Dear PyariCgudia

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**What if you get a Hadith that explicity orders you to shave the hair off the head of a newborn a week after the birth.

The Qur'an makes no statement about this.

My question is that this Hadith has been prooved to be authentic. Do you follow this? Or do you ignore it because the Qur'an makes no mention of it?

So far Nesico, you have said that only those [authentic] Hadiths that appear to say something that the Qur'an also says something on are acceptable. Also, if they both say the same thing then we why not follow the Qur'an alone? In doing so, you have have cancelled out the Hadith and the Sunnah altogether.**
[/quote]

The point is if you have any doubts about the authenticity of a hadith check with quranic teachings and see how they parallel against each other.

Now about shaving a baby's head is a sunnah and not a farz .... doing or not doing that will not affect your muslim faith or your pillars of religion. This is just a matter of your maturity when you align such matters with mattters of basic faith.

Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

42

[quote]
Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
**Alpha 1 ... quran serves as guidance and develops your concepts and hadiths relay the examples .... its that simple.

However hadiths that contradicts quranic teachings or do not make sense do exist. Hadiths are meant to also provide guidance not follow literally.

You sound so pathetic .... now tell me if our Prophet (PBUH) according to some hadith prayed a certain prayer in so and so time, will you do the same or rather get the essence that such a prayer exists and we could or should pray it.

**
[/quote]

Thats the third time you have made this discussion personal. If your decency decends any further I will not bother to even read your replies - learn some basic manners.

If our Nabi did something, does that mean we should do that? NO is the answer. An example would be that the Nabi had more than four wives, something that we cannot follow. If our Nabi did something and then ordered his ummah to follow, what then?

43

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
** If you read the thread again, this post has nothing to do with Music per se. The discussion is about the acceptance of authenticated hadith in its own right. If it is sinful to participate and reply to people in a discussion then that ust be some wierd logic you have.**
[/quote]

Alpha 1, answer this please ... why do you read hadiths .... what is the reason behind following them, what do you look for in them?

Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

44

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**
Thats the third time you have made this discussion personal. If your decency decends any further I will not bother to even read your replies - learn some basic manners.

If our Nabi did something, does that mean we should do that? NO is the answer. An example would be that the Nabi had more than four wives, something that we cannot follow. If our Nabi did something and then ordered his ummah to follow, what then?**
[/quote]

OK I apologize for getting a lil' personal but argue with some reason not shove your opinion in someones face.

Our Nabi would only order the Ummah to follow something within the tenants of Islam, so no question in not following it unless you have doubts that he would not do so.

Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

45

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**

The problem is where you get people like Necisco who say (read above) that we should follow the Qur'an alone. Then you are lost.**
[/quote]

Nescio, please don't DISAPPOINT ME!! We all agree that Quran is all FACTS. However, you can't judge Quran by your own! You are NOT that WISE you see. You need someone to guide you. All hadiths are not reliable but THAT does not in any way means that you will completely rely on Quran. Quran doesn't really give much details about every topic. Hadith explains Quran so we need BOTH!

46

[quote]
Originally posted by CurruptAngel:
**
Nescio, please don't DISAPPOINT ME!! We all agree that Quran is all FACTS. However, you can't judge Quran by your own! You are NOT that WISE you see. You need someone to guide you. All hadiths are not reliable but THAT does not in any way means that you will completely rely on Quran. Quran doesn't really give much details about every topic. Hadith explains Quran so we need BOTH!

**
[/quote]

Angel, I didnt see NesCio totally reject following hadiths anywhere in this thread.

Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

47

[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** (i'm not rejecting or anything or giving opinion, just want to get information)
my question to you: why would we shave of the hair??? what would be the purpose of shaving it? what is the essence of shaving the hair off????
If we shave off the hair solely for the sake of shaving the hair off, then it seems to be a pointless issue.........so what is the purpose of shaving it off??? cleaness? purity?

(again: asking purely for my information)**
[/quote]

Okay, maybe that question was too difficult to comprehend, what about this one:

If an authenticated narration said that the Messenger (saw) told you explicitly perfom action A, but there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, then do you accept and perform that action, yes or no?

Lookscankill, I am not shoving anything down anyones throat, what I am saying is that if you dont follow or obey something then please feel free, dont deride the Sunnah of our Nabi though in the process.

48

I agree with you

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

disappointing to see that alpha1 misinterprets what I’m trying to say, whereas you and LooksCanKill seem to understand what i’m trying to say

(note there’s a difference between understanding and agreeing with)

but one thing I would like to address: most ppl say that they cannot understand the Quran etc. They say these things even before they even tried to understand the Quran by themselves. They already assume that they cannot understand the Quran even before they even read it! That’s not right I think: you should at least try to understand the Quran (of course with some help with respect to language, background, grammar, history, setting, etc), but you shouldn’t invariably accept that you cannot understand it.

So my point is: why would Allah send down a book which cannot be understood by 99,9999% of the ppl??? Wouldn’t it be more logical to think that most ppl or at least a greater proportion would be able to understand the Quran if they tried???

(I by no means am saying that I (fully) understand the Quran)

49

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
** If an authenticated narration said that the Messenger (saw) told you explicitly perfom action A, but there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, then do you accept and perform that action, yes or no?

**
[/quote]

I would like to know: why did he say this, in other words, what was the setting, what was the purpose? what was the context? in other words: what is the essence of what he is saying????? is it decency? humbleness? purity? cleaness? patience?
(note that all these essences can also be found in the Quran)

50

LooksCanKill,

If he didn’t say it then I’m really sorry for making false statements about him…hush, my blood pressure…

Alpha1,

Let me tell you one thing, Mohammed(SAW) never added anything to Quran or do you think he did? Then if shaving head was not mentioned in the Quran then do you think Mohammed(SAW) would recommend it to Muslims?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Where did THAT come from? Who said it? Some scholar? Why would you trust every hadith please explain!

[This message has been edited by CurruptAngel (edited July 05, 2002).]

51

Okay then, why dont you clarify your position right now and answer these questions then:

  1. Are you saying that only those hadiths that say what is in the Qur’an can be accepteed?

  2. That if those hadiths simply mirror the Qur’an then we can simply follow the Qur’an?

If yes, then you have cancelled out the Sunnah totally.

Remember, I can use the quote feature on this forum and bring your comments here right now that have said this.

52

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
** Okay, maybe that question was too difficult to comprehend, what about this one:

If an authenticated narration said that the Messenger (saw) told you explicitly perfom action A, but there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, then do you accept and perform that action, yes or no?

Lookscankill, I am not shoving anything down anyones throat, what I am saying is that if you dont follow or obey something then please feel free, dont deride the Sunnah of our Nabi though in the process.**
[/quote]

Well lets do a rewind to the original theme of this thread ... I think it was about some hadiths totally going against womens rights whereas quran lays heavy stress of respecting women. When you arrive at hadiths specific to circumstantial issues thats when authenticity kind of sparks off. I have nothing against hadiths and infact read them all the time looking for example situations to get some guidance out of it but there are certain things narrated in ahadith that just dont sound right .... thats the whole topic of discussion here, its not about distrusting ahadith all over ... NO ... its about shady ahadith which just dont make sense when they relay an example whose likes are totally against the basic teachings of quran.

Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

53

It’s allright!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

My purpose in this discussion is not to prove anyone wrong or right, because I think it is a personal choice what you follow and what you don’t follow…All I want is information, other people’s points of view, their arguments etc. because if I have more information I will be able to make a better personal opinion/judgement about these matters!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

54

[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** but one thing I would like to address: most ppl say that they cannot understand the Quran etc. They say these things even before they even tried to understand the Quran by themselves. They already assume that they cannot understand the Quran even before they even read it! That's not right I think: you should at least try to understand the Quran (of course with some help with respect to language, background, grammar, history, setting, etc), but you shouldn't invariably accept that you cannot understand it.

So my point is: why would Allah send down a book which cannot be understood by 99,9999% of the ppl???? Wouldn't it be more logical to think that most ppl or at least a greater proportion would be able to understand the Quran if they tried???

(I by no means am saying that I (fully) understand the Quran)**
[/quote]

I'm sorry for misunderstanding you before. See, that's why I said we need both Quran and Hadiths. If we never read the translations of Quran then HOW can we differentiate an authentic hadith from an inauthentic one?!

[This message has been edited by CurruptAngel (edited July 05, 2002).]

55
56

The purpose of ahadith is to demonstrate an Islamic concept or quranic teaching in real life .... which falls under many many situations and circumstances.

Its our job to make out the underlying moral or message from the circumstance or example being narrated in the hadith, if in any way you think its in conflict with quran then just back out no need to follow it.

People can interpret it anyway they want, and that is why we have 4 schools of thought and so many other muslim factions but it wont matter when we're infront of allah, we wont be judged on basis of being a wahabi, shia, sunni, ahmadi, hanabali, hanafi, shaafi or maliki. It'll be baed on Islamic (Laws of Good) principles, and what kind of credentials do we carry against it.

We each have sense good enough of making judgement of right from wrong .... even if we dont exemplify or follow it somewhere deep down you always know the truth about your actions. Its never hidden from you.

Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

57

Alpha1, please answer my question first then ask others to answer your questions. Please, thanks! :slight_smile:

[This message has been edited by CurruptAngel (edited July 05, 2002).]

58

[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** let me put this the other way around: those Hadith which contradict the Quran can invariably NOT be accepted! I already said that in this thread. And I think you agree with me on this
**
[/quote]

I am not talking about contradiction, on contradiction we are both agreed, such a Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an can only ever be a fabrication. I am talking about something that the Qur'an does not mention. An example for you is thus: Qur'an says perform salat, does not mention anything about any of the elements of Salat that the Sunnah does. Does that mean that we should reject them> The Sunnah will never contradict the Qur'an, only supplements it.

Anyway in summary then:

You are saying

Qur'an = Sunnah

and

Sunnah = Qur'an

And since the Qur'an is the Kitab-Allah, then the conclusion can only be one - and you yourself said this:

[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
** exactly! furthermore: if there is no contra-diction between the Hadith and Quranic teachings, in order words if there isn't any difference between the essence of a certain Hadith and the Quranic teaching---> what is the use of that certain Hadith then??? you might as well just base ur action on the Quran alone!! no need for that particular Hadith then, because it only tells u the message the Quran already told you!**
[/quote]

The Qur'an is the divine commandment from Allah. The Sunnah is an explanation of the Qur'an and will therefore go into the details. Clenliness is mentioned in the Qur'an, and then this is expounded upon in the Sunnah (cleaning, removing newborn's hair, etc). Similarly, the Qur'an does not tell us what to say in our Salat, the Sunnah does. Using your arguments, we might as well make some arbitary limb-movements and say that our salat is done! (The PA thread on Salat was the most obsure piece of comical non-sense I have ever read on this forum.)

Just look at it this way, if you were in the company of the Nabi (saw), and he told you to do something, would you say "erm...does the Qur'an....." or rather, would you obey Allah and His Apostle?

CorruptAngel - this should suffice to answer your question. (If you wish to discuss womens' rights open a new thread, that is not the topic of this thread, read it again).

I dont need to say anything more. Have a nice weekend.

[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 05, 2002).]

59

good.. so now Allah needs men to write an explanation of His divine word

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

hmm do you think the Almighty is short on words?? is He not articulate enough?? or does He miss details?? or does He give incomplete orders??? … sheeesh the audacity of people who concoct rulings and then impose them as from Allah.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

and why is that?? I never saw you participate in it.. what part of it was concocted and out of the Qur’an?? If the Qur’an doesn’t restrict you on limb movements why do you HAVE to impose them or invent limb movements?? If it tells you to say or recite something, why do you want to add more to it?? what compels you to reject a ruling in the Qur’an and go searching elsewhere for fluffy explanations to add to it ?? why isn’t Qur’an enough for you??

60

The rejectors of ahadiths will surely always have excuses. Always there to believe in the weak theories offered by the rejectors.

1.) What proof do you have that the Quran we have right now is the original Quran? If it is so easy to change ahadiths, then maybe it would've been just as easy to have an incomplete copy of the Quran(Naozobillah).

2.) The weakness of this concept lies in the fact that they reject all ahadiths. A billion muslims around the globe pray in the manner prescribed through Ahadiths, can all those ahadiths be wrong that we have to follow the way PakistaniAbroad has found for us? My question is, can all ahadiths be wrong? Even if its history, can all of this history be wrong?

I suggest that some of you who have been making bold statements about ahadiths dare a look in your collar about how much knowledge you guys own. Do you know what Ilm-ur-Rijaal is? Do you know the effort done to protect Ahadiths? Sort Ahadiths? Nooooo, ofcourse not, but talking about logic is fun isn't it so?

Give the book, "Authority of Sunnah", a read. Get some information about why people believe in ahadiths instead of just assuming that all of us are blind followers of ahadith. Pray, pray, pray. And then maybe we can move along in this discussion.