Defacing Mecca

kakaballi · January 11, 2011, 3:14am

Re: Defacing Mecca

A stupid Idea... Instead of developing outskirts and improving transportation system, they are trying to minimize the spiritual effects of visiting the Grand Mosque and areas around it.

Med911 · January 11, 2011, 3:16am

Re: Defacing Mecca

Exactly.. What was the point of this building this thing?

system · January 11, 2011, 4:27am

Re: Defacing Mecca

Med911:

I should think its common sense mr Archangel. Or do you honestly think that Mecca was meant to be controled by the Saudis? I mean, using your mind and common sense is not a sin you know.
The reason things sound random to you is because you choose not to think, but respond. If you actually took a second to consider the point, it may not sound so random to you…

My point is quite simple, and I will make it simple for your sake. This huge development is gaudy and ugly. It really defaces the entire area. The Saudis should be a little more considerate of what they build since the site is of such immense importance to so many people.
The problem is that the Saudis, whos intentions are motivated entirely by their own extremist brand of Islam, have very little consideration for others, for history, for culture etc. They build thing with no consideration for the significance of the sight.

You in your gushing love affair with the Saudis may not realize this, but its a valid point. If you can show me that this sight has no significance to other Muslims, then I will agree with you.

We arent asking them to quit all development there, that would obviously be irrational. All we want is some degree of sensitivity. Not to be so callous in what is built. Now you can go fall at the feet of the Saudis if you like, but I wont.

And what dumb thing to say. The Pope is the spiritual leader of all Catholics and is considered Gods spokesperson on Earth.
The SAUDIS are not consdered Islams spiritual leaders, and they certainly arent God SPOKESPERSONS! You not only need to work on your basic logic skills, but I would also suggest an undergrad Comparative religion course.

Okay this is just getting irritating now. Conjecture, assumptions and illogical statements passed off as facts. You do realize as a Muslim we believe all that happens, happens by the will of Allah. So if Saudi Arabia is in control of Mecca it is in fact divine will, according to our belief system.

Okay let me get this straight. The building of a gaudy mechanical monstrosity is in fact part of the an extremists agenda?

According to your logic, the spirituality of the Kaabah was also tainted when they put in escalators

Raindance · January 11, 2011, 5:21am

Re: Defacing Mecca

----------------------cvabn------------------------

LISTEN PAL ! And get this through your thick head, if you have one ! This is NOT ME we are discussing here. We are NOT talking about WHAT is RIGHT TO ME,,or WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT. How dare your put me in that spot ??

Do you really think that Allah swt HAS GIVEN ANY CHOICES WHEN ONE PRACTICES SHIRK ??? Or Do you think Allah swt has flawed the mere conception of his (swt) Deen ?? .
I think you are totally off balance with "wahabis' as the custodians of the holy sites and not your 'Jahil' Pakistan culture of Mazaars & Dirgaahs , Shame on you .
Kudos to Saudis/Wahabis for giving their population the basic needs of life, give them Health, Safety, Jobs, Business, Best education & The best amenities of life.
No one in the arab world sleeps on the streets or is homeless, hungry and with no hope of getting food,,,, !
What do you have in your democratic system ! Your floods effected IDB are stilll waiting for help food and shelter ,,,,,,,
Pay more attention there rather than spending time here with your "own version of Islam"

You are totally and very well brainwashed by the people you hang out with. Who know you might be the sleeping cells and just waiting for your turn to go to some mosque and Bllooow your self up ! Fanatics

Raindance · January 11, 2011, 5:54am

Re: Defacing Mecca

Med911:

The reason no one is holding mass protests is because most people are drones. They are incapable of criticizing other so called Muslims. Its the same reason the Saudis can get away with all kinds of nonsense like this BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue
in the name of Islam, and people like you just support them blindly.

And yes, this development is to big, and to ugly, and many people agree with me. But the problem isnt this development, its essentially the fact that the Saudis dont give a damn what anyone else thinks. They have literally taken over the sight, and the reason is because people like you, who apparently cant understnd that this sight is actually important to ALL Muslims, let them get away with this garbage simply because they have beards and claim to be divinely inspired. Most Muslims never protest anything, unless its something they think has been committed by Non Muslims.

Honestly man, are you really arguing in favor of this sight because you feel its ok, or are you arguing in favor because you love the Saudis to much to ever criticize them? Its really sickening how you grovel at their feet.

And the form of practice that Islam takes in Pakistan has been here for HUNDREDS of years. It has been the prominent and popular form of worship well before the establishment of Pakistan. If anything has been distorted, its this peaceful form of Islam that has been disfigured by the extremist ideology espoused by “nutters” like you.

-----------------------cvabn--------------------------

What exists in Pakistan is a total shame and disgust (Seeing with my own eyes)
If a wrong and "shirk-full practice are being done for hundred years or so> does not make them CORRECT & AUTHENTICATED !

Yet you lead heads wont recognize 'Allah’s Revelation even if it was put in from of your faces. You are such Block-Heads

Pathan_Bhai · January 11, 2011, 6:17am

Re: Defacing Mecca

G W Bush twisted war doctrine went something like this; "Osama and Talibayn are the bad guys and they are hiding in the caves of Efghaynistan, so we are going to bomb the whole country".

Its of little irony that their buddy boys, i.e. Saudis, are demolishing Islamic sites (and I am not talking about the sky scrappers and what have you!) using their own twisted and hyperbolic interpretion of shirk and Islam at large. Whats amazing is that some of our very own self-loathing countrymen fall of that sort of bullsh*t (most being illiterate!).

Med911 · January 11, 2011, 2:40pm

Re: Defacing Mecca

Easy solution for you... Get the hell out of Pakistan then.

Med911 · January 11, 2011, 2:43pm

Re: Defacing Mecca

Raindance:

----------------------cvabn------------------------

LISTEN PAL ! And get this through your thick head, if you have one ! This is NOT ME we are discussing here. We are NOT talking about WHAT is RIGHT TO ME,,or WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT. How dare your put me in that spot ??

Do you really think that Allah swt HAS GIVEN ANY CHOICES WHEN ONE PRACTICES SHIRK ??? Or Do you think Allah swt has flawed the mere conception of his (swt) Deen ?? . I think you are totally off balance with "wahabis' as the custodians of the holy sites and not your 'Jahil' Pakistan culture of Mazaars & Dirgaahs , Shame on you . Kudos to Saudis/Wahabis for giving their population the basic needs of life, give them Health, Safety, Jobs, Business, Best education & The best amenities of life. No one in the arab world sleeps on the streets or is homeless, hungry and with no hope of getting food,,,, ! What do you have in your democratic system ! Your floods effected IDB are stilll waiting for help food and shelter ,,,,,,, Pay more attention there rather than spending time here with your "own version of Islam"

You are totally and very well brainwashed by the people you hang out with. Who know you might be the sleeping cells and just waiting for your turn to go to some mosque and Bllooow your self up ! Fanatics

Listen BUDDY. Get this through your thick head. We the PAKISTANIS dont want YOUR twisted and extremist idieology infecting our society. Listen genius. Your the one committing SHIRK by claiming to know what Allah wants. You DONT know. What you think you know, is your twisted interpretation and nothing more. So keep your shirk to yourself.

This is all about YOU. It has nothing to do with Allah SWT. You have your interpretation, and its a very narrow minded one. How disgusting that you would stoop to claiming YOUR twisted views are endorsed by Allah SWT!
We peace loving Pakistanis have ours, and this has been our tradition for centuries.

You can be as condescending and arrogant as you want, BUT YOU, yeas YOU, dont own God or Islam. So if you dont like it, you can go live in Saudia Arabia.

The reason the Arabs arent sleeping on the streets is because they have OIL! Its has nothing to do with their version of Islam! Why dont you go visit the countries that DONT have oil and see how they are living!

The only one being a Jahil here is you, with you pathetic over enthusiastic endorsement of Saudis and their ilk.
Meanwhile, I will gladly live on the streets. Better living on the streets, then espousing an extremist and jahil Islam that YOU believe in.

Your custodians are IDIOTS. The Saudis are some of the biggest scum on this planet, but you wouldnt know that ofcourse.
Have a nice day, hope I got through that thick skull of yours.

Now run off. Go worship your Saudi masters.

Med911 · January 11, 2011, 3:05pm

Re: Defacing Mecca

LOL.. Why dont you point to one thing you disagree on? I mean, why be so condescending?

And Really? LOL.. Archangel, why dont you lay down and die then? If everything is the will of god, then that means you will never fight anyone, or anything, because its Gods will! What nonsense!
Allah SWT has ordered us to fight oppression, and fight for justice, not accept it as GODS will. So obviously, everything isnt in accordance with Gods will or else we would have been ordered them to accept it. The SAUDIS control Mecca because it divine will? So they can basically do whatever they want, and you basically accept it?

Now dont be foolish. When did I say it was a part of an extremist agenda?
And no, I never said anything about escalators. Im specifically talking about this project. Dont put words in my mouth.

Try to think for a moment. Be reasonable. God also gave you a mind. So please use it. I actually consider you one of the few Sane religious people on this forum.

I said this project is far to large, and unnecessary. They could have done a number of other things to make it less overbearing. But this is to much.

My complaint is only that the Saudis do things like this with considering the sensitivity of the site. Escalators are one thing, but this overbearing monument to Saudi hubris is just ugly.

I know I piss you off with my oppinion, but bare with me and try to understand my point instead of attacking me with garbage.

system · January 11, 2011, 4:00pm

Re: Defacing Mecca

Understanding the faith is very difficult, one obviously realizes that when reading what is stated on this website, considering people have great difficulty in accepting basic principles such as territorial integrity. At the end of the day the subject matter boils down to this:

Saudi money
Mecca is part of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
They can do whatever they wish.

Is it a waste of money considering other pressing need? Sure. But does it affect the sanctity of the Kaabah and religious piety? Pfft no. It is part of the city and not part of the Holy site. But then again you are hell bent on a vendetta against anything the faith and those who hold religious sentiments. That is pretty evident. So finding something to ridicule in a religious society is par for the course.

As for accepting divine will. It is what Muslims are taught. Allah is the great creator. He knows all and sees all to paraphrase the bible. So yes I do consider it his divine will. I also consider it his divine will when something bad or good happens to me as a person regardless of what I do or do not do.

The essence of faith is accepting that Allah or God decides. Christians get that. Jews get that. Sadly ABCDs don't. Shame really that you can be born into a faith but know so very little about it.

gosensgo · January 11, 2011, 4:07pm

Re: Defacing Mecca

Med911 is probably the only sane one in this argument. The Saudi's defacing of Mecca is the perfect example of gluttony. Not only are those hotels gaudy and an eyesore, they take away focus from the kaaba and the main reason why people come to Mecca in the first place, the pilgrimage. You know what the real shirk is? Showing off and that is exactly what the Saudis are doing here with these hotels.

Saudi's might control Mecca and Medina, but those two cities belong to all Muslims, always have and always will, and as a result it would be respectful of the Saudis to consider the feelings of all Muslims around the world, but of course that would be expecting too much of the people who consider themselves god's gift to mankind.

I don't even understand how any Pakistani can consider supporting Saudi Arabia as they and their ideologies are one of the primary reasons why Pakistan is currently in the state it is.

system · January 12, 2011, 2:38am

Re: Defacing Mecca

If you get lost in the glitz and glam of Mecca in front of the Kaabah, your iman is pathetically weak. There is no fixing that even if all the glitz and glam is gone.

Raindance · January 12, 2011, 3:07am

Re: Defacing Mecca

[quote=“Med911, post:96, topic:234832”]

Listen BUDDY. Get this through your thick head. We the PAKISTANIS dont want YOUR twisted and extremist idieology infecting our society. Listen genius. Your the one committing SHIRK by claiming to know what Allah wants. You DONT know. What you think you know, is your twisted interpretation and nothing more. So keep your shirk to yourself.

This is all about YOU. It has nothing to do with Allah SWT. You have your interpretation, and its a very narrow minded one. How disgusting that you would stoop to claiming YOUR twisted views are endorsed by Allah SWT!
We peace loving Pakistanis have ours, and this has been our tradition for centuries.

You can be as condescending and arrogant as you want, BUT YOU, yeas YOU, dont own God or Islam. So if you dont like it, you can go live in Saudia Arabia.

The reason the Arabs arent sleeping on the streets is because they have OIL! Its has nothing to do with their version of Islam! Why dont you go visit the countries that DONT have oil and see how they are living!

The only one being a Jahil here is you, with you pathetic over enthusiastic endorsement of Saudis and their ilk.
Meanwhile, I will gladly live on the streets. Better living on the streets, then espousing an extremist and jahil Islam that YOU believe in.

Your custodians are IDIOTS. The Saudis are some of the biggest scum on this planet, but you wouldnt know that ofcourse.
Have a nice day, hope I got through that thick skull of yours.

Now run off. Go worship your Saudi masters./QUOTE

------------------------------cvabn------------------------------

Untill now I did not come across a scum bag Pakistani ^ with twisted religion you claim to follow and that for “Centuries in Pakistan”

Russia Got more Oil than KSA
Nigeria got more Oil than Russia & KSA Yet she is in shambles !

One word to you ! GOOD LUCK , :k:

Med911 · January 12, 2011, 4:12am

Re: Defacing Mecca

Archangel:

Understanding the faith is very difficult, one obviously realizes that when reading what is stated on this website, considering people have great difficulty in accepting basic principles such as territorial integrity. At the end of the day the subject matter boils down to this:

Saudi money

Mecca is part of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

They can do whatever they wish.

Is it a waste of money considering other pressing need? Sure. But does it affect the sanctity of the Kaabah and religious piety? Pfft no. It is part of the city and not part of the Holy site. But then again you are hell bent on a vendetta against anything the faith and those who hold religious sentiments. That is pretty evident. So finding something to ridicule in a religious society is par for the course.

As for accepting divine will. It is what Muslims are taught. Allah is the great creator. He knows all and sees all to paraphrase the bible. So yes I do consider it his divine will. I also consider it his divine will when something bad or good happens to me as a person regardless of what I do or do not do.

The essence of faith is accepting that Allah or God decides. Christians get that. Jews get that. Sadly ABCDs don't. Shame really that you can be born into a faith but know so very little about it.

You seem to believe I have a vendetta simply because I disagree with you. I have no vendetta against religion or religous people. I do however have a vendetta against hypocrites, liars and buffoons who make a joke of Islam. Seeing as how your none of these, you have nothing to fear.
That being said, I couldnt disagree with you more. If all things were the will of God, we would not have been ordered to fight Jihad. We would have been told to accept all things as they are the will of god, which ofcourse is not the case. You know as well as I do that injustice is often committed and it is incumbent on a Muslim to speak.

The essence of religion is accepting Gods will, not Saudia Arabia's will. You seem to have turned the Saudis into demigods. You cant even bring yourself to criticize, as they rightly deserve, simply because they have beards... Shame really, that despite being born a person with a free and independent mind, with a fully functioning conscience, you choose to be so close minded.

Med911 · January 12, 2011, 4:17am

Re: Defacing Mecca

...

Med911 · January 12, 2011, 4:20am

Re: Defacing Mecca

[quote=“Raindance, post:4, topic:234905”]

[quote=“Med911, post:96, topic:234832”]

Listen BUDDY. Get this through your thick head. We the PAKISTANIS dont want YOUR twisted and extremist idieology infecting our society. Listen genius. Your the one committing SHIRK by claiming to know what Allah wants. You DONT know. What you think you know, is your twisted interpretation and nothing more. So keep your shirk to yourself.

This is all about YOU. It has nothing to do with Allah SWT. You have your interpretation, and its a very narrow minded one. How disgusting that you would stoop to claiming YOUR twisted views are endorsed by Allah SWT!
We peace loving Pakistanis have ours, and this has been our tradition for centuries.

You can be as condescending and arrogant as you want, BUT YOU, yeas YOU, dont own God or Islam. So if you dont like it, you can go live in Saudia Arabia.

The reason the Arabs arent sleeping on the streets is because they have OIL! Its has nothing to do with their version of Islam! Why dont you go visit the countries that DONT have oil and see how they are living!

The only one being a Jahil here is you, with you pathetic over enthusiastic endorsement of Saudis and their ilk.
Meanwhile, I will gladly live on the streets. Better living on the streets, then espousing an extremist and jahil Islam that YOU believe in.

Your custodians are IDIOTS. The Saudis are some of the biggest scum on this planet, but you wouldnt know that ofcourse.
Have a nice day, hope I got through that thick skull of yours.

Now run off. Go worship your Saudi masters.
[/QUOTE

------------------------------cvabn------------------------------

Untill now I did not come across a scum bag Pakistani ^ with twisted religion you claim to follow and that for “Centuries in Pakistan”

Russia Got more Oil than KSA
Nigeria got more Oil than Russia & KSA Yet she is in shambles !

One word to you ! GOOD LUCK , :k:[/QUOTE]

Pathetic.

Go back to worshiping your Arab masters. Stop wasting my time.

Raindance · January 12, 2011, 4:27am

Re: Defacing Mecca

Jerk!

Med911 · January 12, 2011, 4:28am

Re: Defacing Mecca

In Islam, we go out of our way to avoid temptations to our Iman. Men and women pray seperately, women must wear burqa or hijabs, we ban alcohol from being sold because we believe it will challenge our Imaan , and the list goes on.
Yet Glitz and glamor in mecca is something we should accept!?!?! Doesn't seem to jive with the Islam as most of us know it.

Islam generally bans, or at the very least, warns us to avoid that which is a danger to our Iman, and that includes immodest extravagances like this one in Mecca.

By the way Mr Islamic expert, you do know that modesty is a virtue in Islam dont you? What is modest about this project?

Med911 · January 12, 2011, 4:29am

Re: Defacing Mecca

Clever.. :)
Im sorry. :*(
Dont be upset, its not personal. Although you did call me thick headed.

kakaballi · January 12, 2011, 4:40pm

Re: Defacing Mecca

Not correct. Check your facts before posting.

I cannot dictate what Saudis do with their money. I have a right of opinion though and my opinion is that I would not feel great during tawwaf with massive hotels and skyscrapers towering over the great mosque. It just doesn’t feel nice.