^ i dont think the late 19 and early 20th century was the peak of western civilization. it was the peak of their power, not civilization.
they treated their conquered peoples like animals, killed tens of millions of people in wars with themselves and others for no reason, exploited their people with propaganda techniques routinely brainwashing them with one dogma then the next. the time you speak of yes western women wouldnt be equal to western men, but you wouldnt have been equal to western men either.
Why should one make comparison in context of the times, if the idea is to compare the present time with the past? Surely the comparison across time should not be rooted in the past (suggesting a bias in favour of the past?)
Really the only important question is what is meant by the term freedom. In whichever area of life men should have freedom, so should women.
Again you confuse the issue when you restrict that discussion to the female gender. The conflict between religious observance and freedom applies equally to men and women. Religious observance should be based on one's belief and conscience, not socially defined gender roles.
My question was that I wanted to compare the among the different religions and cultures in the past and then see how each one contributed to the freedom of rights for the female gender against the excesses committed by their societies. You are suggesting that I change my topic of discussion. That is not what I asked. I want this discussion to be related to the female gender and not about FREEDOM in a general sense.
I think if you read the thread I was trying to come up with a list of gender based discrimnations against women and I want to confine the discussion to the listed points otherwise this thread will end up going nowhere and everywhere.
Can we start on the first point?
Gender based professions.
To start I think we first need to evaluate what kind of professions existed in the past and what exists today. Which profession were the women of centuries ago unable to particpate in and which ones today are they kept away from. What are the proportions of participation in similar professions on centuries ago and today?
Ravage can you stick with the topic of discussion please. And yes you may be right however then is the freedom of women propaganda over-rated then. I rarely ever hear of mens rights organizations. Again my intention is to compare were women really that bad off centuries ago as stated or are they no different today but just subject to different form of discrimination. I’m sure some of the points you want to make will automitcally creep into our discussions to gain leverage in our arguments so lets not argue about changing the theme of this thread. Can we agree to disagree later on?
Ravage can you stick with the topic of discussion please. And yes you may be right however then is the freedom of women propaganda over-rated then. I rarely ever hear of mens rights organizations. **Again my intention is to compare were women really that bad off centuries ago as stated or are they no different today but just subject to different form of discrimination. **I'm sure some of the points you want to make will automitcally creep into our discussions to gain leverage in our arguments so lets not argue about changing the theme of this thread. Can we agree to disagree later on?
My apologies, I was referring to your initial post which lent itself to counters such as the ones I posted.
Continue with the discussion. With respect to your points here, you dont hear of mens rights organizations, because you also dont hear, atleast till lately, of Caucasian rights or Upper Class Rights organizations. It is the group that has the power that doesnt need to argue/lobby for it.
Please go ahead and describe the women of centuries ago.
^ i dont think the late 19 and early 20th century was the peak of western civilization. it was the peak of their power, not civilization.
they treated their conquered peoples like animals, killed tens of millions of people in wars with themselves and others for no reason, exploited their people with propaganda techniques routinely brainwashing them with one dogma then the next. the time you speak of yes western women wouldnt be equal to western men, but you wouldnt have been equal to western men either.
i meant time just before ww1 , 1860s to 1914, after that is decline of the west.i disagree that 1860s-1914 wasnt the peak of western civilization.
regarding their barbarity they were no worse than many eastern conquerers and actually did a lot of good in many cases
and west still brain washes its people with dogma of political correctness and human rights so thats hardly ever gonna change in human history
i meant time just before ww1 , 1860s to 1914, after that is decline of the west.i disagree that 1860s-1914 wasnt the peak of western civilization.
regarding their barbarity they were no worse than many eastern conquerers and actually did a lot of good in many cases
and west still brain washes its people with dogma of political correctness and human rights so thats hardly ever gonna change in human history
well even between the 1860s and 1914 there were wars all over the place (indian war had just finished) etc. and the first world war's millions of deaths didnt come from a vacuum right, its still the same civilization.
i agree they were no worse than eastern conquerors but thats not really a great comparison to make is it? If you're being compared with other barbarians its safe to say you're atleast comparable to one!
most people that have been liberated from them dont remember them fondly. thats indicative of something I think.
you read their literature, not present day but from when it was written, and from the treatment of black people in US to the treatment of black/brown people by the colonialists, the attitudes are pathetic.
absolutely , but what about the glorious period of the east was a westerner equal to a ruling class arab or persian ?
true. i would say that any period where this sort of race based power structures were rampant could have been a time of glorious power, not glorious civilization.
anyway I think we are mucking up USResidents thread!
well even between the 1860s and 1914 there were wars all over the place (indian war had just finished) etc. and the first world war's millions of deaths didnt come from a vacuum right, its still the same civilization.
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ur right but thats the colonial wars mostly barring a few like prussian wars
killing non-europeans was not the moral equivalent of killing europeans.In the eyes of european rulers
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i agree they were no worse than eastern conquerors but thats not really a great comparison to make is it? If you're being compared with other barbarians its safe to say you're atleast comparable to one!
most people that have been liberated from them dont remember them fondly. thats indicative of something I think.
you read their literature, not present day but from when it was written, and from the treatment of black people in US to the treatment of black/brown people by the colonialists, the attitudes are pathetic.
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true true I am not morally justifying it , rather saying that freedom and morality are terms relevent to the times we live in, atleast from the non-religious humanistic perspective
Otherwise almost everyone who lived a century ago and yielded some power was morally corrupt and decadent by our standards today.
Not to mention the mass rape of Bosnian women by Serbian animals. Read the whole damn thing before making ridiculous claims about European enlightened wars.
The very first link is on the slavery and rape of African women by Europeans.
Move the goalposts now as if thats what you were talking about when you mentioned the Japanese in WW2. Oh but they didnt take them home, they just raped them in their homes! What the **** does that matter?
Heres your European ‘different and positive attitude’ towards Freedom of women.
**Systematic rape by armed forces
**
Excavation of a mass grave in eastern Bosnia. Civilian men from Foča were executed whilst women were detained and repeatedly raped by members of the Bosnian Serb armed forces.[10]
Judges from the ICTY ruled that rape was used by the Bosnian Serb armed forces as an ‘instrument of terror’. They declared that a “hellish orgy of persecution” occurred in various camps across Bosnia.[11]
*Early stages
*
Before the Bosnian war started Bosniaks (Commonly known as Bosnian Muslims) in Eastern Bosnia had already begun to be removed from their employment; be ostracised and their freedom to move was curtailed. At the outset of the war Serb forces began to target the Bosniak civilian population. Once towns and villages were secured the military, the police, the paramilitaries and, sometimes, even Serb villagers continued these attacks. Bosniak houses and apartments were systematically ransacked or burnt down while civilians were rounded up, sometimes being beaten or killed in the process. They separated men and women and detained many of the men in local camps.[10]
During the early investigations by the United Nations, in 1992, it became apparent that systematic rape was not random and had the support of commanders and local authorities.[12]
Many reports stated that the perpetrators said they were ordered to rape, or that the aim was to ensure the victims and their families would never return to the area. Perpetrators told the female victims that they would bear children of the perpetrator’s ethnicity. That they would become pregnant, and then be held in custody until it was too late to get an abortion. Victims were threatened that if they told anyone they would be hunted down and killed.[12]
*Houses and camps
*See also: Keraterm camp, Omarska camp, and Vilina Vlas#The camp
There were numerous rape camps in the town of Foča. “Karaman’s house” was one of the most notable rape camps. While kept in this house, girls were repeatedly raped. Among the women held in “Karaman’s house” were minors as young as 15 years of age.[10][13] In the findings of the Kunarac trial the appalling conditions of the detention centers being used for mass rape were described.[10]
Muslim women were specifically targeted as the rapes against them were one of the many ways in which the Serb forces could assert their superiority and victory over the Bosniaks. For instance, the girls and women, who were selected by convicted war criminal Dragoljub Kunarac or by his men, were systematically taken to the soldiers’ base, a house located in Osmana Đikić street no 16. There, the girls and women (some of them as young as 14 years old), were raped by Dragoljub or his men. The soldiers demonstrated a total disregard for the Bosniaks in general, and Bosniak women in particular. They removed many Muslim girls from the detention centres and kept some of them for various periods of time to rape.[10]
Radomir Kovač, who was also convicted by the ICTY, kept four girls in his apartment, abusing and raping three of them many times. “Kovač would also invite his friends to his apartment, sometimes allowing them to rape one of the girls. Kovač sold three of the girls …] . Prior to their being sold, he gave two of them …] to other Serb soldiers who abused them for more than three weeks.”[10]
One woman was taken by Serbian soldiers to the outdoor sport stadium in Foca. ‘There she was raped by 28 soldiers before losing consciousness. In addition the soldiers burned her body with cigarettes and cigarette lighters.’[14]
*Ethnic dimension
*
The rape campaign of the Serbian militias had an ethnic dimension. Early United Nations investigations concluded that “Rape has been reported to have been committed by all sides to the conflict. However, the largest number of reported victims have been Bosnian Muslims, and the largest number of alleged perpetrators have been Bosnian Serbs. There are few reports of rape and sexual assault between members of the same ethnic group.”[12] It has been claimed that ‘For the Serbs, the desire to degrade, humiliate, and impregnate Bosnian Muslim women with “little Chetniks” was paramount.’[15] Women were forced to go full term with their pregnancies and give birth.[15] Many of the reports of the abuses illustrated the ethnic dimension of the rapes.
One case had a Serb soldier telling a Bosnian woman he was raping, “You should have already left this town. We’ll make you have Serbian babies who will be Christians.”