[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Hope that helps you understand why I act the way I do.
**
[/quote]
Yes, now I do.
Thanks and please keep up the good work both of you bros, Ibrahim and Hasnain!
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Ibrahim says: HELLO Nescio and PyariCgudia, DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW THAT BOTH OF YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING SILLY STATEMENTS, based on error.
This thread was not about the presence of unauthentic hadiths that Muslims reject, but about the claim that that the hadiths ( meaning all hadiths) should be doubted/rejected and sunnah should be accepted because they can be found in the Qur’an
**
[/quote]
My claims of you misquoting others is based on this:
Ibrahim, you wrote: doubted/rejected. This is wrong, because by doing this you imply that I doubt hadith and then reject them! If you wanted to put it correct you should have only said: doubted or you should have said doubted/rejected/accepted.
for further comments on doubting and rejecting you can read my previous post
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 09, 2002).]
let me tell you again what I already have told:
Sunnah is what the Prophet used to do and what he said. (=his teachings)
Now it’s up to us to find out what these Sunnah were.
There are two ways: either you read the Hadith, because they report of these Sunnah. But as I said one can have doubts on the validity of certan Hadith.
The second way to find out what the Sunnah were is the following:
As I already mentioned the essence of the Sunnah and the essence of the Quran is the same! Thus, in order to find the essence of Sunnah one can read the Quran!
now, you have to choose which of these two methods to use: since we know that the Quran isn’t flawed, whereas the Hadith can be flawed, isn’t logical to think that you should follow the Quran. And if a Hadith also tells the same, you can think of it as good history-writing!
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
My claims of you misquoting others is based on this:
Ibrahim, you wrote: doubted/rejected. This is wrong, because by doing this you imply that I doubt hadith and then reject them! If you wanted to put it correct you should have only said: doubted or you should have said doubted/rejected/accepted.for further comments on doubting and rejecting you can read my previous post
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : salaams to all
NeScio Thank you, Now you were not very accurate either were you? I posted both doubted/rejected . meaning it can be doubted as well as rejected because of the doubting ( which the wise may come to understand) but you have failed to understand.
but YOU said I had claimed rejected only , now we can play this game forever but the TRUTH remains you have now tried to put words into my mouth and deceive others too.
[quote]
NeScio wrote: And I said: that I doubt the Hadith, I nowhere said that I reject all Hadith.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: how would I be wrong when you do admit that eventually the result of doubting can lead to
[quote]
NeScio wrote or you should have said doubted/rejected/accepted.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: BTW my questions to you on this topic, don’t seem to get any replies. Are you honest with yourself or you intend to keep on deceiving yourself?
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** each time you conduct yourself with honesty you’ll be driven to greater success. **
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** The second way to find out what the Sunnah were is the following:
As I already mentioned the essence of the Sunnah and the essence of the Quran is the same! Thus, in order to find the essence of Sunnah one can read the Quran!
**
[/quote]
Yes you have said this time and time again, but what I would like to know is where you got your information from in order to form this fatwa? Did any of the scholars think this way? Did any of the earlier muslims think this way? Does the Qur'an instruct us to think this way? I have not come across such a way of thinking before, and so therefore if you are right, then all the people that have preceeded you, up to and including our Nabi (saw) were nauozobillah wrong.
You also say time and time again that Hadeeths are doubtful - you make a wide generallisation that covers hadeeth sahih & daeef, (week and strong) without stating the basis upon which hadeeth can be catergorised and reliable. In this you are making a big slander. If someone doubts that you are the son/daughter of your father does that mean that you are truly illigitemate or do your fight for your rights and defend yourself? Why can't you do the same and defend the authentic sunnah of your Nabi? It is your duty to search out truth from falsehood, and just because of some lies and insinuations, does that mean that it is all a lie? I gave you the example of the Qur'an - if you are willing to accept it as the book of Allah, based on Hadeeth, then why can you not do the same for the Sunnah?
PA is better than you on this in that he/she is open about it and has denied the status of the sunnah alltogether. You on the other hand are vaugue and dodge the fact that you hold the same beliefs.
Alot of people have said alot of things out of ignorance, such as Filhall saying that the Sahih of Imam Bukhari contradicts the Qur'an. I challenge him/her to proove it right here right now.
People have also said that Sahih Bukhari is just a reference collection. This is ignorance yet again. It is a book of jurisprudence, fatawas, given by the Imam. Why?, just open book 1, ch1, hadeeth 1, and you will find a statement from the Imam backed by a Qur'anic ayah, follwed by some ahadeeth. If it is a collection of hadeeth, why then the Qur'anic ayah, and why is each Chapter heading written by the Imam (e.g. "permissibility of...")?
So I challenge you to post right here with references the contradictions you claim that Bukhari has collated.........contradictions against the Qur'an, not Hadeeths that contradict your personal opinions and what you yourself hold dear. If a hadeeth does not complay with your western hayat or with Uncle Sam, that does not mean it is doubtful.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 09, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: . Jazak'Allahu Khaiy'run brother Alpha1.
Dear all, salaam,
Interesting answers by Ibrahim,
Filhaal quote:
Hadith is a collection of stories collected after a period of 150-200 years after the Prophet Mohammad
(saw) had left this world.
Ibrahim says : that is YOUR misconception , hadith exist from the day men was born. Meaning what took place is
reported form one person to another. Just like people reading this post or any matter may report it to another.
So the moment you say hadiths only came into existence when it was colleted and compiled after 15O-200 years
after the prophet, you are talking without knowledge.
Filhaal:
That is what I am also saying, hadith (story) exist from the beginning of time, so there is not anything special about them!!
furhtermore i did not say that they came into EXISTENCE after 150-200 years, but i said that they were COMPILED, COLLECTED into book form after this period!! So hadith (or stories about the Prophet were prevalent in the first 150 years after the Prophet (saw) had left this world) but Bukhari and co. did an enormous job in COLLECTING and COMPILING into a book form (from 6-700.000 hadith they found 5-6000 hadith that THEY THOUGHT were authentic!!STill there are hadith which contradict other hadith or contradict the Quran!!
Ibrahim says Apparently you do not understand hadiths are tracked backwards to the person who said them, so your
theory of it being history writing is flawed.
Filhaal:
I fully understand that hadith have a track of narrators!! But that is the whole point were the problem arises. People started attributing things to the Prophet and the shahaba which they did not do or said!! By the time these stories reached Bukhari they were distorted!!
i have a question for you:
do you reject the Bible and Torah, even if there are people claiming that they have the authentic hadith (stories, gospels) about say Prophet Isa (saw)?? of course some might be true and authentic BUT many more stories about Prophet ISa (saw) are made up by others!! And in my opinion the same holds for the hadith of the muslims some might be true but many more are made up!! even if there is a long list of trustworthy people mentioned, it just means these sayings are attributed to them AND DOES NOT mean they actually have said or done these things!!
Dear all, again, salaam
one more thing i find very irritating is that whenever someone doubts the hadith, the opposing party starts calling you a westerner (reference to Alpha1)!! sorry sire, although i live in the west, i am very much attached to my culture, language, history and above all RELIGION!! I am certainly not saying that i want to replace the hadith with western values (because i do not know which is better), i want to see the true picture of Islam, which in my opinion is distorted by the hadith!! The true picture of Islam is only given by the QUran!!!!!
Alpha1 is asking examples, well i already said in my previous post on stoning to death (this is a simple example)!! there is nothing in the Quran about stoning, the Quran talks about 100 stripes for adultery!!
Well there are hadith on this topic ( be it authentic or unauthentic)!!
So, if stoning was truly the punishment why didnot God send one more ayat through the Wahi to his Prophet (saw.). Did God forget this, or was God to shy to talk on this matter!! NOOOO, GOD says in the QURAN that this BOOK is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED and PERFECT. God has already given the punishment in the Quran which was 100 stripes for adultery!!
So according to the Quran ( the most fundamental CRITERION) all hadith on stoning are UNAUTHENTIC irrespective what bukhari and co. may claim!!
[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
You wrote the following right?
1) Unauthentic hadiths have to be doubted and rejected in Islam
2) Authentic Hadiths have to be verified for its accuracy
3) Any scriptural quotes must have references for re-verifications
4) Muslims should verify all information before accepting them
*This is what me and NESCIO HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! *
[/quote]
No, no i'm afraid you haven't been saying any of this at all.
And i'll insha'Allaah tell you why ...
You have been claiming that where the Sunnah is to be followed, the hadeeth are not. By suggesting this, you have automatically nullified and rejected all hadeeth, whether authentic or fabricated. You did not make a difference between the different types of ahadeeth (i.e. fabricated, weak, authentic etc), which is precisely why i asked you the question in the first place to initiate this thread:
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
It's actually the first time i've heard this, especially as the sunnan themselves are found and exctracted from ahadeeth.
I was just curious as to how you
differentiate the two?
[/quote]
... which you have failed to answer up until now.
Now if you cannot admit to your mistake, instead of being adamant to push the discussion askew from the initial issue, then indeed you are in a sad state.
Had you differentiated between authentic and inauthentic ahadeeth in your original quote, then what reason would i have had to probe you? But because you threw all the ahadeeth into the same pot, by not differentiating between the categories, you in actual fact rejected them all.
Do you think we (myself, brothers Ibrahim, Alpha1, Mahiwal etc) are enjoying debating with you and your supporters? I for one (and i'm sure the brothers too - wallaahu aalam) hate debating, but at the same time Allaah - subhaana wata'aala - has commanded us to enjoin in the good and forbid the evil, which is the ONLY reason we're still on this thread.
I did not expect this thread to be turned into a novel of a dialogue. I asked a straight forward and simple question, resulting from an earlier quote of yours. All you had to do is explain to me the difference between hadeeth and Sunnah (not between authentic and inauthentic ahadeeth, because your judgement was clearly not based on this). Nothing more, nothing less.
Dear sister, we all make mistakes, but the best of us are those who learn to swallow our pride, accept our mistake, and sincerely ask Allaah - subhaana wa ta'aala - to rectify our shortcomings, and guide us ... always.
Wallaahu musta'aan.
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
That is what I am also saying, hadith (story) exist from the beginning of time, so there is not anything special about them!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear filhaal, Obviously you are again talking without knowledge, hadiths are not stories but reports of actual conversations/interactions between the Prophet (pbuh) and his followers.
Now the word "stories" can mean:-
story
1 archaic : HISTORY 1, 3
2 a : an account of incidents or events
b : a statement regarding the facts pertinent to a situation in question
c : ANECDOTE; esp : an amusing one
3 a : a fictional narrative shorter than a novel; specif : SHORT STORY
b : the intrigue or plot of a narrative or dramatic work
4 : a widely circulated rumor
5 : LIE, FALSEHOOD
6 : LEGEND, ROMANCE
7 : a news article or broadcast
8 : MATTER, SITUATION
©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.
What are hadiths?
** Hadiths are sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) NOT STORIES **
The obvious difference being , these matters are considered instructions and guidelines from the Prophet (pbuh) for Muslims, meaning they are auxiliary details that form part of revelation. Without them one may find themselves conjecturing, only with them , one can be rightly guided.
26:196 Without doubt it is (announced) ** in the mystic Books** of former peoples.
Ibrahim says: even the former people had mystic books (hadiths) where they were informed of the Qur’an and the final prophet (pbuh) that is why people eventually excepted Islam with ease.
[quote]
furhtermore i did not say that they came into EXISTENCE after 150-200 years, but i said that they were COMPILED, COLLECTED into book form after this period!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: here is where I am saying you are misinformed and you don’t seem to understand what I have written. .
Meaning
1) hadiths were transmitted from person to person even before they were collected . This transmission took place from the day the Prophet (pbuh) reported his FIRST communications with the Angel to his wife.
2) It is by means of hadiths Islam spread like wild fire in Arabia, meaning people transmitted what the Prophet (pbuh) had witnessed and argued about it or accepted it based on those interactions.
3) Hadiths were also compiled by the companions as their personal references even before Imam Bukhari codified it into book form
[quote]
So hadith (or stories about the Prophet were prevalent in the first 150 years after the Prophet (saw) had left this world)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: wrong not stories! but sayings of the prophet (pbuh) , which is the only means by which followers are rightly guided when the scripture is still in the process of being revealed or is available in book form.
[quote]
but Bukhari and co. did an enormous job in COLLECTING and COMPILING into a book form (from 6-700.000 hadith they found 5-6000 hadith that THEY THOUGHT were authentic!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello kindly tell me where you get the figures from or is it your policy to invent your own figures?
Second btw: who are they?
Third Imam Bukhari did not “think” but follow an existing principal amongst the companions as to how to determine the authenticity of a saying. This was a science that was developed by the companions and hadiths compilers before Imam Bukhari to ensure that only reliable transmissions are accepted by Muslims and not be deceived by false transmitters.
[quote]
STill there are hadith which contradict other hadith or contradict the Quran!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: which Authentic hadith contradicts Qur’an? I recall I asked you the question earlier , I guess I need to ask again!
Maybe your problem is :-
9: 125 But those ** in whose hearts is a disease it will add doubt to their doubt ** and they will die in a state of unbelief.
[quote]
I fully understand that hadith have a track of narrators!! But that is the whole point were the problem arises. People started attributing things to the Prophet and the shahaba which they did not do or said!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Amazing ! little wonder you have ended up deluding yourself. You see the narrations that are considered “sahih” ( authentic) are ONLY the narrations that are coming from pious companions and Mothers of Believers and not from any tom dick and harry who lived in Arabia .
In fact even the transmitters double checked the narrations by visiting the Prophet (pbuh) or the companion of the Prophet (pbuh) to enquire about its authenticity when they felt , it was unclear or doubtful ( which is also recorded in the hadiths) .
[quote]
By the time these stories reached Bukhari they were distorted!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: that is your conjecture based on folly.
Now be a man and prove this , since you are bold to make such claims.
24: 50 ** Is it that there is a disease in their hearts? Or do they doubt or are they in fear that Allah and His Apostle will deal unjustly with them? ** Nay it is they themselves who do wrong.
[quote]
i have a question for you:
do you reject the Bible and Torah, even if there are people claiming that they have the authentic hadith (stories, gospels) about say Prophet Isa (saw)??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says hello. The torah and gospels have been altered that is why The Qur’an was revealed! in fact much of the contents of the current bible are from hadiths . because they have rebuild the bible based on hadiths and combined them together . which they had not verified or used a process of identifying its authenticity they are in a mess. But in Islam the Scripture (Qur’an ) is not combined with the hadiths and the Qur’an is INTACT and guaranteed its Intactness because it is the FINAL revelations for mankind by Allah (swt) . as for the hadiths the Muslims have an elaborate science to ensure its authenticity.
15: 9 We have without doubt sent down the Message;** and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).**
[quote]
of course some might be true and authentic BUT many more stories about Prophet ISa (saw) are made up by others!! And in my opinion the same holds for the hadith of the muslims some might be true but many more are made up!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: that is your opinion and not worth one cent in Islam. Because you are talking without knowledge and conjecturing about matters that are beyond your realm.
40:51 ** We will without doubt help** Our apostles ** and those who believe (both) in this world's life ** and on the Day when the Witnesses will stand forth
[quote]
even if there is a long list of trustworthy people mentioned, it just means these sayings are attributed to them AND DOES NOT mean they actually have said or done these things!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: what silliness is this? When there is a long list of trustworthy people, one must be truly ignorant or arrogant to think or imply , that they had lied or transmitted falsehood or someone just attributed the sayings to them. Since it was through those hadiths the very descendents of the Prophet (pbuh) as well as the companions established Islam for the rest of mankind.
Brother you keep contradicting your own statements , such people are indeed untrustworthy but pious Muslims that were fortunate enough to live at the time of The Prophet (pbuh) have been praised by Allah (swt) in the Qur’an itself.
Thus your statements are not only silly but down right slanderous. Kindly get help and correct your errors failing which, know for certain that you are transgressing the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) as well as the Qur’an
Kindly contemplate on.
49: 12 ** O ye who believe! avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin:** and spy not on each other** nor speak ill of each other behind their backs.** Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay ye would abhor it...but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-Returning Most Merciful.
10: 100 No soul can believe except by the Will of Allah and ** He will place Doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.**
was salaam
Ibrahim
** Be humble to TRUTH and follow it even If you hear it from a child **
[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
**Dear all, again, salaam
one more thing i find very irritating is that whenever someone doubts the hadith, the opposing party starts calling you a westerner (reference to Alpha1)!! sorry sire, although i live in the west, i am very much attached to my culture, language, history and above all RELIGION!! I am certainly not saying that i want to replace the hadith with western values (because i do not know which is better), i want to see the true picture of Islam, which in my opinion is distorted by the hadith!! The true picture of Islam is only given by the QUran!!!!!
Alpha1 is asking examples, well i already said in my previous post on stoning to death (this is a simple example)!! there is nothing in the Quran about stoning, the Quran talks about 100 stripes for adultery!!
Well there are hadith on this topic ( be it authentic or unauthentic)!!
So, if stoning was truly the punishment why didnot God send one more ayat through the Wahi to his Prophet (saw.). Did God forget this, or was God to shy to talk on this matter!! NOOOO, GOD says in the QURAN that this BOOK is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED and PERFECT. God has already given the punishment in the Quran which was 100 stripes for adultery!!
So according to the Quran ( the most fundamental CRITERION) all hadith on stoning are UNAUTHENTIC irrespective what bukhari and co. may claim!!**
[/quote]
In the interests of the discussion, please point to the Qur'anic ayahs that you are referring to, and secondly the references in the mujmuhul-sahih of Bukhari that point to stoning. Only than can we begin to discuss this.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says:
...........
26:196 Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.
Ibrahim says: even the former people had mystic books (hadiths) where they were informed of the Qur’an and the final prophet (pbuh) that is why people eventually excepted Islam with ease.
......
**
[/quote]
One translation I have for this verse is
26.196 Without doubt it is (announced) in the revealed Books of former peoples.
The other translation is:
26.196 And most surely the same is in the scriptures of the ancients.
How do you know for sure that Allah SWT is talking about "hadiths" books here?
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
.... Ibrahim says : that is YOUR misconception , hadith exist from the day men was born. Meaning what took place is reported form one person to another. Just like people reading this post or any matter may report it to another.....
[/quote]
I thought it was you who FIRST said that hadith existed from day man was born
Now you are saying:
[quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear filhaal, Obviously you are again talking without knowledge, hadiths are not stories but reports of actual conversations/interactions between the Prophet (pbuh) and his followers.
[/quote]
What is ur final word/definition about "hadith"? In my opinion, hadith may be a general word in lots of meaning as you mentioned, but the one a Muslim refers to is about Prophet Mohammed PBUH's narrations, events, discussions etc.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
*...... Ibrahim says; that is only an assumption but more studies and examinations of authentic hadiths will reveal otherwise. Just like there was need to destroy other compilations of the Qur’an when it had been coded into book form, hadith compilers would also destroy what ever earlier formats they were in possession of after they have made it into book form.
......
*
[/quote]
Would you mind providing any narration or some sorta proof that hadith collection (in part or complete) DID exist during Prophet Mohammed PBUH's lifetime? And when and who destroyed the other collections after Imam Bukhari (ra) and others coded them in a book form? I'd appreciate that.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: Dear sambrialian,
You don't have to lie or deceive in order to attract people to Islam.
Islam will grow immaterial of what I do or what others do
kindly read.
2: 42 And cover not Truth with falsehood nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
2:77 Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?
3: 71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while ye have knowledge?
Ibrahim says : Salaams to all
Dear sambrialian,
This is not dawah in the essence of it, what I am doing is more a rehabilitation program. Here the objective is to correct the errors of the person . Due to the medium where it allows even the devils to act as Muslims to misguide them, there is little option but to be direct and BLUNT about it, so long as ONLY the TRUTH is being conveyed.
I may sound harsh, I may use the rod , there is no option but that, when one identifies the problem, this is like rehabilitating drug addicts, there is only one way, it is called cold turkey, it can be harsh, but no other way.
quote:
And it is through my personal experiences that I feel that it is a big turn off (at least for me).
Ibrahim says: fully agree with you and I am aware of it but for some that is the only medicine and prescription , that is why I don’t preach on the net for I am more after the deviants and false propagators and let the other Muslim brothers and sisters like you do the preaching.
It is like a hat that I wear in this medium and that is currently my intention to resolve this increasing actions of the deviants and misguided propagation based on their whims and fancies .
Sorry, it will look and sound harsh to pious Muslims but there is no other way of stopping this disease , which left unattended will blossom into a monster that will ravage the generations to come. .
Hope that helps you understand why I act the way I do.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
the dead sea is dead only because it takes in water and doesn’t give any out.
YOU Keep circulating the good and the good will circulate you
**
[/quote]
Brother Ibrahim, kindly read....
quote:
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135
**
Ibrahim says: this verse was revealed concerning the emigrants and is to be cross referenced to this ayat.
4: 33 To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion: for truly Allah is Witness to all things
Ibrahim says: in other words When the emigration took place from Makkah to Madinah, bonds and links of brotherhood were established between the Emigrants and the Helpers, and they shared in each other's inheritance. Later, when the Community was solidly established, and relations with those left behind in Makkah were resumed, the rights of blood-relations in Makkah, and the Helper-brethren in Madinah were both safeguarded. This is the particular meaning. The more general meaning is similar; respect your ties of blood, of neighbourhood, and of friendly compacts and understandings. Be just to all.
The general commentary for the verse you are quoting is Some people may be inclined to favor the rich, because they expect something from them. Some people may be inclined to favour the poor because they are generally helpless. Partiality in either case is wrong. Be just, without fear of favour. Both the rich and the poor are under Allah's protection as far as their legitimate interests are concerned, but they cannot expect to be favoured at the expense of others. And He can protect their interests far better than any man.
Ibrahim says; Brother various verses were revealed for various purposes and have specific meaning and general meanings.
**
Dear Brother Ibrahim, As Salaam u Alaykum,
with reference to the verses you quoted above, and the general commentary of another verse which you made in another thread, I need you to explain that why these ayahs are not applicable to you?
2: 42 And cover not Truth with falsehood nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
2:77 Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?
3: 71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while ye have knowledge?
Brother Ibrahim, we all respect you for your knowledge and you have admitted yourself that you are harsh at times, and you have justified everything that you do as being "allowed" in Islam. How sure are you that you are always "Just"? How sure are you that you are not "biased"? How sure are you that you are always right? How sure are you that you do not have the "male ego"?
you quote that
**
"Be humble to TRUTH and follow it even If you hear it from a child"
16: 92 And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun after it has become strong. Nor take your oaths to practice deception between yourselves lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.
**
Have you ever thought of applying this to yourself?
Many a times you have been proved to be making "silly statements" but did you yourself admit your mistakes? No..! And the only reason you get away is because there are many people who respect you for your knowledge and they ignore your mistakes out of respect, and you take unjust advantage of everyone's respect.
Salam & Sorry, it will look and sound harsh to pious Muslims but there is no other way of stopping this disease , which left unattended will blossom into a monster that will ravage the generations to come. .
Ibrahim, I would like to know your opinion about this matter. I’ve told mine quite a few times and you’ve only attacked that without telling us clearly what you think about this matter. Can you please state your opinion about Hadith etc.?
I get the feeling that if it was upto you, the whole world would be transformed into a Taliban-like community!
From the other thread:
PyariCgudia,
Growing a beard isn’t what the Prophet(PBUH) did, but also something he ordered all muslims to do.
And by the way, Mahiwal is a he and not a she.
Ibrahim bhai,
You can keep your rod to yourself. This statement of yours shows how little you know of Islam. Any form of force or harshness is not permitted. So take your rod and go off on your own path with it.
Furthermore, the article I posted up has everything to do with this thread. In your own ignorance, and perhaps fear that your beautiful walls you've erected will come falling down, you dont even have the respect to read an article someone has put up? If you haven't read it, then how do you know its irrelevant?
Since you haven't even bothered to read the article, which is highly important and shows that hadith exist today and are used today, which very well may be false - then I really dont feel the need to answer any of your queries.
You dont give me respect, yet you expect me to respect YOU?
Shameful.
Husnain says: You have been claiming that where the Sunnah is to be followed, the hadeeth are not. By suggesting this, you have automatically nullified and rejected all hadeeth, whether authentic or fabricated. You did not make a difference between the different types of ahadeeth (i.e. fabricated, weak, authentic etc), which is precisely why i asked you the question in the first place to initiate this thread
I patiently REPOST something i already REPOSTED:
Thus, since I honestly believe that man is far from perfect, I also believe that you must be very cautious when dealing with hadith.
Historians Have compiled a life history of the prophet, of which much of it is known to be fact, since there is no contradicting reports on the matter. For example, under Sunnah would fall the Rasul's marriage to Khadija. No one argues this fact, because there is no report that states that he did not marry Khadija. This is an oversimplified example, of course, but this would be known as fact.
However, many hadith are debated still to this day (ironically most are about women), and it surprises me that some people support certain hadith when its so obvious (at least to me) that they're anti-woman.
If I'm understanding nescio here, he's pretty much on the same grounds I am. We dont deny that the Rasul gave advice and performed actions that were an expansion and a further explanation of the Quran, God's word. We also dont deny that this advice and actions were in any way wrong.
The sunnah, just like a random statement made by Jesus, does not exist in material form today. It can't. This requires muslims to do something that many muslims dont like to do. Question and analyze.
I dont care what anybody here says. Islam never forbid anyone from questioning and analyzing another Muslim's statements, and claims. In fact, Islam promotes education, nay, it DEMANDS educated followers, so that Islam is not misused.
I dont think, for the final time I say this, that all Hadith are wrong and erroneous. I do maintain that some are questionable, and these hadith should be treated as questionable and not as the pure Truth, which only the Quran can promise to give us.
Look at this one paragraph above very closely, and then reconsider your post that i've highlighted at the beginning of this post.
Also, i'd like to ask you, and being a great and religious Muslim you seem to claim to be thru your remarks, please tell me if you THOROUGHLY read the article I posted up?
Ibrahim certainly didn't. I'm wondering if you fall into his category as well.
[This message has been edited by PyariCgudia (edited July 09, 2002).]
What you cant seem to understand, PyariCgudia, is that the questionable ahadiths have been sorted out and marked as such, and the sorting hasn't been done according to the whims and desires of people but by those who are the Scholars of the Ummah, and who have used a strict science to do this to leave no room for doubts.