Dear PyariCgudia

[Mahiwal]

Being knowledgable isn't a one-day job. Spend some time on this religion before you guys make some bold statements. Pick up a copy of Saheeh Bukhari and give some ahadiths a read, then read one of the books by the Imaams of the Ummah which've explained those ahadiths. Its not for us to decide a certain ahadiths is wrong because it contradicts the Quran. Many contradictions are on the surface and appear so because of lack of knowledge.

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says; salaams to all

Dear All,

This thread was started by Brother Hasnain based on the statements of Sister PyariCgudia, which was, ... ** there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.**

Meaning the hadiths and sunnah are not from the same source and she knew how to differentiate the two , for which Brother Hasnain wanted to know how

Her reply to the question was…. ** Sunnah is essentially the life and actions of the Prophet - his teachings. Hadith, however , has been reported by man **

Which I questioned by saying ** who reported the sunnah but man?**

For which Necsio responded …** Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!! hadith is merely the reporting of these Sunnah by human beings. **

And my response was:

[quote]
Dear NeSCio,
which mean your earlier statement was false, since you claimed sunnah was not contradictory but hadiths can be contradictory and should be doubted
Now you cannot have it both way so make up your mind! Or admit you are making silly comments.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: HELLO Nescio and PyariCgudia, DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW THAT BOTH OF YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING SILLY STATEMENTS, based on error.

This thread was ** not about the presence of unauthentic hadiths that Muslims reject,** but about the claim that that the hadiths ( meaning all hadiths) should be doubted/rejected and sunnah should be accepted because they can be found in the Qur’an

Now I suggest, both of you would be human enough and most of ALL, Muslims, to admit to your mistakes before taking this thread into other directions.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

[Ibrahim]

All I’m saying is that there are information streams from the Prophet to us. And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!

Ibrahim says : salaams to all

Nescio! that is not what you said earlier, please read above post as to what you said.

Second How do you know there were a lot of Mistakes have been made??

God send the Quran to the Prophet----->
the Prophet brought the Quran to the ppl------->
and they wrote it down and passed it on! for me this information stream is intact!

Ibrahim says: let me correct you here too, The Qur’an were exchanges revealed from time to time, as the need arise, for durations of 23 years. They were recorded by scribes (on what ever materials available to them) the Prophet had chosen and they were memorized by his followers through those recorded as well as verbal transmissions which are called hadiths.

apart from this there’s another stream: the Prophet’s teachings (the Sunnah), which weren’t contra-dictory to Quran: in other words, the essence of his teachings can also be found in the Quran itself.

Ibrahim says: this is based on your whims and fancies because when the Prophet (pbuh) was alive there was nothing contradictory in anything he said or did and that too was memorized and transmitted in writing as well as memory by the same followers.

Even though those that hated him and Islam would have tried to introduce false teachings, the people were able to correct themselves because they simply visited and questioned the Prophets concerning such matters, which led to more hadiths being transmitted

Your confusion is due to misconceptions and lack of knowledge. The way of life accepted by Allah (swt) need not be revealed in the Qur’an since Allah 9swt) observes what the Prophet does and guide him, all the Qur’an has to record is the approval of Allah (swt) and such approval is found in abundance in the Qur’an.

Kindly read and contemplate.

4:80 ** He who obeys the Apostle obeys Allah:** but if any turn away ** We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).**

Ibrahim says hence the sunnah is and will not be found in its entirety in the Qur’an but are transmitted by way of hadiths.
Hence your notion is false and erroneous.

Prophet’s teachings-------> seen by the companions--------> they remembered and passes on ORALLY--------> passed on ORALLY again------->and again--------->and again---------->and again------------->and again---------->collected by Bukhari.

Ibrahim says: Again another misconception
First, just as the Qur’an, the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) were also meticulously memorized and kept in writing by various companions . others were specialist in this art of collecting hadiths and transmitting them and this was the method Islam was spread far and wide. Failing which Islam would have only been known by those who possessed Qur’an in writing.

Now in case you have doubts, visit

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,721088,00.html, how followers of false teachers to this day records hadiths and follow them word for word

Let me quote from Jesus in Siberia and what their followers do:

** They are unquestioningly dedicated to their guru.** They utter his name in hushed tones. They decorate their homes, temples and workplaces with his image. ** They reverentially swap tales of the Teacher’s every act or word. They pore over his four fat volumes of musings. His aphorisms are learned by rote and regurgitated daily.**

Ibrahim says: so men have yet to change as to how they transmit what they love.

Now I need not explain to you that orally passed on messages are very sensitive to minor changes, and that these changes can be far-reaching! And also that these messages are very easily changed to your liking, hence for example the many hadith which exist discriminating against women.

Ibrahim says: this is based on your conjecture that is based on the conjecture of others, sorry go and study how Islam was spread far and wide when there was very little resources of paper and recording materials 1423 years ago.

After that find out how information revealed 5000 years ago was compiled by the Hindus a mere 2000 years later or how the Bible (OT) was compiled out of memory 1000 years later or when other scriptures were out into writing.

and since I said that the essence of his teachings can also be found in the Quran itself, why rely on very unreliable data, if you can get more accurate and to the point data out of the Quran???

Ibrahim says when you say essence of his teachings is found in the Qur’an, you have negated the sunnah because the essences is not the sunnah, so get help.

The sunnah (the path) is detailed information as to what was done or should be done in varying circumstances the essence of his teachings is NOT found in the Qur’an but the exchanges between the Prophet and Allah (swt) are recorded in the Qur’an, the Qur’an does not lead one to such details, the hadiths does, so either accept the fact the Islam is based on the Qur’an and authentic hadiths or do what you like based on your whims and fancies.

BUT DO NOT MISLEAD OTHER MUSLIMS BASED ON YOUR WHIMS AND FANCIES.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

59: 5 ** Whether ye cut down (o ye Muslims!) the tender palm-trees or ye left them standing on their roots it was by leave of Allah and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgressors. **

[PyariCgudia]

Woah, I'm gone for a couple of hours and I see this thread is up to 3 pages long.

Again, I'm honored. This is the 2ND thread opened on a comment of mine, which has lead to a lenghty discussion. A good one at that too. I'm glad.

I promised all of you some evidence of my opinions. Dont worry, i haven't forgotten. I've been occupied a bit, so this evidence will soon come Insha'Allah.

But just one teeny weeny question for Corrupt Angel. You said that the hadith on music are correct since there is mention of music in the Quran on how it is forbidden. Please, if you can post it up here or in another post, or just PM to me the particular ayah or ayahs. I'd like to know, since no one has been able to quote any evidence from me from the Quran on music. I hope its not too much trouble for ya. Thanks.

[PyariCgudia]

I think some people are getting confused by my statements and nescio's also.

If I'm understanding nescio here, he's pretty much on the same grounds I am. We dont deny that the Rasul gave advice and performed actions that were an expansion and a further explanation of the Quran, God's word.

We also dont deny that this advice and actions were in any way wrong. Many people believe that the Prophet was flawless in his beliefs, thoughts, intentions, and actions. Although I do remember reading about a school of thought in which it is viewed that the Prophet was human and subject to mistakes. Lets not even go there, because it really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. Let us, for argument's sake, assume that the Prophet really was flawless in everyway and thus the Sunnah is also flawless.

The situation can be compared to Jesus's teachings. We believe that Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, correct? He never proclaimed to be non-human, or an incarnation of God in human form. We know this as a fact, BEING MUSLIMS, since this is clearly written in the Quran. Muslims view this as FACT, whereas non-muslims DO NOT. We view it as a FACT, because it is written in the Quran, and Muslims view the Quran as a factual and errorless book.

Now, most Christians dont take our belief as FACT and continue to believe that Christ is the Savior, and God, and the son of God, etc. This , to them, is viewed as FACT. In the Muslim view, we believe that over time, the BIBLE was rewritten and changed, and the bias of men who changed it is evident to us as Muslims. Thus, we attribute the belief of equating Christ to God as a human error, and a very sorry one at that.

My first point is that if Man has gone to the extent of changing the BOOK that was REVEALED by GOD , and the words are of GOD, and since MAN has done this repeatedly for every prophet's revelations, then why do you think that Muslim, er so-called muslims, wouldn't do the same thing? Are muslims born with the determined destination of heaven? Will all people who call themselves muslims today really achieve heaven? Probably NOT. I doubt I will, as most likely many guppies may also doubt.

Another very good point raised here is that God's promise was to protect the Quran. He did not say that he would protect the reports on the Sunnah.

My third point, goes back to my example. The sunnah is analogous to what Jesus actually said - "Dude, I'm not God's son". The Hadith are analagous to what Man did to Jesus's statements and the Bible, thereby turning this hypothetical statement of Jesus into "Dude, I am God's son". The sunnah, just like a random statement made by Jesus, does not exist in material form today. It can't. This requires muslims to do something that many muslims dont like to do. Question and analyze. And I strongly encourage every muslim to do this, and not to rely on Al-Muslim and Al-Bukhari alone. For they were men also, and there is no way that we could know if they were heaven-bound or hell-bound. I know it sounds harsh, but in the end it boils down to the biggest and most unique concept in Islam -- we are each our own priest. NO religion before has given man this capacity. And I say religion, and not faith, because Religion is man-made and Faith is in God's realm. Islam is more about the Faith, than the Religion. Isn't that why we boast as Muslims that Islam is not JUST a Religion, in fact some say that it isn't a Religion at all. Its a WAY OF LIFE. Its the TRUTH. Because its NOT man-made. Its all heavenly. But I am talking about the true teachings, the TRUTH as God alone knows it, and as is put forth in the Quran.

I dont care what anybody here says. Islam never forbid anyone from questioning and analyzing another Muslim's statements, and claims. In fact, Islam promotes education, nay, it DEMANDS educated followers, so that Islam is not misused.

And I dont doubt that one needs to be very educated in analyzing hadith.

I dont think, for the final time I say this, that all Hadith are wrong and erroneous. I do maintain that some are questionable, and these hadith should be treated as questionable and not as the pure Truth, which only the Quran can promise to give us.

In the end, it all boils down to your own definition of the Truth, and your trust in fellow muslims. I believe, as is perfectly sensible to believe, that humans are prone to mistakes and no human is perfect. Also, I realize that people misunderstand another person's words, that some jokes are taken seriously, and that sometimes men become mischeivous and to deliberately place their cultural values above religious ones, they MAKE UP hadith to prove their points.

[PyariCgudia]

The article I was referring to - Please read. The bold statements are my own words.

Are there more women than men in hell?

by Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood

I have often pondered the attitude of many pious Muslims who although they dearly love Allah and His Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) nevertheless seem to have a reverence based on fear…The Almighty our Creator knows full well that we are but human beings, full of faults and sins and disappointments and blind-spots. It is one of the greatest blessings that when it comes to punishing us for our failings, our Lord does not judge as a human being does, but in a way we can never fully understand or appreciate…

As He revealed to us in the Qur’an, if He punished us according to what we deserved, there would be left on earth no living thing. (Surah 35:45)…My Proof for my statement that no human, including the Sahaba, are errorless

Similarly, our beloved Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was the living example for us of all the qualities Allah wished us to encourage and build up in ourselves. He was gentle, and kind, and honourable, and brave, taking the side of the helpless, the children, the destitute, the abused women. He did this even before his call to Prophethood, for it was the main aim of the Order of Chivalry (the Hilf al-Fudul) founded by his uncle Zubayr b. Abd al-Muttalib, and the chief of Taym, Abdallah b. Juda’an.

So, whenever we come across a bald statement in the writings that seems to be out of keeping, and looks as if our beloved Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) couldn’t possibly have said that for it does not ring true with what we know about him, we must look a little deeper to see if there is some aspect of it that we have perhaps missed. Needless to say, the very first rule of judging whether or not a hadith is reliable is to test it against the teaching and spirit of the Qur’an. Any hadith that disagrees with the Qur’an cannot possibly be genuine. Does anyone argue this as false?

The western media is frequently accused of misunderstanding Islam, so let us look briefly at a few stunning headlines that might have appeared shortly before 632 CE. They all give pause for thought.

Prophet dooms young orphan girl to early death.’

Prophet curses favourite wife from his death-bed.’

‘Prophet insists Paradise is denied to old women.’

‘Prophet rages: ‘Hell is two-thirds full of women!’’

None of these headlines would sound at all right to anyone who knows anything about Islam. All the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) words, actions and way of life reveal him as a man of gentleness, kindness, humility, good humour and excellent common sense, who had a great love for all people, especially for his family. Aishah said of him: ‘The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) never abused or spoke ill of anybody. He forgave faults and refrained from retaliation. He never thought of taking personal revenge, forgave non-believers promptly on their conversion to Islam; never fought on personal grounds; took an interest in his household affairs; condemned vendettas and blood feuds; and never beat anyone, not even a slave’. When Aishah was asked what the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was like at home, she said: ‘He does what you all do in your houses – he also patches his clothes and repairs his shoes, and feeds his goats.’ He used to ‘serve his family’, and help them in their household chores until the time came for prayer, and then he would go out. She said: ‘He was more bashful than a maiden in seclusion, but when he disliked something, we could see it immediately in his face.’

He never used to speak badly of people, following the principle that if you couldn’t say something good, then say nothing at all. He disliked whispering and sniggering. He once said: ‘If you are three people, two of you should not speak in a confidential manner in the presence of the third until you mix with other people, because that brings sadness to the heart of the third person, who feels left out, and alienates him.’ Those who spoke with him knew that they would be treated with courtesy, forbearance, modesty and trust. He disliked raised voices, and never shouted or uttered obscene words, or indulged in fault-finding. He simply ignored what he did not like, and did not make a fuss about it. Moreover, he was very kind, and never gossiped or made known the shortcomings of anyone, or exposed their defects to others. He did not attempt to find out people’s secrets, and when told them, he never declared them to others. The one thing he did hate was lying. Aishah recorded: ‘No habit was more disgusting to him than telling a lie. If he found out about anyone lying, he kept away from that person until they were genuinely sorry for it.’ Yet if he disapproved of something, he never told the person directly or abruptly, but simply let his wishes be known tactfully…

Examples of many other hadiths making a point of mentioning the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) laughter are Bukhari 3.157;Bukhari 6.466; Bukhari 8.299; Bukhari 9.510; and Muslim 82; …

One day when they were digging the Ditch before the Battle of al-Ahzab the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) fell asleep from sheer exhaustion, and Abu Bakr and Umar stood guard over him keeping the labourers away so that he could sleep in peace. Zayd b. Thabit, who was just sixteen and preparing for his first experience of battle, also fell asleep. Umarah b. Hazm played a practical joke on him, stealing his clothes and tools, and hiding them. Thus Zayd earned the nickname Abu Ruqad (the ‘Sleepy One’ or ‘Father of Dreams’).

One of the keenest diggers was the ‘little beetle’, Amr b. Suraqah (Ju’ayl). One of his companions gave rhythm to his digging with the song: Song, huh? So where has all the music gone?

His name he changed, Ju’ayl to Amr,
gave the poor man that day his help.’

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) joined in by only shouting the words at the end of each line loudly, making people laugh.
Surely it would be improper for a prophet of God to have a sense of humour? Far from it -– it only seems improper to those who have not read about the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) with understanding. In fact, he was not a dour pronouncer of doom except when such pronouncements were necessary -– he was a man who was attractive and alive with humour, forever drawing people to the faith, not driving them away. He once said: ‘The dearest of you to me are those who have good manners; the most offensive to me are the most boring and the long-winded!’ If this is true, the Prophet would probably dislike me, for my posts are sooo long. Hehe. That was a joke, so smile

Umar b. Khattab recorded that during the lifetime of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) there was a man called Abdullah whose nickname was Donkey, who regularly used to make the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) laugh. One day the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had him flogged because of drinking alcohol. A little later he was brought back again on the same charge and was lashed again. At that, one of the men said, ‘O Allah, curse him! How frequently he has been brought (to the Prophet on such a charge)!’ The Prophet said: ‘Do not curse him, for by Allah, I know for he loves Allah and His Apostle.’ (Bukhari 8.771). …

However, sometimes his remarks were given with dry humour, which has been misinterpreted by those who have taken such statements literally. For example, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) took a dim view of Muslims who could not manage to offer a few prayers during the night—referring to them as ‘those in whose ears the Devil has urinated!’ He did not mean this literally.

Once he made an old lady cry by teasing her that there would be no old women in Paradise. She was devastated until he explained that what he meant was that Allah would make all old people young again.

Once Umm Ayman asked him if she could have a camel. He commented that he would only mount her on the offspring of a she-camel. Umm Ayman was hardly satisfied – and pointed out that it would not be able to bear her weight. ‘Mother,’ the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) insisted, ‘I will only mount you on the offspring of a she-camel’ At last she realised he was joking with her, for all camels were offspring of she-camels! …

At the Battle of Khaybar the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) forces were assisted by Umm Sulaym who came with an orphan girl she had raised in her household as her own daughter. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) saw her and teased her: ‘How can that be you? You seem to have grown younger! May you never advance in years.’ The poor girl totally misunderstood him, and Umm Sulaym found her in tears. She explained that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had cursed her so that she would never live to old age. Umm Sulaym rushed straightway to confront him with this outrage. He smiled and said: ‘Umm Sulaym, don’t worry. I have made a bargain with my Lord - I am only human, and am pleased or in bad temper like any other person; but I asked Allah that if I ever cursed a person who did not deserve it, then Allah would on the contrary let that be a source of purity and nearness to Him for that person, on the Day of Resurrection’. (Muslim 6297).

After the Farewell Pilgrimage at the Eid prayer, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) walked past the men leaning on Bilal’s arm, and came to the rows of women behind them. Bilal spread out a cloth and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) urged the women to be generous with their gifts of charity, for when he had been allowed a glimpse into the flames of Hell, he had noted that most of the people being tormented there were women. The women were outraged, and one of them instantly stood up boldly and demanded to know why that was so. ‘Because,’ he replied, ‘you women grumble so much, and show ingratitude to your husbands! Even if the poor fellows spent all their lives doing good things for you, you have only to be upset at the least thing and you will say, 'I have never received any good from you!’ (Bukhari 1.28, recorded by Ibn Abbas – who was present on that occasion as a child)important. At that the women began vigorously to pull off their rings and ear-rings, and throw them into Bilal’s cloth. That author is implying that this hadith shouldn’t be taken literally, sinc the Prophet could very well have been kidding, and the narrarator misunderstood since he was a child at the time.

Even on his deathbed the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) made characteristic remarks. He had requested Abu Bakr to lead the prayers in his place, but he heard Umar’s voice and demanded an explanation. Aishah admitted she had sent Umar, explaining that her father was too distressed and overcome with emotion, his voice shook, and he wept when he recited the Qur’an. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) insisted it was to be Abu Bakr, and called Aishah ‘one of the women of Joseph’ (that is, one of those who were tempted to seduce the Prophet Yusuf/Joseph (Allah bless him and give him peace). He also used the expression ‘may your hand be cut off.’ He had only said those words fondly, but when he noticed later that Aishah kept looking at her hands he asked her what was the matter. She told him she was wondering which hand she would lose!

Thus it is that reading and pondering deeply on the hadiths pays enormous rewards to those who love the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). Phrases that had at first seemed like teachings hostile to women when taken out of context suddenly bring us close to our Messenger, and we feel instead his love and humour and humanity. My point exactly

In conclusion, perhaps we should note that it was not only the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) humour that was sometimes misunderstood, but even straightforward statements.

For example, it was the normal practice of the female Companions to pray in the mosque, with no sutrah dividing them from their men.And at my mosque they have the nerve to put up a curtain to isolate the women They prayed behind them, but with no dividing walls or curtains – which one could argue might have invalidated their prayer ‘in congregation’. Yet nowadays, in some places we find devout brothers in Islam depriving women of their rightful place in the mosque by quoting the hadith that it is better for women to pray at home. Where did this originate? In fact, it came from an occasion when an elderly and arthritic Muslim lady—Umm Humayd—expressed her regret to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that although she longed to pray behind him in the mosque, as so many others did, she was not able to be there. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) told her not to be concerned about this, it was better for her to pray in her own home (Abu Dawud 570). Many male Muslims have misguidedly used this hadith to try to prevent their women from going to mosques, and have turned them into ‘male clubs’ where any women who do go feel obtrusive, shy and ‘pushy’, when it is obvious from so many other hadiths that it was the normal practice in Madinah for them to go. For example, Caliph Umar’s grandson tried to prevent his wife, but was over-ruled by his father since the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had encouraged them saying: ‘Do not prevent the handmaids of Allah from attending the mosque.’ Muslim 888, Abu Dawud 568.

Sometimes the supposed anti-female hadith seems completely untrue. One such hadith was the one that no nation that allowed itself to be ruled by a woman would prosper. This may have been an example of one of the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) wry comments, but it is suspect for it was only quoted for the first time by Abu Bakra just before the Battle of Siffin, some thirty years after the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) death. The reason was that the troops opposing Caliph Ali were in fact being led by a woman, none other than the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) beloved wife Aishah!

The hadith seems in direct opposition to the words of the Qur’an to the ruling Queen of Sheba in the time of the Prophet Sulayman (Solomon), who ruled over the most wealthy and well-known people in the history of Arabia. She was asked to accept Islam, but not to give up her rule (Surah 27:23-44). This hadith has been argued by MANY people to be true. I hope this gives people some insight into the matter

Indeed, some feel that Abu Bakra’s testimony should be held in doubt anyway, since he had previously been flogged for a fraudulent statement, and the shari’ah ruling was that after such an offence the person’s word should never again be upheld as reliable in a court of law. However, Abu Bakra was a noble Companion who had converted to Islam from Taif, and who related several hadiths. His ‘offence’ concerned the case of Mugheera b. Shu’ba, a man known for his weakness for women. He would marry women and would divorce them after some time to make room for more beautiful faces. In this way, he married no less than 80 wives, taking steps to ensure that at a time his wives were not more than four, the limit prescribed by the Shariah.

In those days at Basra, there was a beautiful woman Umm Jamil. She belonged to the same tribe as that of Mugheera. Her husband had died and she became notorious for loose morals. Mugheera was attracted by her and she visited him often.

Some Muslims in Basra became critical of the conduct of Mugheera. Among them was Abu Bakra Thaqeefi whose house across the street faced the house of Mugheera.

One day a strong wind blew and the windows of the houses of Abu Bakra and Mugheera got opened through the force of the wind. He saw through the window that in this house Mugheera was locked in an uncompromising state with a woman. He thought that the woman was Umm Jamil. He had some friends with him, and they also saw Mugheera involved with a woman.

Abu Bakra wrote to Caliph Umar accusing Mugheera of adultery. The report was endorsed by four witnesses who had seen Mugheera in an uncompromising state with a woman. Umar took prompt action. Umar appointed Abu Musa as the Governor of Basra and removed Mugheera from the office. Mugheera was summoned to Madinah to face trial. Abu Bakra and the other witnesses who had made the complaint were also summoned to Madinah.

At the trial, Mugheera pleaded not guilty. His defence was that the woman in question was his wife and not Umm Jamil. With great indignation he averred that Abu Bakra and the men with him had no right to interfere in his privacy. Abu Bakra on the other hand maintained that the woman was Umm Jamil. Three other witnesses corroborated the statement of Abu Bakra. The fourth witness Ziyad stated that he had seen the event, but he had not seen the face of the woman and did not know who she was. The other witnesses were cross examined, and it was found that there were some weak points in their evidence. They were asked whether the woman had her back or her face toward them. They said that she had their back to them. They tried to make out that even from her back she could be identified as Umm Jamil. They argued that the scandal of Mugheera and Umm Jamil was very common in Basra, and that lady was none else but Umm Jamil.

Under the Quranic law in order to press the charge of adultery definite evidence of four witnesses was necessary. As in this case the fourth witness was not sure of the identification of the woman, Mugheera was given the benefit of doubt and acquitted. Abu Bakra and his companions who had levelled the charge were punished with lashes for making a charge which could not be established. Such was the care that was taken with evidence for adultery in those days! However, one feels that Abu Bakra did not deserve his flogging.

In spite of his acquittal, Mugheera was not restored to the office of the Governor, and was detained in Madinah. He made some show of indignation at having been treated shabbily in a case which was false. Umar called him to his presence and issued the warning: “O Mugheera offer thanks to God that full evidence was not forthcoming against you, and you have been saved from disgrace by a technical flaw. Grounds of suspicion against you were very much there, and I have given you the benefit of doubt. Remember that if the evidence was complete, you would have been stoned to death.” (From the lives of the Caliphs, Alim CD).

About 99% of pple reading this are probably asleep by now. I’m so sorry!

Postscript

I would like to examine more closely the saying about Hell being two-thirds full of women. The hadith in fact came in several different versions, based on two quite separate occasions - the first being the collection of alms after the Eid prayer, as I have presented it in my article, and the second being the day of the tragic death of the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) son Ibrahim, when an eclipse occurred. Added phrases mention the women’s practice of Islam as being inferior to that of the men.

Taking the ‘eclipse’ sayings first:

Abdullah bin Abbas (who was also the source of the hadith given in Bukhari 1:28, where the occasion was the Eid prayer) narrated: The sun eclipsed in the lifetime of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). Allah’s Apostle offered the eclipse prayer and stood for a long period equal to the time in which one could recite Surat-al-Baqara. Then he bowed for a long time and then stood up for a long period which was shorter than that of the first standing, then bowed again for a long time but for a shorter period than the first; then he prostrated twice and then stood up for a long period which was shorter than that of the first standing; then he bowed for a long time which was shorter than the previous one, and then he raised his head and stood up for a long period which was shorter than the first standing, then he bowed for a long time which was shorter than the first bowing, and then prostrated (twice) and finished the prayer. By then, the sun (eclipse) had cleared. The Prophet then said, “The sun and the moon are two of the signs of Allah. They eclipse neither because of the death of somebody nor because of his life (i.e. birth). So when you see them, remember Allah.” The people say, “O Allah’s Apostle! We saw you taking something from your place and then we saw you retreating.” The Prophet replied, “I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! Why is it so?” The Prophet replied, “Because of their ungratefulness.” It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, ‘I have never had any good from you.’ " (Buk 2.161).

Buk 7.125 gives the first part the same as the above, and continues: “I saw Paradise (or Paradise was shown to me), and I stretched my hand to pluck a bunch (of grapes), and had I plucked it, you would have eaten of it as long as this world exists. Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for that?” He replied, “Because of their ungratefulness.” It was said. “Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?” He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favours done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.’ "

Now let us consider the Eid sayings:

Abu Said al-Khudri narrated: Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” (Bukhari 1.301).

According to Bukhari 2.541 Abu Said al-Khudri narrated: On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah’s Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, “O people! Give alms.” Then he went towards the women and said. “O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women).” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?” He replied, “O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray.” Then he left. And when he reached his house, Zainab, the wife of Ibn Mas’ud, came and asked permission to enter it was said, “O Allah’s Apostle! It is Zainab.” He asked, “Which Zainab?” The reply was that she was the wife of Ibn Mas’ud. He said, “Yes, allow her to enter.” Here we see the Prophet conversing with a woman who is unchaperoned. Thus, I maintain that healthy association between men and women is allowed And she was admitted. Then she said, “O Prophet of Allah! Today you ordered people to give alms and I had an ornament and intended to give it as alms, but Ibn Mas’ud said that he and his children deserved it more than anybody else.” The Prophet replied, “Ibn Mas’ud had spoken the truth. Your husband and your children had more right to it than anybody else.”

In Muslim 31 Abdullah ibn Umar narrated: The Messenger of Allah observed: O women, you should give charity and ask for much forgiveness for I saw you in majority amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our gender is in majority in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Tahir with this chain of transmitters. See also Muslim 448.

However, we must make very clear that women not offering prayer during their menses in the month of Ramadan is NOT a failing in their religion at all – it was a concession allowed by Allah in His revelation. Women were simply required to make up the missed days at some other time before the next Ramadan month.

‘Therefore, anyone of you who witnesses that month should fast therein, and whoever is ill or upon a journey shall fast a similar number of days later on. Allah intends your well-being and does not want to put you to hardship. He wants you to complete the prescribed period so that you should glorify His Greatness and render thanks to Him for giving you guidance.’ 2:185: Having fun?

Imam Malik did not regard travelling as being a good enough reason. ‘No one who, by the Book of Allah, has to fast may break his fast except for a reason - illness or menstruation. He must not travel and break his fast." Malik said, “This is the best that I have heard about the matter.” Al-Muwatta 18:40.

Fiqh as-Sunnah 1.71a: If women fast (while menstruating during Ramadan), their fasting will be considered null and void. If they fast during the month of Ramadan, they will still have to make those days of fasting up later on. Mu’adhah said, “I asked 'Aishah, ‘Why must we make up the fasts missed due to our menstruation, and not the prayers (missed through menstruation)?’ She said, 'That was what the Messenger of Allah told us to do. We were ordered to make up the fasts, and we were ordered not to make up the prayers.”

As regards the witness of two women being required instead of one, the shari’ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject. In matters where their witness would be just as valid as a man’s, the witness of one women is sufficient.

Narrated Abu Hurairah: While we were sitting with the Prophet a man came and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I have been ruined.” Allah’s Apostle asked what was the matter with him. He replied “I had sexual intercourse with my wife while I was fasting.” Allah’s Apostle asked him, “Can you afford to manumit a slave?” He replied in the negative. Allah’s Apostle asked him, “Can you fast for two successive months?” He replied in the negative. The Prophet asked him, “Can you afford to feed sixty poor persons?” He replied in the negative. The Prophet kept silent and while we were in that state, a big basket full of dates was brought to the Prophet . He asked, “Where is the questioner?” He replied, “I (am here).” The Prophet said (to him), “Take this (basket of dates) and give it in charity.” The man said, “Should I give it to a person poorer than I? By Allah; there is no family between its (i.e. Medina’s) two mountains who are poorer than I.” The Prophet smiled till his premolar teeth became visible and then said, "Feed your family with it."Bukhari 3.157.

Narrated Abdullah: A Jew came to the Prophet and said, "O Muhammad! Allah will hold the heavens on a Finger, and the mountains on a Finger, and the trees on a Finger, and all the creation on a Finger, and then He will say, ‘I am the King.’ " On that Allah’s Apostle smiled till his premolar teeth became visible, and then recited: “No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to him…” (39.67) 'Abdullah added: Allah’s Apostle smiled (at the Jew’s statement) expressing his wonder and belief in what was said. Bukhari 9.510.

Narrated AbuDharr: Allah’s Apostle (peace be upon him) said: I know the last of the inhabitants of Paradise to enter it and the last of the inhabitants of Hell to come out of it. He is a man who would be brought on the Day of Resurrection and it will be said: Present his minor sins to him, and withhold from him his serious sins. Then the minor sins would be placed before him, and it would be said: On such and such a day you did so and so and on such and such a day you did so and so. He would say: Yes. It will not be possible for him to deny, while he would be afraid lest serious sins should be presented before him. It would be said to him: In place of every evil deed you will have good deed He will say: My Lord! I have done things I do not see here. I indeed saw the Messenger of Allah laugh till his front teeth were exposed. Muslim 82.

Then he advised them not to laugh when somebody breaks wind and said, “Why should anybody laugh at what he himself does?” Bukhari 6.466.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Whenever Allah’s Apostle went to Quba, he used to visit Um Haram bint Milhan who would offer him meals; and she was the wife of 'Ubada bin As-samit. One day he went to her house and she offered him a meal, and after that he slept, and then woke up smiling. She (Um Haram) said, “I asked him, ‘What makes you laugh, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, ‘Some people of my followers were displayed before me as warriors fighting for Allah’s Cause and sailing over this sea, kings on thrones,’ or said, ‘like kings on thrones.’ (The narrator, Ishaq is in doubt about it). I (Um Haram) said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Invoke Allah that He may make me one of them.’ He invoked (Allah) for her and then lay his head and slept again and then woke up smiling. I asked, ‘What makes you laugh, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, ‘Some people of my followers were displayed before me as warriors fighting for Allah’s Cause and sailing over this sea, kings on the thrones,’ or said, ‘like kings on the thrones.’ I (Um Haram) said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Invoke Allah that He may make me one of them.’ He said, ‘You will be amongst the first ones.’ " It is said that Um Haram sailed over the sea at the time of Muawiya, and on coming out of the sea, she fell down from her riding animal and died.” Bukhari 8.299.

(Many passages in this article were taken from her book on the Life of the Prophet, due out later this year insha’Allah, and where no reference is given to the sahih hadith collections, they were derived from Ibn Hisham or Ibn Sa’d).

I hope you guys aren’t asleep by now. Let the debate begin

[Mahiwal]

[quote]
**
For example, it was the normal practice of the female Companions to pray in the mosque, with no sutrah dividing them from their men.
**
[/quote]

Source please?
Also, Question: How does this article relate to our current discussion? What research have you done to deny the authenticity of ahadith? What reason do you have to believe that the Quran is intact?

[This message has been edited by Mahiwal (edited July 05, 2002).]

[Mir_of_Hunza]

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited July 06, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

PyariCgudia: I dont care what anybody here says.

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Sister PyariCgudia, that sums up your desire and the truth behind your posts and what I have shown above established this fact that YOU, Yes you, will say what you like immaterial of the folly in it.

Now first if you truly intent to discuss, admit that you were in error or establish your point that ** there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.**

I notice you move from one branch to another in many threads, which first led me to keep Clear from responding to you but once you started spreading folly, I have no choice but to respond.

Let me show you what I mean:-

1. In one thread you asked for help concerning locating a particular hadith after getting the answer YOU decided Music was OK on your own http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005459.html

2. In another thread you claimed a hadith said infertile women should not be married after finding out that you are in error, you change it to adoption and after getting answers, you spin that into what you think the ayah says http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005473.html

3. in another thread you asked abut Musk and then concluded on your own after arguing that the Prophet (pbuh) used perfume so it was OK for you to use it too > I kept away because of what i noticed in your posts.

4. now in this thread the question was why you said ** there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.** For which, NO satisfactory answer had been given instead you now post articles which changes the whole issue.

I am wondering how long you plan to do this, if honestly your intent is, to discuss a issue and accept the TRUTH about that issue or to spin it into another and continue the thread without accepting anything. ?

Hope you can enlighten us as to what will be your intent ** IF you dont care what anybody here says**

Was salaam
Ibrahim

16: 92 ** And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun after it has become strong. ** Nor take your oaths to practice deception between yourselves lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; ** and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.**

[CorruptAngel]

Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
But just one teeny weeny question for Corrupt Angel. You said that the hadith on music are correct since there is mention of music in the Quran on how it is forbidden. Please, if you can post it up here or in another post, or just PM to me the particular ayah or ayahs. I’d like to know, since no one has been able to quote any evidence from me from the Quran on music. I hope its not too much trouble for ya. Thanks.

I’m in a hurry- will be back tomorrow. Meanwhile, check out these two articles/sites–>
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~azma/VerdictonMusic.htm

http://muttaqun.com/music.html

Apha1,

I never asked you anything regarding women’s rights but thank you very much for being so informative. I know what my rights are and so far I have no question about it.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

[This message has been edited by CurruptAngel (edited July 05, 2002).]

[Hasnain]

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:

Again, I'm honored. This is the 2ND thread opened on a comment of mine, which has lead to a lenghty discussion. A good one at that too. I'm glad.
[/quote]

What good is a long rail track when you're sailing the waters?

If a pot of gold was given for every thread opened because of somepne's previous comment, we would be swimming in wealth.

But if a drop of rain was taken for every question left unanswered, we would be in a dust bowl of drought.

[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:

It's actually the first time i've heard this, especially as the sunnan themselves are found and exctracted from ahadeeth.

I was just curious as to how you
differentiate the two?
[/quote]

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:

Ibrahim says : My question was who reported them ( hadiths that reveals the sunnah) but men?
[/quote]

And I cannot help but to feel that Alpha1 is correct in saying:

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:

The whole issue surrounds fatwa shopping to me. You ask the same question over and over again to different mullahs/maulvis/kazis until you get an answer that suits your own desires.
[/quote]

... simply because of the comment:

[quote]
originally posted by PyariCgudia:

I dont care what anybody here says.
[/quote]

---

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

[enchanted]

can’t help thinking : so true

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

… we all accept only what we want to…there ain’t many exceptions.

[PyariCgudia]

Ibrahim, thanks so much for your reply.

You've really baffled me. I have questioned questionable hadith, pointed out contradictions in hadith that were , please remember, reported by men. If a Palestinian decides to blow himself up in an Israeli restaurant, killing innocent children too, would you then also like me to remain mum and not question it?

I question things where I have a reason to, and when someone tells me not to, then I dont care too much for that person and what he/she says.

And the most wonderful thing is that up until this point, everyone is throwing dirt on me instead of discussing and explaining what seems to me to be contradictions within the hadith, and the main argument against mys statements are that this is all sunnah and we must follow it.

That is why I have come out and made an argument, a logical one which no one is able to point out the lack of logic therein, in which I'd like your responses. I want you to point out the faults in my arguments, but to debunk my comments because they dont agree with yours is pure folly.

If one can, please comment on the article that I have posted up. I dont think I need to prove anything, because the article does a good job of posing my thoughts just as they are. The contradictions are pointed out clearly and scientifically in the article, and if your knowledge allows you to see that some false statements were made in the article, then do point them out.

Ibrahim, when I posted the hadith on infertile women, it was obviously a human who had changed the term "doesn't have children " to "infertile". This is a perfect example of where I got the wrong idea from a hadith because of its wording, which obviously someone fiddled with. I am very grateful to you for putting up the right hadith. I questioned you further on adoption, not because I was trying to twist anything, but because I was just curious on what Islam's stand on adoption is, given the particular hadith laid out in front of us. I really, honestly, whether you believe it or not, did not mean to disfigure Islam or offend your intelligence and belief in Islam. I was just curious as to the stand in Islam on adoption. It was kind of one of those "by the way" questions. Obviously, you misunderstood my motive. I hope that's cleared up some confusion.

Please, anyone come forward that wishes to comment on the article...if there's something wrong with it, do point it out please. I'd be grateful, and so would many other muslims. And if you can't find anything wrong with it, dont be offended, but take it as a lesson. I posted this article up becuase in particular, these are the hadith which I doubted the validity of when I first heard them , just because they didn't sound like they could come from our dear Prophet's mouth. He was very nice when it came to women-folk and it didnt' occur to me that he would underestimate the mind and faith of a woman. That is why I posted this article up. This is one issue that is very dear to my heart, so please take the time to read and comment. Thanks.

[PyariCgudia]

Corrupt Angel: Thanks for posting up the links. I read thru them.

I wont get into details since this thread isn’t about music. But thanks for the links.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[PyariCgudia]

If a pot of gold was given for every thread opened because of somepne's previous comment, we would be swimming in wealth.

Dear Hasnain, my comment was meant to be a joke, and a sarcastic joke at that too. Please dont take my jokes as serious comments. I think that ties in to the article I've posted above.

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Hello PyariCgudia ! This thread was started specifically to find out why you said such and such (I have repeated the question more than once already) and ** IF you claimed the hadiths were transmitted erroneously you are also saying the Qur’an is transmitted erroneously without realizing what you are saying due to lack of knowledge. **

Instead of giving answers for the question asked to you, you have made up your mind to teach others about what Muslims have established and understood for a 1400 years before you were even born.

Now kindly go here and learn before you try to teach how Muslims accept or reject hadiths, http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html
Also understand that hadiths can be classified as sahih (sound), hasan (good), da’if (weak) and maudu’ (fabricated, forged)

** This thread is not about questionable hadiths but about your erroneous claims. SO STICK TO THE TOPIC! **

If a Palestinian decides to blow himself up in an Israeli restaurant, killing innocent children too, would you then also like me to remain mum and not question it? I question things where I have a reason to, and when someone tells me not to, then I dont care too much for that person and what he/she says.

Ibrahim says: when some one tells you, you should find out more instead of making foolish comments don’t you think you should find out why they said that? Instead you evade the question and try to spin it out of proportion! Finally, you turn around and said “I don’t care what others say” , how than can there be a discussion with you?

And the most wonderful thing is that up until this point, everyone is throwing dirt on me instead of discussing and explaining what seems to me to be contradictions within the hadith, and the main argument against mys statements are that this is all sunnah and we must follow it.

Ibrahim says: Don’t be silly! Forums works according to topics, here the topic was not about fabricated hadiths or weak hadiths it was about your statement, where you claimed hadiths are made up by men and sunnah is different .

That is why I have come out and made an argument, a logical one which no one is able to point out the lack of logic therein, in which I’d like your responses. I want you to point out the faults in my arguments, but to debunk my comments because they dont agree with yours is pure folly.

Ibrahim says: The thread was about your silly comment, not about any argument you are tying to make in order to avoid answering the question at this moment. Now I repeat, if you want argument, start your thread with such an argument but don’t try to infuse a different argument, where it does not belong in the thread that was started to identify how you came to make a comment which is based on folly and would mislead many Muslims by the answer you gave .

If one can, please comment on the article that I have posted up.

Ibrahim says: one can comment as they chose after you have learned your lesson, not before, because learning is a step by step process, you need to pass grade one before can go to grade 2. That is the established and logical methods of progress.

Here you don’t understand what hadiths are and you say they are not sunnah because they are man made, that is false. And you agree with Nescio, who claimed hadiths should be doubted. that is also wrong when you dont specify what hadiths should be doubted

Now how does one jump to classifications of hadiths or explain about hadiths prior to correcting your silly comments?

Thus answer the questions and acknowledge your mistake before talking about fabricated or weak hadiths or hadiths that you do not have the capacity to comprehend.

I dont think I need to prove anything, because the article does a good job of posing my thoughts just as they are. The contradictions are pointed out clearly and scientifically in the article, and if your knowledge allows you to see that some false statements were made in the article, then do point them out.

Ibrahim says : what use that will be when your foundation is false and in error? Only the ignorant build on weak or false foundations the wise build on solid ground, so all this while, I am pointing to the fact that your foundation is false, and you keep running away and talking about specific hadiths, not knowing how they are classified in Islam or understood by Muslims.

Ibrahim, when I posted the hadith on infertile women, it was obviously a human who had changed the term "doesn’t have children " to “infertile”.

Ibrahim says; Hello, don’t you know that when we use English concerning matters revealed in Arabic, translators can translate according to their knowledge, thus making it look as though they have been changed? The truth being, you did not know its origin and neither did you know what it meant, immaterial of how it was worded.

Don’t you know even the Qur’an has many translations where the words will differ? Whose fault is that IF you did not verify the originals or did not have the capacity to understand what is being referred to?

This is a perfect example of where I got the wrong idea from a hadith because of its wording, which obviously someone fiddled with.

Ibrahim says NO, no one fiddled with the words! that was due to your lack of knowledge since even without looking at the original , I knew by the Grace of Allah (swt), that you had misconceived it. I explained it to you but you chose to argue with me . hence I had to spend time looking for the originals to ensure you are corrected or else you will insist that you are right to think the way you did.

Please, anyone come forward that wishes to comment on the article…if there’s something wrong with it, do point it out please. I’d be grateful, and so would many other muslims.

Ibrahim says: when you have stated you don’t care what others say, how do you expect others to respond to you?

** Most of all, why the stubbornness in not addressing the questions put to you? **

Was salaam
Ibrahim

16: 92 ** And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun after it has become strong. ** Nor take your oaths to practice deception between yourselves lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; ** and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.**

[Hasnain]

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
Please, anyone come forward that wishes to comment on the article...
[/quote]

It seems everso ironic that you use an article to support your claim that hadeeth are not to be followed, while the whole article itself uses ahadeeth as supporting evidence, thus contradicts your claim that:

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
... there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.
[/quote]

Masha'Allaah, it is full with ahadeeth throughtout:

[quote]
Aishah said of him: ‘The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) never abused or spoke ill of anybody. He forgave faults and refrained from retaliation. He never thought of taking personal revenge, forgave non-believers promptly on their conversion to Islam; never fought on personal grounds; took an interest in his household affairs; condemned vendettas and blood feuds; and never beat anyone, not even a slave’. When Aishah was asked what the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was like at home, she said: ‘He does what you all do in your houses – he also patches his clothes and repairs his shoes, and feeds his goats.’ He used to ‘serve his family’, and help them in their household chores until the time came for prayer, and then he would go out. She said: ‘He was more bashful than a maiden in seclusion, but when he disliked something, we could see it immediately in his face.’

...He never used to speak badly of people, following the principle that if you couldn’t say something good, then say nothing at all. He disliked whispering and sniggering. He once said: ‘If you are three people, two of you should not speak in a confidential manner in the presence of the third until you mix with other people, because that brings sadness to the heart of the third person, who feels left out, and alienates him.’ Those who spoke with him knew that they would be treated with courtesy, forbearance, modesty and trust. He disliked raised voices, and never shouted or uttered obscene words, or indulged in fault-finding. He simply ignored what he did not like, and did not make a fuss about it. Moreover, he was very kind, and never gossiped or made known the shortcomings of anyone, or exposed their defects to others. He did not attempt to find out people’s secrets, and when told them, he never declared them to others. The one thing he did hate was lying. Aishah recorded: ‘No habit was more disgusting to him than telling a lie. If he found out about anyone lying, he kept away from that person until they were genuinely sorry for it.’ Yet if he disapproved of something, he never told the person directly or abruptly, but simply let his wishes be known tactfully...

...Examples of many other hadiths making a point of mentioning the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) laughter are Bukhari 3.157;Bukhari 6.466; Bukhari 8.299; Bukhari 9.510; and Muslim 82; ...

...Umar b. Khattab recorded that during the lifetime of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) there was a man called Abdullah whose nickname was Donkey, who regularly used to make the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) laugh. One day the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) had him flogged because of drinking alcohol. A little later he was brought back again on the same charge and was lashed again. At that, one of the men said, ‘O Allah, curse him! How frequently he has been brought (to the Prophet on such a charge)!’ The Prophet said: ‘Do not curse him, for by Allah, I know for he loves Allah and His Apostle.’ (Bukhari 8.771). ...

...Narrated Anas bin Malik: Whenever Allah's Apostle went to Quba, he used to visit Um Haram bint Milhan who would offer him meals; and she was the wife of 'Ubada bin As-samit. One day he went to her house and she offered him a meal, and after that he slept, and then woke up smiling. She (Um Haram) said, "I asked him, 'What makes you laugh, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, 'Some people of my followers were displayed before me as warriors fighting for Allah's Cause and sailing over this sea, kings on thrones,' or said, 'like kings on thrones.' (The narrator, Ishaq is in doubt about it). I (Um Haram) said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah that He may make me one of them.' He invoked (Allah) for her and then lay his head and slept again and then woke up smiling. I asked, 'What makes you laugh, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, 'Some people of my followers were displayed before me as warriors fighting for Allah's Cause and sailing over this sea, kings on the thrones,' or said, 'like kings on the thrones.' I (Um Haram) said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah that He may make me one of them.' He said, 'You will be amongst the first ones.' " It is said that Um Haram sailed over the sea at the time of Muawiya, and on coming out of the sea, she fell down from her riding animal and died." Bukhari 8.299.

[/quote]

... and there are many more mentioned in the article.

It is not often that someone submits an article which itself dispoves the person and acts as evidence against him/her.

The truth shall always prevail over falsehood. In truth, reality and actual fact, there is no difference between ahadeeth and sunnan, because the sunnan themselves are derived from ahadeeth.

For sure, there is a difference between fabricated ahadeeth and weak ahadeeth (which may be questioned due to their inauthenticity) in comparison to strong ahadeeth. However, because of the existence of fabricated ahadeeth, we should be careful not to deny or reject all ahadeeth (namely the authentic and strong ones), as this in turn automatically would lead us to denying and rejecting the Sunnah - e'aaothobillaahi min thaalik.

Dear PyariCgudia, please do not take my observations or comments as personal, as they apply to many people who follow the same principles as you did above, as a result of a lack of knowledge and understanding.

We are all on a path to learning and lack knowledge, and we all have shortcomings and err, but the best of us are those who sincerely strive to acquire the truth - for the sake of Allaah - and accept it once it arrives, without allowing personal desires or iclinations to reject it - this is the true beleiver. (We all claim to be Muslims, but what does it mean to be a true Muslim and believer?)

This advice is first and foremost to myself, and then to you, and then to those who may come across it.

May Allaah - subhaana wa ta'aala - increase us all in knowledge and understanding of His beutiful Deen. And may He - the Most Merciful - make us sincere in all our actions, be they of the heart, the tongue or the limbs.

regards&peace

---

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

[PyariCgudia]

I think I see where the problem is. And again , the problem is that people have either misunderstood my words or they have twisted them for their own benefit.

Ibrahim and Husnain, I think you're trying to imply that i've rejected hadith as a source of info on the Sunnah of the Prophet. I have said that the Hadith are used to find out about the Sunnah, and I never said that no hadith should be followed.

Here's some of what I've said, that I've cut and paste again for your convenience.

Again I wish to say that I do not say that you SHOULD NOT GO UPON THE ADVICE IN HADITH.

Thus, since I honestly believe that man is far from perfect, I also believe that you must be very cautious when dealing with hadith.

Historians have compiled a life history of the prophet, of which much of it is known to be fact, since there is no contradicting reports on the matter. For example, under Sunnah would fall the Rasul's marriage to Khadija. No one argues this fact, because there is no report that states that he did not marry Khadija. This is an oversimplified example, of course, but this would be known as fact.

However, many hadith are debated still to this day (ironically most are about women), and it surprises me that some people support certain hadith when its so obvious (at least to me) that they're anti-woman.

If I'm understanding nescio here, he's pretty much on the same grounds I am. We dont deny that the Rasul gave advice and performed actions that were an expansion and a further explanation of the Quran, God's word. We also dont deny that this advice and actions were in any way wrong.

The sunnah, just like a random statement made by Jesus, does not exist in material form today. It can't. This requires muslims to do something that many muslims dont like to do. Question and analyze.

I dont care what anybody here says. Islam never forbid anyone from questioning and analyzing another Muslim's statements, and claims. In fact, Islam promotes education, nay, it DEMANDS educated followers, so that Islam is not misused.

Here i'll interject and say that you have done to my statement what men have done to ayahs on Polygamy in the Quran. You've taken a meaning out of one sentence without considering the impact of the following sentences. I did not mean that I dont care what anyone says period. I meant to say that many people here have claimed that I shouldn't question and that thinking doesn't matter. It does matter. If you were upset at me THINKING about the validity of a quranic verse being a muslim, then I wouldn't blame you for getting irritated.

But I haven't questioned Quranic verses. I have questioned some hadith, SOME AND NOT ALL, on the basis that they were reported by man and not God. And when I do question a hadith like some examples i've set forth, I get blasted for it. That is why I even bothered to answer this post, because I really feel people take meanings out of my posts that aren't existant.

I dont think, for the final time I say this, that all Hadith are wrong and erroneous. I do maintain that some are questionable, and these hadith should be treated as questionable and not as the pure Truth, which only the Quran can promise to give us.

This sums up what I've said. If anyone can find where I've contradicted myself by saying that one should not go upon Hadith at all, then please shoot me in the head. I really dont mind.

Regarding the hadith on Infertile women - to Ibrahim specifically:

You're the one picking an argument out of NOTHING. Here's what happened if you can't figure it out by now. I came across this hadith when I clicked on a link to a website posted in the corner room, to which I provided you that link. I found this hadith, and not knowing what the story was behind it, I posted it up on this website to get some info on it. I dont have a collection of hadith nearby to verify if it was true or not, and whether the words were any different in the translation.

You, (thanks) provided me an original to which you had access to. In the one I posted , it said INFERTILE. Please look up the word infertile. Infertility is something biological and you have no control over it. This is why the hadith concerned me. The version you put up says "Does not have children". I could get into even more implications regarding this translation. But I'm trusting your statements on it, since you seem convinced in your statements. Infertility and "DOES NOT HAVE CHILDREN" are two VERY different meanings. Do understand that. And yes, someone DID fiddle with the words, whether deliberately or accidently. How can you translate "not willing to have a child" into "infertility"? Does that make any sense to you? And YES OF COURSE I UNDERSTAND THAT MISTAKES HAPPEN IN TRANSLATIONS AND DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS MAY USE DIFFERENT WORDS, BUT THOSE WORDS TEND TO BE SYNONYMS, NOT WORDS WITH DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

being infertile and not wanting to have a child are two very different things. I picked up a hadith from a website that had, for whatever reason, a hadith up that was wrong in its using INFERTILITY. Even the author , before writing that hadith, says that the Prophet encouraged marriage to young and FERTILE women. Obviously, given your statements Ibrahim, he was wrong or mistaken. Whether this was ignorance , or a deliberate move to malign Islam, I dont know.

I should have checked the hadith elsewhere, but when posting it up here, it was my motive to have it checked thru the guppies. And you've done that Ibrahim, so that was the end of the conversation in that post regarding fertility and infertility.

And yet you're still implying that I posted it up to twist yarns and mislead people. I tell you, even now and until the day I die, that wasn't my motive at all. I wanted to get the hadith checked and you did that for me, for which I'm obliged. End of story. Lets not make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
I think I see where the problem is. And again , the problem is that people have either misunderstood my words or they have twisted them for their own benefit.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Dear PyariCgudia,

I think you are STILL blind and cannot see what the problem is

** The problem started when you said **

1) there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.

2) Sunnah is essentially the life and actions of the Prophet - his teachings.
Hadith, ** however** , has been reported by man

Ibrahim says : My question to you was and still is ** “who reported the sunnah but man?”**

Instead of explaining and rectifying this problem you have talked about other things except this!

And in addition make more erroneous remarks below.

[quote]
Ibrahim and Husnain, I think you're trying to imply that i've rejected hadith as a source of info on the Sunnah of the Prophet. I have said that the Hadith are used to find out about the Sunnah, and I never said that no hadith should be followed.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hello, read above what you said . After which read what you agreed to by siding with nescio.

[quote]
Nescio said:

1) Sunnah is what the prophet did and what he said!!!** there is NO contradiction between Sunnah and the Quran ** and thus I do NOT doubt the validity of Sunnah, because if I did that I would also doubt the Quran and that's a sin being a muslim.
2) And since these reports are human made, they are invariably (just like all other things done by humans) subjected to bias/corruption/mistakes/cultural-time influences/changes!

3) So doubting the validity of Hadith is not being over-critical or sinful, NO! it is very right to do that! because you shouldn't believe everything u read apart from the Quran (this is just my opinion)

4) All I'm saying is that there are information streams from the Prophet to us. And somewhere along the line a LOT of mistakes have been made!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ** Sister did you not agree with all this too???**

So you see in one breadth you say hadiths are doubtful ( which means all hadiths) in another you say sunnah is not doubtful and in another a lot of mistakes have been madeis believed by you.

What mistakes? Who made mistakes? Please tell us AFTER you have answered the FIRST question that has not been answered from the beginning .

[quote]
Thus, since I honestly believe that man is far from perfect, I also believe that you must be very cautious when dealing with hadith
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: meaning according to YOUR whims and fancies or according to established sciences, which had been practiced for 1423 years?

[quote]
Historians have compiled a life history of the prophet, of which much of it is known to be fact, since there is no contradicting reports on the matter.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: where do you think, they derived this history from, if not from hadiths reported by man?

[quote]
However, many hadith are debated still to this day (ironically most are about women), and it surprises me that some people support certain hadith when its so obvious (at least to me) that they're anti-woman.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: which means women do not like what is written in some hadiths or men had slanted it against them?

[quote]
If I'm understanding nescio here, he's pretty much on the same grounds I am. We dont deny that the Rasul gave advice and performed actions that were an expansion and a further explanation of the Quran, God's word. We also dont deny that this advice and actions were in any way wrong.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: kindly read what else nescio had to say which you agreed to ( detailed above)

[quote]
The sunnah, just like a random statement made by Jesus, does not exist in material form today.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : what silliness is this! , the path taken by the Prophets is witnessed by people and passed form one to another word for word ( still practiced to this day) and recorded in various books as time passes. What they did or said , which was not recorded as the revelation was memorized by the respective followers, which led to the spread of Islam immaterial of the Prophet. They did not have video cameras or tape recorders but human being at earlier time frames had a lot better memory system than we have today.

In addition they existed specialists whose memory was good as computers., whom Allah (swt) had guided to become transmitters of hadiths.

[quote]
It can't.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: that is your opinion due to your limited knowledge but Allah (swt) can make all thing possible including ensuring his message is embedded into the memory system of human beings.

[quote]
This requires muslims to do something that many muslims dont like to do. Question and analyze.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: another silly remark! Islam is studied not parroted or followed blindly, much of the Qur’an and hadiths need contemplation, in order to be understood. This means each Muslim has to ponder and wonder at the same time such contemplation cannot lead one to make silly statements like above!

[quote]
I dont care what anybody here says. Islam never forbid anyone from questioning and analyzing another Muslim's statements, and claims. In fact, Islam promotes education, nay, it DEMANDS educated followers, so that Islam is not misused.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says When you don’t care what anyone says, there is no room in you for accepting what you chose not to accept. Thus you will cut off all queries, ( just as you have repeatedly done in this thread) and carry on talking about what you think is correct for you, based on your whims and fancies and not on Facts.

[quote]
Here i'll interject and say that you have done to my statement what men have done to ayahs on Polygamy in the Quran. You've taken a meaning out of one sentence without considering the impact of the following sentences.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : No ! that is not the case, because you still insist that you are right even though you cannot answer the question raised from the beginning. Which CLEARLY proves that you do not wish to consider what others have to say but carry on promoting your folly.

[quote]
I did not mean that I dont care what anyone says period. I meant to say that many people here have claimed that I shouldn't question and that thinking doesn't matter. It does matter.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hello ** who said this?? When in this thread did anyone tell you not to question and it does not matter??**

[quote]
I have questioned some hadith, SOME AND NOT ALL, on the basis that they were reported by man and not God.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: excuse me, this thread had nothing to do with specific hadiths . This thread was about your BLANKET statements which literally made all hadiths look as if there were written by man , meaning man made them up and should be questioned .

** YOU DID NOT SAY IT WAS SPECIFIC TO SUCH AND SUCH HADITH! **

[quote]
And when I do question a hadith like some examples i've set forth, I get blasted for it. That is why I even bothered to answer this post, because I really feel people take meanings out of my posts that aren't existant.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Now you are spinning sister, so stop spinning. This thread was not about any specific hadith ** but about your claim that sunnah is different and it is not the same as hadith because hadith is reported by man**

[quote]
I dont think, for the final time I say this, that all Hadith are wrong and erroneous. I do maintain that some are questionable, and these hadith should be treated as questionable and not as the pure Truth, which only the Quran can promise to give us.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : which is what I addressed when I said, that such matters was already done by Muslims 1400 years before you were even born! Meaning Muslims are not blind to follow anything and everything, they have worked out ways and means to establish which hadith is “Sahih” and which is not. YOU MAY BE BLIND OF THIS, BUT knowledgeable Muslims have no problem in such matters. I already provided you with a link where you can get more info on this.

[quote]
This sums up what I've said. If anyone can find where I've contradicted myself by saying that one should not go upon Hadith at all, then please shoot me in the head. I really dont mind.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Good! I am shooting you in your head , literally of course J , hope you can re direct yourself before it is too late. The main problem here is that because you have been spinning without addressing the main question where you implied “hadiths are reported by man and sunnah is not” , you have technically misled others, which you alone will have to answer for.

Snipped the other issue which has nothing to do with this thread.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

16: 92 ** And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun after it has become strong. ** Nor take your oaths to practice deception between yourselves lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; ** and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree.**

[PyariCgudia]

Ibrahim, you are making my blood boil. If you dont agree, then dont agree! I'm not asking you to agree. I explained it very well I believe, using the Jesus example. Sunnah is reality, and the hadith is a report upon reality. Therefore , i have addressed the question and gone into depth to explain myself to you. I'm not going to reiterate, you ought to read my posts again if you still dont understand my position on this topic.

The excerpt that you posted above of Nescio's - yes, i agree with it 100 percent.

Essentially you believe, it seems, that every reporter of a hadith was not biased, and not wrong. If that is true, then why have so many hadith been thrown out, because they were invalid? I have simply stated that there May be many more that have not been doubted yet, because we muslims are heavily influenced by our male-dominated society thought process. This explains why many hadith which I find doubtable are about women. No one has ever questioned them, and those that do aren't given much attention, because these hadith agree with the male-dominated principles that society has had since the time of the early caliphs.

Even in the time of the prophet, many women would complain to the prophet that their husbands wouldn't treat them properly or they felt they were being left behind in a male-dominated society, even though Islam conflicted with those ideas. Thus, this thought process was never really eradicated.

If you believe otherwise, from your knowledge in history, then that is WHAT YOU BELIEVE, AND I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT, since history does point otherwise.

I dont need to even go into details in showing you how male-dominated all arab societies and Pakistani society are, despite being so-called "Islamic" societies.

You still accuse me of putting all hadith in a doubtable light. I do not say that all hadith are doubtable. However, this is not the SAME thing as saying that the Hadith are the same as Sunnah.

The question was are the two the same, and no they aren't. One is a report of something that is a reality. They are however, RELATED, and that too VERY CLOSELY, and one is DEPENDENT upon the other. So, yes, the relationship is there (which i did not deny), but the two are not the same. Its like saying is an APPLE and EATING an APPLE the same thing? No, one is a noun, the other refers to an action. But they are certainly related. And you can't eat the apple without the existence of the apple.

I refuse to discuss the issue anymore with you, unless if you have anything productive to say. I have answered the question that you think I haven't. If you dont agree, then that is your problem to deal with. I dont want any more muu maari from you just on account that you dont agree with me. I'm entitled to what I have to say, and whether you agree or not, I know that I'm right, and even though many people aren't speaking up, I know I'm not alone on this matter. I also find it very immature of you to continue posting a quranic ayah in which you are basically tellling me that I'm violating God's law by spinning tales like an old woman.

Its not very muslim of you, and although I'm not going to ask you to stop, I will say that if you want to make me cry, you'll need to try harder.