 20 parts.” (Haqeeqatul Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.407)

MGAQ claimed he Humanity needed Wahi continuously for need of spiritual development – He claimed that religion without wahi is “Satanic religion and not a divine one”.

*“How absurd and false it is to believe that after the Holy Prophet (Muhammad) the door of the divine revelation has been closed forever and that there is no hope of it in the future till the Day of Resurrection! Can a religion having no direct trace of Almighty God be called a religion? Say, by Almighty God, that in this age there is no one more fed up than myself with such a religion! I name such a religion as ‘Satanic religion and not a divine one. I believe that such a religion guides towards Hell and keeps one blind in life.” *(Zamima Braheen-e-Ahmadiyah Part V, Roohani Khazain, Vol.21, p354)

See how appropriate is the following blessed ayah:

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! [3:78]

So Ahmadis interpret the Quran in light of WAHI received by MGAQ!!!

MGAQ also rejected all the authentic ahadith which did not match up with his Wahi.

"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that Wahi which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. Rest of the Hadith, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol.19 p.140)

This is completely at variance to Islamic Beliefs.

That’s reason you were feeling what you felt. Your interpretation of the Quran is completely different from that of Muslims. That’s the difficulty we are having of understanding each other.

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Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

i am going to open up various threads on the issues you raised. I m also going to open up thread on the 2 verses ive been debating about. Im not letting go these 2 verses. Your questions will be answered, ibn sadique. Meanwhile, inbox me your age. Your replies always amaze me in a very sad way! Im very curious to know how old you are.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Now to the statement of MGAQ which I promised you post at the end.

Qayyum-ul-Almeen (Allah the Almighty) is such a large existence which has infinite hands and infinite feet and each lung is in such abundance that it cannot be counted and it has infinite length and breadth. This great body also has wires like octopus that are spreading to all corners of plane of existence and are working as a force of attraction. These are the parts which can be called the universe.

When The Sustainer of the world makes a full or partial move, it is imperative for the lungs too move in harmony and He will implement all his matters through these lungs and not by any other mean... Thus, indeed it is the true and it is completely true that all universes exists like parts of that large body and that is why He is called Sustainer of the worlds. Just like spirit is sustainer of body He is Sustainer of all the creation. If it was not so system of the universe would have derailed.** (Tauzeeh Maram 76)
**

The reason is only to test your rationality to explain it. No Prophet has described Allah (swt) as such. You claim to be rationalist and logical. Using these useful tools try to explain and make me understand what he is trying to say - If this statement is result of Kashif and has a higher meaning and is beyond you to explain, then now worries. Just wanted to see how your rationality works.

I am going abroad again for week or so and if the thread is still active then I may participate.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Popat that's your privilege - that doesn't mean I have the time to waste to repeat myself all over again. My answers are going to be the same. So most certainly I'll give them amiss and you can claim a walkover. Or I'll refer/redirect you this thread. Don't worry about my age just stay amazed leave the sadness out.

I sympathise with your frustrations but can't dance to your tune. Your Interpretation of Quran is at variance with that of Muslims - We use Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad but you use MGAQ's Wahi as well. For us that is not acceptable. Herein lies the problems.

You to your beliefs and we to ours - the two cannot meet.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

It is essential that Muslims stand to preserve the Qur'an - not just in transmission, but in establishing a framework to continie the preservation of the authentic meanings as well.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

the explaination that all food is sent by heavens is not the focus of this exchange since i cant imagine a time when asking for what becomes 'simple food' as negative . see here:
(Remember) when Al-Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "O 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Îsa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allah, if you are indeed believers."

further proof it was extraordinary event expected:
They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to satisfy our hearts (to be stronger in Faith), and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

keywords for the miracle asked
rabbana anzil AAalayna maidatan mina a*l*ssamai

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

theres a clause being pushed subtly "quran only"
its a strategic ploy

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

...And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.’ (An Nahl 16:44)

‘This is why the Messenger of Allah said,

‘The Sunnah was a revelation from Allah just as the Qur'an, although it is not recited as the Qur'an is recited.’

O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not.

applies to Hadiths aswell

posted this as context for qadianis who may not understand the need to bring iman to the sunnah

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace shardmanny

I wonder what our friend Mr.Popat thinks of this verse:

Surah 3 Verse 37

So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance and caused her to grow in a good manner and put her in the care of Zechariah. Every time Zechariah entered upon her in the prayer chamber, he found with her provision. He said, “O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?” She said, “It is from Allah. Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account.”

Now the question to ask is … Did the food literally come down from heaven for her? Yes … say they Muslims … Will he try to argue that she (AS) was being obtuse - some generous person gave her the food?

The Iranians made this … :slight_smile:

Go to 44 min to 46 mins

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

All mortals eat, and Allah does not eat. Mortals must keep eating to be alive in their physical bodies. Once a mortal stops eating, He is dead. Same thing applies for Jesus a.s as well. He a.s was a mortal as well. The very fact that he is not eating now makes him the like of God. I'm not concerned with if hes eating now .. what hes eating.. you must provide evidence from Quran that he a.s is still eating. Your answer of God must be providing him food is very weak!. That is your speculation. No evidence whatsoever.

[QUOTE]
You are limiting Allah (swt) Ability to fit in with your beliefs!

As I said this is in Alam al Ghayb – The facts are these:

1) While on Earth Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) ate food like any mortal.

2) Romans/Jews did not kill him.

3) Allah (swt) raised Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) to Himself, body and soul.

4) Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is in Heaven now in Allah (swt)’s care.

How Allah (swt) is maintaining him? That’s up to Allah (swt) as He is the Provider of all human needs.
[/QUOTE]

1) he 'ate' food like any mortal. He a.s is not eating food anymore. If he a.s is NOT eating food. He is either 1) dead or 2) the like of God.

2) Yeah, nobody killed him. Passing away of prophets is mentioned in 2 ways. Jesus a.s passed away from a natural death, not by getting killed.

3) No. Allah did not. You have no evidence for this.

4) He a.s must be in heaven with all the prophets who died. He does not need to be alive to be in heaven.

That's quite a statement ! that its upto allah how hes maintaining him. You have a belief which is not approved by Quran. Allah is provider of all human needs. Food is human's number 1 need. But hes not eating anymore. Are you saying God alone is paak from eating but Jesus a.s also shares this attribute of Allah ?

Refer to the following ayah:

[QUOTE]
*So We said: O Adam! This is an enemy to you and to your wife; therefore let him not drive you both forth from the garden so that you should be unhappy; [20:117]

Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor bare of clothing; [20:118]*

If Allah (swt) has ordained that Hz. Adam (as) and his wife (ra) will not be hungry; the same can apply for Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum.( For us this was while they were in Heaven but for Ahamdis this was in Mesopotamia)
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, all of this happened on Earth. Adam was a messenger.. if there was no humans on earth, who was he a messenger to? what message did he bring ? But hey, thats not important. Our souls are created by Allah almighty, our bodies are given on Earth. Whatever your belief of Adam a.s is , he was not given the Earthly body when he was in heaven ( talking from your belief ). Once you're given an earthly body, you are bound to have the needs of what your body requires. Oxygen, food, water etc..

[QUOTE]
5) He will descend to Earth when Allah (swt) Will it.

The exact state of the life of Prophet Isa ibn Maryam (as) after the Allah (swt) chose to raise him to Himself is obviously from amongst the knowledge of the Ghayb ‘unseen’…..and that knowledge of the ‘unseen’ is known to none save Allah (swt).

If the knowledge of the exact physical condition of the Hz. Isa ibn Maryam (as) after he was raised by Allah (swt) was important for the guidance of mankind to the Straight Path of Allah, surely Allah (swt) and His Last and Final Prophet (saw) would have made it known to the believers!
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You are hiding behind the belief of Allah doing anything. I NEVER said he cannot. I never did. All i'm saying is that Allah has set some standards for himself that he himself do not break. taking someone to heavens alive bodily is something Allah has never done and will never do. Verses show that Allah does not literally send down a book.. one verse also shows that you cannot put a ladder to heaven and grab anything you like. Verses tell you that Allah is paak from doing all this. Allah is Qaadir and qadeer over all that he wishes. But His laws are absolute. If he says he will not do a certain thing, believe me, He is certain in his promises. He will not do it. Allah says i'm the one who gives u birth from a single drop of sperm, raise you in a weak condition, give you strength and cause your body to go back to weak condition again. That is the sunnat of Allah. Allah says that whomsoever he grants a long life, he causes his condition to revert to that of a child ( of weak condition ), that is the sunnah of Allah. There are verses in Quran which shows that Allah does have the capability of doing anything but he will simply not do it because its not His sunnah for his creation. Verse which goes something like, if he wishes to make everyone believer, he can, but he will not do it. There are other verses as such but i'll leave that up for now.

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Since this was not told we leave it as is and entertain so speculations or wild guess works.

But you are constrained by statements of MGAQ :–

God has revealed to me in this special inspiration that Maseeh Ibne Marym (Jesus) is dead - (Tauzeeh-e-maram, Roohany Khazaaen, vol.3 p.402)

I have been informed about the grave of Jesus (in Kashmir). And I have been informed by holy Quran and God’s revelation to me about the death of Jesus –** Roohany Khazaen, vol. 18, p 358, 361
**

Brother psyah’s efforts to convince you with all the evidences he can muster are falling on deaf ears and closed minds because the information MGAQ received is via his “WAHI” – Naturally No Ahamdi will go against the “WAHI” of MGAQ, understandably so.
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Hazrat Ahmad (as) as I believe was a true prophet of God, whose advent was prophesised by Muhammad PBUH himself. God informed him that Jesus a.s which was sent 2000 years ago is no more alive. He a.s is dead. Yes, he did say his grave is located in Kashmir. Now, you see so many people doing research on this regard.

Hz Ahmad (as)'s revelation on anything ( but for now, we're talking about the death of Jesus a.s ) does not contradict Islam. Yes, some beliefs contradict the mullah version of Islam. But he a.s has explained his stance and his beliefs based on Quran and ahadith. Whether mullahs accept it or not is not the concern. Whats more important is that he a.s explained the verses and beliefs in which muslim are in great confusion.

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But Brother psyah’s efforts are not in vain, I am sure just like me many other viewers have benefited by the information given by him.

If there are any markets where Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is in heaven then his must walking around the markets too. That is if there are markets there in the first place. :)
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:) ok.. so no markets in heaven, no earthly food in heaven. He a.s is neither walking with his body in markets, neither is he eating earthly food.

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I don’t see any shirk here at all. Do you think it is beyond Allah (swt)’s ability to keep anybody alive without food forever? Please don’t put conditions on Allah’s (swt) ability?
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Allah says that their(prophets) bodies were not made as such that required no food. Meaning, they do require food. Get this straight. Allah says their bodies require food.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

As I said to you Mr.Popat … Isa (AS) does not have to eat to be alive … You are placing power in the food … Whereas it is established 'aqeedah of Muslims that all power belongs to Allah (SWT) … This world is merely a deception … It shows us patterns for us to assert that the knife cuts, but really Allah (SWT) cuts. Food does not sustain, Allah (SWT) is The Sustainer, which means if He so Wills He can sustain in whatever ways He so chooses other than food.

A man came to the prophet Muhammad (SAAW) and said “I will not tie my camel and trust Allah”, the prophet Muhammad (SAAW) said " tie it and trust Allah."This Hadith does not indicate any pre-requisite for trusting Allah (SWT). It does not, therefore suggest that somehow there is a link between tying the camel (an action ) and putting one’s trust in Allah (SWT). However the Hadith conveys an important lesson to all of us: that while trust in Allah (SWT) is absolute being independent of what we do, it is our responsibility to act on what we intend to accomplish. In this case tying the camel was a right thing to do, if the person feared that the camel would run away. Therefore he should have taken the precaution regardless of his trust in Allah (SWT). Tying the camel does not take away from his trust in Allah (SWT), nor does it become a requirement for trusting Allah (SWT). Regardless of how he had acted the outcome would remain in accordance with the will of Allah (SWT). This understanding is in accordance with the above verses of the Quran, where the concept of absolute trust in Allah (SWT) is emphatically reiterated.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I'm not embarrassed by anything. Stop these lies please!. When have I claimed to be a 'rationalist' ?Its not the first time you're saying this about me. I have no made any such claim. Relax! .. I'm questioning based on Quran and hadith. If you got Quran and hadith to back up your statements, im interested in reading those. Show me from Quran how one can be raised to heaven bodily alive. Show me from hadith where its said Jesus a.s is alive. Show me from quran or hadith if he a.s is eating. Show me from Quran or ahadith how you can remain alive without food. All these questions will never be answered by you. NEVER. You know why? because you're afraid you will hurt the feelings of those muslims that share the same beliefs as you. Allah says in Quran, and the verse goes something like.. you tell me to believe something which my forefathers never believed in ? and another goes like.. we will continue to believe what we have seen our forefathers believe in.. these were the words of kuffars in the times of Muhammad PBUH. You just dont want to see the truth, even if its from Quran. So much of being Muslim, alright!

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How do know you that Heaven is not a physical place? Wow this is news to us.

So Ahmadis take Heaven to be a spiritual experience only?

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heaven is an ultimate place where humans go after they die. You dont go there when you're alive. Period.

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In my earlier post I had shown you, which you confirmed that Adam (as) and his wife were not in Heaven but Mesopotamia (present day Iraq). And that Mr. Iblis was ‘bad guy’ in the same neighbourhood!

Then can you explain why Hz. Adam (as)and his wife were sent to Earth. Wasn’t Mesopotamia on Earth to begin with?

But Satan caused them both to stumble therein, and thus brought about the loss of their erstwhile state. And so We said: "Down with you, [and be henceforth] enemies unto one another; and on earth you shall have your abode and your livelihood for a while!" 2:36 Muhammad Asad

But Satan caused them both to slip by means of it and drove them out of the state in which they were. And WE said, `Go forth hence; some of you are enemies of others and for you there is an abode in the earth and a provision for a time.' 2:36 **Sher Ali – Ahmadi translation.
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**
You know , Quran is Allah's words. It is OK to read 4/5 verses before and 4/5 verses after. Its not going to harm you. It will benefit you. Try it sometimes.

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[2:30] And when thy Lord said to the angels: ‘I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth,’ they said: ‘Wilt Thou place therein such as will cause disorder in it, and shed blood? — and we glorify Thee with Thy praise and extol Thy holiness.’ He answered: ‘I know what you know not.’
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'i am about to place a vicegerent(khalifa) in the earth' . He placed him as khalifa on earth. Then satan caused him to make a mistake and Allah says you people will be enemies of each other and there is a certain time for which you (humankind) will live on earth, and will keep Earth as an abode. Do you see this verse? allah placed him on earth first , then everything else happened. He was not literally thrown to earth. He was born on earth. But hey, thats my belief. Believing this version or your version is a mere belief which has nothing to do with what future has to hold. However, the life of Jesus a.s is important. For His life determines what path is right. His life determines the future of Islam.

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Popat you claim to be a rationalist but here your claim is exposed as mere posturing.
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I did not claim any such thing. I'm questioning based on Quran and hadith.

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Kashf is a spiritual experience something abstract or intangible.

Now please use your rationality and explain to us how something physical/ tangible can appear from something intangible.
Your rationality cannot explain it.

If you claim to be a miracle, then I may say ok.

Now apply the same principle to Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) in Heaven eating and living!

This is the reason I brought this statement of MGAQ – to see your rationality – no other motive.

Popat at the end I going to give you one more statement of MGAQ, let’s see if you can explain it rationally. I’ll leave that to the last.
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That is a wrong approach. In one hadith, sahaba (r.a) saw Gabriel in form of a man. Asked Muhammad PBUH of what tawheed is, whats imaan and other questions as such. Angels are made of light. But such an event happened. The way you explain this will be the way i will explain the experience Promised Messiah (as) went through. Had the experience of Promised Messiah(as) gone against the teachings of Quran, then you had the right to ask.. otherwise, no point. You explain to me from Quran or hadith if one can be living in heaven alive without food and will be sent down to earth bodily alive. Any example you could think of?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

That’s what im saying. Having absolute trust in Allah is necessary. However, we must strive ourself first and then leave it on Allah. Muhammad PBUH was right. Tie your camel and then trust Allah. It’s like you’re telling me we as humans dont have to do anything and Allah will do everything for us. Allah says that he does not change the condition of people, till they change it themselves. Ofcourse, its the Allah who will change it.. but we must do our part as well. We cannot expect the farms to grow wheat or rice by itself through the power of Allah. Yes, ofcourse Allah make it happen. We cannot expect to survive if we don’t eat. It’s like saying “allah will keep me alive if he wills”. You must eat, do your part in surviving and leave it entirely on to Allah.

What i’m saying is, you do your part first, then trust Allah!. Prepare for exams and then trust Allah that he will get you good grades etc..

Allah is saying that we did not send any prophet whose body did not require food. Yes, food is essential part of surviving. If someone no longer eats food and is still alive, then thats shirk, because only Allah is capable of doing that. Not any ordinary human being. We all have the continuous need of water,food, oxygen etc. How is Isa a.s any different human than us ?

The hadith your provided favors my point of view. Show me from anywhere in quran or hadith that he is eating. Show me that he is doing the part from his side to survive. Food is essential. No living creature is immune from it.