Re: Defacing Mecca
Biggest Sign of Qayamat is that the Qaabah will remain low and buildings will be higher. tahts exactly whats going on.
these rooms will cost hundreds and even thousands of riyals per night and they will have "servcies" such as massage functions and private dances. the saudis seem to forget the importance of the holy land and take it for granted.
but, cant do jack coz it is ruled by idiots in white robes.
Re: Defacing Mecca
------------------------------cvabn-----------------------------
Archangel !Some good and valuable facts and I must say the ‘Shirk’ ridden folks here might not get the essence correctly, they did not get any thing right for that matter. Thanks to GS they now have a platform to bring their true selves to the limelight. Kudos !
I have lived in Saudi Arabia for 18 years and have performed hajj and almost 40-50 times umrahs alhamdulillah. I use to drive to Mecca at will and whenever I could get time-out. I know what I’m talking about !
On numerous occasions I met and came across pilgrims from Pakistan specifically asking for ‘totkas’ such as ‘khaak-e-shifa’ (Dirt from the sacred grave yard/s) around Mecca & Medina.
I have seen ‘Saudi Mutawas’ Saudi Religious Police beat up pilgrims who were seen 'collecting, consuming, hoarding such matters in their baggage.
I saw a significant change in respects for Pakistani pilgrims showing such poor faith. Then we all observed the sudden influx of ‘beggars & con artists’ begging around the kaba itself (Personally witnessed on more than 5-6 occasions)
Most violators were caught and trhown into the prison, and one crime that stood tall among many was ‘Abusing Umrah visa’ violators overstaying their visa limits.
I witnessed the sudden change of Saudi attitude towards Pakistanis.
During the same period (I’m guessing around 1980-81) Gulam Sabri - Qawal & Co. requested permission to recite their famous “”“Bhur day jhooli meri, Yah Mohammad -Na jaoun ga mai haath khaali “”” Qawali in front of Prophet’s Mohammad PBUH hujra.
Saudi’s took serious note of the request and ‘banned’ Sabri brothers from ever obtaining Saudi visa.
Then there was this Hoohaa about 'deobandi sects from Pakistan declaring that all 'salats (namaz) behind Imam-e-Kaba were not valid and must be redone. At this point in time Saudis were quite busy with Iranian propaganda
against them and also saw a bloody massacre in Mecca city where Iranian numerous Hajis were shot/killed/stampeded.
Such bogus and shirk-laden rituals were only attributed towards Pakistanis and at least one more Muslim nation Sudan!
Hatred for Saudis is not uncommen abroad or with-in the country for various reasons. How they(saudis) have spent their wealth on their own citizens is quite evident and cannot be taken for granted, Its extraordinary!
Why Pakistanis Hate Saudis so much ? This questions should be viewed and answered in the context of Wahabi & Hanfi differences or more !!!
I enjoy reading your view points. Please keep posting even though mine don’t make any sense to the block-heads!
Re: Defacing Mecca
dupe
Re: Defacing Mecca
Biggest Sign of Qayamat is that the Qaabah will remain low and buildings will be higher. tahts exactly whats going on.
these rooms will cost hundreds and even thousands of riyals per night and they will have "servcies" such as massage functions and private dances. the saudis seem to forget the importance of the holy land and take it for granted.
but, cant do jack coz it is ruled by idiots in white robes.
-------------cvabn-----------------
How can you say that, where/what is your evidence ?
What if you are wrong ? can you hold your peace than ?
Re: Defacing Mecca
In Islam, we go out of our way to avoid temptations to our Iman. Men and women pray seperately, women must wear burqa or hijabs, we ban alcohol from being sold because we believe it will challenge our Imaan , and the list goes on. Yet Glitz and glamor in mecca is something we should accept!?!?! Doesn't seem to jive with the Islam as most of us know it. Islam generally bans, or at the very least, warns us to avoid that which is a danger to our Iman, and that includes immodest extravagances like this one in Mecca.
By the way Mr Islamic expert, you do know that modesty is a virtue in Islam dont you? What is modest about this project?
Again hyperbole. If a replica of Big Ben in Mecca tempts you, your iman is weak to start off with. That is not the fault of the Saudis, but a personal characteristic that can not be fixed. If you live in the West you are tempted day in and day out. Bars, clubs and the rest. Yet you and I both visit them on a regular basis and well my iman stays strong. Yet a clock tower in Mecca tempts you.
Re: Defacing Mecca
Again hyperbole. If a replica of Big Ben in Mecca tempts you, your iman is weak to start off with. That is not the fault of the Saudis, but a personal characteristic that can not be fixed. If you live in the West you are tempted day in and day out. Bars, clubs and the rest. Yet you and I both visit them on a regular basis and well my iman stays strong. Yet a clock tower in Mecca tempts you.
I am not going to speak in favour of/against this. But I would like to take exception with what you've said about temptation. Yes, temptation is all around us but that does not mean we should ignore it or be okay with it. By your logic I can go in a strip club, I can watch porn, I can be around alcohol but hey! If I don't actually get a lap dance, get a hard on or drink the booze, I'm okay. That is not correct by any means. You still technically aren't supposed to do that or be there. He's right. In Islam we place a very strong emphasis on removing the temptations because Allah knows His creation. We're weak and our Nafs gets in the way of our Imaan.
P.S. Ofcourse I base my post from the Islamic perspective. And in no way am I implying I'm a 'model Muslim'.
Re: Defacing Mecca
So essentially you are saying we should remove all forms of temptation period? If that is the case, the first thing we should do away with is with the concept of wealth generation and monetary income. But the point I was making is that temptation will remain in this world. It doesn't have to be limited to gender relations or alcohol. You are tempted day in and day out to do something other than pray, fulfill religious obligations regularly. Either you succumb to that temptation or you retain your moral character and ignore it. Specifically in the West where you are the minority, your faith and culture are equal to others. You can not force your will and view on others so yes you ignore it. That is the only thing to do.
My point from the start is that a replica of Big Ben provides no temptation to the people visiting the Kaabah. The Kaabah should take away the breath of any Muslim, and if you are frankly distracted by "Big Saudi Ben" then you don't have your head on straight.
Re: Defacing Mecca
Correct. From an Islamic perspective, we are required to rid our surrounds of all temptation; It is infact required. Money is not temptation as in it can be used for good. Also, agreed that temptation will be there as it always has been. And indeed all around the world we will be faced with challenging situations and of course it is a test of our Imaan and the righteous will be justly rewarded. My point was 'placing' oneself in a scenario voluntarily when there are other options is definitely not something commendable.
Yeah I agree with you. Before the Kabah, this ain't squat. Although I will say its in horrible taste, very noveau riche! And this from someone who supports the Saudis spending money as they please.
Re: Defacing Mecca
i went in 2006 for Umra and i seen quite shocking sights with my own eyes.
i remeber one guy coming up to me and asking me if i wanted to purchase some cigarettes (as they are not publicly available so it is all hush hush). once i purchased cigarettes he asked me if i wanted some women!!! i thought WHATTTTT!!! this is supposed to be the holy land! i then asked my friend who takes Hajj and Umrah groups to saudi several times a year and he told me that there is a market for that!
i stumbled accross these articles on site.
Re: Defacing Mecca
true say.
majority of the beggers are from the Kashmir region and a lot of people did approach me and my friends asking for money. using excuses such as they are poor, they havent had anything to eat etc etc. for those i dont have any respect because you are in the vicinity of Allah SWT house. the shrine where all muslims face 5 times a day. if you should ask, surely wouldnt you ask the Lord himself as you are there?
quick question Raindance, i did notice some degree of hostitily between pakistanis and saudis. when i came back i did some research and came accross an article that illustrated an instance in the 70’s when Mecca sharif was seized by Abdullah Hamid Mohammed Al-Qahtani and was supported by Pakistan students studying theology. do you think that could be a factor why there is a certain amount of anamosity between saudis and pakistanis?
Peace Out
Re: Defacing Mecca
Again hyperbole. If a replica of Big Ben in Mecca tempts you, your iman is weak to start off with. That is not the fault of the Saudis, but a personal characteristic that can not be fixed. If you live in the West you are tempted day in and day out. Bars, clubs and the rest. Yet you and I both visit them on a regular basis and well my iman stays strong. Yet a clock tower in Mecca tempts you.
Its seems that everything that doesnt make sense to you is hyperbole.
If your iman is so weak that you cant look at a woman without thinking of Shirk, then the problem isnt with women, its with your Iman. Yet, in Islam we separate men and women at every instance. Women must cover their hair, or wear a complete burqa.
A bar, with all the liquor in the world may be tempting, but the problem isnt with the bar, its with your weak Iman. Yet in Pakistan, we have banned Alcohol! I doubt you would support a law making liguor legal again?
It odd that Muslims insist of separating themselves from Shirk at every opprtunity, yet in this case you say we should embrace it?
Now the Shirk of this Big Ben replica is in the fact that its a distraction from your prayer. Just like women are a distraction, as is alcohol, as are a number of other things that Muslims avoid due to the potential for Shirk. The problem isnt that its a big ben replica, its that its too massive, it dwarves the Kabba, and its really in bad taste. Islam is about being humble, about modesty. Yet this massive building is nothing more then a testament to the self-indulgent ego of the Saudis.
Now im not against big buildings, and on some level I agree that your iman should be stronger then temptation, but this particular project really is way to big, to overwhelming, and uneccesary. It says more of Saudi extravagance then should be permited.
Re: Defacing Mecca
So essentially you are saying we should remove all forms of temptation period? If that is the case, the first thing we should do away with is with the concept of wealth generation and monetary income. But the point I was making is that temptation will remain in this world. It doesn't have to be limited to gender relations or alcohol. You are tempted day in and day out to do something other than pray, fulfill religious obligations regularly. Either you succumb to that temptation or you retain your moral character and ignore it. Specifically in the West where you are the minority, your faith and culture are equal to others. You can not force your will and view on others so yes you ignore it. That is the only thing to do.
My point from the start is that a replica of Big Ben provides no temptation to the people visiting the Kaabah. The Kaabah should take away the breath of any Muslim, and if you are frankly distracted by "Big Saudi Ben" then you don't have your head on straight.
We cant remove all temptation obviously, but where we can avoid it, we should. This overwhelmingly massive building could have been avoided and should have been avoided.
Another words, this thing they built, shouldnt have been built.
Personally I think it may actually take away from the kabba because this thing dwarfs it.
When the most impressive object infront of you isnt the kabbah but the Saudi Big Ben, then that is a problem.
Re: Defacing Mecca
------------------------cvabn-------------------------
Thank you for your sentiments!
Let me start by saying this !
Oil or no Oil the land of Hijaz (Saudia Arabia) was no where like what it is today, people had their ‘bedouin’ lives and had all they needed to survive and and at the same time ‘upheld’ pure Islamic values due to one simple reason
They had no source of dilutions or “flexible additions” to the religion that promised itself to be “Complete & Final” & "Prophet Mohammad pbuh as the absolute "Last Messenger of Allah swt.
This is the pivoted belief and faith they cherished for centuries.
The later I see in the context of these bedoiun, business caravan travelers who walked and rode their camels caravans across the deserts to conduct their normal activities of business AS DONE BY THE PROPHET MOHAMMAD PBUH
himself. Same routes and same paths, same goods and same business ethics.
Hijazis were always used to hardships and never saw poverty because to you and me poverty means not having ‘Worldly Possessions’
By this commentary I wanted to make it clear that 'Old Hijazi Generation and the Modern Hijazis cum Saudis are the same chip of the block and always had a ‘Strong Character’ which ever way you want to look at.
Like any other nation of the world ‘They’ have also seen lots of turmoil and political unrests and fought wars they never wanted. And like any other nation of the world ‘They’ also choose sides and friends learned the definiotion of friend & foe hence their ‘reaction’ would be justified’ in the best interest of the Nation be it Abdulaziz dynasty or the Sauds.
I’m sorry but their ain’t no short answers to such questions. Peace
For more images of ‘devastating floods of Mecca Valley’ please vist ‘Image Gallery’ will post some more in a day or two.
Re: Defacing Mecca
Thank you for your sentiments! Let me start by saying this ! Oil or no Oil the land of Hijaz (Saudia Arabia) was no where like what it is today, people had their 'bedouin' lives and had all they needed to survive and and at the same time 'upheld' pure Islamic values due to one simple reason They had no source of dilutions or "flexible additions" to the religion that promised itself to be "Complete & Final" & "Prophet Mohammad pbuh as the absolute "Last Messenger of Allah swt. This is the pivoted belief and faith they cherished for centuries. The later I see in the context of these bedoiun, business caravan travelers who walked and rode their camels caravans across the deserts to conduct their normal activities of business AS DONE BY THE PROPHET MOHAMMAD PBUH himself. Same routes and same paths, same goods and same business ethics. Hijazis were always used to hardships and never saw poverty because to you and me poverty means not having 'Worldly Possessions' By this commentary I wanted to make it clear that 'Old Hijazi Generation and the Modern Hijazis cum Saudis are the same chip of the block and always had a 'Strong Character' which ever way you want to look at. Like any other nation of the world 'They' have also seen lots of turmoil and political unrests and fought wars they never wanted. And like any other nation of the world 'They' also choose sides and friends learned the definiotion of friend & foe hence their 'reaction' would be justified' in the best interest of the Nation be it Abdulaziz dynasty or the Sauds. I'm sorry but their ain't no short answers to such questions. Peace
glad to know that there are members on this forum that speak with intellect and not inner feelings.
respect bruv. peace out
Re: Defacing Mecca
errr...thanks for the lecture but I happen to have a degree in business and know the diff b/w revenue and profit.........u wud think that Saudis dont need that money since they got oil but Hajj is listed as the single biggest EARNER for the kingdom after oil and u r speculating that ALL the revenues are reinvested back (reinvested in Les Vegas, may be).........pilgrims are charged over US$600 each.........now try doing the maths! they can make as many as 30 Haramain Train projects only by what they earn in a year of the pilgrims! and btw many services such as the Haramain train are paid services therefore they r self sustained ..........and for the record this year the train was in function but it was 'Arabs Only'.........show ur passport and enjoy the service........... as for the skyscrapers........they exist for the ease and comfort of the 'rich'...........do you have any idea what their charges are? they charge as much as staggering US$9,000 a week! And yes......I do not exactly love a bandit tribe from Najd ruling over the Muslim holy sites and one that destroyed Muslim heritage and continues to be the single biggest exporter and supporter of terrorism around the world.............
-------------------------------cvabn-------------------------
If you know business then you would also know seasonal trends, supply and demand, plus your sarcastic harsh words & demeanor
Off Season such Hotel room cost me 1200 Saudi Riyals with 4 family members = SAR 240.-- each
In Season same room would cost SAR 2500+ @ SAR 500.-- each (Very small price to pay when you take your Mom & Dad and you want to give them the best comfort ever)
Most hotel rooms are custom designed to accommodate a "family' rather than a single person, then again if you can not afford it go and live in a tent which are getting very comfortable at a reasonable rate but the commute from 'Tent City' to Mecca every day is long and time consuming
Errrrr,,, Cut this crap Pal ,,, Open another Thread "My Saudi Vendata" and I'l join you there ,,,,,,,,,,,
Re: Defacing Mecca
glad to know that there are members on this forum that speak with intellect and not inner feelings.
respect bruv. peace out
What the hell is a Bruv?
Re: Defacing Mecca
You have not even touched any of the points the person has raised. The Saudis arent your masters, then why are you so offended when someone critisizes them?
I sincerely would love to know why you defend them so? What are they to you?
Is your loyalty with Islam or to the SAUDIS? Seriously man “cut the craP” as you put it.
For example, why is the train for Arabs only?
By the way, I agree, lets open another thread called Our Saudi Vendetta.. We can discuss why we everyone hates them.
Re: Defacing Mecca
Errrrr,,, Cut this crap Pal ,,, Open another Thread "My Saudi Vendata" and I'l join you there ,,,,,,,,,,,
LOL. This will be interesting.
What the hell is a Bruv?
"Bruv" - an abbreviation of the term "Brother".
Re: Defacing Mecca
*During the same period (I'm guessing around 1980-81) Gulam Sabri - Qawal & Co. requested permission to recite their famous """Bhur day jhooli meri, Yah Mohammad -Na jaoun ga mai haath khaali """ Qawali in front of Prophet's Mohammad PBUH hujra. Saudi's took serious note of the request and 'banned' Sabri brothers from ever obtaining Saudi visa. * Then there was this Hoohaa about 'deobandi sects from Pakistan declaring that all 'salats (namaz) behind Imam-e-Kaba were not valid and must be redone. At this point in time Saudis were quite busy with Iranian propaganda against them and also saw a bloody massacre in Mecca city where Iranian numerous Hajis were shot/killed/stampeded. Such bogus and shirk-laden rituals were only attributed towards Pakistanis and at least one more Muslim nation Sudan!
Why Sabri brothers were banned from obtaining Saudi visa? it means that they can never perform Hajj?
Re: Defacing Mecca
Why Sabri brothers were banned from obtaining Saudi visa? it means that they can never perform Hajj?
--------------------------cvabn----------------------
Can't say any thing further on that, but 'Roza-e-Rasool pbuh' is not considered a place where such events should be taking place. Think about it !