Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Popat – It's easy to find grammatical/ spelling mistakes or omissions in others' posts and gloat about it.

May be my education up to University level here in the UK is not at par with that you have in Canada. I had corrected it myself before you pointed it out with tinge of sadistic pleasure. These things happen in longer posts. To err is Human.

Now try this out. In your Post 219 you stated the following:

You have copied me verbatim, you did not even bother to correct misspelled ‘Muahammad ‘!:)

So should I safely assume that you agree that MGA has the right to discard the authentic ahadith of Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) like waste paper?

I assume it was an oversight on your part.

I am in process of replying to your posts, time is very limited, posts are long. May be by tomorrow I’ll be able to reply. One thing is certain; I won’t be having English lessons from you. :)

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No.. I dont have spare time to come and point out grammatical errors and stuff. That was not what I did. I was merely trying to tell you that your words did not make sense. Its good that you took it back. That was all. Nothing to do with grammar or anything like that. Do NOT say there is no prophet after Him. So lets just not say there is no prophet after him, ok fair enough.

[QUOTE]
Now try this out. In your Post 219 you stated the following:

You have copied me verbatim, you did not even bother to correct misspelled ‘Muahammad ‘!:)

So should I safely assume that you agree that MGA has the right to discard the authentic ahadith of Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) like waste paper?

I assume it was an oversight on your part.

I am in process of replying to your posts, time is very limited, posts are long. May be by tomorrow I’ll be able to reply. One thing is certain; I won’t be having English lessons from you. :)
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I mistakenly did not quote what you said and it showed as if I said it.

Regardless.. i'm not here to correct your english. My mind just couldnt accept the way you gave the example because it did not make sense. Hence me telling you to read first before you write..and if you did read and thought about before writing then yeah.. problem with the english then.

Whichever hadith contradicts Quran is not authentic. Yes, throw it away.. as Muhammad PBUH cannot say anything that goes against Quran. I dont want to write another paragraph to explain this now. Take it however you like. Ahadith which are in accordance with Quran are fine..and we use them to explain Quran.. I wonder when do you use ahadith which contradicts Quran, or if you use any at all.. I dont understand whats the fuss about this for. But anyway.. hope u got your answer now.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

And I said I agreed! Only reason why i wrote a little about every point is so you know that saying of a prophet is different than saying of a scholar who is not divinely guided. The problem is.. if you are using his words in your favor, it shows you are using him as a hujjat on you, which is incorrect. Hujjat to you at the moment is Quran and ahadith which is a common ground to debate on with me.

If you are using Hz Ahmad(as)'s sayings to show me He a.s is right then he is the same person who has told us Isa a.s died and the verses I bring forward to you are the verses He has told Muslims in favor of his stance. Do you believe He a.s is right ? I believe he a.s is right. What about you? Read about what He a.s said when Allah has told him whats right. Otherwise it's like you are stuck on the sayings of Muhmmad pbuh when he said something else that overcame what he a.s said earlier. As a general rule ,it is the last wording of prophet on a certain topic that is considered right.

But I sense Hz Ahmad(as)'s arguments in favor of Jesus a.s's death is far beyond anyone's ability to answer from Quran and ahadith.. which is why you always seem to bring Him and start talking about it. This is a sign of frustration..

No response on 2 verses still ?

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Again, i'm not the one who likes to get off topic. So ill repeat myself. Isa a.s was just a messenger, and messengers like him have passed away.. and he , along with his mother used to eat. Isa a.s passed away just like other messengers before him have. Isa a.s used to eat food.

1) In the verse, Isa a.s is categorized with other messengers before him who passed away
2) In the verse, Isa a.s with his mother has been said to used to eat. Someone who used to eat, means they do not eat anymore.
3) Someone who doesnt eat cannot remain alive with physical body. Only being whose 'alive' and will remain alive without food is Allah alone. To say that Jesus a.s doesnt eat and is still alive is shirk.

One must see 2 criteria Allah himself is putting infront of Christians to show them that Jesus cannot be God. Had it been only the condition of 'eating', then Allah needed not to say that 1) he is just a messenger 2) that messengers like him have passed away.
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If Isa A.S 'used to' eat and God does not eat. It means Isa a.s does not eat anymore. Only being who does not eat and is alive is Allah. Saying Jesus is alive and does not eat is shirk. Right or wrong?

Also comment on messengers before him passing away and Isa a.s was a messengers like him. God does not die. Messengers do. Therefore, no messenger, including Isa a.s can be called God. not talking about longevity of life >> as long as he does not eat and remain alive while being outside of Earth...then your are considering him one like God. Which is shirk! 2 criteria. Not dying , not eating. Both is being applied to Jesus a.s as well. Kindly reflect upon it.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

ok :)
Jesus a.s if he does the same thing? which is telling you which hadith is right and which is not.. you will reject jesus a.s too? wow! its like you have no respect for a person coming from God and you're forcing yourself to believing in something that has always been believed..which mind you, could be wrong too!

Which hadith did He throw in the bin ? Just curious to find out , thats all..

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There you go again and misrepresenting or in other words being deceitful/devious.

Your hero’s name is Ghulam Ahmad and it certainly is NOT Ahmad. These are two separate names.

Ghulam Ahmad means Slave of the One who is praise; whereas Ahmad means the One who is praised.

Just like Abdullah and Allah are not some names.

Abdullah means slave of Allah whereas Allah is the name of the Creator.

Using your cunningness, If I drop Abdu; Allah is remains.

Do you get it?

Why did you drop the Ghulam? So that deceitfully/deviously you can claim that Ahmad in Quran refers to your Hero?

Is that honesty? Do you take everyone to be fools? You can suck up whatever is dished to you, don’t accept others to follow you just those who followed the famous Pied Piper with smiles on their faces.
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Mirza is caste
Ghulam was His sirname
Ahmad was His name.

One referred in Quran as Ahmad is referring to Muhammad PBUH. But why did you believe in someone with the name of Muhammad pbuh when you're told that His (muhammad pbuh)'s name will be Ahmad ? Do you agree that you believe Muhammad to be the same Ahmad foretold by Jesus a.s ?

There is no fooling around anywhere. Sorry to say, but you're a confused soul. The name Ahmad CAN be used as a separate name unlike names of Allah in which the word 'Attaul' or "Abdul" should be used.

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So why have you guys questioning Allah (swt) has taken Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) up to heavens?

Why Allah (swt) and how will Allah (swt) send him back?

How is Allah (swt) managing to keep taken Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) alive in the Heaven soooooo loooooong?

Allah (swt) can do what He pleases. It was His Pleasure and Will that He had already decided that He will take Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) to heavens and return Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) when it Pleases HIM.

I agree with you that these kind of questions are ridiculous and I can add further that it smacks of rebelliousness against Allah (swt)! I am sure you concur with me.
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For once, i got a little happy that finally you started using your brain but when I read 'allah can do everything' .. i got disappointed again. O well, its ok.. you have to please your fellow Muslims as well. I understand that.

These questions which you raise require an answer. Simply 'allah can do everything' is not enough. What is NOT even in Quran, why even associate it with Quran and Islam ? that's ridiculous! No christian ever asked Muhammad PBUH to go to heavens like Jesus a.s did and bring down a book. No christian in those days ridiculed Muhammad PBUH for the inability to go to heavens. Though, they asked, and the reply was..Allah is paak from all this...which means Allah does not do such things. You go to heavens only when you die. Period. And your body remains on Earth.

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Please do a google search on ‘Fastest growing religion’ and then come back and talk. Your Murabis lie.
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MashAllah, It's Islam. But which Islam ? Shia, sunni, barelvi, ahle hadith, wahabi etc ? Everyone spreading hatred against eachother. We belong to Islam as well and we are in the same run for spreading Islam all around the world.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Muslims scholars have authenticated the ahadith ages ago. And have classified them. Any ahadith that contradicted the Quran have been rejected.

Why should Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) be rejected by Muslims when his arrival will be with accordance with Islamic Beliefs?

All the ahadith which exposed his deceit were rejected and new twist was given to the accepted interpretation of Quran to suit his agenda.

Popat There you go. Lying yet again.

Mirza is not his caste!

His name is **Ghulam Ahmad **– meaning Slave of Ahmad; similar to Ghulam Muhammad; similar to Ghulam Rasool; similar to Ghulam Murtaza (meaning Slave of Murtaza); similar to Ata Muhammad (meaning Bestowed by Muahmmad) !!

Ghulam Ahmad is a compound name. similar to Ghulam Muhammad; similar to Ghulam Rasool.

For Certain his name is NOT Ahmad! Just like your murrabis, you lie.

Name: Ghulam Ahmad

Surname: Mirza

Caste: Birlas

Ethnic Origins: Mughals from Samarqand. (Turkish)

*The founder of Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat was Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, alayhe salam. His father’s name was Mirza Ghulam Murtaza and his mother’s name was Chiragh Bibi (lady of the lamp). His grandfather was Mirza Ata Muhammad (d.1814), and his great grand father was Mirza Gul Muhammad (d.1800).

Hadhrat Ahmad (AS) belonged to the Birlas branch of the respectable Mughal family. The surname of this family is Mirza that is why all members of this family use Mirza as their surname. Mirza Hadi Beg was the forefather of this family who migrated to India in 1530 from his hometown Samarqand with two hundred others during the reign of Mughal King Zaheer al-Din Babur. They settled along the Beyas river in the Indian province of Punjab. Mirza Hadi Beg was appointed Qazi (judge) with jurisdiction over seventy villages around Qadian. He founded a village called Islampur, later the name changed to Islampur Qazi Majhi, which over time was shortened to Qazi Majhi, then only Qazian, finally changed into Qadian.*

A Brief History of Ahmadiyya Movement In Islam

I can’t believe it I am giving you lessons about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad :blush: :blush:!!!

Giving abuse yet again? – following the Sunnah of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

'Muslim scholars' have authenticated them .. oh ok.. and ahadith contradicting Quran have been rejected..
Thats what Hz Ahmad(as) said too. We reject ahadith which contradict Quran and whatever hadith contradicts Quran contradicts His wahi. Since we believe in him AS a prophet, His wahi does not contradict Quran..

Your scholars did the same thing what Hz Ahmad (as) said. Quran first..to explain Quran, we need ahadith.. any hadith which contradict Quran will contradict His wahi.. since His wahi is in accordance to Quran and not according to ahadith. Ahadith are used to explain Quran.

Will Jesus not do the same thing?

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Popat There you go. Lying yet again.

Mirza is not his caste!

His name is *Ghulam Ahmad *– meaning Slave of Ahmad; similar to Ghulam Muhammad; similar to Ghulam Rasool; similar to Ghulam Murtaza (meaning Slave of Murtaza); similar to Ata Muhammad (meaning Bestowed by Muahmmad) !!

Ghulam Ahmad is a compound name. similar to Ghulam Muhammad; similar to Ghulam Rasool.

For Certain his name is NOT Ahmad! Just like your murrabis, you lie.

Name: Ghulam Ahmad

Surname: Mirza

Caste: Birlas

Ethnic Origins: Mughals from Samarqand. (Turkish)
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Like I said, Ahmad is the name. Ghulam itself is not a name, just like Abdul itself is not a name. Unlike Allah's name in which we are required to put Abdul before it, the name of Ahmad does not have such condition. As you see, His father name was Mirza Ghulam Murtaza. Mirza Ghulam being used as a sirname. Murtaza was His father's name. His name was Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam being used as a sir name, Mirza being a called as a caste as well.

Good that you read about His background. I have information about which family he belonged to and what his name was. But thanks for the brief introduction anyway. As you can see, in the information you provided, he a.s is referred as Hazrat Ahmad(as) as well. But again, thats not the whole issue.. call him Hazrat Ahmad (as), Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as).. why does it hurt you? Read about the things im telling you rather than focusing on what i'm addressing Him as.

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Giving abuse yet again? – following the Sunnah of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
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That's a nice way of not replying.

Are Muslims nauzubillah following the sunnah of holy prophet s.a.w when you dont think twice before calling someone kafir? do you see it as 'abuse' when Quran calls disbelievers deaf, dumb and blind.. do you find it abusing when Quran calls disbelievers 'dead' ? You do need to think what you're saying to me and see if it doesnt hurt your own belief on Quran or Muhammad PBUH... but I dont want to discuss this. Really I dont. I see it pointless sometimes to reply to you. If you have nothing to reply to me, kindly save yourself time. If everything has been said from your side.. then leave it up to someone else who can answer. I still need response to 2 verses which clearly shows Isa a.s's death. Unless you show me otherwise.

PS: I like how you people are liking each other's responses even if it doesnt make sense at all. Like I said, you have to keep your fellow so called Muslims happy too. Carry on.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[QUOTE]
*Again, i'm not the one who likes to get off topic. So ill repeat myself. Isa a.s was just a messenger, and messengers like him have passed away.. and he , along with his mother used to eat. Isa a.s passed away just like other messengers before him have. Isa a.s used to eat food. *

1) In the verse, Isa a.s is categorized with other messengers before him who passed away
2) In the verse, Isa a.s with his mother has been said to used to eat. Someone who used to eat, means they do not eat anymore.
3) Someone who doesnt eat cannot remain alive with physical body. Only being whose 'alive' and will remain alive without food is Allah alone. To say that Jesus a.s doesnt eat and is still alive is shirk.

One must see 2 criteria Allah himself is putting infront of Christians to show them that Jesus cannot be God. Had it been only the condition of 'eating', then Allah needed not to say that 1) he is just a messenger 2) that messengers like him have passed away.
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I see myself repeating over and over even after 13 pages of this discussion. I have not came across a reasonable answer so I can just draw conclusion from it.

If ONLY the condition of eating is told in the verse, and means that Allah does not eat and Jesus a.s used to eat.. therefore he a.s CANNOT be God. We know that He a.s is NOT eating now (used to eat), if he a.s is NOT eating then you are saying NO NO God.. Jesus also does not eat. Now this is shirk, is it not?

The question is very simple. I dont understand if you do have an answer to it, why are you shying away? So back to the same issue. One reasonable answer to this and then we'll have our rest..

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

sustenance, recieving sustenance

Isa alaihis salam said: ...and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."

thats amazing

full ayat:
'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Allah, our Lord! Send us from the heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."

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Popat you are clutching at straws - Go read about compound names – Ghulam is same as Abd in Arabic. In Arabic the name would Abdul Ahmad – In Iraq they have names like Abdul Nabi, Abdul Rasool, Abdul Mahdi etc.

In Asian subcontinent they have compound names as Ghulam Murataza, Ghulam Muhammad, Ghulam Ahmad, Ghulam Rasool, Ghulam Nabi etc. It is counted as one name.

So by your logic If one is named Ghulam Nabi – it is same as Nabi; and if one is called Ghulam Rasool – it is same as Rasool.

The viewers are smart, they can see that you not doing justice to the truth.

Yeah, the site is Ahmadi one, so they will follow their murrabis just like you.

You can call him what you like but Ahmad; by taking alone as Ahmad shows sinister/creepy agenda to fool unsuspecting people that Ahmad in Quran is same as Mohammad. Ahmad is the second coming of Muhammad (saw).

I know this from first hand experience talking to your Murrabis, they were convinced somehow that Ahmad and Ghulam Ahmad are one and the same just as much as you are. They were performing verbal somersaults to convince me that Ghulam Ahmad & Ahmad is one and the same. Yeah, if Ahmad commits a crime, Ghulam Ahmad can be punished. This shows sheer desperation on part of Ahmadis that MGA was mentioned in the Quran.

I have read quite a lot about MGA. Let's leave it at that. You are not obliged to reply to me. But if you bring up some funny stuff I have the right to present the view of the Muslims.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Son of Ghulam Murtaza is not the same as the son of Abdullah ... The name of the Mahdi according to Sunni sources will be Muhammad ... Not Ahmad ... Subtle but definite.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

So, I see how it is now. When you ran out of any explanation you can give to my explanation of 2 verses, you are here started talking about the founder of Ahmadiyya jamaat, who, at the moment i'm not talking about at all. Your continuous effort to keep talking about Him shows how much interested you are to know more about Him. That's nice of you. It never hurts to read about someone you dont believe in. Kindly read all about Him and His jamaat on alislam.org . This thread is not about Him.

I'll give you this last reply in response to His name. If you get it, i'll thank God. If not, then well...i tried..

Let me repeat myself. Ghulam Ahmad is the full name. Ghulam itself cannot be a name alone. However, Ahmad can be a name in itself. Ghulam as you said is like Abdul. Abdul again is not a name in itself..the name is what follows Ghulam or Abdul or Ataul.

Name such as Muhammad Ahmad, one doesnt call him as Muhammad but call him Ahmad..
Name that has Abdul Aziz or Abdul Hadie, one doesnt call him Abdul but the name given to him which is unique after Abdul is Aziz or Hadie.
Names such as Ghulam Ahmad or Ghulam Murtaza.. the unique name given to Him is Ahmad, whereas Ghulam itself is not a name. Although the full name is Ghulam Ahmad, one should not have any objection if His name is referred to as Ahmad sometimes.

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You can call him what you like but Ahmad; by taking alone as Ahmad shows sinister/creepy agenda to fool unsuspecting people that Ahmad in Quran is same as Mohammad. Ahmad is the second coming of Muhammad (saw).
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Wrong. We call him Ahmad because that is the name given to Him. Muhammad PBUH is different and Ghulam Ahmad(as) are 2 different personalities, Ghulam Ahmad (as) being the subordinate of Muhammad PBUH. You are wrong and spread lie when you say we refer the name that is in Quran as Ahmad to mean Ghulam Ahmad(AS). Astaghfirullah. Ahmad in Quran refers to Muhammad PBUH. What I asked you was, if name is one of the issue you're not accepting Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) then you should question your imaan on Muhammad PBUH who is referred as Ahmad in Quran. On what basis did you believe Muhammad PBUH to be Ahmad? I'm not saying you're wrong in believing that.. but i'm asking about the basis for it. That was my question..and you purposely started spreading lies against jamaat who hold no such belief that Ahmad in Quran is referring to Hz Ahmad(as) of Qadian.

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I have read quite a lot about MGA. Let's leave it at that. You are not obliged to reply to me. But if you bring up some funny stuff I have the right to present the view of the Muslims.
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At this point, after 13 pages, what would be nice from you is a reply in response to the explanation i gave of 2 verses and i'll rest my case. Share the view of your beliefs in response to an issue that needs a reply, which is that of the case of Isa a.s and the reply that ive been wanting for 2 verses. Don't go around writing anything and everything about Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) and making it 'the view of the Muslims'. That's really unnecessary. Be Muslim enough to answer from Quran, or else let someone else reply. Thank you.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

[5:113] When the disciples said, ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, is thy Lord able to send down to us a table spread with food from heaven?’ he said, ‘Fear Allah, if you are believers.’
[5:114] They said, ‘We desire that we may eat of it, and that our hearts be at rest and that we may know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that we may be witnesses thereto.’
[5:115] Said Jesus, son of Mary, ‘O Allah, our Lord, send down to us a table from heaven spread with food that it may be to us a festival, to the first of us and to the last of us, and a Sign from Thee; and provide sustenance for us, for Thou art the Best of sustainers.’
[5:116] Allah said, ‘Surely, I will send it down to you, but whosoever of you disbelieves afterwards — I will surely punish them with a punishment wherewith I will not punish any other of the peoples.’

Now, if you read 2 verses before.. you wil see disciples are asking Jesus to ask His lord to send down table of food from heaven. His reply was to fear Allah.
Do you think the table of food was literally sent down from heaven ?
I will not comment on everything that is said in the above verses...but i'll leave you to think that in the verse, Jesus asked Lord to provide sustenance for 'us'. Now, if this to you means longevity of life.. or make him live outside Earth then that is non sense. The verse has 'us' in it.. and the meaning of provide sustenance to us is to strengthen us in this world, to give us power, to give worldly goods.. which Allah has given to them. Christians were given temporal power over Rome in the beginning as under the Romans and they hold sway now over vast areas of the Earth.

How are you taking 'provide us sustenance as you are the best of sustainers'? What does that mean to you ? What do I comment about a verse you just copy/pasted without giving your response on what it means to you? I will answer in more detail on this, if this is not enough after you tell me what the verse means to you.

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The Holy Qur’an relates in Chapter Al-Saff (Chapter 61, verses 7-10):

And call to mind when Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘O Children of Israel, surely, I am Allah’s Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad… He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of truth, that it may cause it to prevail over all religions.

From these verses of the Holy Qur’an we see that Jesus prophesied the coming of Ahmad, who is referred to in the Holy Bible as ‘Paraclete’ or ‘the Comforter’ (John 14:15-26 & 16:7-14). This refers to the Holy Prophet Muhammad’s, may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him, other name ‘Ahmad’ who came and brought the Religion of Truth – Islam - which will ‘prevail over all religions’. That will happen in the time of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, may peace be upon him, and so it is dual prophecy relating to the coming of the Holy Prophet – Ahmad and the fulfilment of the Holy Prophet’s message in the time of the Promised Messiah – Ahmad.

Claims of the Promised Messiah

That is Ahmadi site -

Read Note 3037 (Right at the end) ………………..But as a corollary it may also apply to the promise Messiah, Founder of Ahmadiyyah Movement, because he has also been called Ahmad in Divine revelation (Barahin Ahmadiyya) and because also in his person the second Manifestation of the Holy Prophet……………..

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1132&region=EN

See how cunningly Ghulam Ahmad has been transformed into Ahmad - I rest my case.

Popat let me try to explain It to you for the last time.

There are 2 types of compound names, like; Muhammad Ali; Muhammad Ahmad or Mushtaq Ahmad.

Here 2 independent names are compounded to form a single name. Both these names can stand on their own as they are proper names in their own right.

For example, a person named Muhammad Ali could be called Ali for short but in all the official matters he will be called Muhammad Ali.

Then we have compound names which are not independent of each other.

Let’s take Ghulam Ahmad for example. Here the one set of the name is dependent on the other. If you separate them, the Ghulam part makes no sense. Ahmad is independent name of it’s own.

Ghulam Ahmad means slave of Ahmad. Here ‘Ghulam Ahmad’ is the slave and Ahmad is the master.

So Ghulam Ahmad can never be Ahmad. When the parents name their son Ghulam Ahmad the intent is that this boy is slave of Ahmad.

Enough of this, I hope this time around it makes sense to you.

I think brother pysah did a wonderful job in explaining to you over and over again.

You are constrained to agree with him. Ahmadiyah Jammat’s existence depends on:

  1. Death of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)

  2. Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) not coming back

Otherwise how can MGA claim to coming in Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum’s (as) instead be valid.

Therefore your stance:

  1. You are rejecting the interpretation of the said ayahs by Muslims’

  2. You are rejecting all the ahadith as regards coming of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)

  3. You are rejecting Miracles of Allah (swt) as regards “Allah taking Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) up to Himself

  4. You are rejecting Miracles of Allah (swt) to sustain Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) in ‘Heavens.’

I am going abroad for 2 weeks and will attempt to address those two verses. May be brother pysah can try yet again in the meantime if he has time to repeat everything again in Ramadan.

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Popat I don’t think you were ignorant of the above, if you were pretending not knowing the above then you were being devious and if you knew the above and was pretending not knowing it you were being dishonest.

The job of authenticating the ahadith had been done by the eminent classical Islamic scholars, so there was no need to re-authenticate the ahadith.

Mr MGAQ’s criteria for the authenticating the ahadith was not the checking if the ahadith contradicted the Quran but the WAHI which comes to him!!!

So his criteria to authenticate the ahadith had nothing to do with the Quran. In fact his ‘WAHI’ contradicted the Quran!!!

Islam had been perfected and completed in the life time of Prophet Muhammad (saw). The following ayah confirms this:

This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion 5:3***

Refer to the commentary by very eminent Ahmadi scholar (Sher Ali) of the above ayah:

Note 721 Ikmal (perfecting) and Itmam (completing) are noun-infinitives, the first relating to quality and the second to quantity. The first word shows that doctrines and the commandments affecting the physical, moral and spiritual development of man have been embodied in the Quran in their most perfect form; while the second signifies that nothing which was needed by man has been left out. Again the former word pertains to commandments relating to the self. The perfection and the completion of God’s religion and favour have been mentioned side by side with laws relating to eatables in order to point out that the use of lawful and good food forms one of the very important bases of good morals which in turn provide a pedestal for spiritual progress. Incidentally, the verse was the last to be revealed, the Holy Prophet having died only 82 days after its revelation.

The Holy Quran

Now refer to the following statement of Mr.** MGAQ **

“My teachings contain orders as well as prohibitions and renovation of important injunctions of the Shari’at. For this reason God has named my teachings and the ‘WAHI’ (revelations) that comes to me as a 'boat. Thus see, God has declared my ‘wahi’, my teachings and allegiance with me to be Noah’s Ark and the basis of salvation for all human beings. Let he who has eyes may see and he who has ears may hear.” (Arba’een, Vol. 4, footnote of page 6; Roohani Khazain, Vol. 17, p. 435).

He has the audacity to amend what had been perfected and completed by Allah Almighty Himself!!!

What an impudence and effrontery to Allah Almighty. Allah (swt) clearly states in the Quran the Islam was perfected and completed in the life time of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and here Mr MGAQ is adding and subtracting from what is deemed complete and perfect!!!

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will neither add to nor subtract anything from Islam. He will correct the wayward Muslims to the correct beliefs. (Shias will be advised to give up concept of Imamate and cursing the blessed companions of the Prophet (saw) (may Allah be pleased with them all); those who visit graves of saints seeking help will be corrected to turn to Allah (swt) for help; those who follow ‘cultural Islam’ will be made to follow Islam as taught by the Prophet (saw) and practiced by his blessed companions (may Allah be pleased with them all).

Mr MGAQ claimed prophet hood for himself contrary to Islamic beliefs; whereas Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)will be universal Islamic leader and even though he being a prophet prior to advent of Prophet Muhammad (saw) he will not claim it or practice it.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

This is very obvious, Mr MGAQ will reject and throw them in to the waste bin:

  1. All the ahadith about Imam Mahdi (ra) – That he will be from Prophet’s (saw) progeny through Imam Hassan (ra) and that his name will be Muhammad Ibn Abdullah.

  2. All the ahadith with regards to Hz Isa Ibn Maryum (as) – His taken up alive, his descent in Damascus, his war against Dajjal, and his being buried next to the Prophet (saw) when he eventually dies.

  3. All the ahadith that No prophet will be appointed after the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and only imposters will lay claim to Prophet hood

  4. All the ahadith that prove him to be a liar and an imposter.

Popat – above points have been dealt with very tirelessly and diligently by brother Pysah, it’s only you that is in Obstructionist mode. You are constrained by your Cultist beliefs to agree with **brother Pysah.
**
Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum’s (as) being alive in heaven and coming in later days is death blow to Ahmadiyyat Cult.

Dead Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum’s (as) serves Ahmadiyyat Cult well; then only MGAQ can lay claim to prophet hood!

You think that you are on to something very big but you are certainly not.

This has nothing to do with Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as)‘death’ – In fact this rejects the Christians claim for Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum’s (as) divinity! Allah (swt) is telling the Christians that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will also die like other previous messengers had died.

Nothing more and nothing less.

Leave your pseudo rationality aside.

This ayah too negates the divinity of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) and his mother (ra).

Allah (swt) is telling the Christians that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) and his mother (ra) used to eat food which is necessary and essential human need and that Allah (swt) does not eat.

Popat the sentence is in past tense, If I say the Popat used to play for Chelsea does that mean you are not playing any more.

Who is saying that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is not eating now? ??

We, Muslims, believe as the Quran says that Allah (swt) has taken him up to Himself. Allah (swt) is the Razzaq and providing Rizq (food) to Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) is in Allah (swt) domain. You don’t have to worry about it.

Allah (swt) took Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) to Himself so let Him cater as He wants to , it bothers Him not whether you believe it or not.

Refer to the following ayat:

7:19 Waya adamu oskun anta wazawjuka aljannata fakula min haythu ****uma wala taqraba hathihi alshshajarata fatakoona mina alththalimeena

Fakula in Arabic means “so eat”

And (We said): O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden; so eat from where you desire, but do not go near this tree, for then you will be of the unjust. 7:19]

Hz. Adam (as) and his wife used to eat when they were in Heaven, Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum is lodged in Heaven too, so he eats whatever Hz. Adam (as) and his wife ate.

I am giving you Ahmadi translation of ayah 7:19 and commentary on it.

And when WE said `O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully where ever you will, but approach not this tree, least you be of the wrongdoers.’ (Sher Ali 7:19)

The Holy Quran

Note 68: The word Jannah (garden) occurring in this verse does not refer to Heaven or Paradise but simply to the garden-like place where Adam was first made to live. It cannot refer to Heaven: first because it was on the Earth that Adam was to live (2:37); secondly, Heaven is a place from which no one, who once enters it, is ever expelled (15:49), while Adam was made to the Jannah (garden) spoken in this verse. This shows that the Jannah (garden) in which Adam first dwelt was aplace on this very Earth which was given this name on account of the fertility of its soil and the abundance of its verdure……….

See how Ahmadis misinterpret the Quran to meet the agenda of their cult. So Adam was not living in heaven???

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Popat I am quoting my post 153 again for your benefit:

What is your jammat’s stance to the Miracles mentioned the Quran?

Do you believe that Hazrat Adam (as) was the first human created?

Do you believe that Hazrat Ibrahim (as) survived in the fire by Allah’s (swt) Will??

Do you believe that Hazrat Musa (as) parted the Red Sea by Allah’s (swt) Will?

Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally cured the blind by Allah’s (swt) Will?

Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally healed the leper by Allah’s (swt) Will?

Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally raised the dead by Allah (swt) Will?

Do you believe Hazrat Isa (AS) literally made a bird come to life by Allah’s (swt) Will?

Do you believe that Prophet Muhammad (saw) split the moon in two by Allah’s (swt) Will?

Please bear in mind that ALL these miracles are done with Allah (swt)’s WILL. I believe in ALL of them in the literal sense. Do you?

I hope you answer the above.

Who told you that Miracles are not approved by the Quran?

Please don’t bring in your pseudo rationality pseudo intellectualism into play.

If you believe in Allah (swt)'s ability to do miracles then life will be easy for you; otherwise you will be stuck in your pseudo rationality pseudo intellectualism.

If you answer the above then we can carry on.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace

I seek knowledge and want to ask a question. I do not want to dismantle here anyone or prove that I'm right and you are wrong.

It is common belief of the Jews and the Muslim that the Messiah will come back and the World will be ruled by this Messiah. He is long awaited and will be accepted as a Champion.

Now my question is, considering Chapter Ya-Sin, Verse 30:

*Ah! Alas for the Servants! There comes not a Messenger to them but they mock at him. *

How I understand this is that according to Allah's will this Philosophy of the Noble Qur'an will be changed, because everyone will accept Isa (as) or would have to accept Isa (as) or he will be slain. Does this not contradict also the Verse "La ikra fid-deen"? That there is no compulsion in Religion/Belief?

Thanks for an answer :)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Bigboi – Peace to you too. You got it wrong, Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) WILL CERTAINLY NOT SLAY ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN HIM!

*Ah! Alas for the Servants! There comes not a Messenger to them but they mock at him. *

The above are words of Almighty are true, and history is witness to it that all the Messengers from Allah (swt) were opposed and mocked by their immediate family/tribe and haughty ones with vested interests to preserve their privileges and status quo.

This rule is for the messengers of Allah (swt) ONLY.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the Seal of Prophets and no prophets will be appointed for Mankind and Jinn in any form (Shadow Prophet, deputy prophet, non law giving prophet, etc etc) after him.

It will be religious duty to oppose and resist false prophets for Salvation of Mankind just as much as it is important to eradicate cancerous tumours from human or any living body.

No sane person would advocate for the right of cancerous cells to live.

Just before the descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) the world will be in two camps.

One camp will be lead by Masih al Dajjal (the greatest false prophet). This camp will be of oppression and enslavement of humanity to the benefit of few. Zionists, Neo-Con Christians, atheists, those who want to have ‘good time’ in this world and even oppressive so-called Muslim leaders will be in be in this camp.

Masih al Dajjal will lay claim to divinity, promising heaven on Earth, riches beyond imagination and success in this World and will attempt to misguide the humanity into worshiping him. In fact it will be Masih al Dajjal who will slay anyone who will not believe in him!

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will fight for justice and against oppression of Masih al Dajjal.

He certainly will not be fighting to convert or coerce/force/bully anyone to accept Islam. He will be well aware of that there is no compulsion in religion.

After victory over Masih al Dajjal, he will preach the message of Islam but will not coerce anyone to accept Islam.

HE CERTAINLY WILL NOT SLAY ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN HIM.

As the world has now become a global village and with advent Instant mass media and internet, the message of Islam will be accepted by Humanity at large by sheer force of its TRUTHFULNESS – There will be not compulsion or force:

1) Wayward Muslims will ‘will return back’ and practice Islam in its pristine form.

2) Christians and Jews will see the Truth of Islam and accept it.

3) People of other faiths Hindus, Buddhists and followers of other oriental faiths etc will too accept Islam seeing the folly of following idolatrous religion

4) Even most of Ahmadis will revert back to Islam once they realize that they were mislead away from Islam.

5) Humanity at large will accept Islam for its Truthfulness and Eternal Beauty.

Nobody will be forced into Islam; just as Prophet Muhammad (saw) DID NOT force anyone to accept Islam.

This is just my attempt to answer your query (as I see it). I hope other knowledgeable person will do better than me to answer your query.

Now Bigboi Please can you try to answer the following.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Brother this perfectly fits in our version of the story , coming back of Isa Alaihasalam. See when Hadrat Isa(as) came jews and other mocked him even tried to kill him, Hadrat Isa(as) second coming will only be as ummati, there will be no new shariyat ,even he will pray behind an ummati - Hadrat mehdi :razi: .

Conversion under ikrah is not acceptable ( there is a famous debate among fuqaha that only nikah and talaq may at times gets acepted under ikrah ) nothing else is valid. So if there is ikrah then such eman is not accepted. If narrations has it that all will be following isa(as) then logicaly there must not be any ikrah.

Waisay Brother Ibn sadique has already answered your question :slight_smile:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Pardon my ignorance but what is Ikrah?