Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace

NO, Brother Ibn Sadique has NOT answered my question.

I don’t understand the second part. What do you want to say? Please show me a Hadith which says that all will follow Isa (as). What an insult to my Master Seydna Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, the Khatam-ul-Anbiya (saw), that all people will “blindly” follow Isa (as) and my beloved Prophet failed in this Task:

**“And if thy Lord had enforced His will, surely, all who are on the earth would have believed together. Wilt thou, then, force men to become believers?”

Chapter Yunus, Verse 99, Verse 100* > Ahmad Muslims**

Man cannot force Man to believe. The Holy Qur’an is clear about this one +

**“And no soul can believe except by the permission of Allah. And He makes *His *wrath *descend *on those who will not use their reason.”

Chapter Yunus, Verse 100, Verse 101* > Ahmadi Muslims

**How do you get permission to believe? when you use reason, not SWORD.

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) has brought no new Sharia. He is an Ummati of the Ummah of Muhammad Mustafa (saw). Isa (as) is the Ummati of the Ummah of Moses (as).

**“Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in a way that is best. Surely, thy Lord knows best who has strayed from His way; and He knows those who are rightly guided.” **

Chapter Al-Nahl, Verse 125, 126 > Ahmadi Muslims*

  • Ahmadi Muslims count “In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the most Merciful” as a Verse.
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Bigboi

The Hadith state that the world will become Muslim ... (or subdued under Islamic rule) in justice and that people will not come forward to accept charity. None of which has happened.

No body will force anyone to believe ...they will be compelled to believe for what they see I front of them ... Specifically referring to Jews and Christians.

Bringing no new Shari'ah ... Fine ... But a new interpretation was indeed brought.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Brother Psyah,

I want the complete Hadith, not bits of it. Please, also elaborate which New Interpretation was brought.

I thought you would answer my original Question, but you never do. This is what I have noticed. Do you argue with me in Light of Chapter of Al Nahl, Verse 125? I don't think so.

Plus, I think that it goes against the Wisdom of Alllah and the Holy Qur'an if Isa (as) was sent first as a Messenger to the House of Israel and now will reappear as a follower of the House of Ishmael. How can that even make sense to you people?

Don't come to me with Allah's will. How unfair is that? nauzobillah.

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Peace Bigboi

Excuse me for my brevity, but you can go an search for the whole Hadith, this conversation has gone all long enough. New interpretation .... Well regarding finality of prophethood, there is an agreed interpretation and your founder went against it, regarding miracles and your leaders go against it, regarding jihad and your people go against it ...

Can you remind me of your original question? I'm sure I've answered it.

Of course you would think it goes against the Wisdom of Allah ... to send Isa (AS) to the Bani Israeel and then to the House of Ismaeel ... In fact, no one is saying that Isa (AS) is being sent to Bani Ismaeel .... You have made this up ... RasoolAllah (SAW) was from Bani Ismaeel, but he (SAW) was SENT to the whole of mankind and Jinn ... Now in your logic that should also be odd ... why would an Arab prophet represent the whole of mankind and Jinn ... How unfair is that?

Alas, Isa (AS) will return not to the House of Ismaeel ... But to the followers of Sayyidina Muhammad (SAW) ... Which includes Bani Israeel, Bani Ismaeel and Jinn, et al ...

Yet you believe in The Messiah ... One for the Bani Israeel and a different one who was sent to Indians ... how unfair is that? If you are going to argue a position please check to see if you are not compromising your own position ...

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I tried not to write anything else here but it seems psyah and ibn sadique are never satisfied with the answers given to them. You people have not even commented on 2 verses i explained in regards to the death of Isa a.s and keep beating around the bushes. I can keep answering to you but this will not solve the debate. I want someone to take this step and answer to my post in which i explained 2 verses.

ps: ibn sadique: i dont think you want to understand. I will write you one last reply in response to the nonsensical stuff you are talking about the name of Hazrat Ahmad(as) and if you get it then great, if not then well.. i’m still in need of your answer about the 2 verses.

Be brave enough to answer this. You may ask any questions afterwards once this issue is dealt with. heres the link to what I need answer of. Thank you.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-…ml#post8980988 (Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Bigboi ** - Have you been reading my post with your eyes **WIDELY CLOSED?

I am answering form Muslim's perspective; I was sure and did not expect you to agree with me just as much I did not expect Christians, Jews, Hindus to agree with me.

Show me where I stated that all with follow Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)?

Did I say all wayward Muslims will follow him?

Did I say all Christian and Jews will follow him?

Did I say all Hindus etc will follow him?

I said “most of Ahmadis will follow him” – Does that mean All to you?

I said “Humanity at large will accept Islam for its Truthfulness and Eternal Beauty.” Does it mean ALL humanity to you?

Please read my post with your eyes WIDELY OPEN and please keep your mind Widely OPEN too!

I am partially quoting my last post

Hey** Bigboi** – I knew you were reading my post with your eyes widely closed, guess what?

You forgot to address the following?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Insult to Prophet Muhammad (saw)????? Allah (swt) chose (swt) Prophet (saw) as the best of His Creation – Highest rank from all the Prophets (asa). The Noble Quran was revealed to the Prophet (saw).

Rank of Prophet Muhammad (saw) is Matchless.

At the demise of Prophet Muhammad (saw) half of Arabia was under ‘Islamic rule.’

At the time of Hz. Umar Al Khattab (ra) both Roman and Persian Empires had been conquered – Islamic land area had increased 10 fold – so by your flaw logic Hz. Umar Al Khattab (ra) is greater than Prophet Muhammad (saw) – audhubillah!

Around 1400 Uthami Khilafaat was spread all over Middle East, Western and Central Asia, all of The Balkan States and all of Northern Africa – with your logic or illogic to be precise uthmani khaleefs were more successful than the Noble Prophet (saw) - audhubillah! – because they had more territory an population under their control, right?

Do really want to know who insults the Noble Prophet (saw)?

Read! These are statements made none other than MGAQ!

"One who denies that the mission of the Prophet (saw) is related to the 6ththousand (13th century) as it was related to 5th thousand (6th century), denies the truth and the text of the Quran and is among the Zalemeen (gone astray). The truth is that the spiritual power of the holy Prophet (saw) at the end of the 6th thousand i.e. these days, is much stronger, more complete and stronger than in those early years. Nay, it is like the fourteenth (moonlit) night (full moon). "( Khutbah-e-Ilhamiah, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 16, P. 271-272; Khutbah-e- Ilhamiah , P. 181)

Here MGAQ is out performing the blessed Prophet (saw)

"For the holy Prophet, God showed only the sign of Eclipse of Moon; But for me he has shown the sign of Eclipse of both Moon and Sun (solar eclipse), thus will you disbelieve me. If his Kalaam (words) were a miracle, a sign, my Kalaam is also a miracle."*( Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, Roohany Khazaen , Vol.19, P.183; Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, P. 71/79)
*

Here MGAQ is out performing the blessed Prophet (saw)

"And Islam started like the crescent which was destined ultimately to become in the later ages the full moon (of the 14th night of the month), by the command of God. Thus, Allah's Wisdom willed that Islam should assume the form of the full moon in that century which should resemble the full moon byway of counting (i.e. in the 14th century)."( Khutba-i-Ilhamiah, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 16, P. 275; Khutba-i-Ilhamiah , P.184/93)

Here MGAQ is out performing the blessed Prophet (saw)

"The spiritual achievement of our holy prophet (saw) took place during the 5ththousand (the Makkan mission) with its brief attributes and that period was not the end of this spiritual achievement.

It was rather the first step to the highest pinnacle of its perfection. Thereafter, this spiritual achievement manifested itself in its full glamour during the 6th thousand (the time of Mirza Ghulam)."( Khutba-i-Ilhamiah, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 16, P. 266; Khutba-i-Ilhamiah , P.177)

“Many Thrones descended from the heaven but thy throne has been placed the highest."(Tadhkirah , P. 346/643, Second Edition - "; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi , P. 89)

Here MGAQ is out performing the blessed Prophet (saw) so his throne is placed higher than anyone, of that includes the blessed Prophet (saw)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Assalama alaykum brother** psyah** – Ahmadis have very selective views about miracles. Only miracles that count are the ones which suit them. All the miracles in the Quran are literally rejected by them all but one, very grudgingly they accept that Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) was born without agency of a father.

Quoting MGAQ

"It is a fact that Muhammad (pbuh) worked only three thousand miracles..] My Miracles exceed one million in number."(Tadhkirah tul Shahadatain, Roohany Khazaen , Vol. 20, P. 43)

MGAQ is quoted having performed more than a million miracles.

MGAQ was about 78 years when he died.

Annually on the average he was performing 12820 miracles

So monthly on the average he was performing 1068 miracles

On daily basis on the average he was performing 35.6 miracles

3 miracle every 2 hours!!!! - That includes the sleeping hours too!

Another classical and unmatched Miracle by MGAQ

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: in a vision, I saw God in a visionary expression and I wrote many predictions; then I placed many papers before God, for his signature, so that he may confirm my demands. I saw that God wrote something and without hesitation put His signature in red ink.

At the time of signing he jerked the pen as they do when ink on the nib is excess and they throw it down. I was very sensitive at that time that God was so kind to me that whatever I demanded He put His signature on that without any hesitation. Then I awoke. At the time, (one of my disciples) Mian Abdullah Sinnori was with me in the room rubbing my feet.

In his presence some drops of red ink fell on my clothes and on those of Abdullah. It is strange to note that the time of pen's jerking and falling of red drops was the same without a slight difference. When the revelation ended, I actually discovered that our clothes were smeared red although we had no dye or anything else of a red colour with us. Abdullah still possesses those smeared clothes. (Haqiqatul Wahi p 255, Taryaqual-Qulub, p 62)

Can you believe it? Allah (swt) signing papers?? Drops of red ink in MGAQ’s dream really materialise!!!!!!

So Allah (swt) must be literally signing the real papers with real red ink and using a real pen.

Wow Now I have heard it all. ** Bigboi** – If you deny the above quotations and the references then I will have them scanned and posted here. You just have to deny the references and quotations.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

abit light hearted

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

What’s nonsensical about the name Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? :confused:

Your query has been answered from Muslim’s perspective, of course it’s going to at variance to what you believe - and you have the right to believe what you want. We want our beliefs to be in line with the Quran and the ahadith - nothing more nothing less.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Ibn-e-saddique and sharmanny, this thread was about various verses of the holy Quran and their interpretation. this topic itself is so huge that cannot be dealt with in a single thread then why are you keep on throwing all sorts of irrelevant stuff about jammat-e-Ahmadiyya, the promised Messiah (as), his names, his writings? It seems that you don't want answers, you simply want to cloud things. this shows your frustration and nothing else.
It is simply too easy to throw allegations. If you want to discuss about his writings, we can start a new thread to discuss one thing at a time. You will see the dishonesty of the people who have taken excerpts from his writings (of course you haven't read them, have you?) when we start answering allegations. The purpose should be to get answers and understand point of view of each other and nothing else.

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here are short answers. don't have time to go in details. I am answering that I am sure about

[quote]
What is your jammat’s stance to the Miracles mentioned the Quran?
[/quote]
In general Yes.

[quote]

Do you believe that Hazrat Ibrahim (as) survived in the fire by Allah’s (swt) Will?
[/quote]
Yes. Where in the Quran, it says that you cannot be saved from fire

[quote]

Do you believe that Hazrat Musa (as) parted the Red Sea by Allah’s (swt) Will?

[/quote]
Yes

[quote]

Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally cured the blind by Allah’s (swt) Will?

[/quote]
Yes. Where in the Quran it is stated that blind cannot be cured?

[quote]
Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally healed the leper by Allah’s (swt) Will?
[/quote]
Yes. Where in the Quran is it stated that leprosy cannot be cured? I think there is hadith that there is cure for everything except death.

[quote]
Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally raised the dead by Allah (swt) Will?
[/quote]
NO. A big NO. nobody comes back to this earth once died. Verses need to be interpreted. raising the dead is the exclusive attribute of the lord Almighty. Also this may cause contradiction in the Quran. I can't say more at this time. I think it accepted belief among you (psyah mentioned a couple of times) that people once died cannot come back. If not then if a sheikh or wali claim that Allah has given him the powers to raise dead, will you believe him? I will outright reject his claim.

[quote]

Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally made a bird come to life by Allah’s (swt) Will?

[/quote]
. This verse also need to be interpreted. Humans don't have the power (even delegated power) **to create life.
**Also this may cause contradiction within Quran. I can't say more than that on this topic at the moment. if needed, we can express our point of view in detail on these two points in separate threads

[quote]

Do you believe that Prophet Muhammad (saw) split the moon in two by Allah’s (swt) Will?
[/quote]
yes this event happened and witnessed by many as moon was appeared to split in half

[quote]

Please bear in mind that ALL these miracles are done with Allah (swt)’s WILL. I believe in ALL of them in the literal sense. Do you?

[/quote]
by the way what is you definition of a miracle? unless something magical happens, you will not regard it as a miracle?

suppose the fire in which Ibrahim (as) was thrown was put out by air or rain or somehow that is not apparent. I will still accept it as a miracle since Allah saved His beloved prophet.

[QUOTE]

Who told you that Miracles are not approved by the Quran?

[/QUOTE]

Who said miracles are not approved by the Quran but it is you who are deliberately going against Quran and find cover under miracles and exceptions. If Allah has mentioned something then you should not find exceptions to it by this way or that way.

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**Kchughtai **– Please go through the whole thread with unbiased mind and gauge for yourself if anything I said is irrelevant.

About me bring in the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, how is it irrelevant to the thread? Agreed this thread is “about various verses of the holy Quran and their interpretation”

Read again my relevant post quoted below; I have pointed out how a verse of Quran has been misinterpreted to somehow prove the Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in mentioned in the Bible and the Quran.

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Secondly about referring to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s writings:

Ahmadis in this thread particularly and otherwise general try to explain all the verses of the Quran with human rationality or logic. I am sure you agree with me that human rationality and logic is not infinite and has limitations.

Muslims from the Companions of the Prophet (saw) (may Allah be pleased with them all) onwards including eminent classical scholars (whom even Jamaat Ahmadiyah acknowledges as Mujadids of their eras) -, barring a few who won’t even reach double digits if you were to count them, believe that Allah (swt) performs miracles to show his Omnipotence.

Muslims from the Companions of the Prophet (saw) (may Allah be pleased with them all) onwards including eminent classical scholars literally believe followings to be Miracles of Allah (swt)

  • that Hazrat Adam (as) was the first human created?

-that Hazrat Ibrahim (as) survived in the fire by Allah’s (swt) Will??

  • that Hazrat Musa (as) parted the Red Sea by Allah’s (swt) Will?

  • Hazrat Isa (AS) literally cured the blind by Allah’s (swt) Will?

  • Hazrat Isa (AS) literally healed the leper by Allah’s (swt) Will?

  • Hazrat Isa (AS) literally raised the dead by Allah (swt) Will?

-Hazrat Isa (AS) literally made a bird come to life by Allah’s (swt) Will?

  • that Prophet Muhammad (saw) split the moon in two by Allah’s (swt) Will?

We also believe the Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) was raised alive up to heavens; he in alive in heaven and Allah (swt) provides for him; and that he will be sent back when Allah (swt) Wills it to be the Universal leader of Muslim Ummah. His raising up alive; his living in the heavens; and descent are miracles of Allah (swt).

Muslims explain and interpret the relevant verses as miracles of Allah (swt) Whereas Ahmadis being rationalists deny miracles and try to explain these verses using limited human rationality.

Read the following how Ahmadi scholar Sher Ali (mind you he is rationalist par excellence) has eloquently the intricacies of Miracles.

Note 1755 miracle birth of Jesus

1755 How Mary came to conceive Jesus without agency of a husband is one of those Divine secrets which at present may be considered beyond human intellect to fathom. It may be regarded as above the ordinary natural law as now know it. But the knowledge of man, at best is limited.

He has not been able to comprehend all Divine secrets. There are mysteries in nature which man has not been able to solve as yet; perhaps he may be never to solve them. Among them may be included the fatherless birth of Jesus. God’s ways are inscrutable and he powers are limitless. He who could create the whole universe by the word, Kun (be), surely can bring about such changes in matter as should make this apparently insoluble mystery yield to a solution.

The Holy Quran

Otherwise in other incidences Sher Ali explains away all ‘other’ miracles mentioned in the Quran using rationality.

So I had to show Ahmadi posters here not to be very dismissive about miracles, because Mirza Ghulam Ahamd has claimed miracles to his credit – not just a few but around one million.

So Kchughtai I hope now you understand I that I was not being irrelevant here nor frustrated. But we can’t have pseudo rationality explaining matters which Prophet Muhammad (saw) has already dealt with in authentic ahadith.

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I'm 100 % sure now that you have read all the arguments of Ahmadi Muslims with eyes shut. Can you even read then? I have to laugh, nah, I should cry for my brothers who have wasted their time with someone who has proven that he is not interested in what we presents, but keeps on running in circles like a mad man.

I never said that you said that. I was talking to Bao Bahari. I only mentioned you have not answered my questions.

I'm done with you and your likes. Only Allah Subhan wa T'ala can help you folks. I do not blame you, though. It is hard to get out of the box you and your likes are locked in.

If I wanted to adress them I would've, but this Thread is not about Miracles.

Peace Psyah,

you are Stubborn. There were no new interpretations. Jihad against what? You say you know Arabic and still make a fool of yourself and fool others, too. Khatam does not mean last and you know that, but still you fool us. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam (as) Ahmad never denied Miracles. Why don't you present the facts instead of baseless arguments.

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WOW you sound upset **Bigboi **- Chill

Dishing out abuse? Abusing your opponents – I wonder where you get this trait from? :teary1: You sound very frustrated!

Miracles - Allah’s (swt) ability to do what He Likes.

He has the POWER to take anyone alive to heaven and take care of them - If you deny this, you deny Allah’s (swt) Omnipotence.

If He decides on a matter all that He has to say is “KUN” - “Be” “FAYA KUN” “It Happens”

You are constrained by your beliefs to believe the above

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I am not surprised with the BIG NO!

Do you deny Allah’s (swt) ability to take any one alive to heaven?

If Allah (swt) really wanted to take someone to heaven will it beyond Allah’s (swt) power and Omnipotence?

Forget what you believe as an Ahmadi – answer the above

Let me partially quote Sher Ali:

[QUOTE]
*God’s ways are inscrutable and he powers are limitless. He who could create the whole universe by the word, Kun (be), surely can bring about such changes in matter as should make this apparently insoluble mystery yield to a solution.
*
[/QUOTE]

So how are you going to explain the following ayah

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. [5:110]

Allah (swt) says:

you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission

then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission

and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission (at that time these were incurable diseases)

and when you brought forth the dead by My permission (people had died and were brought back to life – with Allah’s Will and Permission)

modelling a lump of clay into bird form and breathing into it to give life with Allah (swt)’s permission is miracle.

Those who had died were brought to life again. This is miracle

Curing the blind and leper at time was impossible neither Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) was a physician – thus a miracle

You mean re-interpreted, don’t you?

This had been done by the Prophet (saw) and we have authenticated ahadith for this;

We have ijmah of the blessed Companions (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) of the Prophet (saw).

All the eminent scholars, whom even Ahmadis take to be Mujadids of their times, have interpreted the verses in light of Quran, ahadith, ijmah of the blessed Companions (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all, and if need be Ijtehad and Qiyas.

We do not need new re-interpretation.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. Al Imran: ayah 7

To understand ayahs of the Noble Quran – Accepted method is as follows:

First of all Quran explains itself

Secondly we use the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to understand the Quran

Thirdly we use the Ijma As-Sahabah

Forthly, Qiyas and Ijtihad (here Reason, Rationality and Logic can be employed)

Anything not from the above is disaster

No, I will not believe him; and just like you I will outright reject his claim.

Now If Allah (swt) states in Quran that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum brought dead to life with His Permission are you going to say: “No my rationality won't allow me to believe it to be so”.

We have authentic ahadith about miracles performed by Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) with Allah’s (swt) permission. This I will believe.

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i have enough understanding now about your cult to be not so interesting in further understanding. not only is the basis of your cult incorrect, you make takfir on the mainstream muslims, you were rude to Psyah without acknowledging that he was providing you a cover of safety. bigboi refered to us as b******s, apologised went away to think and came back seemingly unchanged without acknowledging the wrong. mr popat is handicapped by his loyalty to cult, we are certainly not open to his ideas and neither is he open to ours. you'll probably be the same.

if you are interested in deen islam as conveyed by Prophet SAW then sure come and talk and sit with us but if you want to push ahmadiyah beliefs in my opinion you should refrain it will only cause negativity. this was subtly discussed in bigbois 'one' thread

of the ahmadiyah beliefs ive come across most ive found to be offensive, and because you call yourselves muslims i have thought positively about the sikhs (since they spared us from what could have been a similar fitnah)

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I’m not upset, just schocked about your argument that I attached things to you I never said. Be fair enough to admit your fault that you were wrong. Even here you fail. Yes, Allah can do what he wants, but it goes against his wisdom to take someone into the Heaven and let him live there for 2000 years. Plus, you mentioned the Jews. The Jews are waiting for the Messiah, too. What you gonna do with them? Snap the Messiah away from them, if he should arrive? I see a big fight coming.

Leave your assumptions in your bag, only Allah knows if I question his omnipotence or not. You do not need to play Allah.

People who are dead will only be raised at the day of Judgement and not before. Isa (as) revived people to life who were spiritual dead, blind and deaf with Allah’s will. Nothing to get excited about really.

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Taubah, where did I say B*****s?