Assalaamo 'alaykum,
I noticed an interesting point that you made in another thread:
It’s actually the first time i’ve heard this, especially as the sunnan themselves are found and exctracted from ahadeeth.
I was just curious as to how you
differentiate the two?
“No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it.”
I understand your point.
Sunnah is essentially the life and actions of the Prophet - his teachings.
Hadith, however , has been reported by man. I've come across many hadith in which the narrarator was a child when the narrated incident happened. Also, the gender of the narrarator and his own bias due to his/her state of mind can throw bias onto a hadith.
I actually came across a very interesting site in which the author argued that some hadith which seem to be degrading to women and have often been cited by folks even on this forum, have been misunderstood by the narrarators in that perhaps the prophet said something in jest and the listener took it seriously and reported it as a serious comment.
I'll post up the link to the website soon.
Thus, since I honestly believe that man is far from perfect, I also believe that you must be very cautious when dealing with hadith. Obviously when a hadith is found that is in direct contradiction to a Quranic verse, it must be false. Likewise, we've come across some hadith, the perfume one that I was discussing under the musk thread, in which we found 2 hadith that contradicted one another. Yet despite this contradiction, which no one could explain and no one was willing to explain and instead I was advised to go seek religious help, people were still supporting the one that seemed to be against the woman wearing the perfume!
Historians have compiled a life history of the prophet, of which much of it is known to be fact, since there is no contradicting reports on the matter. For example, under Sunnah would fall the Rasul's marriage to Khadija. No one argues this fact, because there is no report that states that he did not marry Khadija. This is an oversimplified example, of course, but this would be known as fact.
However, many hadith are debated still to this day (ironically most are about women), and it surprises me that some people support certain hadith when its so obvious (at least to me) that they're anti-woman.
I will post up some more info on this to better explain my thoughts on the matter. And YES I have proof to back it up, although I do need to confirm some things from this particular essay I wish to post up illustrating my point. After confirmation, I'll post it up.
[quote]
Sunnah is essentially the life and actions of the Prophet - his teachings.
Hadith, ** however , has been reported by man**
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Sister, amazing! kindly tell us, who reported the sunnah but man?
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Sister, amazing! kindly tell us, who reported the sunnah but man? **
[/quote]
The difference between Sunnah and Hadeeth is the following:
Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!! there is NO contradiction between Sunnah and the Quran and thus I do NOT doubt the validity of Sunnah, because if I did that I would also doubt the Quran and that's a sin being a muslim.
the story is completely different with Hadith: hadith is merely the reporting of these Sunnah by human beings. And since these reports are human made, they are invariably (just like all other things done by humans) subjected to bias/corruption/mistakes/cultural-time influences/changes!
Furthermore the Quran states that Allah is going to protect the Quran from corruption and changes, nowhere in the Quran does it say that also the Hadith books are going to be protected. So it is very probable that these books have been changed once they were written.
So doubting the validity of Hadith is not being over-critical or sinful, NO! it is very right to do that! because you shouldn't believe everything u read apart from the Quran (this is just my opinion)
And then people come to me saying that "how can you reject Hadith??? the Companions had very good memory! they could remember up to 400000 hadiths! so you cannot reject it by assuming that the Companions made mistakes; on the contrary they had very good memory"
This argument is clearly false: if the Companions were able to remember 400000 Hadith correctly assuming they had a very good memory, how come that Bukhari only selected mere 7000 from these 400000 to put in his book! Clearly he found out that the memory of the companions wasn't that good as ppl said it was. And the remaining 393000 were clearly false. Otherwise he should have put those hadith in his book too!
Furthermore recently on dutch television there was a documentary on Islam. In this a (muslim) scientist/historician put the Hadith to the test (I don't know exaclty his methods), but his conclusion was that only 1 in 50 hadith has the potential to be authentic. The rest is clear-cut false. And even this 1 in 50 Hadith only has the potential, most probably even this one is made up!
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!!
hadith is merely the reporting of these Sunnah by human beings.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : My question was who reported them ( hadiths that reveals the sunnah) but men?
NeSCio care to tell us, who except human beings reported the sunnah???
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** NeSCio care to tell us, who except human beings reported the sunnah???
**
[/quote]
that is exactly my point!!! only mere humans reported the Sunnah in the form of Hadith!
And because humans (who can make mistakes) reported it in the form of Hadith you cannot follow the Hadith blindly!
So, in order to find out what the Sunnah was, you should read the Quran, because there is no contradiction between the Sunnah and the Quran.
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** that is exactly my point!!! only mere humans reported the Sunnah in the form of Hadith!
And because humans (who can make mistakes) reported it in the form of Hadith you cannot follow the Hadith blindly!
So, in order to find out what the Sunnah was, you should read the Quran, because there is no contradiction between the Sunnah and the Quran.
**
[/quote]
True.
The whole issue surrounds fatwa shopping to me. You ask the same question over and over again to different mullahs/maulvis/kazis until you get an answer that suits your own desires.
The true iman of the companions is an example we should follow. When the order to stop drinking wine came, they did not ask any questions, they spilt their drink. Same applies to music. You can still listen to it and acknowledge that what you are doing is wrong, rather than to make petty excuses and claim that the command against it is false. This would also apply to a sharabi. Nothing will physically stop you drinking, go ahead, but dont question the laws of Allah and try and make an excuse for your actions.
The reasoning will make no difference on the day of judgement whatsoever, better to acknowledge your are wrong.
As far as the accuracy of Hadith goes, there is a science or usool for their classification, and the wheat can be seperated from the chaff as it were. Using this, you can accept what is sunnah and what is not. Making such insinuations about their accuracy is what the ignorant and arrogant do.
The same people who recorded and transmitted the Qur'an are the very same people who recorded the sunnah and presented it to us.
Face up to it, what is Haram is Haram period.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 05, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**The same people who recorded and transmitted the Qur'an are the very same people who recorded the sunnah and presented it to us.
**
[/quote]
yes, but when these people recorded the Quran it was supervised by the Prophet himself.
Furthermore the Quran was recorded soon after it was revealed, and not (as is the case with the Hadith) 200 years after the prophet's death.
(and don't start talking about one or two companions who kept a diary with the prophet's sayings *during * his life, because u cannot generalize that to the overall collecting of Hadith)
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
only mere humans reported the Sunnah in the form of Hadith!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : salaams to all
Dear NeSCio,
which mean your earlier statement was false, since you claimed sunnah was not contradictory but hadiths can be contradictory and should be doubted
Now you cannot have it both way so make up your mind! Or admit you are making silly comments.
[quote]
And because humans (who can make mistakes) reported it in the form of Hadith you cannot follow the Hadith blindly!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: now you are twisting your own words, your earlier claim was sunnah was accurate but since we know for sure it is only recorded and known through the hadiths you say they are not accurate. How can that be?
BTW who talked about following anything blindly? The question was raised about YOUR claim that sunnah and hadiths are not the same because hadiths was reported by man. Which means the sunnah must come through some other source, which is not the case. So be accurate in your statements you are playing with fire and be sure it can burn you.
[quote]
So, in order to find out what the Sunnah was, you should read the Quran, because there is no contradiction between the Sunnah and the Quran.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: why would the Qur’an record all the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) when the Qur’an can only contain exchanges between the Prophet (pbuh) and Allah (swt) and other matters as revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) ?
And exchanges between the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions and people who asked questions concerning his ways would be compiled as the hadiths !
Let me now separate the grain from the chaff in your earlier post.
[quote]
Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hmm, Now apparently you and I cannot claim we witnessed this right? So how do we know what was said and done IF we do not refer to the hadiths?
I am not aware of any video clips from the time of the Prophet (pbuh) , are you??
[quote]
there is NO contradiction between Sunnah and the Quran and thus I do NOT doubt the validity of Sunnah, because if I did that I would also doubt the Quran and that's a sin being a muslim.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello, why would there be doubts in anything the Prophet (pbuh) said or did, when the Allah (swt) had made him the representative for mankind from his time frame and the hadiths we are using are from his time frame ?
Did you know many aspects of the Path that the Prophet (pbuh) took may not be found in the Qur’an and only confirmed through the hadiths ??
[quote]
the story is completely different with Hadith: hadith is merely the reporting of these Sunnah by human beings.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Meaning the same human beings (pious Muslims) whom Allah (swt) chose recorded and safeguarded the Qur’an , as well the sunnah, which eventually got recorded as hadiths, right? Or are you aware of any other methods?
[quote]
And since these reports are human made, they are invariably (just like all other things done by humans) subjected to bias/corruption/mistakes/cultural-time influences/changes!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello missing something dear? If the sunnah was transferred by the same people by the same methods why would the hadiths be any different? At the same time did you not know there were people opposing Islam and they will also invent their own hadiths in the hope of misguiding the Muslims?
Now at this time frame, since we will have both the authentic and the unauthentic hadiths in our presence, don’t you think, you should try and find out which is which before passing erroneous comments?
[quote]
Furthermore the Quran states that Allah is going to protect the Quran from corruption and changes, nowhere in the Quran does it say that also the Hadith books are going to be protected.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : In other words Allah (swt) assigned a prophet to guide mankind and forgot to ensure his teachings will be protected, right? That is silly because it was through his teachings, practices and guidance’s men became Muslims because the Qur’an commanded men to follow the Prophet (pbuh) ( meaning what he said and did.)
Did you notice that not everything that Allah (swt) approved for mankind is found in the Qur’an?
[quote]
So it is very probable that these books have been changed once they were written.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Probable?? So is it not also probable that you may be erroneous in your opinions ?
[quote]
So doubting the validity of Hadith is not being over-critical or sinful, NO!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Ah yes, Nescio said so and we need to follow necsio in this matter?, did you by some chance receive some revelation to this effect? Or is your opinions based on your whims and fancies and the whims and fancies of those who wanted to destroy Islam by trying to negate the hadiths?
[quote]
it is very right to do that! because you shouldn't believe everything u read apart from the Quran (this is just my opinion)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Thank God, it was all only your opinion but surely you have heard
2:32 They ( Angels) said: "Glory to Thee ** of knowledge we have none save that Thou hast taught us:** in truth it is Thou who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
Ibrahim says: when the angels declined to give their opinions about what they do not know for sure, Would it be just ignorance or arrogance on your part to claim you know better than those who had strived from the beginning to keep the hadiths in its pristine form and transmitted them in that order ?
The same hadiths which gives us the sunnah as well teach us what the Prophet did and said
Or maybe
31:6 But there are** among men those who purchase idle tales without knowledge (or meaning) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path)** : for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.
7 When Our Signs are rehearsed ** to such a one he turns away in arrogance as if he heard them not as if there were deafness in both his ears:** announce to him a grievous Penalty.
[quote]
And then people come to me saying that "how can you reject Hadith??? the Companions had very good memory! they could remember up to 400000 hadiths! so you cannot reject it by assuming that the Companions made mistakes; on the contrary they had very good memory"
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: where did this come from? Is this suppose to prove your point, which you claimed was YOUR opinion?
[quote]
This argument is clearly false: if the Companions were able to remember 400000 Hadith correctly assuming they had a very good memory, how come that Bukhari only selected mere 7000 from these 400000 to put in his book! Clearly he found out that the memory of the companions wasn't that good as ppl said it was. And the remaining 393000 were clearly false. Otherwise he should have put those hadith in his book too!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hmm, only shows the limitations in your ability to comprehend the wisdom behind sorting. Heard of sorting? It works in this manner
Everything is collected immaterial from where and then it is sorted out according to who said what? Whose words are accurate and reliable by cross referencing what others said. Who has forgotten parts and only remember in parts . whose works that were already in written form needed no scrutiny or sorting.
Why because this compiler only wanted to compile what was “Sahih”, not everything but only the sahih, and that is why he called it Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadiths
Whereas other compilers had other methods and precedence of recording what they heard.
In other words, lets say the same hadith was reported by a thousand people and by collecting all of them from various mouths, one is certain to identify , if there has been any changes in the reporting also one is certain to identify who is the original reporter and after doing all this . ** One only need to record it, “ONCE”, not a thousand times ! and when there is slight variations, one records both in order to ensure both versions exist for cross referencing.** The rest which are identical are destroyed . this is simple but I guess simple things are too hard for you to understand. Thus after all the sorting ONLY about 7275 out of some 300,000 needed to be rerecorded as sahih when they have gone through meticulous procedure of identifying its authenticity. ( meaning there were no doubts as to it being sahih.) All this was easy for people who lived a thousand years ago since there had no corruption of their minds as we do today and they were men /women present amongst the people who were eyes witnesses to those events
[quote]
Furthermore recently on dutch television there was a documentary on Islam. In this a (muslim) scientist/historician put the Hadith to the test (I don't know exaclty his methods), but his conclusion was that only 1 in 50 hadith has the potential to be authentic. The rest is clear-cut false. And even this 1 in 50 Hadith only has the potential, most probably even this one is made up!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: O Lord! what silliness is this?? You mean another person gave his opinion and you fell for that too?
Now my point being criticism are just personal opinions and opinions means nothing in Islam, only the naive Muslims will be led by opinions of others.
Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** 3:160 If Allah helps you none can overcome you: if He forsakes you who is there after that that can help you? In Allah then let believers put their trust.**
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** yes, but when these people recorded the Quran it was supervised by the Prophet himself.
Furthermore the Quran was recorded soon after it was revealed, and not (as is the case with the Hadith) 200 years after the prophet's death.
(edited July 05, 2002).]**
[/quote]
I have some questions for you based on what you have said:
What evidence do you have that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammmed ibn Abdullah, al-Hashmi al-Quraishi (saw)?
What evidence do you have that:
[quote]
yes, but when these people recorded the Quran it was supervised by the Prophet himself.
[/quote]
????
What answer is there to either of these two questions, other than the fact that the Companions witnessed all this, told their subsequant generations, they told thiers, and so forth.
The fact that a narration may have been collected 200 years after the event, does not mean that the narration was created 200 years after.
Your argument is a dangerous one, because you now place a doubt on the Qur'an itself, since what proof other than Hadiths is there that any of this took place some 1400 years ago???????????????????
I say again, the classification of Hadiths is done by the usool of the muhadatheen. If you understand at least this, then you will know which narrations are true and which are false.
But then at the end of the day, if people choose to abandon the sunnah then there is no forcing them to the contrary, but please, dont ridicule Islam in the process.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 05, 2002).]
All I'm saying is that there are information streams from the Prophet to us. And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!
thess information streams are as follows for me:
God send the Quran to the Prophet----->
the Prophet brought the Quran to the ppl------->
and they wrote it down and passed it on!
for me this information stream is intact!
apart from this there's another stream:
the Prophet's teachings (the Sunnah), which weren't contra-dictory to Quran: in other words, the essence of his teachings can also be found in the Quran itself.
Prophet's teachings-------> seen by the companions--------> they remembered and passes on ORALLY--------> passed on ORALLY again------->and again--------->and again---------->and again------------->and again---------->collected by Bukhari.
Now I need not explain to you that orally passed on messages are very sensitive to minor changes, and that these changes can be far-reaching! And also that these messages are very easily changed to your liking, hence for example the many hadith which exist discriminating against women.
and since I said that the essence of his teachings can also be found in the Quran itself, why rely on very unreliable data, if you can get more accurate and to the point data out of the Quran????
and as far as the dutch documentary is concerned: where did I say that I believed him on his word!? I only said that it's an interesting observation he made! We should think about it, and try to find out what truth is there in his observation!
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]
In fact, what evidence is there in what you say about the Qur'an being recorded as soon as it was revealed?
Other than Hadith's what else do you have to substantiate this?
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
**All I'm saying is that there are information streams from the Prophet to us. And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Dont back out of this! You made a statement about the Quran being recorded and supervised by the Nabi (saw). Where did you get this???
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
**God send the Quran to the Prophet----->
the Prophet brought the Quran to the ppl------->
and they wrote it down and passed it on!
for me this information stream is intact!
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Then how do you know that this information stream as you call it is intact? How do you know that any of this took place?
Again I reiterate my point of view: that the Hadith should be taken as history-writing!!!! Just like a history-book u read on school.
And these books CAN contain very usuful knowledge, BUT these books should NOT be considered as a means of living next to the Quran!!!
and as far sa the questions of Alpha1 are concerned, I agree with PyariCguria:
[quote]
Historians have compiled a life history of the prophet, of which much of it is known to be fact, since there is no contradicting reports on the matter. For example, under Sunnah would fall the Rasul's marriage to Khadija. No one argues this fact, because there is no report that states that
he did not marry Khadija. This is an oversimplified example, of course, but this would be known as fact
[/quote]
just see the post above
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
(btw i didn’t say it was recorded by him, I said it was recorded *by the companions * during his life and supervised by him…this just shows u that information can be changed, even when it is present only one scroll upwards)
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
*Again I reiterate my point of view: that the Hadith should be taken as history-writing!!!! Just like a history-book u read on school.
[/quote]
*
So Hadith's can be accepted as history? This again stems down to Fatwa-shopping. Hadith is ok so long as it just informs, it is not ok, and is corrupted and false when it tells you to do something you do not like.
What then, causes the leap of faith in your mind to accept the Qur'an, based on a Hadith? Think about this one, you are reading a historical document that says to you that there exists a man in history to whom was revealed a kitab and that this kitab should be followed. If you accept such a historical account and then base your life around it, then what stops you (other than your own whims and desires) to not do the same to another hadith that teaches you how to behave and conduct yourself according to what the Messenger of Allah (saw) said?
You appear to say that so long as a historical fact is support by a mutlitude of sources, then it is correct, then you have argued my own view that is Hadith's that have been scrutinized and passed the criteria of the muhaditheen are only collected by some of the scholars you have mentioned.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 05, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 05, 2002).]
Recorded (i.e. the companions) and supervised by the Messenger of Allah (saw).
Rather then playing with my words, why dont you answer the question itself which is how can you believe in such a statement from a Hadith when that Hadith as you say can become corrupted over time.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 05, 2002).]
Nescio, you are right all the way...JazakAllah!
Quran hasn't been rewritten but hadiths have been written over and over again. They were passed on to scholars from thousands of years ago. Thus, we can't compare hadiths with the Quran. We can't really trust each and EVERY hadith, can we?