Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
I saw "believers" prostrating before him.
if he or they did, he or they got it wrong because i am aware of one hadith in which Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) forbade it
however, i am also aware the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) also told us that prophethood finnished with him (saw), so i am aware of someone else who got it wrong, very wrong, with longterm effects
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
if he or they did, he or they got it wrong because i am aware of one hadith in which Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) forbade it
however, i am also aware the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) also told us that prophethood finnished with him (saw), so i am aware of someone else who got it wrong, very wrong, with longterm effects
Yes, Law giving Prophethood has finished, but that is another cup. You post a Video of a man who does probably not know that prostration before man is Shirk and then you come and tell all Ahmadis that you are aware of the fact who is wrong, very wrong. That makes sense.
In fact you know are not aware of the facts. Please save us from this hypocrisy.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Yes, Law giving Prophethood has finished, but that is another cup. You post a Video of a man who does probably not know that prostration before man is Shirk and then you come and tell all Ahmadis that you are aware of the fact who is wrong, very wrong. That makes sense.
In fact you know are not aware of the facts. Please save us from this hypocrisy.
he has distanced himself from those acts, which denotes his acceptance of the haq
yeah i look forward to exploring the 'other cup'
[QUOTE]
"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that Wahi which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. Rest of the Hadith, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol.19 p.140)
His main Criteria is that AHADITH SHOULD NOT CONTRADICT HIS WAHI!!!!!!!!
[/QUOTE]
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
he has distanced himself from those acts, which denotes his acceptance of the haq
yeah i look forward to exploring the 'other cup'
we can discuss this via PM. I do not want to derail this Thread.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace to you too Brother,
You thought that’s a great question?
Yes it’s looks great question if one is looking with ‘Ahmadi eyes’ 
Messenger of Allah (swt) with his utmost wisdom had warned people over and over again:
Coming of Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) was such a common knowledge among the Believers at that time that there was not need of naming any names.
Read the following again (Please this time remove the Ahmadi tainted glasses that you are wearing 
)
[quote=““Ibn Sadique””]
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
that's quite a lot that you wrote there, Ibn Sadique. Thanks for your time. I thought i will just stop at that point.. but you raised some points worth my response. I will write tomorrow inshAllah. Hope you read my reply with clear mind.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Popat Yes I did manage to write a lot (in fact quite a lot) 
– I did point out on the onset that:
Alhamdulillah, I think I managed to refute all that you and others (like you)had to say. Time is limited so, I don’t promise that I’ll be able to respond to your post. Of course you can say what you want but this is going to be very repetitive.
So, probably I’ll let you have the last say unless of course you state something very extraordinaire. (My fear is that you will do so )
But by saying the following you have inadvertently hit the crux the problem.
You, I mean Ahmadis claim to believe Prophet Muhammad (saw) to be superior to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, that’s just a claim, reality is different – there are enough statements from MGA that he is in reality the Second Advent of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and if I remember correctly the second advent is more enhanced!
As you state in the above quotation that you “believe in Him as prophet, what He said is a hujjat on us. We do not question what He (as) say” and you stated the following too, “we are not to question prophets”.
Without a doubt, and it is obvious to the viewers here that you are ‘slavishly loyal’ to the utterances of MGA BUT are questioning and rejecting the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (saw)!!!
Whereas I (and those like me) are ‘slavishly loyal’ to the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (saw)and rejecting everything MGA states.
You (Ahmadis) interpret Quran, ahadith and Sunnah in the light of “WAHI” received by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; therein in lies the problem between us.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace be upon you all,
I will collect all the Material available and then write something on this Issue. Expect my answer by end of Ramadhan insha’Allah. In the meantime you can check this out Refutation: The Anti-Christ of the Latter Days (al-Masih al-Dajjal) | Jihad of the Pen
We are jumping here and there, running in circles. That makes no sense.
Peace.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace Bigoi
What Ibn Siddique wrote made perfect sense to me …
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Bigoi
What Ibn Siddique wrote made perfect sense to me ...
I know that it makes sense to you if a JUST ruler kills and breaks. I know it makes sense that that my beloved Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is dead and the Ummah will be revived by a Prophet of the Bani Israel. I know that it makes perfect sense.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
mgaq wrote that belief in Isa AS still being alive is a mushrik belief, also he admitted that he held that belief previously (for a period of 50+ years aprox.) muslims have pointed out that Allah SWT has excluded mushriks from prophethood
Such a lame allegation. I remind you that this thread is not about what hz Ahmad (as) said or not said. We are not talking about this at all here. But regardless, please do review your imaan on muhammad pbuh and prophets before him. Muhammad PBUH in one of his ahadith said that whoever says that I (Muhammad PBUH) is superior to Yousaf bin Mati is a liar.. then after, He pbuh said that im superior to all the prophets. One of the hadith, Muhammad PBUH declared honey haram on himself, then later took back his words. Point is, you change your belief when Allah tells you to. After receiving the verse of him being khataman nabiyeen, he did not know he was khataman nabiyeen...now after 18 years.. he s.a.w said He pbuh was khataman nabiyeen even when Adam a.s was in the middle of His creation. So, my friend.. prophets tell people what the true belief is and should be when revelation is received to them. Isa a.s still being alive is a mushrik belief. Hindu is a hindu until he accepts Islam... Mushriq is a mushriq until he accepts what the truth is. Only difference is, he no longer remained mushriq, whereas people like you are happy being one.
Popat – I just managed to get some time so I am going to address all the issues raised by you.
I have nothing against Ahmadiyya jamaat – They can believe anything they want :) . Yes I am choosing on PURPOSE not to believe in Ahmadiyyat – The purpose is my Salvation in hereafter – So I choose not to follow blindly your ‘Pied Piper’ into self destruction.
Why should I go against the Quran and ahadith as it is the believe Muslims that Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum is alive?
You are not rejecting ahmadiyyat. I dont know who had put this in your head. I'm talking in accordance to Quran and ahadith. You are forcing yourself to keep Isa a.s alive so to always have a thing against jamaat. Accept what the Quran and ahadith is pointing to...not to have anything against jamaat..but to have salvation in hereafter. I dont care what Muslims belief is regarding Isa a.s. I'm telling you what Quran and ahadith is point to. You either accept the word of Allah and his messenger or you accept your scholars on no solid grounds.
[QUOTE]
All of the time you are interpreting the verses to meet your sect’s needs even though it doesn’t meet the following the following criteria
1) Interpretation should not clash with other verses of the Quran. The Quran indicates very clearly that it does its own explanation (tafsir) which is very clear and easy to understand. As the few ayahs clearly indicate.
*"And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)
“Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed?” (Qur'an 6:114)
“The words of your Lord are complete in its truth and justice. Nothing can change His words – He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would lead you away from the path of Allah. They follow nothing but speculation – they are merely guessing.” (Qur’an 6:115-116)
We have explained (things) in various (ways) in the Qur'an, in order that they may receive admonition, but it only increases their flight from the truth. (17:41)
And We have explained to mankind, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude, yet the greater part of mankind refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude ...](17:89)
And verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an all kinds of similitude, that perhaps they might reflect ...](39:27)
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude, but man is in most things contentious. (18:54)
2) Secondly one should understand the Quran as the Prophet (saw) explained it. (No pseudo-intellectual speculations or misinterpreting the verses allowed)*
The Qur’an makes it abundantly clear that the function of the Messenger is not merely that of a deliveryman who simply delivers the revelation from Allah to us. Rather, he has been entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating the same. This is a point mentioned in a number of verses in the Qur’an:
Therefore, Hadith explains, clarifies, and removes ambiguities about the Qur’an. Hence, once we reject the Hadith, we may never be able to figure out the whole meaning of the Qur’an.
[/QUOTE]
That's exactly what you're refusing. I'm telling you myself that Quran is the answer to your every question. It explains itself. You are the one who takes one verse and interpret it your way and then dont think about anythingggg else that Quran has to say... everything else to you is an 'exception' or a 'miracle'. I'm looking at the whole Quran for sure. You are not. Your interpretation contains contradiction with other verses. Mine does not.
[QUOTE]
3) Thirdly we use the Ijma As-Sahabah to understand any verse.
The onus is on you to prove that Ijimah As-Sahabah is in your favour – You will never find even an iota in your favour.
4) Fourthly, Qiyas and Ijtihad: Here nothing is in favour for your beliefs.
Misinterpretation of Quranic ayahs, twisting the ahadith, attributing incorrect narrations to the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) and using pseudo rationality and bogus logic doesn’t work in Islam.
Islam is faith of purity and righteousness; so it cannot be polluted with falsehood.
[/QUOTE]
You do not have ijmah of sahabah in your favor for certain. Neither ijmah, nor any hadith proving Him alive, nor any Quranic verse. You are relying solely on your holy scholars who has told u a belief and now you're trying your utmost best to defend it by basically rejecting quranic verses.. you cannot simply just say nething being incidental or miracles if quran does not approve of it.
Islam surely is a faith of purity. It is people like you who have made it seemed like a fairytale.. I'm here showing the pure side of Islam...and you're insisting on believing in a belief which has no room in Islam but merely believing because you've been told to. Sad!
These scholars can be counted on one hand. Just a drop in the ocean. It would have been interesting if you had posted stance of Javed Ahmad Ghamdi regarding Ahmadiyyat and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
There you go. Ghamdi, a perfect example. Have whatever perception of jamaat you like. But accept atleast from Quran what its telling you.
[QUOTE]
Trust me, I feel the same, it is beyond me to understand how you could blindly follow this man who in full of contradictions and a false prophet. But it is Allah (swt) who turns the hearts to the Truth.
I don’t need to change the topic and will not. What I quoted is from your esteemed books, penned none other than your hero.
See how is keeping himself on par with the Noble Prophet (saw)!!!!
In fact he had the audacity/nerve to claim that he is really Prophet Muhammad in the second coming!!!
Yes, you got it right! Muslims believe in finality of Prophet hood and that Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will come as Allah (swt) has WILLED it. No vacancy for any imposters.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claim is important for me as I must be aware of false prophets and it is my duty like upon any other Muslim to make people aware of this fitnah.
[/QUOTE]
We are NOT talking about Jamaat. If you have something to refute my arguments about Isa a.s death.. you're more than welcome to talk to me with Quran and ahadith or else writing paragraphs after paragraphs is of no benefit to you.
Keep all your claims about false prophet or whatever to yourself and learn to be polite and respectful towards other people's holy leaders. Just because you do not believe in someone does not give you the licence to say whatever that comes to your mind. I humbly request you to watch your words please.
You see, you are the one full of contradiction. NO vacancy available.. and yet Jesus a.s CAN come.. Either tell me that theres no prophet after Muhammad PBUH, and accept Isa a.s's death. OR dont say theres no vacancy. There sure is. You believe it to be so. Now, thats your definition that the same Jesus a.s will come back. See, the belief of mine is on different than yours. Only problem is the personality.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Huh?! Come again?
Isa a.s is prophet wheresoever he is. He a.s is also a prophet to bani israel ONLY. Quran is the ultimate book. It refers to isa a.s as prophet of bani israel so manyyyy times ! So he’s a messenger and allah did not cancel his prophethood.. ok .. now , he wont be coming as a messenger ? :S.. Confusion confusion. :halo:
When did i say there are no hadith about the coming of hz Isa a.s? 
This time around, you translated khataman nabiyeen from the narration of hz ayesha (ra) as ‘seal of prophets’, rather than ‘last prophet’… because you knew the next sentence is ‘do not say there is no prophet after him’. So there is… alright ! :). It is your interpretation that this refers to Jesus a.s..whereas this is a general statement Ahadith referring to Jesus a.s is the Messiah that will be sent IN muhammdi shariyah. We do not need a prophet sent to bani israel whose mission was only to be a messenger to bani israel.. to come to us and teach us Islam. Islam to you has no flaws.. you do not need Isa a.s either. Fact of the matter is, you are a great enemy of the blessings of Allah called prophethood. You cannot tolerate a person like you being a prophet. Rest assured, your belief is not in parallel to your inner condition. You will reject Isa a.s too on the same grounds that we do not need anyone to teach us anything.
I dont know whether to smile or cry the way you’ve been believing on stuff. All prophets claims prophethood. But hey, all these points are not even relavant when you believeeeee that he will be literally coming down from heavens physically !! Allah says that even if i were to show them all my signs, even then they will not believe. So yeah, keep on rolling !
You are wrong. He a.s told you the real meaning about the beliefs which needed attention through divine guidance. Again, your islam is not copyrighted that whatever you have been believing is the ultime truth. Dont spread wrong information.
Oh? I thought it was other way around. Wheres the evidence from Quran or hadith that he is alive ? 
I, on the hand have just debated on 3 of the verses from Quran showing that it indicates Jesus a.s’s death. Oh, wait, are you saying calling the incident ‘miracle’ or having ‘exception’ from the verse is your ‘evidence’ that He a.s is alive?
Irrefutable evidence? Please show me as I am a seeker of truth. I have no intention of believing in something which is wrong.
You people divided your religion. A division that occurs after the coming of a prophet is by the will of God and Allah is with the group of a prophet. That is not division. Prophet calls to people to gather under one flag of tawheed. Sects in Islam have no claimed divine guidance. A jamaat that is made after coming of any prophet is favoured by Allah almighty. Kindly do reflect upon it by thinking about the prophethood of Isa a.s , and Muhammad PBUH.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
You are being dishonest. Quran and ahadith are two things I have always talked to you with. We get this habit from Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as). You are being dishonest here. First criteria is Quran, second criteria is ahadith. Any hadith which contradicts Quran should not be taken as authentic. He said in support, we also present those ahaith which are according to Quran and do not contradict my wahi.
This is what conclusion you should have came up with:
Since his wahi were in accordance to Quran…the hadith which contradict Quran are not true. Do you give more preference to ahadith which contradict Quran superior to Quran itself ?
No one had shown such an extreme love for Muhammad PBUH like Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as). ALAS! if only you open your heart and eyes to see it.
You first tell me which point of view you would like to discuss this issue from ? From an ahmadi source or your source ? If its ahmadi source, then Adam (as) was not living in the heaven in which people go after their death. So thats out of question. If its from your source, then you cannot run away from the fact that Allah says 'therein shall you live" referring to Earth. So, first clear ur understanding about which side you are on
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
I have no intention of repeating same thing over and over. My request is pretty straight forward. I ask your interpretation on 3 verses in which im debating on. Dont beat bushes here and there. Explain it to me if theres such an incident where someone had lived outside of Earth without proper measure and still remained alive. 2) explain me the verse in which it says that Messengers before Muhammad have passed away.. 3) explain me in clear manner what the verse meant where it says that Messiah was just a messenger..messengers like him have passed away before him. I need answer to these questions before anything else.
You are purposely spreading false information. Have fear of Allah.
If a christian was to say the same to you that you are ‘slavishly loyal’ to the sayings of Muhammad PBUH and not think ..im not sure how your reaction to that would be like..
But yeah, we need to first understand if Hazrat Ahmad (as) was saying all this “AS” a prophet or not. If AS a prophet, then prophets are not to be questioned. Just like Muhammad PBUH is not to be questioned for whatever he said. Muhammad PBUH said that there is not a single group of people on Earth who were not warned of Dajjal by their respective messengers. Have you ever asked your scholars and questioned Muhammad pbuh’s prophethood by asking him to show you just 2 evidences from any of their books mentioning dajjal ? you dont ask right? why not ? Because he is hujjat to you as a prophet. Will you question Jesus (as)? Just curious
That is why… before raising any point, think once if you are not letting go islam from your hands.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
I want to know if what i explained in post 137 has anything wrong in it
Heres the link to that post again.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/562810-details-of-interpreting-verses-from-the-quran-and-obvious-blunders-7.html#post8980988
5:75 : The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.
In addition to my response to this verse in my post 137 (link given).. I would also like to add some more.
psyah has said that this verse was in response that jesus cannot be god since he ate and God does not eat. Ok thats fair enough.
God does not eat.. Jesus ‘used’ to eat. He does not eat anymore.
Messengers before him have died..so did He. But God does not die.
Why do you emphasis on one point and totally ignore the other point being made in the verse ?
It should be understood like this :
Since God does NOT eat and NEVER dies.. Jesus A.S ‘used to eat’ AND he died like other messengers. Therefore, he CANNOT be God.
You are giving christians a possibility to still say that He “CAN” be God by him still being alive. God refused even this little confusion by saying that He was just a messenger. messengers like him have passed away, and he used to eat. God neither eats, nor dies. Messengers die and they also eat.
This is the way of Allah. He explains his verses in a very clear way. Beautiful is His ways of conveying message.
Are you saying that only one condition of ‘eating’ applies to God and not of death ?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
I know that it makes sense to you if a JUST ruler kills and breaks. I know it makes sense that that my beloved Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is dead and the Ummah will be revived by a Prophet of the Bani Israel. I know that it makes perfect sense.
Peace Bigboi
That prophet of the Bani Israel that you have a horrible habit of disowning is our prophet (AS) more than the Bani Israel ... If he came now I would be there on his bidding inshaAllah ... but I will not follow a deceiver who calls himself Isa, Muhammad, Maryam, and more ... without any shame.
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace Bigboi
If someone ate food and never died can he claim to be God? What does it say in your aqeedah? For us eating food is a sign of being mortal … not being self-subsistent … eating food means one takes nourishment from something else other than what is within it … Even if that entity did not die … the true Muslims will never claim it to be God … because they know that God does not eat … so understand! You have no argument here … If Allah (SWT) so Wills He can keep Isa (AS) alive forever just like He promises to keep the jannatis alive forever …
You are fixated over one semi-aspect of Divine attribute … Allah (SWT) has no beginning, no mother, no end, does not eat … Muslims believe that Isa (AS) will eventually die, hada mother and ate food … even if we don’t believe him to die at all it takes nothing away from Allah (SWT) because the everlasting life of Allah (SWT) is within the Being of Allah … but if anything lives forever that is not Allah (SWT) it can only do so by Allah (SWT) providing that sustaining power.
You need to understand tawheed properly … and I recommend your leaders who bring this stale argument to do the same …
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Lets refer back to the verse again and talk to me from the verse. You need to realize the points that Allah is raising..
Look what Allah is saying.. its not about him alive for so many years making him God. Thats not the point this verse is making. 2 things needs to be understood in this verse. Eating and being alive. it is not me saying that if u dont do these 2 things, u can be god.. but rather god himself saying it. If Jesus used to eat like other messengers, he has died like other messengers as well..since God does not eat , nor does he die, Jesus cannot be God. Now tell me where am i making mistake ?
I cannot even believe what you said in bold red font. You telling me to understand tawheed? I tell you a basic meaning of what tawheed is.. it is to not associate any partner with Allah. It is to not say that such and such attributes can also be found in another person OTHER than GOD. I cant believe you’re not even thinking what you’re saying. Allah alone is immortal. There are attributes of Him which are only specific to Allah alone. If you say or believe anyone can get those attributes, is associating partner with Him. I warn you to ask for pardon from Allah for what you wrote.
Messengers like Messiah have died..and Messiah son of Mary was just a messenger like others. He cannot be God, since God never dies.
Messiah used to eat food.. Allah is paak from this.. He cannot be God since God never eats.
It is not about what my aqeedah is. One thing for certain is that all humans are mortal ! each one of us require food to eat, and die eventually. Same was the case with Jesus a.s as is clear from the verse. I dont know why you would even start to argue on this just for the sake of it.
But i still want a reasonable explanation of this verse from your side. Tell me what allah meant to say ‘used to eat’ and that messengers like him have passed away.. ?
According to you , in that verse, Does Allah mean He a.s used to eat .. but allah doesnt eat.. He a.s is still alive and so is allah?
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders
Peace Mr.Popat
Do you believe that Allah (SWT) cannot make His Creation last forever? The word Immortal does not exist in Arabic … We have other words to describe Allah (SWT) … The difference between two types of immortality are … Acquired immortality and Unacquired immortality … These two should not be confused.
To use the non-Arabic term Immortality as an Attribute of Allah (SWT) is a blunder.
Islam says all creatures shall taste death, but not necessarily remain dead …
Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders
Peace Mr.Popat
Do you believe that Allah (SWT) cannot make His Creation last forever? The word Immortal does not exist in Arabic ... We have other words to describe Allah (SWT) ... The difference between two types of immortality are ... Acquired immortality and Unacquired immortality ... These two should not be confused.
To use the non-Arabic term Immortality as an Attribute of Allah (SWT) is a blunder.
Islam says all creatures shall taste death, but not necessarily remain dead ...
Peace,
You're changing the topic here. I'm really expecting you to have your say on the verse.
[QUOTE]
5:75 : The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.
[/QUOTE]
Allah has not made humans to make them immortal. Whoever is born also dies. This is the nature of every living being. You are unnecessarily getting into an argument that has no basis.
Allah does not die, nor does he eat. Messengers like Messiah son of Mary a.s died like other messengers and He a.s used to eat. He a.s cannot be God.. fair enough...but not just with the condition of him not eating, but also that he a.s died too, like other messengers. What do you have to say about this?
Thanks.