Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Psyah,

**21:34) WE granted not everlasting life to any mortal before thee. If you shouldst die, shall they live for ever?

**When the Almighty Himself said so then who are you to raise such an absurd question.

What is immortality? Immortal is the one who does not die and this attribute of Allah is highlighted in the following verse.

**25:58) And rely on the Ever-living Who dies not, and celebrate His praise; and Sufficient is He as being aware of the faults of His servants,

**
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Islam says all creatures shall taste death, but not necessarily remain dead ...
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Yes. so it is very clear that the only possible immortality comes after death.

sorry for jumping. pls continue

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace kchughtai

Tafsir state that the ayat is referring to everlasting life in this world …

Tafsir Ibn Kathir → Surah Al-Anbiya → No One has been granted Immortality in this World

And your statement that I have made in red … Of course it does … I was never saying that immortality comes before death … LOL that would be logically unsound … :hehe:

I was saying since after death immortality is given to the selected creation of God, it follows that therefore immortality on its own is not the criteria for Divine Attribute … But rather how that immortality comes … Is it inherent or is it from God? … And it is that type of immortality that none other has dominion over that is reserved for Allah (SWT) … He is inherently Eternal, but He can induce His Creation to live eternally too. But you see all of this was hypothetical to prove a point … No one says that Isa (AS) is living forever … Merely a long time before his death … And it is highly likely that that time duration is only be experienced by us and not by him (AS) at all.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

mr popat to my knowledge youve lied on islam and yourself atleast 5 times and made additional mistakes (2 of) which im not including as blatant lies. i am not the man to go through all these deeply ingrained issues with you, besides i think you are pretty solid in your belief of mirzai-at and i am content with that.

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then after, He pbuh said that im superior to all the prophets
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share the hadith

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After receiving the verse of him being khataman nabiyeen, he did not know he was khataman nabiyeen...now after 18 years.. he s.a.w said He pbuh was khataman nabiyeen even when Adam a.s was in the middle of His creation.
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the verse of khatam nabiyin was sent in the medina period so where are you getting 18 years from. the wording here is so deceptive it could be wrote by shaitan

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Only difference is, he no longer remained mushriq
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thank you for admiting he was

atm i think mirza (ak) was mushriq all along and remained mushriq, but we'll see im still being introduced to your beliefs and his writings

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Popat Yes I did write a lot but now have out done me. :) So that you know that I read you post with clear mind I am going to respond to all that you wrote. I was really stretched for time but then I did it. It was an effort.

Popat – You sound confused. :)

Allow me to repeat myself for the umpteenth time:

You have to understand the Quran by the criteria given above. That is the accepted ‘formula’ among the Muslims. Outside this criterion is sheer speculation and guess work.

The Qur’an makes it abundantly clear that the function of the Messenger is not merely that of a deliveryman who simply delivers the revelation from Allah (swt) to us. Rather, he has been entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating the same. This is a point mentioned in a number of verses in the Qur’an:

*And We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that you mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.*

Therefore, Hadith explains, clarifies, and removes ambiguities about the Qur’an. Hence, once we reject the Hadith, we may never be able to figure out the whole meaning of the Qur’an.

I don’t want to understand any other way than the above criterion.

The Quran encourages Muslims to ponder and reflect over the ayahs of the Quran; that does not mean we use limited human rationality (Compared with Wisdom of Allah (swt)) and pseudo-intellectualism to understand and explain the Qurannic ayahs.

If we did that, results will be disastrous – Like Hz. Adam was born in Mesopotamia; Mr. Iblis was a man and a trouble maker. ;)

The problem lies here:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad states:

"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that Wahi which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. Rest of the Hadith, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol.19 p.140)
His main Criteria is that AHADITH SHOULD NOT CONTRADICT HIS WAHI!!!!!!!!

So his Wahi takes precedence over the sayings of the Blessed Messenger of Allah (saw)!!!!!!!

You (Ahmadis) interpret Quran, ahadith and Sunnah in the light of “WAHI” received by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; We Muslims stick to what Prophet Muhammad (saw) had stated, anything beyond that is false to us - therein in lies the problem between us.

So I reject Ahmadiyyat and accept Islam as conveyed by Prophet Muhammad (saw) for my Salvation.

Let me repeat myself yet again

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

(also refer back to my reply above)

You don’t have to tell me that Quran is answer to my every question. Allah (swt) says so!

Yes, the Quran speaks for itself but to understand one has to use the following criterion:

I am repeating myself again.

Ponder over the words of Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (ra):

The Qur’an, is but ink and paper, and it does not speak for itself. Instead, it is human beings who give effect to it according to their limited personal judgments and opinions.”

*“In one such report members of the Khawarij accused ‘Ali of accepting the judgment and dominion (hakimiyya) of human beings instead of abiding by the dominion of God’s law. Upon hearing of this accusation, ‘Ali called upon the people to gather around him and brought a large copy of the Qur’an. ‘Ali touched the Qur’an while instructing it to speak to the people and inform them about God’s law.

Surprised, the people gathered around ‘Ali exclaimed, “What are you doing? The Qur’an cannot speak, for it is not a human being!” Upon hearing this, ‘Ali exclaimed that this was exactly his point.

The Qur’an, ‘Ali explained, is but ink and paper, and it does not speak for itself. Instead, it is human beings who give effect to it according to their limited personal judgments and opinions.”
*
Shihab al-Din Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani, Fath al-Bari bi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1993), 14:303.

It is you who is having difficulties in understanding miracles in the Quran and are limiting the ability of Allah (swt) to do anything He wants.

Allah (swt) take up to heavens ALIVE Anyone He wants; Sustain him as He wants.

What He wishes all He has to say “BE” and Lo! It is. It’s that easy! And yet you deny it.

Miracles happen when Allah (swt) breaks rules He has set for His creation. He is free and is not bound by these rule and is free of them.

So Miracles of Quran are fairytales to you?

So to you purity in Islam is to believe that Hz. Adam (as) was born in Mesopotamia and Mr. Iblis (the cursed one) was a man in Mesopotamia and was a trouble maker? ;)

Ghamdi says some nice things but he moves away from what the Prophet (saw) had said and relies on his own rationality I won’t agree with him. It’s nothing to do if he views converge with that of Ahmadis.

If you say Allah (swt) is One; I won’t disagree with you just because you are an Ahmadi.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Please show me where I have used Derogatory language against ‘other peoples’ holy leaders?

Go read what I said. I said No Vacancy for an imposter and that assignment had been per-booked by Divine Will.

Yes my belief and that of Muslims is different from yours.

Hz. Isa (as) is a messenger of Allah (swt).
Allah (swt) has assigned him two commissions

  1. Allah’s messenger to Bani Israel
  2. On his second advent as Islamic leader.

That’s how Allah (swt) has Willed it. If you have a problem with it then you have problem with Will of Allah (swt).

Yet again I have to repeat myself.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

No worries, insert the words ‘the LAST PROPHET’ the meaning remain the same.

Here I’ll do it for you: I’ll just insert the words ‘the LAST’ in what I had written; the meaning remains the same unless you don’t want to see it for obvious reasons.

“The following narration is attributed to – Hz. Ayeisha(ra):

"Say he is ‘the LAST of prophets’ but do NOT say ‘there is no prophet after him’

The above statement clearly states that she is advising and reminding the people that though Hz. Muhammad (saw) is the last Messenger of Allah Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) who is a messenger will be coming in the end of times.

They were also well aware that this time around he will be coming as an Islamic leader and not as messenger.

And nowhere in the ahadith literature will Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) ever claim that his status is that of a messenger.

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will follow the Shariah and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) – adding nothing to it nor subtracting anything from it.”

Who are you to decide as to who Allah (swt) grants the commission to lead Muslim Ummah?

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will never come to teach ‘new Islam’. He will follow all that Prophet Muhammad (saw) did and believed in. He will not add anything nor subtract anything from Islam.

Everything will be left in Purity just as Prophet Muhammad (saw) had left it.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has claimed to receive WAHI on par with Quran – And has assigned himself the task to interpret the Quran according his WAHI and rejecting the ahadith at variance to his WaHI!!!

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will be far from that.

Prophet hood is bestowed by Allah (swt) on whom He Wills it. Nobody can promote himself/herself to Prophet hood however good and great they felt ‘inside’.

I think every Muslim person will have/or should have enmity towards self appointed prophets.

One sure shot confirmation of a confused person is the he doesn’t know whether to smile or cry. :slight_smile:

In this state confused persons are known to do the both at the same time. :wink:

False pretenders will also claim prophet hood for themselves. And history has enough evidence of this.

A few ahadith about false prophets claiming prophet hood. (Of course Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has thrown these into the dust bin)

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: Allah’s Apostle said: "The Hour will not be established until two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, until about 30 dajjals appear, and each of them will claim that he is Allah’s Apostle..."(Related by Bukhari and Muslim)

Once the Prophet of Allah said, while delivering a ceremonial speech at an occasion of a solar eclipse, as Samura son of Jundub reported: “…Verily by God, the Last Hour will not come until 30 liars of prophecy will appear and the final one will be the One-eyed False Messiah.” (Narrated by Imam Ahmad as a sound Hadeeth).

Muslims believe Allah (swt) raised Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) alive up to Himself; Allah (swt) has done that, so in similar fashion He will return Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) back.

For Allah (swt) nothing is difficult.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: “Be,” and it is. [Quran 2:117]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad made a lot claims and there was no consistency in those claims.

I am posting 2 more statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; He claims that he is reincarnation of Prophet Muhammad (saw).
You guys believe in reincarnation???

And Know that just as our Holy Prophet (saw) was sent in the fifth thousand (the 6th century A.D.), in the same manner he was sent in the sixth thousand(the 13th century A.D.) in the incarnation of the Promised Messiah." ( Khutba-e-lhamiah, Roohany Khazaen , Vol. 16, P. 270; Khutba-e-Ilhamiah, P.180, 1st Edition, Qadian, 1902)

“The Holy Prophet (saw) had two advents. In other words, you may say that one mission was in the reincarnated form. It was promised that the Holy prophet (saw) would be sent to the world once again and this was fulfilled by the advent of the Promised Messiah and the promised Mehdi.”(Tuhfah-e-Golravia, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 17, P. 249;Tuhfah-e-Golravia, P.94, 1st Edition, Qadian, 1902)

I have some more similar material of Ghulam Ahmad’s utterances. If you deny these, I’ll get someone to post scanned copies of it for your and viewers benefit. – This will be done once you deny that above statements are correct.

Can you please give us the names of the parents of both? Please? Please? Pleaseeeee? See I have aske 3 times

Prophet Muhammad (saw) had done job to perfection and delivered complete Islam, nothing was left out.

*This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. *(Quran 3:5)

Absolutely nothing could be added to Islam and nothing could be taken out. Any such deed would tantamount to rebelling against none other than Allah (swt) Himself!!!

Has anybody the right to reject authentic ahadith? Authentic ahadith are the very words uttered the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw)! “I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER.) That’s how Ghulam Ahmad will deal with authentic sayings of the Blessed Prophet Muahammad (saw)!

Yeah, that’s shows love and respect.

I don’t need to spread wrong information – viewers here are smart – they can assess who is doing what.

Please re-read the whole post – enough evidence has been provided – You are constrained by your beliefs not to accept.

You have used the word INDICATES – that show uncertainty!

We had interpreted the said verses in line with the ahadith of Prophet Muhammad (saw) whereas you are using another set WAHI.

Religion also gets divided when false prophets ‘arrive’. By following Ghulam Ahmad Mirza you have opted to be form his Ummah parted company with Muslims

With ‘Advent’ of BahaUllah, Bahais opted out. So, false prophets do divide the religion. History has ample proof of that.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad received WAHI?????????? Amazing!!! So this WAHI is on par with the Quran?

So the authentic ahadith which were in accordance with Quran and were taken as such by the Companions (raa) of the Prophet (saw) are now rejected by Ghulam Ahmad because these ahadith now contradict his WAHI!!!!!!!!!!!

What is this belief??? Read the following blessed ayah. IS THERE ANY ROOM AND REASON TO IMPROVE ISLAM?????
*
This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful*. (Quran 3:5)

What’s the name of angel who is commissioned for this task (delivering WAHI to MGA)?

And you said that I was deceiving and spreading falsehood?

I give preference to the authentic ahadith of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) and reject without any fear all the Wahi on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. I can’t be more clearer than that.

This has been discussed over and over again – We have given you our stance, take it or reject. Ahmadi source in no hujja for us – in fact we reject it.

Our source we understand it by:
*
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is*. 2:117]

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

My reaction to anybody be he a Christian, Jew, Parsi, Sikh, Atheist and whatever who says to me: you that you are 'slavishly loyal' to the sayings of Muhammad PBUH and not think” would be YES! YES! YES! Till they cover their ears.

The believers are but those people who believed in God and His Messenger without ever feeling doubt thereafter, and strove with their souls and possessions in the way of God; those are the ones who are the truthful. (al-Hujurat, 49.15)

If he [Muhammad] had invented false sayings concerning Us, We would surely have grasped him firmly, and then cut off the artery of his heart, and none of you could have withheld Us from doing this. (al-Haqqa, 69:44–7)

Abu Bakr gets the title of As-SIDDIQ

"The Holy Prophet (Sal Allaho Alehe Wassallam) had Mi'raj (Ascension) in the IOth year of his Mission.

He narrated his Ascension to the people in the morning. Some of them came to Abu Bakr and said, "Have you listened to your friend (the Holy Prophet)? He is claiming that he visited Jerusalem and the Sublime Throne in the heavens last night and talked with Allah Almighty.

Would you believe it?" Hadrat Abu Bakr (Raziallah Anho) immediately replied. "If he said so then it is an absolute Truth".

They again said, "Do you believe that he visited all these places and came back within a small part of night?"

He again replied. "Of course I believe in it and I believe in the things which are farther than it, i.e., the news of Hell and Paradise".

For this the Holy Prophet (Sal Allaho Alehe Wassallam) named him as-Siddiq i.e., the most Truthful and sincere person in Faith not having even slightest doubt.

Of course Abu Bakr's faith was so strong that nothing could shake it."

I hope that is enough said.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

I find your responses very amusing. You do not care one bit which side of an extreme you’re going to, just to defend your baseless belief.

This is not my criteria that someone who does not die is to be a God and God alone. It is not me saying it. Allah has set forth this condition. I urge you to read the verse. Therein lies all your answers. So clear that you need not to go anywhere else to know that Jesus a.s just like any other messenger died, and he used to eat, just like any other prophet used to eat.

So, I suggest you spend some time in pondering over the verse rather than coming up with some random stuff. God does not die and he does not eat. Messengers die and they also eat.. therefore, none of them can be called God. If you take out exception from it and say Jesus a.s is the only messenger who is still alive, then you must believe in Him as someone superior than a messenger. What part of it is hard to understand ?

He a.s is either alive or hes dead.

For him to be alive 1 ) He must be on Earth. Theres no life outside of Earth for a human being 2) He must be eating food. For Allah never sent a single messenger who never used to eat food. Human who eat food, gets old and eventually die.. ( death in a form of I) killing, II) passing away ). 3) He must be getting old.

5:75 is a pretty self explanatory verse.. which requires not paragraphs after paragraphs of explanation. Remember the criteria of ever living being God is set by none other than God himself. Everything everywhere in this universe if for a temporary period except Him.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Point was.. prophets reveal the information when Allah tells them. Do you agree theres a hadith in which Muhammad pbuh said that whoever says I'm superior than Yousaf Bin Matti is a liar. ?

Hadith i was mentioning is the hadith in which Muhammad PBUH said i was khataman nabiyeen even when Adam a.s was in the middle of His creation. He said this hadith about 18 years after the verse of khataman nabiyeen was revealed to him. I'm not here to give you a history lesson. Search about it and you'll see the difference in time between khataman nabiyeen verse and a hadith in which he s.a.w said that. This is what happens when you dont have information about Islam. You call everything a lie and fallacy

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thank you for admiting he was

atm i think mirza (ak) was mushriq all along and remained mushriq, but we'll see im still being introduced to your beliefs and his writings
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Allah does as He pleases. Theres no barriers to his blessings. He says in Quran that he reveals not his secrets to anyone but his messengers.. so the secrets(secrets of Quran) after Muhammad PBUH, if anyone understood it in the most perfect way, it is His humble servant Hz Ahmad (as).

ps: welcome to the true teachings of Islam. Read the beliefs and enlighten your soul with true spirit of Islam. May Allah be with you.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

You take me for a fool? It is you who are regurgitating the insufficient arguments of people like the late Mirza Tahir Sahib ... Your 4th Khalifa ...

We don't believe Isa (as) is immortal ... We believe he will die ... But we don't believe he had died yet ... And this third option is constantly being ignored by you.

Even if we take Isa (AS) to be living forever it cannot happen without the permission of Allah (SWT) and the verse given by kchughtai proves that it is possible ... When Allah (SWT) said, and we did not grant anyone eternal life before you ...tafsir mention it is meant in the context of Earthly eternal life ... And secondly we can see that Allah (SWT) CAN grant this, but chose not to ...

you have no leg to stand on ... And you are arguing for no reason ... !

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

psyah sahib,

My point was fairly simple and straight forward. It was in response to your assertions in post # 197

and in #199

If Allah grants eternal life to Jesus(as) with his wordly body then it simply violates 21:34-35. It is NOT a matter of what Allah can or cannot do. It is a matter of whether Allah goes against His own words or not. Your hypothesis was flawed. It may sound ‘logical’ but it goes against Quran. period. possibility of long life of Isa was not the subject of my post.

Not dying is one among unlimited attributes of Allah as highlighted in verse 25:58

Rest of your discussion is mere waste of time and effort.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Quran, sunnah, hadith are our standards on making beliefs as well.
I dont see my time being spent in a good way by replying to you honestly.
You say quran explains it self and then you are the one who takes one verse , interpret it your way and put a hand on the rest of the other verses which if translated/interpreted shakes your belief. But you've been told that once you accept isa a.s death, you must accept ahmadiyyat and to avoid that, you are doing everything you possibly can.. even if your mind doesnt accept it. carry on.

[QUOTE]
The Quran encourages Muslims to ponder and reflect over the ayahs of the Quran; that does not mean we use limited human rationality (Compared with Wisdom of Allah (swt)) and pseudo-intellectualism to understand and explain the Qurannic ayahs.

If we did that, results will be disastrous – Like Hz. Adam was born in Mesopotamia; Mr. Iblis was a man and a trouble maker. ;)

The problem lies here:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad states:

"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that Wahi which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. Rest of the Hadith, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol.19 p.140)
His main Criteria is that AHADITH SHOULD NOT CONTRADICT HIS WAHI!!!!!!!!

So his Wahi takes precedence over the sayings of the Blessed Messenger of Allah (saw)!!!!!!!

You (Ahmadis) interpret Quran, ahadith and Sunnah in the light of “WAHI” received by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; We Muslims stick to what Prophet Muhammad (saw) had stated, anything beyond that is false to us - therein in lies the problem between us.

So I reject Ahmadiyyat and accept Islam as conveyed by Prophet Muhammad (saw) for my Salvation.

Let me repeat myself yet again
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lol !. Theres nothing wrong in believing Hz Adam a.s was born in Mesopotamia. How is it 'disastrous' ? Beliefs which create differences in us are the ones that needs to be addressed. I can go on and explain the whole phenomena behind Adam a.s birth but really its not gona get anywhere.

You are being dishonest here. I explained it earlier that Allah has promised to keep Quran safe, NOT ahadith. Out of 100,000's of ahadith, imam Bukhari chose couple of thousands after having researched a lot about their authenticity. Quran is the basis , to expand the understanding of what Quran has to say, we use ahadith to understand the context of Quran in a better way. Now, any hadith contradicting Quran must be questioned for their authenticity. His Wahi was a direct revelation from Allah, which was in accordance to Quran. Him being a prophet, ofcourse He has the authority to tell you which hadith is and is not legit. I see nothing wrong in that. You should not either. Jesus a.s would have done exactly the same if he was to come :)

Our standard is Quran first and every hadith is true as long as it is in accordance to Quran. It should be the same for you too. Quran first, then anything else.

Anyone can claim that they understood Quran the way it should be understood. But its just a claim ! to prove this, you must show that your interpretation of any verse does not contradict with any other verse of Quran. I guarantee you our interpretation does not contradict with any of the verse from Quran as we see Quran in its entirety.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Buddy!! .. enough already! you can have your last say. I care less for that.

I have provided you with the translation of 2 verses to which you have NO answer to. Verse in which messengers like Messiah have been told that they're dead. And that He "USED TO" eat. Verse in which Muhammad PBUH and prophets before him said to be passed away. GIVE ME a reasonable answer to those verses rather than beating around the bushes. It is not gona get you anywhere!

I'm not talking about Jamaat e Ahmadiyya. I do know this jamaat alone is the biggest threat to your man made beliefs.. You do know very well that we have answer to every single baseless questions you raise and you also do know very well that the points I raise, your mind does indeed go round in circle.. whether you accept it or not.

Your belief that ' he has not died yet' HAS NO BASIS WHATSOEVER ! you come up with exceptions, you come up with it calling it miracle.. and whatnot. That is just insane dude!

I've said it enough. I was going to keep replying to you and Ibn Sadique, but I see no point of it at all.

Your beliefs are so much twisted that even you dont know what you're talking about. You not only commit shirk by saying someone else can also be immortal like Allah .. but you also go against Quranic verses just to defend your belief. How much of a Muslim are you? Only Allah knows.

Ascension of a human being up to heavens alive ! yeah OK!

I dont expect you to answer to any of my post but I DO expect you to have your say on 2 verses which i explained to you. You have no where to hide. You are the one arguing for no reason! I'm talking from Quran and you give me some very illogical explanation that is only limited to your brain. They are all against Quran. Living for so many years.. not aging.. travelling through times.. like dude ! what is this? Allah's religion or your fav author's sci fi novel ?

Everytime I get in debate with you.. my imaan on Allah, His messenger, Promised Messiah A.S strengthens immensely. Allah has alhamdulillah saved me and is saving a lot of Muslims by making them realize the truth.

Indeed truth has come and falsehood has perished away.

Allah Hu Akbar.

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**

Jesus a.s will receive Wahi. He a.s will tell you what true Islam is. He will tell you what Allah has told him. He will tell you which hadith is right , which hadith is not. If He is sent by Allah, no wahi of his will contradict Quran. And whatever hadith does not contradict Quran are right. His wahi cannot contradict Quran, but it can contradict hadith.. in which case, hadith will not be believed and His wahi and Quran will. Go to your scholar and ask them questions. It is your religion too and not just your scholar's.

lol ! i feel pity for you.
completion of religion has nothing to do with completion of wahi. Religion can be completed and door of wahi is still open. No new religion can now be born. Simple. Many of the sufis and mujaddid claimed to have relationship with Allah through revelations. Allah talks bro !! Allah is still alive. He still talks. Try and he will descend angels on you. Islam is a living religion and not a religion that is stored just in history books.

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What’s the name of angel who is commissioned for this task (delivering WAHI to MGA)?

And you said that I was deceiving and spreading falsehood?
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I know where you're going :)
But to answr your question.. Gabriel... who was the same angel who came to earlier prophets. If you have problem with the personality of Hz Ahmad A.S .. open another thread. I'm talking about Quran here.. what Hz Ahmad (as) has encouraged us to do.

[QUOTE]
I give preference to the authentic ahadith of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) and reject without any fear all the Wahi on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. I can’t be more clearer than that.

This has been discussed over and over again – We have given you our stance, take it or reject. Ahmadi source in no hujja for us – in fact we reject it.

Our source we understand it by:
*
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is*. 2:117]
[/QUOTE]

I give preference to Quran first, then ahadith. You use ahadith and fit ur understanding of it with Quran. I read quran and to explain Quran , use Hadith. Door of Wahi is open. You will reject wahi on jesus a.s on the same account. You cannot accept the fact that there can be anyone now from God. Uttering from word that ure waiting for jesus a.s is not going to cut it.

If Ahmadi source if of no hujja to you then you should talk from a standard common to both of us.. which is Quran. And quit this hide and seek game.

Wrote enough already for today. Peace.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

On the contrary ... I say that immortality is not a term in Arabic ... and if you must know there is a difference between being "Eternal" from being "kept alive forever" ... Allah (SWT) can make His Creation immortal, but that immortality is UNLIKE His Immortality ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

How am I being dishonest? Yes, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim and others have done the job and have authenticated the ahadith – Authentication of ahadith has been done.

If you read my posts, all of them, I have been consistent in saying that first point of reference is the Quran and then ahadith.

By referring to the Quran first doesn’t give us license or free hand to speculate on the ayahs. We refer to the authentic ahadith to see what Prophet Muahammad (saw) had commented on that ayah; and if find his authentic sayings on that particular ayah then – No Speculations and Psuedo-intellectual somersaultings.

You call that being dishonest? Coming from you, I don’t mind in the least.

Alhamdulilah authentication of hadith has been done looooooooooong time ago by very pious and upright people.

So has these WAHI (revelations) been preserved in book form, just like the WAHI on Prophet Muhammad (saw) has been preserved in form of Quran?

Since this is Wahi – direct message from Allah (swt) – so it has to be on par with the Quran, right?

What do you call this book, Quran serial two?

By the way, you forgot to answer the name of the angel commissioned to bring the WAHI to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; please can we have that name?

This has been the standard of Muslims from day one.

If you believe in Mesopotamia; I am in no need of your guarantees ;).

A lot has been said I don’t any more can be added – most of time it was very repetitive.

Just have a last fling, please inform us about:

1) Since this is Wahi – direct message from Allah (swt) – so it has to be on par with the Quran, right? What do you call this book, Quran serial two?

2) By the way, you forgot to mention the name of the angel commissioned to bring the WAHI to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; please can we have that name?

If you say Jabrail (as) (I see you just said it - reference from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad for this? Are you sure he said Gabrail, no other name? You can't lie in his name.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

He is the 'last of prophets' but do NOT say there is no prophet after Him, indicates another prophet coming. What's mind boggling is that you do not understand simple English either. If he is infact the last of prophets, in its all literal sense, then hz ayesha needed not to say do NOT say there is no prophet after him. Now, new prophet or Jesus a.s.. it doesnt matter for now.. a prophet 'AFTER" him indeed. It shows that Jesus a.s WILL be a prophet. You are waiting for him, we say He died. Therefore, the title of prophet is given to him.. no matter who comes, earlier one or a new one...and 'after' Him as well. What is it that you dont understand ?

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Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will follow the Shariah and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) – adding nothing to it nor subtracting anything from it.”

Who are you to decide as to who Allah (swt) grants the commission to lead Muslim Ummah?

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will never come to teach ‘new Islam’. He will follow all that Prophet Muhammad (saw) did and believed in. He will not add anything nor subtract anything from Islam.

Everything will be left in Purity just as Prophet Muhammad (saw) had left it.
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Dishonesty yet again. If the islam you have is the same islam 1450 years ago, and it will remain like this.. believing in whichever fairytale your scholars tell you.. then i regret to inform you that you are merely having a belief of Jesus a.s coming. You cannot and will NOT accept Him telling you what real Islam is. Your excuse then would be that Islam is 'complete' and its in its 'pure' form.. yet you will not know that completion of a religion does not guarantee perfection in the ummah. There will be people just like YOU who will be rejecting Jesus a.s on the very same account that you're rejecting clear proves in front of you.

There is no 'new islam'. Your belief also is that Jesus a.s will come to clear about the beliefs in which they differed in. Coming to tell you the correct interpretation of verses. You should know very well that His interpretation could also contradict with all the scholar's understanding of any belief. At that point, Jesus a.s's words will be held true, everything else was false. Remember, no new islam there.

If you've been taught that after A comes C and then F and E.. and if the english teacher comes to tell you the pattern of alphabets, you dont call it new alphabets or new language.

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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has claimed to receive WAHI on par with Quran – And has assigned himself the task to interpret the Quran according his WAHI and rejecting the ahadith at variance to his WaHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will be far from that.

Prophet hood is bestowed by Allah (swt) on whom He Wills it. Nobody can promote himself/herself to Prophet hood however good and great they felt ‘inside’.

I think every Muslim person will have/or should have enmity towards self appointed prophets.

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Hz Ahmad (as) explained Qur'an in a way no one else could. He a.s defended Islam and therefore was given the title of 'champion of Islam'. He a.s was also called 'Sultan ul qalm' (master of pen). He a.s put in front of us such treasure of Islam which was hidden for centuries. All through divine guidance. He a.s used to receive Wahi from Allah. Allah stills talks to whomsoever He pleases. None dare take this quality of His away from Him.

His Wahi had nothing outside of what islam teaches us. This is what I mean when I say your belief is just to the point of merely saying it from your tongue. It still hasnt reached to your heart for approval. You believing that Jesus a.s will not add or subtract anything from Quran and YET telling you the correct understanding of verses which needs attention.. and when one person did the same thing, you have a problem.

As far as prophethood is concerned, Allah give this blessing to whomsoever He pleases. You cannot tell Him why Him, why not the other one.. why in this part of the world, why not there? why at this time, why not a century from now?.. these kind of questions are ridiculous. Prophethood is a blessing.. but to munkireen, Quran says prophethood is a fitnah. Everything a prophet does was strange to them. Them eating, them going to markets, them living their lives just like any other person on Earth. They find it strange and call it fitnah. So its ok. Its not just you, but rather all the ummahs who rejected prophets ask the same kind of questions.

Who is from Allah and who is not is also not in your control. You cannot just simply point at someone and call whatever you like unless you have solid proof. Unless you show them that His prophethood is not approved by Quran and ahadith. Unless you see His followers decreasing in numbers.. unless you show how Allah is not on their side. BUt what do we see? jamaat spreading in every corner of the earth.. the true message of Islam brought by hz Ahmad(as) is gaining popularity even among people who are not at the moment accept jamaat.. Followers increasing.. Has any false prophet given this much from Allah ? See for once, the evidence you give to christians in favor of Muhammad PBUH's prophethood.. and apply that same evidence on Hz Ahmad(as) and see how Allah has helped Him, is helping Him with khilaafat, helping His jamaat, and helping them spread. See if you must. You must be stunned. Go on mta.tv and see how quickly the true message of Islam which has no fairytales involved in it is spreading. Alhamdulillah.

[QUOTE]
One sure shot confirmation of a confused person is the he doesn’t know whether to smile or cry. :)

In this state confused persons are known to do the both at the same time. ;)

False pretenders will also claim prophet hood for themselves. And history has enough evidence of this.

A few ahadith about false prophets claiming prophet hood. (Of course Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has thrown these into the dust bin)
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I feel sad for you because you do not believe in what you say. Yeah, its perfectly alright to say we are infact waiting for someone, the same kind of person whom we believe in , who will do the same task as was done by Hz Ahmad (as), but its just NOT HIM, but rather we are waiting for Jesus a.s. If you say that, then that would sound much better. Rather than you saying something from the tongue and not accepting it from your heart.

A confused person is someone who takes away someone's prophethood just so they can keep one belief of khataman nabiyeen. Sad to say to you but Isa a.s is prophet and a messenger wheresoever He is. (a verse). Also, allah does not take away prophethood from anyone once given. You need to get your facts straight.

Like i said.. it takes a lot of courage for someone to claim prophethood. It is not an easy task. Allah said if someone says that I told him something when I have not, and hes lying, then i will bring him into account and will destroy him and his followers..and will not give their mission progress. Now, show me any jamaat who gets as much hatred from orthodox muslims as jamaat e ahmadiyya, show me any jamaat progressing and multiplying in numbers as fast as jamaat e ahmadiyya, and show me if the mission of jamaat has been destroyed. Show me if Hz Ahmad (as) was killed (like other imposters).. What does that show you? Are you saying Allah did not know there was a person saying that He is blessed with prophethood, and are you saying Allah is still unaware that one jamaat who you say is false is spreading and some outer force has been always there with them to help them? Again, use the same evidences you give to non muslims in favor of Muhammad PBUH's prophethood and apply those on Hz Ahmad(as).

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Narrated Abu Hurayrah: Allah's Apostle said: "The Hour will not be established until two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, until about 30 dajjals appear, and each of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle..."(Related by Bukhari and Muslim)

Once the Prophet of Allah said, while delivering a ceremonial speech at an occasion of a solar eclipse, as Samura son of Jundub reported: "...Verily by God, the Last Hour will not come until 30 liars of prophecy will appear and the final one will be the One-eyed False Messiah." (Narrated by Imam Ahmad as a sound Hadeeth).
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1) 2 big groups sunni and shias are fighting..both following same religious doctrine. Dajjals appear.. they get destroyed by Allah. Allah make their believers to come back to the right path. He also does not help them grow in numbers. Their mission dies. True prophets mission never dies, their followers beliefs gets strengthen by the hardship of opponents..and Allah help their mission and help them grow in numbers. Whom has Allah does this for? You know the answer but it's ok you can keep the answer to yourself.

2) 'UNTIL' 30 liars. Now, i'm not talking about those 30 liars for now.. But what about after 30? one true prophet, yeah ?

[QUOTE]
Muslims believe Allah (swt) raised Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) alive up to Himself; Allah (swt) has done that, so in similar fashion He will return Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) back.

For Allah (swt) nothing is difficult.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: *"Be," and it is*. [Quran 2:117]

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No. Allah did not raise him up alive. He a.s died like other messengers before him died. He used to eat like other prophets used to eat.
To say that he is alive with his physical body...is not on earth, does NOT eat is associating partner with allah, which is SHIRK!. Alive is only Allah outside of Earth. Who does NOT require food to eat and is still alive is Allah alone. Who does NOT die is none other than Allah alone. To say these qualities are also to be found in ONLY one more person is shirk.

[QUOTE]
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad made a lot claims and there was no consistency in those claims.

I am posting 2 more statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; He claims that he is reincarnation of Prophet Muhammad (saw).
You guys believe in reincarnation??????

And Know that just as our Holy Prophet (saw) was sent in the fifth thousand (the 6th century A.D.), in the same manner he was sent in the sixth thousand(the 13th century A.D.) in the incarnation of the Promised Messiah." ( Khutba-e-lhamiah, Roohany Khazaen , Vol. 16, P. 270; Khutba-e-Ilhamiah, P.180, 1st Edition, Qadian, 1902)

"The Holy Prophet (saw) had two advents. In other words, you may say that one mission was in the reincarnated form. It was promised that the Holy prophet (saw) would be sent to the world once again and this was fulfilled by the advent of the Promised Messiah and the promised Mehdi."(Tuhfah-e-Golravia, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 17, P. 249;Tuhfah-e-Golravia, P.94, 1st Edition, Qadian, 1902)

I have some more similar material of Ghulam Ahmad’s utterances. If you deny these, I’ll get someone to post scanned copies of it for your and viewers benefit. – This will be done once you deny that above statements are correct.

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I have explained the true meaning of incarnation that He meant. The role of the name of Ahmad which was given to Muhammad PBUH was yet to be completed. Therefore, the explanation to the quotes above.

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Can you please give us the names of the parents of both? Please? Please? Pleaseeeee? See I have aske 3 times
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lol! this shows your level of maturity.
btw, is this the reason why the name 'Muhammad' is so common in the world? you never know which one is imam mahdi ? Really? If its the name you're after then i'm sorry but which Muhammad pbuh are you believing in ? when Jesus a.s is giving us glad tiding of a prophet with the name of "Ahmad" ? Buddy, i said the hadith in which holy prophet said his name will be my name, his parents name will be my parents name.. indicating his complete subordination to prophet Muhammad PBUH. Just to add to your knowledge , Ahmad also is Muhammad PBUH's name. Both have different meaning to it. In your scholar's books they have written that the role of Muhammad pbuh (glad tiding) is completed, now the hadith saying that his name will be my name etc, is indicating the 2nd name's role completion ( Ahmad ), ( the role of warning ).. thats a whole different topic and you need to spend some time to read Islamic literature to be able to discuss that with me.

[QUOTE]
Prophet Muhammad (saw) had done job to perfection and delivered complete Islam, nothing was left out.

*This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. *(Quran 3:5)

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completion of religion and favor does not mean completion of nabuwat. You are again mixing it up. Ever after believing this, you're waiting for Jesus a.s. Your mind is twisted my friend.

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Absolutely nothing could be added to Islam and nothing could be taken out. Any such deed would tantamount to rebelling against none other than Allah (swt) Himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jesus a.s's role will be to bring out true teachings of Islam even if that means contradicting Mullah's understanding of any belief. People with imaan in their hearts will listen to Jesus a.s, not scholars who will be the majority at that time.

Has anybody the right to reject authentic ahadith? Authentic ahadith are the very words uttered the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw)! “I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER.) That’s how Ghulam Ahmad will deal with authentic sayings of the Blessed Prophet Muahammad (saw)!

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You have used the word INDICATES – that show uncertainty!
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To us its certain. To you it should atleast indicate.

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Religion also gets divided when false prophets ‘arrive’. By following Ghulam Ahmad Mirza you have opted to be form his Ummah parted company with Muslims

With ‘Advent’ of BahaUllah, Bahais opted out. So, false prophets do divide the religion. History has ample proof of that.
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This is the behavior of prophets.

1) He is known as a pious person before his nabuwat period
2) He is told he is a prophet
3) He hesitate to take this responsibility.. tries to run away from it
4) He keeps getting revelations
5) He is told to go to his people and tell them. Upon accepting him as prophet, He suggest his followers to have patience as there will be tough times.
6) He announces His prophethood and bring signs from Lord in his favor
7) He then keep progressing in His mission

This is Allah's behavior towards his true prophets

1) He keeps the prophet under His shadow
2) He gives defeat to His opponents in every path of their lives
3) He give victory after victory to Him
4) He helps His mission to spread
5) He multiplies His followers
6) He does not let them down
7) He test His prophet with the most bitter opponents and help Him and His followers succeed
8) He bestows the blessing of Khilaafat to the prophet whom he promises.

Ummah has been proven to be divided after the coming of TRUE prophet.. not false prophet. When hes false, ummah needs to care less about it as Allah himself will take care of it as He promised. At one point the whole ummah is going on one path, then Allah send a prophet among them and from then creates differences. This difference of followers of prophet vs people who rejected Him has always happened in history.

Anway, rest of it later. Have fun reading..and do try to gain some knowledge with this post. Thanks.
Peace.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

All in all, i will continue to keep replying to your previous posts.. but for now, do give me a reasonable answer on verse 5:75 and 3:144. This is my 100th time asking psyah or you to explain me the verses.
Thanks.