Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

the explaination that all food is sent by heavens is not the focus of this exchange since i cant imagine a time when asking for what becomes 'simple food' as negative . see here: (Remember) when Al-Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "O 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Îsa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allah, if you are indeed believers."

further proof it was extraordinary event expected: They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to satisfy our hearts (to be stronger in Faith), and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

keywords for the miracle asked rabbana anzil AAalayna maidatan mina a*l*ssamai

Provide us sustenance. Sustenance from food. The provider of sustenance is God alone. The way he provides sustenance is through food. That is what the verse is talking about. That was the duaa of Jesus a.s. Unless you tell me how I'm wrong. In which case, tell me how it should be understood. Thank you.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

That’s what im saying. Having absolute trust in Allah is necessary. However, we must strive ourself first and then leave it on Allah. Muhammad PBUH was right. Tie your camel and then trust Allah. It’s like you’re telling me we as humans dont have to do anything and Allah will do everything for us. Allah says that he does not change the condition of people, till they change it themselves. Ofcourse, its the Allah who will change it.. but we must do our part as well. We cannot expect the farms to grow wheat or rice by itself through the power of Allah. Yes, ofcourse Allah make it happen. We cannot expect to survive if we don’t eat. It’s like saying “allah will keep me alive if he wills”. You must eat, do your part in surviving and leave it entirely on to Allah.

What i’m saying is, you do your part first, then trust Allah!. Prepare for exams and then trust Allah that he will get you good grades etc..

Allah is saying that we did not send any prophet whose body did not require food. Yes, food is essential part of surviving. If someone no longer eats food and is still alive, then thats shirk, because only Allah is capable of doing that. Not any ordinary human being. We all have the continuous need of water,food, oxygen etc. How is Isa a.s any different human than us ?

The hadith your provided favors my point of view. Show me from anywhere in quran or hadith that he is eating. Show me that he is doing the part from his side to survive. Food is essential. No living creature is immune from it.

The point is that food is not necessary to survive … Allah (SWT) is sufficient. And all of this talk is based on an Earthly existence. Yet, we are talking about a heavenly one. One can just as easily argue that when Sayyidina Khalid ibn Walid (RA) took poison He should have died, but his faith in Allah (SWT) was strong enough to overcome the apparent nature of this world.

                                                                    Once someone asked Jesus (AS), “How arey ou able to walk on water?”
                    Jesus replied, “With certainty.”
                    Then someone said, “But we also have certainty!”
                    Jesus then asked them, “Are stone, clay,and gold equal in your eyes?”
                    They replied, “Certainly not!”

Jesus responded, “They are in mine.”
(ahmad)

http://sandala.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Walk-on-Water.pdf

The point being one needs to look beyond the apparent cause and effect process to realise the true power of Iman …

If the camel was not tied up it didn’t mean that it would get taken or walk away … And if was tied up it does not mean that it would not get stolen or manage to get free …

Likewise we eat … But we should not believe that eating is necessary for surviving. It is the normal thing to do. But the life of Isa (AS) was far from normal and his being alive today is not normal, yet why are we trying to ask questions such as food? When we have established that there is nothing normal about this account of Isa (AS)?

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

The point is that food is not necessary to survive … Allah (SWT) is sufficient. And all of this talk is based on an Earthly existence. Yet, we are talking about a heavenly one. One can just as easily argue that when Sayyidina Khalid ibn Walid (RA) took poison He should have died, but his faith in Allah (SWT) was strong enough to overcome the apparent nature of this world.

Food is necessary to survive. For a human, with earthly body, the requirements do not change whether the human is an ordinary human like me or you.. or a messenger of Allah. Allah is the provider of everything. He tells us to utilize His sources and the knowledge given to mankind. We must do our part and the whatever is the result will be coming from the Lord. There is no basis to argue about Hz Khalid ibn Walid (RA) case. Imaan on Allah does not require from you that you do not attempt on anything. It does not require you to leave everything on Allah and you stay at home. You sow the seeds and then pray to Allah to make it a fruitful tree. Study to get better grades, Allah will help you. Earn Halal, Allah will put barkat in your rizq. Eat food and then pray to Allah to keep you healthy etc.

Once someone asked Jesus (AS), “How arey ou able to walk on water?”
Jesus replied, “With certainty.”
Then someone said, “But we also have certainty!”
Jesus then asked them, “Are stone, clay,and gold equal in your eyes?”
They replied, “Certainly not!”
Jesus responded, “They are in mine.”
(ahmad)

http://sandala.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Walk-on-Water.pdf

The point being one needs to look beyond the apparent cause and effect process to realise the true power of Iman …

If the camel was not tied up it didn’t mean that it would get taken or walk away … And if was tied up it does not mean that it would not get stolen or manage to get free …

Likewise we eat … But we should not believe that eating is necessary for surviving. It is the normal thing to do. But the life of Isa (AS) was far from normal and his being alive today is not normal, yet why are we trying to ask questions such as food? When we have established that there is nothing normal about this account of Isa (AS)?

I do not see the point of the example you are giving above. As I said earlier, the power of Imaan is tested through how long you can be steadfast, it is tested by loss of wealth, loss of the life of someone dearer to you. Iman does not require you to deliberately eat poison and wait for Allah to cure you without taking any precautionary measures.

In the hadith you mentioned above, if the camel was tied and then it had been stolen or ran away, the reason could not have been that because the sahabah did not tie the camel, thats why it got stolen/ran away.. but just the luck, or thats what Allah intended, despite the human effort of tying it.

In the same way, if you do not eat, your health will eventually get in bad condition. Doctors will tell you the reason behind your condition is the lack of food. Nothing else. If you are eating, doing everything possible to maintain your health and even then you get sick, then the doctor give you the reason of lack of food in your system, but rather something else.

Food is essential. Allah says in the verse of Quran that we did NOT send any messenger whose bodies did not require food. Therefore, a human, even if its a prophet is bound to eat, for His body requires food to sustain himself..and ofcourse, the sustainer is Allah alone. He provides food, and the human survive. The only time a human is not required to eat,breathe, drink is when he is dead.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Food is necessary to survive. For a human, with earthly body, the requirements do not change whether the human is an ordinary human like me or you.. or a messenger of Allah. Allah is the provider of everything. He tells us to utilize His sources and the knowledge given to mankind. We must do our part and the whatever is the result will be coming from the Lord. There is no basis to argue about Hz Khalid ibn Walid (RA) case. Imaan on Allah does not require from you that you do not attempt on anything. It does not require you to leave everything on Allah and you stay at home. You sow the seeds and then pray to Allah to make it a fruitful tree. Study to get better grades, Allah will help you. Earn Halal, Allah will put barkat in your rizq. Eat food and then pray to Allah to keep you healthy etc.

I do not see the point of the example you are giving above. As I said earlier, the power of Imaan is tested through how long you can be steadfast, it is tested by loss of wealth, loss of the life of someone dearer to you. Iman does not require you to deliberately eat poison and wait for Allah to cure you without taking any precautionary measures.

In the hadith you mentioned above, if the camel was tied and then it had been stolen or ran away, the reason could not have been that because the sahabah did not tie the camel, thats why it got stolen/ran away.. but just the luck, or thats what Allah intended, despite the human effort of tying it.

In the same way, if you do not eat, your health will eventually get in bad condition. Doctors will tell you the reason behind your condition is the lack of food. Nothing else. If you are eating, doing everything possible to maintain your health and even then you get sick, then the doctor give you the reason of lack of food in your system, but rather something else.

Food is essential. Allah says in the verse of Quran that we did NOT send any messenger whose bodies did not require food. Therefore, a human, even if its a prophet is bound to eat, for His body requires food to sustain himself..and ofcourse, the sustainer is Allah alone. He provides food, and the human survive. The only time a human is not required to eat,breathe, drink is when he is dead.

Food is not essential to survive many years ... Allah. (SWT) has demonstrated that too .... You just need to be able to make the connection ... If you can accept that the camel can still be taken or if not tied the camel may still remain ... Then you have to admit that despite not eating Allah (SWT) is not compelled to end the life of such a person ... Allah (SWT) chooses and makes concession.

[shardmanny]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Peace shardmanny

I wonder what our friend Mr.Popat thinks of this verse:

Surah 3 Verse 37

So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance and caused her to grow in a good manner and put her in the care of Zechariah. Every time Zechariah entered upon her in the prayer chamber, he found with her provision. He said, “O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?” She said, “It is from Allah. Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account.”

Now the question to ask is … Did the food literally come down from heaven for her? Yes … say they Muslims … Will he try to argue that she (AS) was being obtuse - some generous person gave her the food?

The Iranians made this …

Go to 44 min to 46 mins

jazakAllah

the verse is amazing

[Mr.Popat]

Food is not essential to survive many years ... Allah. (SWT) has demonstrated that too .... You just need to be able to make the connection ... If you can accept that the camel can still be taken or if not tied the camel may still remain ... Then you have to admit that despite not eating Allah (SWT) is not compelled to end the life of such a person ... Allah (SWT) chooses and makes concession.

That is your own claim. In other words, you are totally ignoring what the verse is saying and coming up eith your own explanation that has no legs to stand on.
I explained to you how in the verse Allah says only he is paak from eating. Allah says Jesus a.s used to eat. The very fact that he used to eat and also that if he a.s IS alive, he must be God. That is exactly what Allah is saying. Jesus a.s used to eat but Allah does NOT eat.
This is how it is then:
God does NOT require food and is all living
JESUS a.s is not eating and is alive without food.
If you have thid belief then you r committing shirk!
Sorry buddy, but even a 4th grader would understand this.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

That is your own claim. In other words, you are totally ignoring what the verse is saying and coming up eith your own explanation that has no legs to stand on. I explained to you how in the verse Allah says only he is paak from eating. Allah says Jesus a.s used to eat. The very fact that he used to eat and also that if he a.s IS alive, he must be God. That is exactly what Allah is saying. Jesus a.s used to eat but Allah does NOT eat. This is how it is then: God does NOT require food and is all living JESUS a.s is not eating and is alive without food. If you have thid belief then you r committing shirk! Sorry buddy, but even a 4th grader would understand this.

Peace Mr.Popat

Eating is a sign of mortality. But not eating is not a sign of immortality ... This is because we do not say that "food" sustains "us" we say that "Allah Sustains us" ... So as angels do not eat ... yet their worship is the vehicle of the sustenance that is provided to them by Allah (SWT) ... food is the normal vehicle of sustenance provided by Allah (SWT) to mankind ... However, Allah (SWT) can Sustain us in whatever way He so chooses ...

Eating is a sign of mortality but your logic is poor - a person not eating is merely a sign that another way is used to sustain that person.

As I said ... don't put power in the food ... put it in Allah (SWT) and you won't go wrong.

Just to clarify I'm not even arguing at this stage whether Isa (AS) is eating or is not eating ... Merely talking about the source of nourishment and where to attribute that power ...

Shirk is actually giving "food" the power that only Allah (SWT) is due ... The power of Giving Sustenance.

[kchughtai]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ as usual, you taking the discussion in another dimension and totally ignoring what was the original point.

here is the glimpse of what you stated

[QUOTE]

... So as angels do not eat ...
As I said ... don't put power in the food ... put it in Allah (SWT) and you won't go wrong.

Just to clarify I'm not even arguing at this stage whether Isa (AS) is eating or is not eating ... Merely talking about the source of nourishment and where to attribute that power ...

Shirk is actually giving "food" the power that only Allah (SWT) is due ... The power of Giving Sustenance.

[/QUOTE]

Day aur dil un ko jo na day mujh ko zubaaN aur

Bhai mere, the fact of the matter is that

1) Allah said in His holy book that He has sent prophets/messengers from among the people. They were all humans, lived like them. No angel or any other non-human being was sent as prophet/messenger to the masses

2) since they were humans and have mortal bodies, they needed food to survive. Allah made their bodies this way. So bringing any miracle or so will not remotely help you here

3) Isa(as) was specifically mentioned in this context. and the statement is 'The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger...*They both used to eat'.
* a) Here 'Mazi Istamrari' has been used that means past tense that used to happen repeatedly. When a normal day to day activity like eating is mentioned in past tense (mazi istamrari) then it clearly means that it is not happening now. so Isa(as) is not alive
b) Since it is not happening any more and Isa (as) has been collectively mentioned with his mother in this case then he is not alive since we all know that Mary(as) is not alive

4) So what are the implications if Isa (as) is alive with earthly body without food for so many years:
a) He is not a messenger perhaps more than a messenger since
** 21:8)And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever.

**
We are not regarding food as sustainer or God but when Allah Himself has stated that messengers were humans and their bodies needed food then how can you bypass this.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

^ as usual, you taking the discussion in another dimension and totally ignoring what was the original point.

here is the glimpse of what you stated

Day aur dil un ko jo na day mujh ko zubaaN aur

Bhai mere, the fact of the matter is that

1) Allah said in His holy book that He has sent prophets/messengers from among the people. They were all humans, lived like them. No angel or any other non-human being was sent as prophet/messenger to the masses

2) since they were humans and have mortal bodies, they needed food to survive. Allah made their bodies this way. So bringing any miracle or so will not remotely help you here

3) Isa(as) was specifically mentioned in this context. and the statement is 'The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger...**They both used to eat'. **a) Here 'Mazi Istamrari' has been used that means past tense that used to happen repeatedly. When a normal day to day activity like eating is mentioned in past tense (mazi istamrari) then it clearly means that it is not happening now. so Isa(as) is not alive b) Since it is not happening any more and Isa (as) has been collectively mentioned with his mother in this case then he is not alive since we all know that Mary(as) is not alive

4) So what are the implications if Isa (as) is alive with earthly body without food for so many years: a) He is not a messenger perhaps more than a messenger since **21:8)And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever.

** We are not regarding food as sustainer or God but when Allah Himself has stated that messengers were humans and their bodies needed food then how can you bypass this.

Peace kchughtai

I like this verse ... It clarifies things even more ...

1) Allah (SWT) has drawn a clear distinction between eating - which was used for Isa (AS) and dying which was expressed regarding Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ... in this verse as two separate things ... pointing to the two separate verses ...

2) And by the way Allah (SWT) Himself has not stated "their bodies needed food" - He stated that "their forms ate food" - and as I said earlier "To eat or to have eaten IS a form of mortality and dependence, but not eating is not a sign of immortality ... it is merely a sign that they were sustained in a different manner" and this is directly pertaining to the Earthly existence of the anbiya when they were amongst us.

3) All prophets except a few have died, but all will die - a few thousand years even if experienced whilst living in this world is not a sign of immortality ...

4) Even if Allah (SWT) sustains life forever it does not make that life divine ... but here Allah (SWT) has appealed to us that those who we saw die - was proof for their human nature and those who we didn't see die ... we saw them eat so that was still proof for the human nature ...

This is all this verse means ...

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

To view a death - is to positively conclude their mortality
To view someone eating - is to positively conclude their mortality
Not viewing their death - is NOT a positive concluding of their divinity, merely it is the absence of being able to conclude their mortality
Not viewing their eating - is NOT a positive concluding of their divinity, merely it is the absence of being able to conclude their mortality

We have neither seen angels eat nor die - yet we do NOT conclude they are divine ... we merely conclude they are sustained in a different manner and are hence not human.

If somebody didn't eat yet died to leave a corpse or if someone ate but was not seen to die - in either case it is a sign of their HUMAN nature.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Eating is a sign of mortality. But not eating is not a sign of immortality ... This is because we do not say that "food" sustains "us" we say that "Allah Sustains us" ... So as angels do not eat ... yet their worship is the vehicle of the sustenance that is provided to them by Allah (SWT) ... food is the normal vehicle of sustenance provided by Allah (SWT) to mankind ... However, Allah (SWT) can Sustain us in whatever way He so chooses ...

Eating is a sign of mortality but your logic is poor - a person not eating is merely a sign that another way is used to sustain that person.

As I said ... don't put power in the food ... put it in Allah (SWT) and you won't go wrong.

Just to clarify I'm not even arguing at this stage whether Isa (AS) is eating or is not eating ... Merely talking about the source of nourishment and where to attribute that power ...

Shirk is actually giving "food" the power that only Allah (SWT) is due ... The power of Giving Sustenance.

You're fooling yourself. Let me try it again. ( Sorry, if you don't get my point at first time as i'm more fluent in french )

The hammer has hit right on the nail.

Read the verse again.

[QUOTE]
5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. *And his mother was a truthful woman. *They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
[/QUOTE]

You say something and do not back up your statement. In the verse, Allah is giving the example of the act of 'eating' as not being immortal. In other words, someone who 'eats' cannot be considered God. Allah is comparing himself with a human being here. Allah does not require food to be all living, whereas, for a human, it is a requirement. I'm not talking about whether he ate/ or used to eat. What I'm getting your attention towards is that Allah is all living without food, whereas Jesus a.s required food to sustain himself.

Allah says that there has not been any prophet whose body did not require food. Which means, every prophet was in need of food. It is also stated in the verse that all the prophets were men (humans), and they needed food. Now, this is an established fact that Allah put forward in front of us. Humans needs food.

What you are doing is shirk. What i'm doing cannot be considered shirk at all. If you think what i'm doing is shirk then you really need to look up for the basic definition of shirk. You are telling me that i'm doing shirk by putting power in 'food' that only Allah is due. This is what you call shirk ? I've told you earlier, I dont think it was hard to understand. Use the hadith you posted yourself. Tie your camel then trust Allah. Eat your food which is given by Allah and then trust Allah that he will not get you ill by it. Who is giving power to 'food' ? Really? that's very ridiculous to think that i mean that. Food is the 'source' provided BY Allah to sustain us. Everything is FROM Allah !

However, lets see what you're doing.. and lets see how that qualifies for shirk.

Allah does not eat. Yet he is alive.
Jesus does NOT eat. Yet he is alive.

Verse tells us that Jesus a.s cannot be God because he used to eat. You are telling me .. no, the verse is nauzubillah wrong and that Jesus a.s CAN still be living without food. Therefore, you are associating partner with Allah. You also are denying this such an easy verse.

Verse 21:08 tells us that no prophet was given a body that required no food. Every prophet required food. Hence, making them mortal. Jesus too needed food like them. He a.s too ate food like them. As kchughtai mentioned. If we think Jesus a.s to be alive for a minute, the conclusion should be :

1) Since all mortals need food as a source to sustain themselves, Jesus a.s is someone other than human/mortal.. Perhaps some other kind of creature, surely not a human. ( refer to 21:08, where it says all prophets required food , and they were all men/humans ).

2) Jesus a.s was not a prophet (nauzubillah). For him to be a prophet, he needs food, as his body is not made as such that does not require food ( refer back to 21:08 again ).

3) Jesus a.s is God (nauzubillah). For God does not eat. Jesus a.s also does not eat. God is alive without the need of food ( refer back to verse 5:75, ), Jesus a.s is alive without food (your claim). Therefore God or the like of God.. shirk shirk !

It's not just about eating. Its about NOT eating and still be alive. A prophet cannot be eating and can still be alive. That is shirk.

Hope you get it this time around.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Jinns and angels are not sent to humankind as messengers. Messengers have always been from amongst mankind. Allah sustain angels and jinns in a different way. Nothing surprising, as in Quran humans despite being prophets are required to eat. No human being is immune from it. It illogical to give an example of jinns and angels for a messenger who was a human being like you and me, that had same needs as you and me.. food, water, oxygen etc. Humans prophets = human attributes ... prophet with Godly attributes = Either God, or not a prophet, or not a human. ( could be angel, jinn or any other form , but not human)

As far as sustaining oneself in a different manner.. then they cannot be considered humans. Allah sustain humans with the source of food. Verse which was discussed earlier ( quoted by shardmany ) is a good verse to refer. Jesus dua was to sustain them from the food which would be provided by Allah. If someone is getting sustained somehow else then you're not human. Sorry, but thats just the reality.

Also, your objection about how in case of Muhammad pbuh's verse, the term passed away is used but for Messiah a.s the example of eating was used. My friend !!!, both of the cases are different. Muhammad PBUH was NOT called as a son of God or God. Messiah son of Mary (as) is still called as son of God or God himself. There is a difference in both the cases. However, both the verses announces death of prophets. In case of Jesus a.s, Allah used the example of eating so that Allah could tell Christians that anyone who 'eats' cannot be God. And since eating is an attribute of humans, therefore proves that a human cannot be God. You must see the logic of both of these verses. You are telling me on the other hand, that He a.s IS a human being IS still living and is NOT eating..thereby nauzubillah disproving what Allah has said in the verse as an example, where Allah is saying that He a.s used to eat.. whoever eats is mortal..and whoever is mortal dies. Whereas, Allah does not eat.. is immortal because he does not eat..and never dies because he is immortal.

Again, angels and jinns way of sustenance is not the question here. We are keeping prophets and angels separate. They both are different creatures. Humans need food and thats an established fact.

Jummah tul wida Mubarak to you. Pray for yourself that may Allah enable you to see the truth of Quran which has always been hidden from you.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

You say Allah (SWT) sustains Jinns in a different way ... How so? According to you Jinns are just naughty human lads ... And let's say He does sustain them in a different way ... Does it mean He never Sustains us in a different way to what we are normally sustained by?

I can cite a few examples of humans who have lived longer durations and humans who have eaten naught but survived.

No you see ... You keep saying that they require to eat ... i'm saying that the truth is they can be sustained any way Allah (SWT) so Wills .... Yet He Willed them to eat ... You are saying they had to ... I am saying they didn't have to ... But that is what was done ... Time showed us it was important to demonstrate that prophets are human with human needs.

I wonder that you are so easily caught up making up that small things look like shirk .... I fear that if and when Dajjal comes you will be dazzled with his magic and become convinced of he claims to divinity ... Me on one hand is the other hand will just conclude he is Dajjal ... Because he will have form ... And God is not contained in the boundary and the filth of the human body ... So Pure is He.

And you are not reading what I write at all ... I did not say that the term "passed away" is used in one verse. It is in both verses ... But the correct meaning from Qad Khalat in both cases is ..." look in to the history of your prophets who have come and gone" ... For some reason you want this term to give extra weight to the two verses ...

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

You say Allah (SWT) sustains Jinns in a different way ... How so? According to you Jinns are just naughty human lads ... And let's say He does sustain them in a different way ... Does it mean He never Sustains us in a different way to what we are normally sustained by?

We are talking about prophets here. Do you know of any prophet sent to mankind who was jinn ? Angels and jinn is out of the question here. They are not worshiped. Jesus a.s is worshiped as God. All prophets sent to mankind were 1 ) men 2) were bound to human needs.

Jinns and angels have different life form. Had they been worshiped, Allah would have compared himself with them too. But the verse in comparing Jesus a.s who was a human with God himself. Eating is an attribute limited to all living creatures on earth who are bound to die. Your reasoning is poor.. and so are your questions.

[QUOTE]
I can cite a few examples of humans who have lived longer durations and humans who have eaten naught but survived.

No you see ... You keep saying that they require to eat ... i'm saying that the truth is they can be sustained any way Allah (SWT) so Wills .... Yet He Willed them to eat ... You are saying they had to ... I am saying they didn't have to ... But that is what was done ... Time showed us it was important to demonstrate that prophets are human with human needs.
[/QUOTE]

Allah says prophets require food to sustain themselves ! You are telling me Allah can sustain in any way he wills. Yes, but then whoever he sustain without food can not be considered a human being and/or a messenger. They HAVE to eat. Eating is their requirement. I'm showing you verse. Allah says we did not create their bodies that required no food. What does that tell you? It shows us they were like us.. it shows us they needed food, and since food is associated with humans in the verse, humans who does not require food are either 1) dead, or 2) not humans at all, but rather some other creature... perhaps jinns or angels, (since they do not eat , but surely not humans).

[QUOTE]
I wonder that you are so easily caught up making up that small things look like shirk .... I fear that if and when Dajjal comes you will be dazzled with his magic and become convinced of he claims to divinity ... Me on one hand is the other hand will just conclude he is Dajjal ... Because he will have form ... And God is not contained in the boundary and the filth of the human body ... So Pure is He.
[/QUOTE]

:S i'm sorry, what ?
You calling associating partners with Allah 'small things' ? You are associating an attribute Allah is limiting to himself with Jesus a.s as well. Yes, no other 'human being' but Jesus a.s. Angels and jinns are out of question my friend. They were never sent to mankind as messengers. We're talking about messengers here. Allah himself is giving an example of eating as someone who is mortal, and human who doesnt eat eventually dies. Food is necessary.

I do not associate anyone with Allah. Not by tongue, and not by any kind of beliefs. I dont know what was your reasoning of talking about Dajjal here. Leave it up to me what i will do when Dajjal comes. Dont just assume what i'll do.

[QUOTE]
And you are not reading what I write at all ... I did not say that the term "passed away" is used in one verse. It is in both verses ... But the correct meaning from Qad Khalat in both cases is ..." look in to the history of your prophets who have come and gone" ... For some reason you want this term to give extra weight to the two verses ...
[/QUOTE]

yeah. Verse about Muhammad PBUH, prophets before him have been told to passed away by either getting killed or by dying a natural death. Keep in mind, Muhammad PBUH is not called upon beside Allah. Jesus a.s's case, eating was specifically mentioned to show that humans who are mortals cannot be called God because they eat and die. God does not eat and does not die.

Look in to the history of your prophets who have come and gone. Also mention how Allah is explaining the 'come and gone' in the verse of Muhammad PBUH. 1) by getting killed 2) by dying a natural death. No other way of coming and going is mentioned. If Jesus a.s is an exception in this verse, then look at the verse about Jesus a.s

Passed away term is used in that too. Prophets like him have passed away before him. We know all prophets before Jesus a.s died. Honestly, where's the rocket science in this.

You are arguing unnecessarily.

[shardmanny]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

1) Allah said in His holy book

what does 'maidatan mina alssamai', as found in Al-Maidah (5) 112/114, mean to you?

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

We are talking about prophets here. Do you know of any prophet sent to mankind who was jinn ? Angels and jinn is out of the question here. They are not worshiped. Jesus a.s is worshiped as God. All prophets sent to mankind were 1 ) men 2) were bound to human needs.

Jinns and angels have different life form. Had they been worshiped, Allah would have compared himself with them too. But the verse in comparing Jesus a.s who was a human with God himself. Eating is an attribute limited to all living creatures on earth who are bound to die. Your reasoning is poor.. and so are your questions.

Allah says prophets require food to sustain themselves ! You are telling me Allah can sustain in any way he wills. Yes, but then whoever he sustain without food can not be considered a human being and/or a messenger. They HAVE to eat. Eating is their requirement. I'm showing you verse. Allah says we did not create their bodies that required no food. What does that tell you? It shows us they were like us.. it shows us they needed food, and since food is associated with humans in the verse, humans who does not require food are either 1) dead, or 2) not humans at all, but rather some other creature... perhaps jinns or angels, (since they do not eat , but surely not humans).

:S i'm sorry, what ? You calling associating partners with Allah 'small things' ? You are associating an attribute Allah is limiting to himself with Jesus a.s as well. Yes, no other 'human being' but Jesus a.s. Angels and jinns are out of question my friend. They were never sent to mankind as messengers. We're talking about messengers here. Allah himself is giving an example of eating as someone who is mortal, and human who doesnt eat eventually dies. Food is necessary.

I do not associate anyone with Allah. Not by tongue, and not by any kind of beliefs. I dont know what was your reasoning of talking about Dajjal here. Leave it up to me what i will do when Dajjal comes. Dont just assume what i'll do.

yeah. Verse about Muhammad PBUH, prophets before him have been told to passed away by either getting killed or by dying a natural death. Keep in mind, Muhammad PBUH is not called upon beside Allah. Jesus a.s's case, eating was specifically mentioned to show that humans who are mortals cannot be called God because they eat and die. God does not eat and does not die.

Look in to the history of your prophets who have come and gone. Also mention how Allah is explaining the 'come and gone' in the verse of Muhammad PBUH. 1) by getting killed 2) by dying a natural death. No other way of coming and going is mentioned. If Jesus a.s is an exception in this verse, then look at the verse about Jesus a.s

Passed away term is used in that too. Prophets like him have passed away before him. We know all prophets before Jesus a.s died. Honestly, where's the rocket science in this.

You are arguing unnecessarily.

Please don't ask me if I know of any Jinn sent to mankind as a prophet again ... when you hold that Jinn are naughty human lads ...

Regarding the Attributes of Divinity - when I wrote it earlier I was half asleep ... I meant to say you are so easily swayed by certain simple things as being Divine Attributes that if you were to see Dajjal you would be unable to work out whether his claims of Divinity are true or not ...

You are still singing the same tune regarding Qad Khalat - I've highlighted in red the part that you cannot explain from the verse ... The only thing in that verse that is said about Isa (AS) is his eating ... nothing else ... now drop the subject and move on ... You will have to find another "proof" to show Isa (AS) has died, because this one is not it ...

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

What do you have objection with ?

Humans can live without food ?
Qad khalat in the verses does not mean passed away? ( in the verses, dead is the most suitable meaning, and hence be understood as that ). Objection ?
Verse does not mean all prophets ?

Tell me what is your objection ? and ill refer you back to my posts.

The verses is very clear in this manner. Prophets died before Muhammad PBUH and prophets died before Jesus a.s.

Thanks.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

What do you have objection with ?

Humans can live without food ? Qad khalat in the verses does not mean passed away? ( in the verses, dead is the most suitable meaning, and hence be understood as that ). Objection ? Verse does not mean all prophets ?

Tell me what is your objection ? and ill refer you back to my posts.

The verses is very clear in this manner. Prophets died before Muhammad PBUH and prophets died before Jesus a.s.

Thanks.

Please don't kid yourself Mr.Popat and please don't take me for a fool either ... This verse does not in any way prove Isa (AS) has died let's move on ... I have no intention of re-answering your questions for the fifth time ... All of the deeper issues and contentions are secondary ... the primary issue is a fail ... which is the verse does not even mention Isa (AS) has died ... nor does it even suggest that he will die - like the other verse does regarding Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ... all of this other conversation was your tactic on diffusing clarity ... However, from that discussion we have established that you do not share our 'aqeedah regarding the power of Allah (SWT) and putting power in the means of Allah (SWT) ...

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@psyah

Please don't kid yourself Mr.Popat and please don't take me for a fool either ... This verse does not in any way prove Isa (AS) has died let's move on ... I have no intention of re-answering your questions for the fifth time ... All of the deeper issues and contentions are secondary ... the primary issue is a fail ... which is the verse does not even mention Isa (AS) has died ... nor does it even suggest that he will die - like the other verse does regarding Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) ... all of this other conversation was your tactic on diffusing clarity ... However, from that discussion we have established that you do not share our 'aqeedah regarding the power of Allah (SWT) and putting power in the means of Allah (SWT) ...

You're kidding yourself. Tell me which book are you talkin about in which our stance is that jinn are naughty human lads? tell me and ill explain you what it means. But generally speaking, jinns in forms of humans STILL need food. Jinns were not sent to humankind as messengers. You know what i'm going to do now?. I'll open up a thread just on this topic. You are welcome to contribute if you like, if not, dont worry about it. I have already understood your beliefs. Belief of shirk is how i see it. Yes, our aqeedah does not match because my aqeedah tells me to stay away from an atom's weight of shirk.

Jesus a.s is mentioned along with prophets who passed away before them. If you insist passing away in the verses mean 'came and gone', then that means some prophet must be alive prior to jesus a.s too. C'mon buddy, I thought i wouldnt have to keep repeating myself and thought you'd use your brain for once.

[psyah]

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

@Mr.Popat

You're kidding yourself. Tell me which book are you talkin about in which our stance is that jinn are naughty human lads? tell me and ill explain you what it means. But generally speaking, jinns in forms of humans STILL need food. Jinns were not sent to humankind as messengers. You know what i'm going to do now?. I'll open up a thread just on this topic. You are welcome to contribute if you like, if not, dont worry about it. I have already understood your beliefs. Belief of shirk is how i see it. Yes, our aqeedah does not match because my aqeedah tells me to stay away from an atom's weight of shirk.

Jesus a.s is mentioned along with prophets who passed away before them. If you insist passing away in the verses mean 'came and gone', then that means some prophet must be alive prior to jesus a.s too. C'mon buddy, I thought i wouldnt have to keep repeating myself and thought you'd use your brain for once.

Jinns need food when in the state of human form? Reference would be good. Ok, what about if angels take human form, will they need food?

If you are true about staying away from shirk ... Then you will never say that food is necessary for survival ... You will only say that Allah (SWT) directly provides life and death and nourishment and the world of means is an accidental occurrence.