Definition for FREEDOM of women

:salam:

I’ve read this quite a many times in threads. People talk about the freedom women have today, which they didn’t enjoy centuries ago.

What I am looking for is not only the status of women during the early Islamic era but in other cultures, countries, ancient, medieval, modern day times as well. Lets makes comparisons BUT WITHIN THE CONTEXT of the times and what different religions did to alleviate the status of women within the CONTEXT OF THEIR TIMES.

And most importantly, what does one perceive by the phrase FREEDOM OF WOMEN and how is this phrase construed within each religion. Does freedom of a gender have to be freedom from religion as well? How many of us will agree/disagree that one who is following religion is not considered within the context of FREEDOM from todays perspective.

Looking forward to some meaty discussions here. Please no name-calling or insults. I only welcome you to the thread if you are willing to have level headed discussion and open to different POVs and if you don’t make every reply into a myside or yourside type of argument.

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

great thread (and conditions:)) looking forward to seeing a good discussion taking place here, for i had similar questions as well.

There is no "definition" per say.

The whole idea is that both "MEN" and "WOMEN" express themselves to their fullest "God-given" potential.

That means if a Man decides to be a medical doctor, and he fulfills all the requirements, then he should be allowed in the med school regardless of his race, skin color, or religion, or sexual orientation.

Similarly if a Woman decides to be an astronaut, and she fulfills all the entrance requirements, then she should be allowed in the astronaut training programs, regardless of the fact that she is a woman.

However the rights of MEN and WOMEN are not etched in stone. Instead they change with time, depending on the prevailing circumstances.

And the biggest factor driving these rights is the "survival" of humans.

If the very survival is at stake that is so common in tribal societies, then both men and women would "willingly" lose their rights in return for safety and security offered by a Maulana or a tribal chief.

However the civilized societies set up an environment within their territories that allows both MEN and WOMEN to not worry about their immediate survival and thus they could excel in their chosen professions.

Many posters on this board ignore the prevalent culture when they discuss Islamic view of FREEDOM.

1400 years ago, there was a tribal culture, and within that context, Islamic teachings tried to give some improvements.

fast forward to 2010, and the advanced societies have moved on and no longer follow the tribal traditions.

And thus we have to rethink Quranic injunctions in today's context and not in the context of relatively primitive tribal atmosphere that existed 1400 years ago.

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

@Burqaposhx

I think I'm looking for a general themes first which can then be discussed in more specifics. From your post one theme I can extract is:

  • Freedom to choose any profession as a means of living

If yes, we can start knitting our web of details around this first theme for discussion.

Yes it is one of them, but you ought to expand your horizon a bit.

Freedom for Men or Women has many many aspects.

The first and foremost is that they should not b persecuted because of their gender.

they should not be denied opportunities in the society just because of their gender.

They should not be considered inferior, by just reading Quran out of context such as: Al rijalo Qawwamoon ........"

And if you haven't realized some of these basic things, gupshup is the last thing you need to look for your education.

Thank you.

OH! I'm not shortlisting anything ... I want to build up the list then we can discuss. I know this is a never ending topic, which is why I want to enlist a few things to discuss so we stray within the bounds of a discussion.

So our little list grows to:

  • Gender based professions
  • Gender based persecution

Should we start or is there more you want to add to the list. Anyone else?

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

Interesting ... no one wants to have a genuine discussion.

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

:salam: USResident

I think it is too difficult a topic to comply with … setting the rules for discussion before having a verbal fistup is too rigid for this motley crew. hehehe

Then being able to make comparative judgments on the status of women in each era … now that would require scholarly depth of knowledge and solid skills of making the parallels comparative. Who has time for that?

Walekum-As-Salam!

I have no idea where you would like to take the discussion but few questions I would like to throw out in this matter.

1- What is the meaning of freedom of women in context of present day ‘women freedom warriors’?

2- Why freedom concept is so hyped up about women everywhere?

3- Why in all discussions of women freedom men are brought as ‘comparison’??

4- Is copying exactly what men do considered freedom of women?

5- Are these ideas of freedom being thrown about women actually giving freedom to women?

6- Lastly as a sarcasm and fun:

Why do women like to imitate men (jobs, clothing, haircut, sports, etc.) and why those who do these, are considered ‘free’?

Why can’t women be women? :slight_smile:

This topic was DOA.

Freedom in today's context is totally different compared to the freedom in the context of nomadic societies of 1500 years ago.

This stuff is so basic like adding 2+2. As you won't need scholars sitting down and arguing if the answer will be 4, 4 and half, or 3. Those days are long gone when people would get stuck in minor things like definition of freedom.

Off course this is not true for many true blue orthodox groups. They are still stuck in the old rut, all in the name of religion.

It's not hyped up, trust me. You have to be a woman to understand that. Just as you have to be gay to understand how descrimination hurts their status as a group of people. You can't truly understand descrimination if you have never experienced it. Today, it's not about freedom in the west as much as it is about descrimination and injustice.

[quote]
3- Why in all discussions of women freedom men are brought as 'comparison'??
[/quote]

Because men are no more important than women. When you acknowledge men's abilities to do pretty much everything while neglecting ours as if we can't do much, you are denying us our RIGHTS and undermining our confidence. Men have dominated the world for so long because they are physically stronger than women. Women SHOULD be protected because they are weaker, but this doesn't mean you confine them to their homes.

[quote]
4- Is copying exactly what men do considered freedom of women?
[/quote]

No, who says women copy men? They are doing what they didn't have the freedom to do before. They were doing what men would have frowned upon 60 years ago. They are not copying they are doing what they could have done years ago, MEN just didn't let them.

[quote]
5- Are these ideas of freedom being thrown about women actually giving freedom to women?
[/quote]

What ideas?

[quote]
6- Lastly as a sarcasm and fun:

Why do women like to imitate men (jobs, clothing, haircut, sports, etc.) and why those who do these, are considered 'free'?
[/quote]

WHAT? How many women do you know who have haircuts like MEN? How many women do you know who dress like men? You have women working ALL types of jobs now, hardly any of them have men haircut or men clothing. Most career women are quite fashionable, they buy what's in style whether it's haircut or clothes. Going by what you said, either all men are gay or all women are butches. Which one is it?

[quote]
Why can't women be women? :)
[/quote]

What do you mean? What does it mean to be a woman? Why can't men be men? Just because we assigned these gender roles doesn't mean they ought to be that way forever. You just have to look at the kingdom animalia to understand this. There are many many species where the FEMALE hunts and the MALE protects the territory...so you have to ask yourself, aren't we the ones who set these roles?

Let me say few words here:

You seem to be confused of certain things and assuming a great deal in the matter.

In this matter of women's so called lib or fighting for freedom, a monster is created and women are hyped up to fight against this made up monster and they are fooled by the idea that fighting with this monster is the one of the most important thing to do in this world.

1- Men are no more important than women. It is your assumption.

2- Men's ability to do everything is your assumption. Tell me who says it?

3- Women can't do much? Who says it?

4- There is no denial of their rights either. Who denies their rights?

5- Yes men have dominated the world in many areas and will continue to in many areas. But there are so many other areas women do have important role to play and instead of playing those roles they want to imitate men and in return end up doing the double work.

6- Who wants women to be confined to their home? Where did you read it?

:) Give me examples of what they are doing now that they were not doing before so called freedom?

Give me examples what they could have done before and now they are doing?

Ideas which create a monster out of nothing. Read above examples.

You made a monster in your head again.
Where did I mention this what you wrote and how did you come in to this conclusion?

No need to get so serious.
What I simply said is that copying men in many ways is considered being free.
This includes jobs, dressing, sports etc.
Men don't usually do that. While a career woman is proud of wearing a jacket and tie and short hair like men. Well she is a"free woman!" A career man or businessman will not feel so proud of wearing skirt and have pierced ear or long hair. Men take no pride in playing "girly sports" but women feel 'free' if they are playing football ( a manly game). Golf was created by men for predominantly men. (Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden-a common interpretation), and yet women feel 'free' when they play golf. Why can't they create their own sport? Do you see the fun and light sarcasm here? ;)

I think it is women who feel inferior by themselves and try to mimic/imitate men to feel proud of themselves that they are 'free' and 'equal' to men.

Well, that is a great question I asked.
Why can't women be women?

What is wrong with that?

You mentioned about Females hunt and male protects the territory. So females have a role and males have another role even in other species. (even though I have a fundamental problem with giving other species examples and using them universally)

At any rate: didn't you just agree with 'assigning the roles' whatever they may be? :)

Please remember:

"Equality or Freedom does not mean Similarity!"

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

^BS…like I SAID! You HAVE TO be a woman to understand this. :rolleyes: If everything I have said is assumption then everything you have just written here is a mere assumption too. You will never understand this unless you are made to realize your self worth and have people around you who keep reminding you that you are no good. I could write a 4000 words essay here but I don’t have that kind of time. Step outside of your world and ask around and see what women of ALL nations have to say about this. It is anything but a hype. It is a very serious issue.

Anyways, I have read your other posts and since you don’t see how women are mistreated, discriminated against everyday, there’s no point in arguing with you..

:wsalam:

Haven’t heard from you in a while bro. I know its quite a difficult topic and truly I am also unprepared for it but definitely not afraid to delve into it though. I would expect your contribution. :slight_smile:

Why should one make comparison in context of the times, if the idea is to compare the present time with the past? Surely the comparison across time should not be rooted in the past (suggesting a bias in favour of the past?)

Really the only important question is what is meant by the term freedom. In whichever area of life men should have freedom, so should women.

Again you confuse the issue when you restrict that discussion to the female gender. The conflict between religious observance and freedom applies equally to men and women. Religious observance should be based on one’s belief and conscience, not socially defined gender roles.

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

Well then let's put forward a simple hypothesis ...

I believe the concept of equality of women has come from Islam and that at a time when women were considered property and in a time when infant first born girls were buried alive a message came from the cave upon the mount of Light, which spread around the world saying 'no' to these customs.

The world thereafter was illuminated and today we can speak about these topics because of Islam.

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

its a bit of a stretch to say it for the whole world psyah. What is defined as 'equality of women' came to the west much later, and at a burst (the status of women was very different from 1750 to 1850 to 1950) and its difficult to substantiate with specific people taking inspiration from the Muslim world for all of that.

we can make a much better argument for areas where Islam spread, that the lot of women improved.

Hold your thoughts Miss_Noland. Sorry for making you think somehow I don’t see women are mistreated. Never my intention and never my agreement with this.

I will get back to you when Psyah and USResient and Ravage are done with their discussions.

OR

Since US resident started this discussion and wants to continue the discussion in his way, I would like to get out of this thread and will discuss with you in another thread and another time. You start it or I may.

Fair enough?

With sincerity, so long my friend. Just hold on to the idea. :slight_smile:

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

I think this issue is really blown out of all proportion, the muslims will always brag that liberation of women came from them, the post-reformation christians will make the same claims.

[QUOTE]

phrase FREEDOM OF WOMEN and how is this phrase construed within each religion

[/QUOTE]

i think its more of a political and economic slogan than a religious one

the oppression is of weak by strong just as always, obviously women are weaker in most situations therefore their stories will be more moving to the audiences and they are cleverly exploited by both sides to further their agendas.

Re: Definition for FREEDOM of women

[QUOTE]
I believe the concept of equality of women has come from Islam and that at a time when women were considered property and in a time when infant first born girls were buried alive a message came from the cave upon the mount of Light, which spread around the world saying 'no' to these customs.

The world thereafter was illuminated and today we can speak about these topics because of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

islam like many other social revolutions before it gave a mssage of justice and hope to weak and oppressed (incluig women), but there is no "equality" of women as u seem to indicate.

But nowhere in islam are men and women 100% equal thats an alien concept for the most of human civilizations and this movement seems to be a mutation of communism which has spread in the recent decades like a cancer thru west

remember the peak of western civilization was late 19th and early 20th century and there was NO CONCEPT of equality of women at that time.Nor were women equal to men during the peak of muslim civilizations.