Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

i am not able to make definitive statements from this verse, although i do feel since we believe him to be alive 'he is the last of them' and he is the one who made the prayer, down to you can refer to the earth, the earth only, as a start point and heaven, there is denial clauses for the disciples but not him (except if they refused after the warning and then he (alaihis salam) refused), he did not disbelieve after it, the maidah can still be his but the sustenance part of the prayer can be detached from the maidah part aswell.

if you appreciate that we believe Isa Alaihis Salam to be returning you will see the beauty of this part, ie look who made this prayer and look how Allah SWT answered his messengers prayer:
"...a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."
your right it does say us but theres release clauses (refusal, disbelief, death) for the others but not Isa AS. so us eventually becomes 1 person only

however i am not going to push this on you or argue with you over its interpretation since the variables are too many.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

what i wanted to know was do you believe heavenly food can be sent down and ate on earth? or is it metaphoric for something else? obviously if you believe it can be then there is the exceptional possibilty of a chosen one (al-masih) in heaven

there is the blunderous possibility that you deny Isa ibne Maryam alaihis salam is Al-masih. do you affirm Isa son of Maryam is al-masih?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace psyah,
Sorry but you need education in Quran. You are making this mistake over and over. You do not see the interpretation that you make is going against the fundamentals of Quran, Islam and Shariyah.

If 'Qad Khalat' was the term you want to argue then I have given you 2 verses in which this term is used, and its used for people/nations that have passed away. There is no metaphorical meaning to it. Qad khalat does mean death/passing away in all of the verses of Quran. Show me any verse in which it is taken as metaphorically? Qad khalat term is used in both of the verses in which I'm arguing. 5:75 as well as 3:145. Are you taking passing away/death as metaphorically? if so, may I ask how ? any other verse you can provide in which it is meant metaphorically? Also, how can you use death/passing away as metaphorically anyway ?

Here's yet another verse which uses Qad Khalat, and meaning taken is passed away/dead.

[QUOTE]
7-38 He will say, ‘Enter ye into the Fire among the nations of Jinn and men who passed away before you.’ Every time a people enters, it shall curse its sister (people) until, when they have all successively arrived therein, the last of them will say of the first of them: ‘Our Lord, these led us astray, so give them a double punishment of the Fire.’ He will say, ‘For each preceding party there shall be double punishment, but you do not know.’
[/QUOTE]

And yet another verse :

[QUOTE]
46-18 But the one who says to his parents, ‘Fie on you both! do you threaten me that I shall be brought forth again, when generations have already passed away before me?’ And they both cry unto Allah for help and say to him: ‘Woe unto thee! believe; for the promise of Allah is true.’ But he says, ‘This is nothing but the fables of the ancients.’
[/QUOTE]

I can give you more, but I hope this should be sufficient. So, Qad Khalat does mean death/passing away. You are to show me a verse in which Qad Khalat is used which does not mean passing away/death but rather means 'gone' and 'gone' in a sense that it will return to earth. You are just playing with words. You have no possible explanation to what I have consistently been asking.

Now, you are telling me that the verse dont say 'all' prophets have died.

Refer back to both of these verses again.

3-144 And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

5-75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

first verse quotes says Messengers before Muhammad have passed away either by getting killed or by dying a natural death. Jesus a.s came right before Muhammad PBUH, some 600 years ago. Theres no mention of another possibility of passing away. Killed or natural death.

Second verse states that Messiah was only a messenger, messengers like him have passed away. Now, what needs more clarification in this ? Qad khalat is used in both verses, both to mean passing away. You are wrong when you say it means 'gone'.. since right after passing away, in 3-144, Allah explains 2 ways of passing away. Both ways are death !

Allah has made the circle tighter by first saying Messengers before Muhammad PBUH have passed away.. which include everyone before Him. No exception. Jesus a.s was 'before' Muhammad PBUH. Then in 5-75, cleared any doubts by combining jesus a.s with prophets before him and called him dead along with all prophets before him.

If you insist it is not to be taken as all prophets, then the burden of proof lies on you to show me any messenger BEFORE Messiah son of Mary alive. Since even in 5-75 there is no mention of all prophets dead, but we know no prophet is alive before Jesus a.s. So kindly, please show me any prophet alive from Quran which is before Isa a.s

Thank you.

ps: just thought i'd share this verse as well , because you think prophets CAN live without food. Here you have it.

21-8 And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever.

this verse also means that if you are to eat, then you will die. If you do not eat, then you are either dead or you are God. Because Allah alone is to live forever.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I see the beauty of this verse even after having an unshakable belief of Jesus a.s death.

If you read 3/4 verses before and 3/4 verses of the topic you are talking about , you would know that Jesus a.s asked allah to provide food for them, not by going to heavens but rather Allah says he will send down food. His prayer was in a way asking for food and making that food a way of sustaining them. As we know,f ood provide sustenance. We ask our Allah the same way. Many of our duaas are like that. We ask for increment in rizq and then we say provide us Rizq and sustain us with it as you are the best of sustainer. It does not mean to keep us alive for 2000 years or anything like that, nor did Jesus a.s mean this at all. Allah says in the next verse that I will send down food for you and if then they disbelieve after, He will punish them. Keep in mind, the whole topic surrounding it is about food and how Allah is the sustainer. It could very well mean that people who do believe, Allah will sustain them with food and people who wont be under the wrath of Allah.

There is no question about Jesus a.s living till this long for this duaa. The duaa was to keep them all sustenance with food. Not without it.

Hope I was clear enough.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

All food is sent by heavens. The lamb or whichever animal it was, in the time of Abraham AS was also sent by heaven. Quran was sent down from heaven too. The wrath of Allah people before us experienced was sent from heaven too. What this means is that Allah commands whatever he needed to do to angels...and angels do the task assigned to them by Allah on Earth. Allah does his work and we see his work happening on Earth. This is what it means by coming from heavens. Nothing is thrown in Earth from Allah which is coming from heaven literally.

Isa ibn e Maryam (as) is al-masih. I accept Him as a true prophet of Allah. The signs foretold in Jew scripture has come to fulfillment metaphorically in the personality of Isa ibn e Maryam (as). This is why Masih to come is given the same title as Isa and given the sift of Ibn e Maryam. Muhammad PBUH also said that my ummah will resemble jews. Now you decide. You want to be like Jews , I cant help you with that.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

First of all ... I think you do not know the difference between literal and metaphor ... Secondly inshaAllah I will show you once again that "Qad Khalat" means what I said ... "passing away" ...

Now you use a metaphor for death all the time - it the phrase "passing away" - this phrase is itself metaphoric ... !!! Literally "passing away" is "coming and the going" ... The literal meaning of passing away if NOT death - that is the metaphoric meaning of "passing away" ...

Now this is an English-to-English metaphor/literal exchange ... but for some reason you are treating the phrase "passing away" as a literal synonym of "death" ... it is not. Please get this right first.

Here is the reference from thesaurus.com

[quote]

Main Entry: pass away  [pas, pahs] Show IPA
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: die
Synonyms: bite the dust, buy the farm, cash in one's chips,cease living, croak, decease, demise, depart, die,drop, expire, kick the bucket, meet one's maker,pass on, perish, succumb
Antonyms: be born, live

Main Entry: disappear
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: vanish; cease
Synonyms: abandon, abscond, be done for, be gone, belost, be no more, be swallowed up, cease toexist, clear, come to naught, decamp,dematerialize, depart, die, die out, disperse,dissipate, dissolve, drop out of sight, ebb, end,end gradually, escape, evanesce, evanish,evaporate, exit, expire, fade, fade away, flee,fly, go, go south, leave, leave no trace, melt,melt away, pass, pass away , perish, recede,retire, retreat, sink, take flight, vacate,vamoose, wane, withdraw
Antonyms: appear, arrive, come in

Main Entry: elapse
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: go by; slip away
Synonyms: expire, flow, glide by, lapse, pass, pass away ,pass by, roll by, roll on, run out, transpire,vanish

[/quote]

Now let's analyse the Qur'an to see how it uses the term "Qad Khalat" in the sense where it cannot mean death

Qad Khalat min qablikum sunanun - 3:137 ... ways of life that have passed away

wa ..Qad Khalat min qablihimul muthalaat - 13:6 ... yet have come to pass, before them, many exemplary punishments

SunnatAllahillati qad khalat fee 'abdihi - 40:85 ... The Sunnat of Allah has been that with His Servants

Now in each of these verses the things that are doing the "passing away" are ... A way of life, punishments, and a pattern of events

None of these thing can die ... literally ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Psyah,

You are deliberately misusing your ‘knowledge’ on ‘qad khalat’. Let me demonstrate how:

You pointed out some objections regarding use of ‘Khala / khalat’ for the death of a person and said something similar:
**

  1. “I have shown that it had been used for things in Quran that cannot die”
  2. “If death is to be indicated ‘mawt’ should have been used”**

Let me first of all, bring what Arabic Dictionary tells us. I am not able to upload images in this section. so I will have to write it down.

**‘Khala fulanun iza Maata’ (Lissaan ul Arab)
‘Khala arajulu Aye Maata’ (Aqrrabil Muarid vol 1)
**similar meanings have been stated by Taajul Uroos - exposition of Qamoos vol 10

**So in short, when ‘Khala’ is used for a person, it means he died.

**Let me explain this point using ragtag language urdu that I know better. Arabic is much deep and vast language than urdu and saying that for death, only ‘Mawt’ should have been be used is simply ridiculous.

Here we go with urdu.

1) Woh guzar gaya 2) woh intiqaal kar gaya 3) woh faut ho gaya 4) wo mar gaya
5) Us ko maut nay aan daboocha etc.
All these expressions without any doubt, communicate the death of that person although ‘guzarna’, ‘intiqaal’ , ‘faut hona’, does not mean death if you look at them in isolation.

Now** ‘marna’** is very clear in its meaning but if I say **‘Us ki to mat hi mari gayi hai’ **and ‘Us kay deedon ka paani mar gaya hai’. Here ‘Marna’ has been used for abstract things that don’t die literally. Should we then start doubting the meaning of ‘Mar gaya’ when used for a person?

Again** ‘Mawt’ **- ‘Hamarey aqdaar ki mawt waqey ho chuki hai’
Now should we start doubting that ‘Mawt’ is not expressive enough for death of a person it has been used for other immaterial things.

Back to Arabic. Psyah, in the light of your two highlighted objections, how would you rate the usefulness of ‘mawt’ for the death of a person when
it has been used for sleep as well. Remember, the prayers that muslims read before going to bed and after getting up.

**In the first prayer on sleeping, ‘Ammutu’ (I die) is used for sleep and ‘Ahyaa’ (I become alive) for getting up has been used.

In the 2nd prayer on waking up, ‘Ahyaana’(who revived us to life) (i.e., woke us up) and ‘bada ma Amatina’ (after giving us death) (i.e., after giving us sleep)
**
There are other similar sort of prayers that use such expressions. here is one link
http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/what-are-prayers-should-be-read-going-bed-and-after-waking

hmmm so even **‘mawt’ **has become ‘uncertain’ in communicating its meanings. Is there anything certain in your world?

the 1 and 2 objections are nullified.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace kchughtai

All of this was unnecessary. Qad Khalat can mean death, but it can also mean something or someone that/who has gone by … Passed by …

This is the wisdom I see in that verse … Because it includes the prophets who have died and those who have gone but not died … Had it specifically meant only those prophets who had died then it could have been clearer than Qad Khalat … Again even then if this was used it would still be acceptable …

As well as this the verse does not say all prophets …

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

One verse takes prophets before Muhammad PBUH into consideration. Other verse includes Jesus a.s with all the prophets who passed away. Your reasoning of 'come and gone' is plain non-sense. You are not seeing the whole context of the verse.

Jesus a.s was no more than a messenger and messengers like him have passed away. Either consider messengers before Jesus a.s alive or consider them all dead including Jesus a.s You are making an exception for Jesus a.s alone and taking everyone else as 'come and gone' to mean dead, which is not fair of an interpretation from you side.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Both of these verses uses the term qad khalat. If you insist it does not say all prophets, and creating possibility of only Jesus a.s alive, then in the verse of Jesus a.s 5-75 , prophets before Him have been called passed away too. If you create a possibility of Jesus a.s alive because it does not say 'all' prophets in 3-144, then you must create an exception for someone who is still alive before Isa a.s as in 5-75 the word 'all' is not used either. But we do know theres no prophet alive before Jesus a.s.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

One verse takes prophets before Muhammad PBUH into consideration. Other verse includes Jesus a.s with all the prophets who passed away. Your reasoning of 'come and gone' is plain non-sense. You are not seeing the whole context of the verse.

Jesus a.s was no more than a messenger and messengers like him have passed away. Either consider messengers before Jesus a.s alive or consider them all dead including Jesus a.s You are making an exception for Jesus a.s alone and taking everyone else as 'come and gone' to mean dead, which is not fair of an interpretation from you side.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Popat – You verse you quoted proves what brother psyah has been stating all throughout this thread.

Here Allah (swt) is stating that all the Messengers (asa) to Humanity were HUMANS – proof that is that they ATE FOOD and were all MORTALS (they will taste death when Allah (swt) has ordained for them).

Allah (swt) did not sent Angels to Mankind as messengers

Read the following from Tafseer Ibn Kathir:

Only Human Messengers have been Sent

(Is it a wonder to people that We have sent Our Inspiration to a man from among themselves (saying): "Warn mankind…‘’) and He said, (And We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad) any but men, whom We sent Revelation. So ask Ahl Adh-Dhikr, if you know not.). meaning, (ask) the people of the previous Books, were the Messengers that were sent to them humans or angels If they were angels, then you have the right to find this strange, but if they were human, then you have no grounds to deny that Muhammad is a Messenger.

Allah says:* (And We sent not before you (as Messengers) any but men to whom We revealed, from among the people of townships. )* ﴿12:109﴾ and not from among the people of heaven as you say.‘’ It was reported by Mujahid from Ibn `Abbas that what is meant by Ahl Adh-Dhikr is the People of the Book. This is as Allah says:

(Say: "Glorified be my Lord! Am I anything but a man, sent as a Messenger’’ And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allah sent a man as (His) Messenger’') (17:93-94)

(And We never sent before you (O Muhammad) any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets.) (25:20)
(And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that did not eat food, nor were they immortals.)(21:8)

(Say (O Muhammad ): "I am not a new thing among the Messengers. '‘) ﴿46:9﴾,(Say (O Muhammad): "I am only a man like you. It has been revealed to me.'’) ﴿18:110﴾ Then Allah informs those who doubt that a Messenger can be a human to ask those who have knowledge of the previous Scriptures about the Prophets who came before: were their Prophets humans or angels Then Allah mentions that He has sent them, (with clear signs), meaning proof and evidence, and……………………

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Only Human Messengers have been Sent

Refer to the following ayahs when the angels visited Hz. Ibrahim (as) – clearly shows that angels do not eat:

11:69] And certainly Our messengers came to Ibrahim with good news. They said: Peace. Peace, said he, and he made no delay in bringing a roasted calf.

11:70] But when he saw that their hands were not extended towards it, he deemed them strange and conceived fear of them. . They said: Fear not, surely we are sent to Lut’s people.

Trait of Jews? Ahmadis keep hurling this taunt blindly without even referring to the relevant hadith, Which is as follows:

Abdullah bin Amarra relates that the Holy Prophet (SA) said ‘Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sects but my people will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the fire** except one**.

The companions asked. ‘Who are they O Messenger of Allah,’

Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’ Tirmidhi - Kitabul Eeman

The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah – MEANING WHO WILL NOT HAVE THE TRAIT OF JEWS

Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’

EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO FOLLOW THE SUNNAH OF THE BLESSED PROPHET (SAW) AND HIS BLESSED COMPANIONS (May Allah be pleased with all) AND NO ONE ELSE – no shadow/zilli/cloned/duplicate prophets

Apart from the above rest all will have traits of the Jews.

Take a good look in the mirror and smile you will see one smiling back at you! :slight_smile:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Prophet Muhammad (saw) was very precise and specific so that no imposter can succeed in fooling the people at large.

Hadhrat Abdullah bin Mas’ood (R.A.) says that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, “This world will not come to an end until one person from my progeny does not rule over the Arabs, and his name will be the same as my name.” (Tirmidhi)

Note: No Biralas Mughal - ethnicity of MGAQ

Other ahadeeth inform us that:

  • He will be tall
  • He will be fair complexioned
  • His facial features will be similar to those of Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam)
  • His character will be exactly like that of Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam)
  • His father’s name will be Abdullah
  • His mother’s name will be Aamina
  • He will speak with a slight stutter and occasionally this stutter will frustrate him causing him to hit his hand upon his thigh.
  • His age at the time of his emergence will be forty years
  • He will receive Knowledge from Allah.

Read more:

Imam Mahdi

Of course MGAQ has thrown all the above in waste bin without any respect to Prophet Muhammad’s (swt) words!

Popat I’ll just give you two ahadith:

bn Abbas said, “When Allah intended to raise 'Eisa to the heavens, he went to his companions … and 'Eisa ascended to the Heavens through an opening in the top of the house.”
(Ibn Abi Hatim 4/431 Hadith 6266, Ibn Kathir 2/449. Ibn Kathir graded it Sahih)

It is narrated from Ummul Momineen Safiya, may Allah be pleased with her, that when she visited Bait Al-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) and finished prayers in Al-Aqsa Mosque she climbed up to Mt. Olives and prayed there as well and said: ‘This is the mountain from where 'Eisa, may Allah bless him, was raised up to the Heavens.’ (Al-Tasrih bima Tawatar fi Nuzul Al-Masih Hadith 74 cf. Tafsir Fath Al-Aziz Surah 95)

Note: Ummul Momineen Safiya, may Allah be pleased with her is blessed Prophet’s (saw) wife!!

Of course MGAQ has thrown all the above in waste bin

They used to eat on Earth – Now Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is in Heaven – now he eats there.

Very simple point but you are constrained to get it. I am not confused

Hz. Isa Isa Ibn Maryum when on Earth ate food being a Human being – when he was taken up to Heavens he is provided sustenance just like Hz. Adam (as)and is wife ate food in Heaven – But you are constrained by your faith not to believe this.

Because ‘dead’ Hz. Isa Isa Ibn Maryum (as) leaves the way for imposters to claim his place - . Isa Isa Ibn Maryum (as) being alive is death-blow for Ahmadiyyat!!!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Popat Care to explain how the red ink seen in the vision of MGAQ really materialises in this World – either what you state above is true, that being so, MGAQ will be deemed to be a liar.

In a vision, I saw God in a visionary expression and I wrote many predictions; then I placed many papers before God, for his signature, so that he may confirm my demands. I saw that God wrote something and without hesitation put His signature in red ink.

At the time of signing he jerked the pen as they do when ink on the nib is excess and they throw it down.

I was very sensitive at that time that God was so kind to me that whatever I demanded He put His signature on that without any hesitation.

Then I awoke. At the time, (one of my disciples) Mian Abdullah Sinnori was with me in the room rubbing my feet. In his presence some drops of red ink fell on my clothes and on those of Abdullah.

It is strange to note that the time of pen's jerking and falling of red drops was the same without a slight difference. When the revelation ended, I actually discovered that our clothes were smeared red although we had no dye or anything else of a red colour with us. Abdullah still possesses those smeared clothes. (Haqiqatul Wahi p 255, Taryaqual-Qulub, p 62)

Of course you believe all above to be true.

Explain how something seen in vision materializes physically in this world! Or is it 'holy ink'? ;)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Bingo! ... Hence you are seeing that the term "qad khalat" is a flexible term ...

In verse 3:144

Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude

Meaning

many prophets have come and gone before him - didn't you see how they died or were killed, so if he died or was killed ...

In verse 5:75

Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Meaning

Many prophets have come and gone before him - didn't you see how they all needed to eat, well both his mother and and he needed to eat too ...

Here is the context in both verses ... that I have put in green ... The clause of the verse is governed by the phrase that follows ...qad khalat ...

In 3:144 verse Allah (SWT) is referring to how previous prophets had died (not all prophets just some previous ones) to cite an example from them and then the words came about his (SAW) death ...indicating that it will happen to him (SAW) and for the people to realise he is just a human prophet ... because humans die - to think him (SAW) greater than human is wrong.

In verse 5:75 Allah (SWT) is referring to how previous prophets ate food ... so why can they not view Isa (AS) as a human prophet because he too ate food ...and not to deify him ... Because humans eat ... not Allah (SWT).

My point was that Allah (SWT) could have said that Isa (AS) was caused to die ... but that was not said as the qualifying context ... instead "eating" was the chosen attribute of human quality - not the quality death ... to me this is because Isa (AS) has not died YET ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace,
I'm seeing a lot of dishonesty from your side. The verse DOES NOT contain 'many' prophets...

qad khalat as you also said CAN mean death. I am asking you how the same term cannot mean death in both of these verses? How does one 'come and go' from this world without dying ?

Your own meaning shows that just like how other prophets have 'come and gone' and you couldnt explain it in any different way than how it says in the verse, therefore you said 'didnt you see how they died or were killed'. This actually proves my point. Just like how prophets before Muhammad PBUH have 'passed away' or insist of taking its most literal meaning of 'came and gone', thats exactly how Muhammad pbuh have 'came and gone' too. *The 'passing away' is explained by ' so if he died or was killed . * Such an easy thing is not getting to you head or you're just pretending you're not getting it.

[QUOTE]
In verse 5:75

Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Meaning

Many prophets have come and gone before him - didn't you see how they all needed to eat, well both his mother and and he needed to eat too ...

Here is the context in both verses ... that I have put in green ... The clause of the verse is governed by the phrase that follows ...qad khalat ...
[/QUOTE]

Read the verse again !

Allah first says that Jesus was no more than a messenger. Messengers like him have passed away! Now, tell me what was the point of this ?? You are telling me only the example of eating is given by Allah, but do you not see the first part of the verse?? 'messengers like him have passed away' ! ! !

[QUOTE]
In 3:144 verse Allah (SWT) is referring to how previous prophets had died (not all prophets just some previous ones) to cite an example from them and then the words came about his (SAW) death ...indicating that it will happen to him (SAW) and for the people to realise he is just a human prophet ... because humans die - to think him (SAW) greater than human is wrong.

In verse 5:75 Allah (SWT) is referring to how previous prophets ate food ... so why can they not view Isa (AS) as a human prophet because he too ate food ...and not to deify him ... Because humans eat ... not Allah (SWT).

My point was that Allah (SWT) could have said that Isa (AS) was caused to die ... but that was not said as the qualifying context ... instead "eating" was the chosen attribute of human quality - not the quality death ... to me this is because Isa (AS) has not died YET ...
[/QUOTE]

Wait a minute!
you said 3:144 verse is referring to some prophets being 'dead' ? So, now passing away/ come and gone mean dead to you ? And excuse me for my question, but where did you get that it is saying some prophets died not all ? :S :S

verse 5:75 does not say how previous prophets used to eat food. It specifically says prophets like him have passed away. If you are adding Jesus a.s and His mother with prophets before him who used to eat food ( even if the verse is not including Jesus a.s and his mother with prophets who used to eat, though, not saying prophet didnt use to eat food, ), then you should add Jesus a.s with prophets who passed away as well. You are deliberately ignoring the first part of the verse.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

whoever eats food is a mortal then right ? ok, so Isa a.s is not eating food as he used to eat food. He no longer is eating food, making him immortal. Thats a reasonable conclusion then ?

QUOTE* (25:20)
(And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that did not eat food, nor were they immortals.)(21:8)
[/QUOTE]

Yep. They all used to eat food. Something they used to do, something that they no longer do anymore. If they still eat food, then they still walk in the markets.

Yep, exactly!. no messenger was created whose body did not need food, therefore food makes them mortal. But in case of Jesus a.s, he is no longer eating food, making him immortal. Do you see shirk ?

[QUOTE]

Trait of Jews? Ahmadis keep hurling this taunt blindly without even referring to the relevant hadith, Which is as follows:

Abdullah bin Amarra relates that the Holy Prophet (SA) said ‘Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sects but my people will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the fire** except one**.

The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,'

Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’ Tirmidhi - Kitabul Eeman

The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah – MEANING WHO WILL NOT HAVE THE TRAIT OF JEWS

Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’

EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO FOLLOW THE SUNNAH OF THE BLESSED PROPHET (SAW) AND HIS BLESSED COMPANIONS (May Allah be pleased with all) AND NO ONE ELSE – no shadow/zilli/cloned/duplicate prophets

Apart from the above rest all will have traits of the Jews.

Take a good look in the mirror and smile you will see one smiling back at you! :)
[/QUOTE]

:S sorry but what ?

Who is having jews trait ?? I do know this hadith. But whose having jews trait ? look at yourself and look at us after. You are rejecting someone on the basis of literal meaning of the coming of someone ure waiting for. Jews rejected Messiah for the very same reason. I need not to start telling you how you resemble exactly like jews. Not only this, there are many other resemblance with jews.. Please spare me this time. I can write you a long paragraph just on this, but please lets just let it go for now, ok ? :)

Yeah, everybody knows whose following the sunnah of prophet pbuh. We all know. MashAllah. Sunnah was to preach peacefully, sunnah was to ask your opponents to bring your proof if they were truthful. Sunnah was to not call anyone non muslim if they call themselves muslims. You talk to me about sunnah ? c'mon dude? Sunnah is to not attack anyone if they are not attacking you physically. Sunnah is to let anyone who declare themselves as Muslim and want to go to hajj to allow them. Keep your mullah's sunnah to yourself please. Thats not Islam. Its not the Islam I believe in. Its not the sunnah of Muhammad PBUH.

Like me and my companions .. oh, i get it ! .. the way they have lived their lives ? oh okai :).. they were stopped to go to hajj, they were stopped to preach, they were stopped to pray.. ok thanks.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

You do realize when I say something I do keep in mind what events Promised Messiah a.s experienced right ? Why do you unnecessarily coming up with ridiculous allegations which have nothing to do with the topic ?

I said nothing is thrown literally from the heaven as heaven is not a physical place. God assign the task to the angels and whatever Allah needed to do on Earth is done by Him. Thats what it means by coming from heavens. We are provided on Earth by earthly materials which are from heavens.

He a.s saw a kashf and the red drops was a sign of the true kashf he was seeing. As simple as that. Spare yourself sometime to not quote stuff from jamaat e ahmadiyya. Its not really goin to help you one bit. You are not His believer. However, you and I are believer of Muhammad PBUH. Lets make him and Quran which was revealed on him as a standard of our debate, shall we? or else there really is no point. It's like your are debating with a hindu, you presenting your things from Quran, and him presenting from Geeta. Something needs to be considered as a standard for anything we talk about. My standard is Quran. Whats yours ?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

There is no dishonesty coming from me ... Please read the parts I highlighted in red - those are the contexts of the two different verses ... The term qad khalat is qualified by those parts I highlighted in red ... in post #335

And to clarify I did not say "the passing away in either of these cases take their meaning as dead or not" I have been trying to say that the term "qad khalat" is not being used to qualify the nature of the prophets in either case ...

It is just a way to say ... "Look at your history of prophets that have come and gone" ... then it qualifies the statement by saying how it needs to be looked at ... i.e. prophets being killed and those who died ... it does not prove that by killing them or if they die they were not prophets ... and in the other verse ... "Look at your history of prophets that have come and gone" then it qualifies the statement by saying "look how they ate" ... showing that eating is a sign of other than Deity.

You are focussing on "qad khalat" as though it means death - and I have said that "qad khalat" means death only metaphorically ... in these verses it means "has come and gone"

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

.