Dear PyariCgudia

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Asalaam ualikum W'r W'b;
PyariCgudia, I dont know why you keep bringing up points which you have no knowledge of. When you say that ahadiths have been found invalid and thrown out, and there might be many more which haven't been doubted yet, this is where you're wrong.

You haven't studied the science of Ahadiths and you're making assumptions. My advice to you is: Next time before you try to enforce your point of view, do read up on it. And another thing, your attitude isn't that of a learner (a learner says: I ask, I think, I might be wrong, Please help me understand the following), rather it is of someone who is debating with others in an issue where you only have opinions, and not facts.

Stay tuned, I'll open up a new post for the authenticity of Ahadiths today, maybe it'll be of some help to you.

82

Mahiwal, then how would you respond to the post that i've put up containing the article that scientifically debunks certain hadith which we have been citing so far in our own arguments here on GS, and elsewhere in the world?

83

And another thing, your attitude isn't that of a learner

It really does surprise me how much pple think I'm the bane of this thread. Carefully read my replies again, and you will see that I have asked for criticism for the article that I have posted up, and also any information that would prove the article to be faulty. I do wish to learn, as can be clearly seen by these requests. Which by the way, no one has obliged me with as yet. Am I to take everyone's silence to the question to mean the article is correct?

Furthermore, I have listened to everyone's points of views and I certainly have not thrown it into anyone's face by insinuating they are woman spinning yarns, or they are wrong in any way. Also, I have answered the question put to me by Husnain which started the thread. Those who have disagreed, I have not shown any disrespect to them for having a different opinion as the issue definitely is debatable, and no correct answer exists except in our own minds and to God's knowledge.

I do thank you for your concern in my attitude though, and I'd like to correct your misconception. I do wish to learn. I'll be eagerly awaiting your next post.

84

[quote]
PyariCgudia: I have answered the question that you think I haven't. If you dont agree, then that is your problem to deal with.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Sister! where have you answered the question, kindly tell me? Because I don’t see an answer but a change of direction and more spin .

[quote]
** I know that I'm right,** and even though many people aren't speaking up, I know I'm not alone on this matter.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I have proven you wrong, so please, refute what I said, IF you think you are right! Your claims are false and you have cast doubts upon all the hadiths by your FIRST incompetent statements that you and Nescio have made in this thread , which due to your stubbornness you wish not to admit or retract.

It is not a problem , if you were talking about some ordinary people ( me included ) but you have cast doubts upon even the mother of believers including the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) . who have transmitted many hadiths that Muslims relied upon

[quote]
I also find it very immature of you to continue posting a quranic ayah in which you are basically tellling me that I'm violating God's law by spinning tales like an old woman.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Hello, you are only old enough to be my daughter, even though I address you as my sister! So get help and find out who is mature and who is not whwen you can THINK rationally .

An ayah from the Qur’an is an ayah it is meant to provide guidance, if you don’t like it, it must be due to what you harbor in your mind and heart.

BTW it is a pity you don’t understand what that ayah is conveying , it is not about old women spinning tales , it is about women like you who are stubborn and will not listen, but in their rage and blind desire will destroy anything and everything ( even something they would have sat and spun for ages), ** when they don’t have it their way. **

[quote]
Its not very muslim of you, and although I'm not going to ask you to stop, I will say that if you want to make me cry, you'll need to try harder.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: so now quoting the Qur’an is also not Muslim of me ?

Was salaam
Ibrahim

16: 92 ** And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun after it has become strong. ** Nor take your oaths to practice deception between yourselves lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; ** and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.**

85

Ibrahim: there is a difference between 'doubting' and 'rejecting'.

Doubting is to questions the validity. After verifiying the validity one either accepts or rejects!
And I said: that I doubt the Hadith, I nowhere said that I reject all Hadith.

please don't put words in another's mouth! I nowhere said that I reject (all) hadith, I said that I doubt hadith!
Please verify your definitions of the various words used before starting a discussion!

another point where you put words in another's mouth:

PyaariCguria said:
"there is a difference between hadith and sunnah."

How can you conclude from this statement that:

"Meaning the hadiths and sunnah are not from the same source and she knew how to differentiate the two , for which Brother Hasnain wanted to know how"

she has nowhere said that SHE knows how to differentiate between the two. Furthermore, both these things CAN be transmitted by the same ppl but via different medium!(written (= Quran) and orally (=Hadith))

Furthermore, please refrain from making personal remarks if you want to have a discussion with me. (you've often called me/my opinion silly/whims/lack of knowledge etc)

please consider these points before starting a discussion and it will be very much appreciated.

[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 08, 2002).]

86

where have you answered the question, kindly tell me?

Ibrahim bhai, please scroll up a bit until you see my post in which i've cut and reposted my previous comments in BOLD. There you will see the question which Husnain put forward answered.

Nescio: Thank you so much, I couldn't have said it better myself.

87

[quote]
BTW it is a pity you don’t understand what that ayah is conveying , it is not about old women spinning tales , it is about women like you who are stubborn and will not listen, but in their rage and blind desire will destroy anything and everything ( even something they would have sat and spun for ages), when they don’t have it their way.
[/quote]

Mr. Ibrahim, do you have no shame???

Do you even KNOW what the Qur'an is all about?? Did you even try and understand what this verse conveys?? The context?? the relevance of the simile? The style of the Qur'an in which numerous such examples have been cited to make the discourse more powerful??

What makes you think this verse is about stubborn women? proof now.. not your whims and fancies and lord oh lord, certainly not those totally irrelevant copy pasted babble!

What makes you think this is about women who 'destroy' everything they have made in their "rage and blind desire"?

Admin/Sentinel i'd appreciate if you would stay away from this post of mine as I want answers from the 'knowledgable' Mr. Ibrahim who feels free to twist Qur'anic verses to derive meanigs that boosts his complexed male ego to insult women.

**Note from moderator:... and i would appreciate it if you would choose your words of expression a little more maturely and less emotionally.

Sentinel.**

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited July 08, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited July 09, 2002).]

88

salaam to all,

how are you all doing??

for some time i have been a member of gupshup and hence visiting gupshup and reading your views on this topic concerning the hadith and its position within Islam.

I largely agree with NesCio concerning the position of hadith. I would like to add a few comments:

Although i am a muslim, I find it quite ironical, that large numbers of muslims today ridicule christians and jews that the Gospels, Psalms and Torah should be rejected because they have been distorted due to human interpretation, misconceptions, evil intents etc, over the course of time but in the same breath also hold on to something which is equally distorted namely the hadith!!
After such a blatent remarks many of you will start calling me apostate etc.......but wait!!

Hadith is a collection of stories collected after a period of 150-200 years after the Prophet Mohammad (saw) had left this world. In other words this is merely history-writing done by Bukhari sahib and co!!!Just like the gospels were collected and written 140 years after Prophet Isa (saw) had left this world and the Torah was distorted over a period of 900 years after Prophet Musa (saw) had left this world!!

of course, the shahaba of all these prophets had tried to transmit the sayings and teaching as accurately as possible!! But this is not the point!! (and of course, i trust the shahaba). the point is that things have been attributed to the prophets also by other people. who are these other people?? these could be his enemies, but also people who converted to islam and started attributing things, that were part of their earlier religions, to the Prophet (saw)which he never (could have) said. New generations have often misused the name of Prophets and their shahaba by attributing to them different sayings!!

example: numerous hadith on stoning to death!!
Nowhere in the Quran is it written to stone someone to death for adultary!! the hadith-defenders claim to have a hadith in which it is written that an ayat on this matter had been eaten by a goat!!(ridiculous)
the stoning to death is something from the Old Testament and NOT from the Quran.

Even more ridiculous is that all over the world islamic countries try to implement this role in their shariah by saying they are following the word of God, but in fact they are following the Old Testament of the jews!!

Now I come to the second point!!
The second thing which i find very disturbing is that although the majority of muslims claim that the Quran is the word of God and as we have it today it is UNDISTORTED (and I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!), but again in the same breath claim to need the hadith to understand it and even go sofar to claim that the hadith SUPPLEMENTS the Quran!!! (in other words the Quran is deficient)

In the Quran it is written that the Quran is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED and PERFECT for our salvation !!!!(if someone wants the ayat numbers, i can provide these in a future post!!) And still different people claim that some ayats are abrogated by others and needing the hadith for understanding the QUran!! People even go so far to say that the Quran in principal can not be understood except for some pir, fakir, mulah or sheikh!!
So all these bright young student spend their time and in some cases their whole lives on understanding the hadith.

Of course there are some practical limitations such as language but this also holds for the hadith or any other book. But my point is that Quran is IN PRINCIPAL understandable by the majority of people!! and thus you do not need the hadith to understand the Quran!!

I can go on, but i would like to read your comments on what i have written so far!!

One more thing: I totally agree with the Sunnah (His sayings, deeds) of the Prophet (saw) which is the same as the Quran, but do not agree in many cases with the hadith (the collections of bukhari et co.)which contradicts the Quran in several cases!!!!!!

89

Some people here said that Quran was stored in same hearts/memories as Hadith and Sunnah. The important point is the last format of Quran was COMPILED in WRITTEN form in time of Hazrat Usman RA. And many sahabas had it written when Quran was revealed.

Its very different for Hadith/Sunnah of Prophet PBUH. Shia brothers claim that Hazrat Ali RA had a compiled book of Ahadith/Sunnah, but other than that there was NO book/collection/written form of Ahadith/Sunnah.

Also, there was a BIG conflict of interests during and after Hazrat Ali RA's caliphacy. Several ahadith were fabricated (not ALL). The collectors of Ahadith like Imam Bukhari did a pretty good job in collection, but it does not necessarily guarantee that ALL ahadith are PERFECT and TRUE.

Scholars have done good job in trying to identify weak, fabricated, good and strong ahadith... its our judgement which will be counted.

Would a SCHOLAR be held responsible for our BAD deeds because we believed in him as source? Would we be free if that scholar makes a mistake and leads us to wrong path/decision?

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

90

I agree with the 3 above posts.

I also dont understand where Ibrahim came up with that explanation of the Quranic Ayah discussed above by P.Abroad.

91

[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
Ibrahim: there is a difference between 'doubting' and 'rejecting'. Doubting is to questions the validity. After verifiying the validity one either accepts or rejects!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Dear NeSCio, When the earliest Muslims, who have been entrusted to establish Islam amongst mankind by Allah (swt) have studied and compiled what is established and certified as authentic, the question of doubts would only be raised by those lacking in knowledge, don’t you think so?

On the other hand the deviants would indeed try to promote unauthentic hadiths, and only those who lack knowledge may end up following unauthentic hadiths, don’ you think so?

Thus when you, say the undermentioned……

[quote]
Nescio said:
1) Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!! there is NO contradiction between Sunnah and the Quran and thus I do NOT doubt the validity of Sunnah, because if I did that I would also doubt the Quran and that's a sin being a muslim.

2) ** And since these reports are human made,** they are invariably (just like all other things done by humans) ** subjected to bias/corruption/mistakes/cultural-time influences/changes! **

3) ** So doubting the validity of Hadith is not being over-critical or sinful, NO! it is very right to do that!** because you shouldn't believe everything u read apart from the Quran (this is just my opinion)

4) All I'm saying is that there are information streams from the Prophet to us. ** And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!**

[/quote]

Ibrahim says. Which boils down to an incompetent assessment of what hadiths are , meaning Muslims rely upon Authentic hadiths and they reject unauthentic hadiths, here you did not separate or define it, but went on to say hadiths, meaning all hadiths immaterial of source must be doubted as per the whims and fancies of readers.

Such a statement is very silly and cannot be allowed in an Islamic environment .

** If you specifically referred to unauthentic hadiths, I will agree with you but you practically lumped all hadiths into the same basket.**

[quote]
And I said: that I doubt the Hadith, I nowhere said that I reject all Hadith.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Nescio where have I said that you rejected all hadiths. ??? I recall I quoted what you said , so kindly point to me where I have changed your statements.?

What I am saying is that you have cast doubts on all hadiths, due to lack of knowledge, which will mislead many, because many of the authentic hadiths are transmitted by the Mothers of believers or by the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) and they were certified “sahih” after meticulous research ( a science of its own) from the beginning.

Your problem is you have been misled and my problem is that you are misleading others.

[quote]
please don't put words in another's mouth! I nowhere said that I reject (all) hadith, I said that I doubt hadith!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Nescio Do yourself a favor see how I respond? I quote what others said and I respond below, so kindly quote me and respond, since I am unable to locate your current response is with regards to which post of mine?

** Kindly show me where I have said what you say I have said? **

[quote]
PyaariCguria said:
"there is a difference between hadith and sunnah."

How can you conclude from this statement that:

"Meaning the hadiths and sunnah are not from the same source and she knew how to differentiate the two , for which Brother Hasnain wanted to know how"
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ** Maybe you forgot about what else she said ** , let me help you

She answered: Sunnah is essentially the life and actions of the Prophet - his teachings. Hadith, ** however ,** has been reported by man

Thus according to both of you hadiths were reported by man, so we need to doubt them but sunnah is also reported by man but we need not doubt them

Do you notice the silliness in your statements?

[quote]
she has nowhere said that SHE knows how to differentiate between the two.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : exactly! that is why I have been asking why she said hadiths where written by man which has to be doubted (as both of you insist) and why sunnah is not contradictory when it is written/transmitted by the same men as hadiths?

So far neither of you have answered this question.

[quote]
Furthermore, both these things CAN be transmitted by the same ppl but via different medium!(written (= Quran) and orally (=Hadith))
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I repeat both were transmitted in both forms, your above claim is flawed due to lack of knowledge. . .

[quote]
Furthermore, please refrain from making personal remarks if you want to have a discussion with me. (you've often called me/my opinion silly/whims/lack of knowledge etc)
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : that is not meant to be personal but my assessment of what you are saying and due to the nature of the erroneous comment made by you I need to establish this fact or else I would be allowing misconceptions, which need to be rooted out in Islam.

Meaning you are misleading Muslims due to lack of knowledge and it becomes my duty to reestablish the TRUTH that you are making silly comments.

Not commenting on them as I do, will lead to more silly people ending up thinking the way you do.

[quote]
please consider these points before starting a discussion and it will be very much appreciated.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Nescio, am I to understand you just dropped in? this discussion has reached 4 pages, and I had asked you some questions, would you be kind enough to answer them and continue or you wish to avoid them ?

Let me make this CLEAR again

1) Unauthentic hadiths have to be doubted and rejected in Islam
2) Authentic Hadiths have to be verified for its accuracy
3) Any scriptural quotes must have references for re-verifications
4) Muslims should verify all information before accepting them

** If you said any of the above, I would praise you **

but since you said

1) And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!
2) these reports are human made
3) Sunnah is not contradictory but hadiths are contradictory

I have to establish the truth that you are in error and misguided

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** Many know what they are fleeing form, but not what they are in search of. **

92

[quote]
Ibrahim bhai, please scroll up a bit until you see my post in which i've cut and reposted my previous comments in BOLD. There you will see the question which Husnain put forward answered.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : PyariCgudia, Please scroll down after that and read how I have refuted all your claims and established that you are in error. FOR WHICH I SEE NO REPLY

93

[quote]
filhaal: but in the same breath also hold on to something which is equally distorted namely the hadith!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : salaams to all

Dear filhaal ,

Which hadith or does the term hadith apply to all hadiths?

[quote]
Hadith is a collection of stories collected after a period of 150-200 years after the Prophet Mohammad (saw) had left this world.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : that is YOUR misconception , hadith exist from the day men was born. Meaning what took place is reported form one person to another. Just like people reading this post or any matter may report it to another.

So the moment you say hadiths only came into existence when it was colleted and compiled after 15O-200 years after the prophet, you are talking without knowledge.

[quote]
In other words this is merely history-writing done by Bukhari sahib and co!!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Apparently you do not understand hadiths are tracked backwards to the person who said them, so your theory of it being history writing is flawed.

[quote]
of course, the shahaba of all these prophets had tried to transmit the sayings and teaching as accurately as possible!! But this is not the point!! (and of course, i trust the shahaba).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Now you are contradicting your own statements.

[qupote] the point is that things have been attributed to the prophets also by other people. who are these other people?? these could be his enemies, but also people who converted to islam and started attributing things, that were part of their earlier religions, to the Prophet (saw)which he never (could have) said. New generations have often misused the name of Prophets and their shahaba by attributing to them different sayings!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Exactly that is why there will be unauthentic hadiths present amongst mankind, immaterial of how much the companions and compilers have ensured that only Authentic sayings are persevered by them.

At the same time when the compilers have ONLY compiled authentic sayings, it would be foolish to doubt those compilers, who had spent their lifetime putting them together.
Further more it would be foolish to think, Allah (swt) would not have helped such persons to achieve those goals .

[quote]
example: numerous hadith on stoning to death!!
Nowhere in the Quran is it written to stone someone to death for adultary!! the hadith-defenders claim to have a hadith in which it is written that an ayat on this matter had been eaten by a goat!!(ridiculous) the stoning to death is something from the Old Testament and NOT from the Quran.
[/quote]
.

Ibrahim says : see here is where you ended up misguiding Muslims in ignorance, Authentic hadiths will reveal that the Prophet ( pbuh) approved stoning and unauthentic hadiths will says such verses were eaten by goats

So, since you are Muslim , what have you done to identify which hadith is saying as what? Why have you in your ignorance spread follies of those who invented falsehoods?

Furthermore when you deny what the Prophet approved (pbuh) you are also denying what Allah (swt) approved!

[quote]
Even more ridiculous is that all over the world islamic countries try to implement this role in their shariah by saying they are following the word of God, but in fact they are following the Old Testament of the jews!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says No! they are following What Allah (swt) approved as revealed to the Prophet of Islam as well as prophets before him.

[quote]
but again in the same breath claim to need the hadith to understand it and even go sofar to claim that the hadith SUPPLEMENTS the Quran!!! (in other words the Quran is deficient)
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: again this is due to lack of knowledge, The Qur’an contains most but not all of the revelations as given to the Prophet (pbuh). Matters that had not been found in it, were given to the Prophet ( pbuh) to be put into action and not mentioned in the Qur’an . These actions will include the method of prayers even , which had to be institutionalized but not to the extent that it MUST be in EXACTLY in one form or another but having basic guidelines only .

The reason being any failure to comply would amount to a sin, so it has been prescribed with laxity and not added into the Qur’an

[quote]
In the Quran it is written that the Quran is COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED and PERFECT for our salvation !!!!(if someone wants the ayat numbers, i can provide these in a future post!!) And still different people claim that some ayats are abrogated by others and needing the hadith for understanding the QUran!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: yes both are true, the fundamentals are given in complete form in the Qur’an itself, the requirements to achieve these fundamentals were left to the Prophet (pbuh) , who was guided by the angel. that too was mentioned in the Qur’an by the command to obey the prophet and do what he tells us to do.

[quote]
People even go so far to say that the Quran in principal can not be understood except for some pir, fakir, mulah or sheikh!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what people say is ONLY what people say, but since like in all cases there specialists in certain fields, don’t you think specialists may know better that others?

[quote]
So all these bright young student spend their time and in some cases their whole lives on understanding the hadith.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : don’t be naïve ! when you say “ALL” can you give the statistics?

[quote]
Of course there are some practical limitations such as language but this also holds for the hadith or any other book. But my point is that Quran is IN PRINCIPAL understandable by the majority of people!! and thus you do not need the hadith to understand the Quran!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says maybe you should have asked Allah (swt) this question! Because what you are saying is that Allah (swt) had no need for a prophet to explain and guide his followers and can have just given mankind a book and be done with it.

[quote]
but do not agree in many cases with the hadith (the collections of bukhari et co.)which contradicts the Quran in several cases!!!!!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: which “sahih” hadiths contradict the Qur’an?

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** Measure twice cut ONCE **

94

Ibrahim , really, dil karta hai ke main tumhe zor ki thapar maaroon.

You wrote the following right?

1) Unauthentic hadiths have to be doubted and rejected in Islam
2) Authentic Hadiths have to be verified for its accuracy
3) Any scriptural quotes must have references for re-verifications
4) Muslims should verify all information before accepting them

This is what me and NESCIO HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! Agar tumhe English pahrne nahi aati, tho yeh meri problem nahi hai. Let me expand.

1) Unauthentic hadiths have to be doubted and rejected in Islam

Yes, of course, some of that has already been done. Our point is that the so-called early muslims you talk about were not perfect muslims. There is no such thing as a perfect muslim. Thus, there is still more work to do, and most of it is in the hadith regarding women, such as has been discussed in the article above. These hadith were not discarded by early muslims, or bukhari or al muslim. They are still used today, especially by guppies , for which reason i posted the article. If this article has some valid points, its safe to assume there might be more hadith out there which are being pushed down the throats of muslims, and which are totally wrong -- however, since they agree with cultural norms, they're used and quoted. As a muslim, the fight for knowledge is neverending. So lets use our knowledge and not be afraid to doubt hadith that seem to be wrong. And questioning always begins when one has a "khutkaa" that something is amiss. I had a "khutkaa" that the infertility hadith I picked up off the internet was amiss somewhere. If I had not posted it up here, and if you hadn't corrected me, then I would have gone on to think Islam doesn't give rights to infertile women. Thank God I doubted!

2) Authentic Hadiths have to be verified for its accuracy

You have said what i've been saying all along here yourself. You accuse us of doubting each hadith we come across, yet if you dont treat each new hadith you come across as doubtable, then why would u scurry off to verify its authenticity? And verifying authenticity doesn't mean flipping pages of al-bukhari, but also involves comparing with Quranic verses, checking ag/other hadith to look for conflicting reports, opening up some history books, doing a profile check on the reporter of the hadith to see if maybe they had some other bias, etc.

3) Any scriptural quotes must have references for re-verifications

no duh.

4) Muslims should verify all information before accepting them

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!

Geez, Ibrahim. When one reads, one must understand the sentences as well as read them.

95

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
Its very different for Hadith/Sunnah of Prophet PBUH. Shia brothers claim that Hazrat Ali RA had a compiled book of Ahadith/Sunnah, but other than that there was NO book/collection/written form of Ahadith/Sunnah.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; that is only an assumption but more studies and examinations of authentic hadiths will reveal otherwise. Just like there was need to destroy other compilations of the Qur’an when it had been coded into book form, hadith compilers would also destroy what ever earlier formats they were in possession of after they have made it into book form.

[quote]
Also, there was a BIG conflict of interests during and after Hazrat Ali RA's caliphacy. Several ahadith were fabricated (not ALL). The collectors of Ahadith like Imam Bukhari did a pretty good job in collection, but it does not necessarily guarantee that ALL ahadith are PERFECT and TRUE.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: No! fabricated reports will exist from day one because there is a shaitan and there was oppositions to the Prohethood BUT all these is not what Islam relies upon . Muslims rely upon AUTHENTIC hadiths , others although they exist are rejected by the knowledgeable. But those who have limited knowledge or NO knowledge get caught up with the unauthentic stuff, which leads them to all sorts of erroneous thoughts and judgments

[quote]
Scholars have done good job in trying to identify weak, fabricated, good and strong ahadith... its our judgement which will be counted.
[/quote]

Ibrahim say: IS that not clear when Allah (swt) said you have been shown the two ways?

[quote]
Would a SCHOLAR be held responsible for our BAD deeds because we believed in him as source?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: yes! Because the sinners will accuse those that had misguided them and ask for justice and those that misguide will have to face their own works

[quote]
Would we be free if that scholar makes a mistake and leads us to wrong path/decision?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: this will depend on what he said and what you did. End of the day It is Allah (swt) who knows best and His judgments are NEVER unjust.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** one just man cause the devil greater affliction than a million blind worshippers **

96

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
You wrote the following right?

1) Unauthentic hadiths have to be doubted and rejected in Islam
2) Authentic Hadiths have to be verified for its accuracy
3) Any scriptural quotes must have references for re-verifications
4) Muslims should verify all information before accepting them

This is what me and NESCIO HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!

[/quote]

Ibrahim says : PyariCgudia , NO! you did not say any of the above, so track back and read you own statements and don’t let me prove you a liar.

[quote]
Our point is that the so-called early muslims you talk about were not perfect muslims.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Oh and you were a witness to that?

[quote]
There is no such thing as a perfect muslim.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: meaning you are judge as to who is what? Or meaning you can slander anyone you like .

[quote]
Thus, there is still more work to do, and most of it is in the hadith regarding women, such as has been discussed in the article above.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: that is your folly due to your current situation. STOP Talking about your article which most may have not read, including me because that wa not apart of this discussion.

[quote]
These hadith were not discarded by early muslims, or bukhari or al muslim. They are still used today, especially by guppies , for which reason i posted the article.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: here you go again these hadiths, what hadiths? , you mean any hadith which reveals info on women that you do not like is false?

[quote]
If this article has some valid points, its safe to assume there might be more hadith out there which are being pushed down the throats of muslims, and which are totally wrong -- however, since they agree with cultural norms, they're used and quoted.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says : you are talking nonsense. So go and find out how hadiths are classified, it is a science of its own, after that try and find out where you stand.

[quote]
As a muslim, the fight for knowledge is neverending. So lets use our knowledge and not be afraid to doubt hadith that seem to be wrong.
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Ibrahim says : so the logic is “seem to be wrong” meaning anything you are anyone does not like is, has to be rejected. How silly?

[quote]
And questioning always begins when one has a "khutkaa" that something is amiss. I had a "khutkaa" that the infertility hadith I picked up off the internet was amiss somewhere. If I had not posted it up here, and if you hadn't corrected me, then I would have gone on to think Islam doesn't give rights to infertile women. Thank God I doubted!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: you did no just doubt but tried to argue you were right even though I corrected you that is why I am saying you are stubborn and need to learn more before your utter silly statements based on your own whims and fancies. .

[quote]
You have said what i've been saying all along here yourself. You accuse us of doubting each hadith we come across, yet if you dont treat each new hadith you come across as doubtable, then why would u scurry off to verify its authenticity?
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Ibrahim say : O lord, again you try to deceive yourself, to verify is not to doubt but to check its veracity that it has been posted accurately and NO typos or mistakes have been made in its transfer or edited by the deviants to promote their follies. .

[quote]
And verifying authenticity doesn't mean flipping pages of al-bukhari, but also involves comparing with Quranic verses, checking ag/other hadith to look for conflicting reports, opening up some history books, doing a profile check on the reporter of the hadith to see if maybe they had some other bias, etc.
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Ibrahim says; That is your own works, for Muslims when they want to verify they check the sources and its contents and that should be sufficient when the hadith is certified as a sahih hadith.

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no duh.
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Ibrahim says : see that how little you know!

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THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!
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Ibrahim says: Stop LYING sister! and read what you said

1) there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.

2) Sunnah is essentially the life and actions of the Prophet - his teachings.
Hadith, however , has been reported by man
Nescio said:

1) Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!! there is NO contradiction between Sunnah and the Quran and thus I do NOT doubt the validity of Sunnah, because if I did that I would also doubt the Quran and that's a sin being a muslim.

2) ** And since these reports are human made,** they are invariably (just like all other things done by humans) ** subjected to bias/corruption/mistakes/cultural-time influences/changes! **

3) ** So doubting the validity of Hadith is not being over-critical or sinful, NO! it is very right to do that!** because you shouldn't believe everything u read apart from the Quran (this is just my opinion)

4) All I'm saying is that there are information streams from the Prophet to us.** And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!**

Ibrahim says; ** Now IF you want to TALK answer my earlier refutation concerning your misguided claims **

Was salaam
Ibrahim

16: 92 ** And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun after it has become strong. ** Nor take your oaths to practice deception between yourselves lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; ** and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.**

97

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: Stop LYING sister**
[/quote]

Wonderful! Just about the ideal way you attract people to Islam.

98

[quote]
Originally posted by sambrialian:
Wonderful! Just about the ideal way you attract people to Islam.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Dear sambrialian,

You don't have to lie or deceive in order to attract people to Islam.

Islam will grow immaterial of what I do or what others do

kindly read.

2: 42 And cover not Truth with falsehood nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

2:77 Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?

3: 71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while ye have knowledge?

99

Bro Ibrahim I agree with what you said above. And I also agree with what you and bro Hasnain have been arguing in this thread. I know that Ahadith are not just matter of memorization but are a proper science. And people who are not aware of that should not be making tall claims. (Hint, hint)

Anyways, bro Ibrahim, I have tremendous respect for your religious knowledge. However, you sometimes come off a bit brash for someone who's extending Da'wah. And it is through my personal experiences that I feel that it is a big turn off (at least for me).

100

[quote]
Originally posted by sambrialian:
However, you sometimes come off a bit brash for someone who's extending Da'wah.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Salaams to all

Dear sambrialian,

This is not dawah in the essence of it, what I am doing is more a rehabilitation program. Here the objective is to correct the errors of the person . Due to the medium where it allows even the devils to act as Muslims to misguide them, there is little option but to be direct and BLUNT about it, so long as ONLY the TRUTH is being conveyed.

I may sound harsh, I may use the rod , there is no option but that, when one identifies the problem, this is like rehabilitating drug addicts, there is only one way, it is called cold turkey, it can be harsh, but no other way.

[quote]
And it is through my personal experiences that I feel that it is a big turn off (at least for me).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: fully agree with you and I am aware of it but for some that is the only medicine and prescription , that is why I don’t preach on the net for I am more after the deviants and false propagators and let the other Muslim brothers and sisters like you do the preaching.

It is like a hat that I wear in this medium and that is currently my intention to resolve this increasing actions of the deviants and misguided propagation based on their whims and fancies .

Sorry, it will look and sound harsh to pious Muslims but there is no other way of stopping this disease , which left unattended will blossom into a monster that will ravage the generations to come. .

Hope that helps you understand why I act the way I do.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** the dead sea is dead only because it takes in water and doesn’t give any out.
YOU Keep circulating the good and the good will circulate you **