The Kaabah is sacred. Not the entire city of Mecca.
Your talking about a people who are obsessed with the sanctity of beards, simply because the prophet of Islam wore won. Are so obsessed with other aspects of his character, that they will rearrange their entire lives to better reflect the prophets like in 7th century Arabia. They are even willing to go to the extent of murder in his defense. Yet your going to tell me that the place he lived, breathed, and walked should somehow be less worthy?
Do you actually believe that or are you simply supporting the Saudis?
That's a informative thread for me. Thanks for the info.
I can't add much myself, except that shame at Saudi Najadis, Hejaz-occupiers.
As far as I understand, the defacing of Makkah has more to do with ibnul Wahhab's teachings than revenue generation. Saudis have always looked for excuses to erase every building related to Islam's history.
What they are doing is not just the loss of Islam but the loss of an extremely important epoch of human history.
Well not that history is not important from heritage and teachings point of view, but the real dangers of such 'Love' can bring people to 'Shirk' which is to be avoided at any cost !
Secondly the hatred for Saudis is unjustifiable at any cost including religion. They are corrupt and have poor morality, disgustingly naive towards the "Real" value of Islam, but before stamping on this 'Verdict' one must look at their own current values at home (Pakistan) and to me it does not paint a very rosy picture at all.
One must not forget that such 'attachments to sacred landmarks with the exemptions of what Allah swt has marked by his(swt) own words have no real values to mankind righteousness
or to prove strength to a muslim. The cutting down of tree at the pact signing site of 'Bait-e-Rizwan' by the Prophet Mohammad PBUH is just another example of many such guidance to the
true focus of faith.
One can argue that all is not rotten at home, and I would agree adding that all societies have good and bad mix hence gauging Islamic values with ones behavior should be avoided and shun away.
Your talking about a people who are obsessed with the sanctity of beards, simply because the prophet of Islam wore won. Are so obsessed with other aspects of his character, that they will rearrange their entire lives to better reflect the prophets like in 7th century Arabia. They are even willing to go to the extent of murder in his defense. Yet your going to tell me that the place he lived, breathed, and walked should somehow be less worthy?
Do you actually believe that or are you simply supporting the Saudis?
Balance in life is key. If the issue is of land and sacred holy sites, nothing should have been changed in Mecca ever. Because every single rock, stone piece of dust could be considered holy or special. That is frankly insane. Our faith denotes the Kaabah as a our most sacred site. That is all that matters and even then the Kaabah has gone through many renovations.
Balance in life is key. If the issue is of land and sacred holy sites, nothing should have been changed in Mecca ever. Because every single rock, stone piece of dust could be considered holy or special. That is frankly insane. Our faith denotes the Kaabah as a our most sacred site. That is all that matters and even then the Kaabah has gone through many renovations.
Well is it to much to ask for any development that does go on, be done in a more respectable manner? I mean did the Saudis ever ask anyone elses oppinion when they built this gaudy monstrosity (and that is what it is)? Obviously there must be some development, but that being said, development should proceed keeping in mind the sensitivity of the sight. Something the Saudis dont do when they bull doze through whatever they think is in their way.
Do you really want them to turn Mecca into the Las Vegas strip like their doing in Dubai?
Well is it to much to ask for any development that does go on, be done in a more respectable manner? I mean did the Saudis ever ask anyone elses oppinion when they built this gaudy monstrosity (and that is what it is)? Obviously there must be some development, but that being said, development should proceed keeping in mind the sensitivity of the sight. Something the Saudis dont do when they bull doze through whatever they think is in their way.
Do you really want them to turn Mecca into the Las Vegas strip like their doing in Dubai?
They can build whatever they want, its their money. Rest assured that there are no casinos or strip clubs in Makkah, so your Vegas strip fears are unfounded.
They can build whatever they want, its their money. Rest assured that there are no casinos or strip clubs in Makkah, so your Vegas strip fears are unfounded.
They can build whatever they want in Riyadh, not Makkah. Makkah doesnt belong to them exclusively.
You seem to miss the point.
Im not talking about strip joints. Im talking about glitz. About being to ostentatious and gaudy. Both of which Islam frowns upon. We may not comply with this tenet anywhere else, but at least we should try to keep makkah as humble and modest as possible. Why do we need another Burj Dubai over looking the Kabbah? It ridiculous.
You look like one of those nutters who delude themselves into think they actually know what their talking about??!?
Well is it to much to ask for any development that does go on, be done in a more respectable manner? I mean did the Saudis ever ask anyone elses oppinion when they built this gaudy monstrosity (and that is what it is)? Obviously there must be some development, but that being said, development should proceed keeping in mind the sensitivity of the sight. Something the Saudis dont do when they bull doze through whatever they think is in their way.
Do you really want them to turn Mecca into the Las Vegas strip like their doing in Dubai?
Wow. Talk about selective interpretation. Rizla is right. Mecca is physically within the Boundaries of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud is known as the caretakers of the two holy sites of Islam. They have been doing so for the past 80 years (the time period the House of Saud has been in power). They can pretty much do what they wish. While the Kaabah belongs to all Muslims, Mecca does not. It is a Saudi city.
The decisions is theirs to make. Feel free to disagree with it, but realize the futility in arguing about something that shall never affect you.
Wow. Talk about selective interpretation. Rizla is right. Mecca is physically within the Boundaries of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud is known as the caretakers of the two holy sites of Islam. They have been doing so for the past 80 years (the time period the House of Saud has been in power). They can pretty much do what they wish. While the Kaabah belongs to all Muslims, Mecca does not. It is a Saudi city.
The decisions is theirs to make. Feel free to disagree with it, but realize the futility in arguing about something that shall never affect you.
Right, because that is exactly what god intended. God from the very beginning, had intended for Mecca to be the sole property of the SAUDIS!
Forgive me, but I fail to understand why just because Mecca is within the so called physical boundaries of the Saudis, gives them a right to do whatever they like to it?
You honestly making the argument that no one else in a world of nearly 2 BILLION has any right to criticize what the Saudis, whose extremist ideology is anathema to most other reasonable Muslims, do in the most holy city in all of Islam?!?!?!
All im asking for is a little more sensitivity to its status. Islam isnt limited to the Saudi state. Its not selective anything, Its a statment of fact.
I understand you like the Saudis because they have beards and wear chadars over themselves and turbans, but we dont have to always defend them.
Right, because that is exactly what god intended. God from the very beginning, had intended for Mecca to be the sole property of the SAUDIS!
Forgive me, but I fail to understand why just because Mecca is within the so called physical boundaries of the Saudis, gives them a right to do whatever they like to it?
You honestly making the argument that no one else in a world of nearly 2 BILLION has any right to criticize what the Saudis, whose extremist ideology is anathema to most other reasonable Muslims, do in the most holy city in all of Islam?!?!?!
All im asking for is a little more sensitivity to its status. Islam isnt limited to the Saudi state. Its not selective anything, Its a statment of fact.
I understand you like the Saudis because they have beards and wear chadars over themselves and turbans, but we dont have to always defend them.
Calm down sir ! You are in the vicinity of 'Kaba Site' on this thread !
If not Saudis, then do you expect Pakistanis to take care of Mecca & Medina holy sites ???????
Not a very pretty picture comes to my mind !
Atleast thank Saudis who have kept you away from all kind 'Shirks' and your cultural rituals at home seen at 'Data Derbaar' and other Dirghas.
Please try to understand, sooner the better !
Ok. Obviously you dont get the point.
We all expect who ever does "take care" of the sight to recognize that the site isnt their own back yard where they can do whatever they like, and show a little sensitivity in what they build and how they build.
Is that asking to much? For you it may be, but not everyone agrees with you. Please understand, the sooner the better.
Ok. Obviously you dont get the point.
We all expect who ever does "take care" of the sight to recognize that the site isnt their own back yard where they can do whatever they like, and show a little sensitivity in what they build and how they build.
Is that asking to much? For you it may be, but not everyone agrees with you. Please understand, the sooner the better.
This is my exact point that you have mentioned here! Sanctuary of Mecca CITY is observed by 'Not permitting entry to non-Muslims'
Where as the 'Kaba' is within the 'Masjid ul Haram' MOSQUE with obvious restrictions for Muslims for do's & don'ts.
Rest of the city is bull-dozed including 'Janat'ul'baqi' by which you don't recognize any old grave markings. NOW just imagine if TODAY those markings were still visible, would it not invite shirk in some form for the pilgrims ???
Have you never heard some one saying in Pakistan "Eat or Rub this KHAAK-E-SHIFA and you would get better ????? This is "shirk" . As we all know that only Hajr-e-aswad (Stone) & Zum-zum water has that privilege bestowed by
Prophet Mohammad pbuh himself.
Today the house of Prophet Mohammad & the surrounding don't exist no more, and for a reason too. Think about it otherwise !
Pakistani Pilgrims in Medina were notoriously famous for inserting 'Taweez' 'Perchee' and all kind of practices which are consider as disrespectful "when you visit someone's house' specially of Prophet Mohammad pbuh.
They would also face hujra's Mohammad pbuh and make dua "asking" for all kind of things ! Which is again considered as "Shirk" where as the original and still existing wall of the mosque is as such at the time of
Salat many hundred of namazis end up 'turning their backs' to the Prophet Mohammad's grave pbuh and his hujra thus facing qibla for prayers, which is acceptable !
From the grounds of Badre to Uhad & Hijaz to Arafat even though it is the very grounds that Prophet Mohammad pbuh walked are still open to ordinary people but with less thoughts of intensity in sacredness to non alive matters.
Remember ! Shirk is the most disliked element of Allah's swt proclamation of ONENESS & There is NON OTHER like him & NON OTHER PROVIDER of your needs ,,,,
Hence, the sancturay of Deen is in the minds and souls of all Muslims. Atleast it should be
It is not related to any earthly site and non descriptive 'land mark' not endorsed by Almighty Allah or his Prophet/s pbut.
I believe this matter is not so difficult to understand. Unless you follow 'Pakistani Islam' (YES! It does exist,,,)
May Allah have mercy on all of us and bless us in all aspects!
I seek Allah's forgiveness if I have made any errors in my opinions or understandings ! Ameen
And how do you know what Allah intended eh? What you are on is a biased witch hunt to poke holes into everything that concerns crazy fundos. No real objectivity in any of your posts and you randomly make up comments that have no relation to the thread.
The subject is building a huge clock tower in Mecca. Not in the Kaabah. And Mecca as a city which is part of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia falls within their domain. Your statements are akin to the retarded comment that the Pope should consult all roman Catholics if he wants to make changes to the Vatican
I should think its common sense mr Archangel. Or do you honestly think that Mecca was meant to be controled by the Saudis? I mean, using your mind and common sense is not a sin you know.
The reason things sound random to you is because you choose not to think, but respond. If you actually took a second to consider the point, it may not sound so random to you…
My point is quite simple, and I will make it simple for your sake. This huge development is gaudy and ugly. It really defaces the entire area. The Saudis should be a little more considerate of what they build since the site is of such immense importance to so many people.
The problem is that the Saudis, whos intentions are motivated entirely by their own extremist brand of Islam, have very little consideration for others, for history, for culture etc. They build thing with no consideration for the significance of the sight.
You in your gushing love affair with the Saudis may not realize this, but its a valid point. If you can show me that this sight has no significance to other Muslims, then I will agree with you.
We arent asking them to quit all development there, that would obviously be irrational. All we want is some degree of sensitivity. Not to be so callous in what is built. Now you can go fall at the feet of the Saudis if you like, but I wont.
And what dumb thing to say. The Pope is the spiritual leader of all Catholics and is considered Gods spokesperson on Earth.
The SAUDIS are not consdered Islams spiritual leaders, and they certainly arent God SPOKESPERSONS! You not only need to work on your basic logic skills, but I would also suggest an undergrad Comparative religion course.
This is my exact point that you have mentioned here! Sanctuary of Mecca CITY is observed by 'Not permitting entry to non-Muslims'
Where as the 'Kaba' is within the 'Masjid ul Haram' MOSQUE with obvious restrictions for Muslims for do's & don'ts.
Rest of the city is bull-dozed including 'Janat'ul'baqi' by which you don't recognize any old grave markings. NOW just imagine if TODAY those markings were still visible, would it not invite shirk in some form for the pilgrims ???
Have you never heard some one saying in Pakistan "Eat or Rub this KHAAK-E-SHIFA and you would get better ????? This is "shirk" . As we all know that only Hajr-e-aswad (Stone) & Zum-zum water has that privilege bestowed by
Prophet Mohammad pbuh himself.
Today the house of Prophet Mohammad & the surrounding don't exist no more, and for a reason too. Think about it otherwise !
Pakistani Pilgrims in Medina were notoriously famous for inserting 'Taweez' 'Perchee' and all kind of practices which are consider as disrespectful "when you visit someone's house' specially of Prophet Mohammad pbuh.
They would also face hujra's Mohammad pbuh and make dua "asking" for all kind of things ! Which is again considered as "Shirk" where as the original and still existing wall of the mosque is as such at the time of
Salat many hundred of namazis end up 'turning their backs' to the Prophet Mohammad's grave pbuh and his hujra thus facing qibla for prayers, which is acceptable !
From the grounds of Badre to Uhad & Hijaz to Arafat even though it is the very grounds that Prophet Mohammad pbuh walked are still open to ordinary people but with less thoughts of intensity in sacredness to non alive matters.
Remember ! Shirk is the most disliked element of Allah's swt proclamation of ONENESS & There is NON OTHER like him & NON OTHER PROVIDER of your needs ,,,,
Hence, the sancturay of Deen is in the minds and souls of all Muslims. Atleast it should be
It is not related to any earthly site and non descriptive 'land mark' not endorsed by Almighty Allah or his Prophet/s pbut.
I believe this matter is not so difficult to understand. Unless you follow 'Pakistani Islam' (YES! It does exist,,,)
This may be Shirk to you but its how Muslims follow their religion. Your views which are obviously not shared by the majority, only support one interpretation, and thats a problem.
People have their own way of connecting to God, and if this makes them feel as if they are connecting with God, then more power to them.
Who are you to say their interpretation is wrong and yours is right?
Either way, we should respect ALL relgious views. One way of doing that would be to leave places like Mecca alone. I think most reasonable people, would agree that things like this are not necessary in a place as holy as mecca. At the very least, developments in mecca should be approached with more sensativity.
My point is quite simple, and I will make it simple for your sake. This huge development is gaudy and ugly. It really defaces the entire area. The Saudis should be a little more considerate of what they build since the site is of such immense importance to so many people. The problem is that the Saudis, whos intentions are motivated entirely by their own extremist brand of Islam, have very little consideration for others, for history, for culture etc. They build thing with no consideration for the significance of the sight. You in your gushing love affair with the Saudis may not realize this, but its a valid point. If you can show me that this sight has no significance to other Muslims, then I will agree with you.
You might think the development is gaudy and ugly but that is strictly your opinion. I don't see anyone protesting this development or getting their knickers in a twist because the Saudis built another skyscraper to add to the ones already there. For most Muslims the significance of Makkah lies in visiting the Kaaba and performing Umrah/Hajj, not in the sights and sounds of the region. When you're actually there, it doesn't matter one bit what's outside the mosque, just what you do there.
This is my exact point that you have mentioned here! Sanctuary of Mecca CITY is observed by 'Not permitting entry to non-Muslims' Where as the 'Kaba' is within the 'Masjid ul Haram' MOSQUE with obvious restrictions for Muslims for do's & don'ts. Rest of the city is bull-dozed including 'Janat'ul'baqi' by which you don't recognize any old grave markings. NOW just imagine if TODAY those markings were still visible, would it not invite shirk in some form for the pilgrims ??? Have you never heard some one saying in Pakistan "Eat or Rub this KHAAK-E-SHIFA and you would get better ????? This is "shirk" . As we all know that only Hajr-e-aswad (Stone) & Zum-zum water has that privilege bestowed by Prophet Mohammad pbuh himself. Today the house of Prophet Mohammad & the surrounding don't exist no more, and for a reason too. Think about it otherwise ! Pakistani Pilgrims in Medina were notoriously famous for inserting 'Taweez' 'Perchee' and all kind of practices which are consider as disrespectful "when you visit someone's house' specially of Prophet Mohammad pbuh. They would also face hujra's Mohammad pbuh and make dua "asking" for all kind of things ! Which is again considered as "Shirk" where as the original and still existing wall of the mosque is as such at the time of Salat many hundred of namazis end up 'turning their backs' to the Prophet Mohammad's grave pbuh and his hujra thus facing qibla for prayers, which is acceptable ! From the grounds of Badre to Uhad & Hijaz to Arafat even though it is the very grounds that Prophet Mohammad pbuh walked are still open to ordinary people but with less thoughts of intensity in sacredness to non alive matters. Remember ! Shirk is the most disliked element of Allah's swt proclamation of ONENESS & There is NON OTHER like him & NON OTHER PROVIDER of your needs ,,,, Hence, the sancturay of Deen is in the minds and souls of all Muslims. Atleast it should be It is not related to any earthly site and non descriptive 'land mark' not endorsed by Almighty Allah or his Prophet/s pbut. I believe this matter is not so difficult to understand. Unless you follow 'Pakistani Islam' (YES! It does exist,,,)
I agree with your views mate. Religion in Pakistan has been distorted way too much. The Quran and Hadith do not advocate our shirk practices, be it durgas or data darbars. The Saudis have done well to ensure the two most holy Muslim sites remain free of such innovations.
The reason no one is holding mass protests is because most people are drones. They are incapable of criticizing other so called Muslims. Its the same reason the Saudis can get away with all kinds of nonsense like this BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue
in the name of Islam, and people like you just support them blindly.
And yes, this development is to big, and to ugly, and many people agree with me. But the problem isnt this development, its essentially the fact that the Saudis dont give a damn what anyone else thinks. They have literally taken over the sight, and the reason is because people like you, who apparently cant understnd that this sight is actually important to ALL Muslims, let them get away with this garbage simply because they have beards and claim to be divinely inspired. Most Muslims never protest anything, unless its something they think has been committed by Non Muslims.
Honestly man, are you really arguing in favor of this sight because you feel its ok, or are you arguing in favor because you love the Saudis to much to ever criticize them? Its really sickening how you grovel at their feet.
And the form of practice that Islam takes in Pakistan has been here for HUNDREDS of years. It has been the prominent and popular form of worship well before the establishment of Pakistan. If anything has been distorted, its this peaceful form of Islam that has been disfigured by the extremist ideology espoused by “nutters” like you.
Stand Corrected !