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Originally posted by CurruptAngel:
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Quran hasn't been rewritten but hadiths have been written over and over again. They were passed on to scholars from thousands of years ago. Thus, we can't compare hadiths with the Quran. We can't really trust each and EVERY hadith, can we?
**
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No we cannot trust each and every hadith. But who decides on this, and what do we use to base our judgement upon? Ask yourself that question and be honest in your reply.
Qur'an is the uncreated speech of Allah. The Sunnah is the actions and saying of the Nabi. These two things have been left to mankind and there is no mistaking in that.
So Hadith's can be accepted as history? This again stems down to Fatwa-shopping. Hadith is ok so long as it just informs, it is not ok, and is corrupted and false when it tells you to do something you do not like.
**
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again, u are changing my words! where did I say, that I only follow those Hadith which I like and reject those which I don't like???
I said that Hadith which are contra-dicting to Quran are false! and the Hadith which are not contra-dictory to Quran----> why use these if you can find the essence in the Quran itself????
And of Quran you're sure that it hasn't been changed, whereas of the Hadith (even when they don't contra-dict the Quran directly) they might have been changed.
And again I would like to post pyaariCguria's post, because I think it's very good:
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Historians have compiled a life history of the prophet, of which much of it is known to be fact, since there is no contradicting reports on the matter. For example, under Sunnah would fall the Rasul's marriage to Khadija. No one argues this fact, because there is no report that states that he did not marry Khadija. This is an oversimplified example, of course, but this would be known as fact
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[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
** No we cannot trust each and every hadith. But who decides on this, and what do we use to base our judgement upon? Ask yourself that question and be honest in your reply.
Qur'an is the uncreated speech of Allah. The Sunnah is the actions and saying of the Nabi. These two things have been left to mankind and there is no mistaking in that.
**
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First of all, let me tell you I do respect hadiths, however, I do NOT give it as much respect as I give to the Quran. Quran is all FACTS. Secondly, every author is different, trust me on this one! And if every author is different then we have all kinds of hadiths. Different scholars write different kinds of words based on what they heard or read. Can you trust every scholar? Now, please be honest in your response!
I would like to add: how can you be sure that a scholar isn’t culturally influenced, influenced by his time, setting etc…in other words how can you be sure a scholar isn’t biased??? whereas I’m sure that the Quran isn’t biased at all.
Yusuf Ali's Translation Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.
Pickthal's Translation Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
Shakir's Translation Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.
A hadith that has all the hallmarks of being authentic is one that can be trusted and will enable you to indeed obey the Messenger. My reply to you is that a hadith that has been classed as authentic (not a randonmly done process but one which is a science) can by relied upon. You will find that such Hadiths are the ones that tell you that there was indeed an man in history called Muhammed, and he came with a Kalam.
Necisco, if you discount all of the Hadith and say that the Quran is its essence, then you have rejected Hadith. But when you accept some Hadith and say it is ok such as the quote from PCG you are nit-picking and only going by what appeals to you.
I think NesCio is correct in what he is trying to say.
His baseline is to compare the essence or moral of the hadith under consideration with quranic teachings, if there is no substnatial contradiction then it can be considered authentic otherwise not. A quranic teaching always supercedes hadith.
As for those asking about witnessing all these events, here's a simple no brainer for those people. How do they know that there father is really there father? They believe it cause there Mamas told them so, I bet they didnt witness it. So it all boils down to blind faith in the end.
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Originally posted by Alpha1:
**Corrupt, how then do you "respect" the following?
Surah (Aal-E-Imran)
Ayah Number 32
Yusuf Ali's Translation Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.
Pickthal's Translation Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
Shakir's Translation Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.
**
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what is meant by this Ayah??? this means that you should obey Allah and his messenger. Obeying the Messenger means that I obey/emulate him in his morals, in his humbleness and decency. Not emulate him in how he used to eat, which food he liked, when he slept etc.
If I say to you: obey your father, that means you should obey/emulate him in his morals/decency etc. That doesn't mean that u should also drink tea at 7 o'clock because your father likes it!
My point in this post is that Hadith put too much emphasis on "how to do something" and not "what to do". They put too much emphasis on appearance whereas the emphasis should be on the essence of what ur doing.
It's the essence which counts and not the appearance; the essence can be found in the Quran.
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited July 05, 2002).]
That’s what I said that we can’t trust each and every hadith means we have to see who is the author and THAT means ALL hadiths are NOT facts. You can have a doubt about hadith(say whether it’s authentic or not) but you cannot have a doubt about Quran because…do I need to explain more?!
Hadiths are always helpful, and yeah only the ones that are authentic!
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Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
**I think NesCio is correct in what he is trying to say.
His baseline is to compare the essence or moral of the hadith under consideration with quranic teachings, if there is no substnatial contradiction then it can be considered authentic otherwise not. A quranic teaching always supercedes hadith.
**
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exactly! furthermore: if there is no contra-diction between the Hadith and Quranic teachings, in order words if there isn't any difference between the essence of a certain Hadith and the Quranic teaching---> what is the use of that certain Hadith then??? you might as well just base ur action on the Quran alone!! no need for that particular Hadith then, because it only tells u the message the Quran already told you!
So now we accept an authentic Hadith only to extract an essence from it?
This essence you term is merely ones own opinion. When the Nabi tells you to not to listen to music (the PCG post first referred to), this command can be disregarded as you morals and ethics tell you to simply ignore this?
When PCG heard that it was the Hadith that prohibbited usic, she said all was ok and proceeded listening to it, just because it was the Hadith that said so. Without even looking towards the authenticity.
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Originally posted by NeSCio:
** what is the use of that certain Hadith then??? you might as well just base ur action on the Quran alone!! no need for that particular Hadith then, because it only tells u the message the Quran already told you!**
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That is your creed and not mine, and that is what you will be held accountable for.
I’m not saying that u should burn all the Hadith or something like that!
If a Hadith has the same essence in it as a Quranic teaching, then it’s fine with me! I wouldn’t reject that Hadith; in the contrary, I would accept it, and think by myself: the person who wrote this has done a good job of history-writing
The Qur’an cannot be questioned. A narration can, and must always be questioned. The Qur’an tells you to pray, the Sunnah tells you how. The Qur’an tells you to fast, the Sunnah tells you how, Hajj, Zakat, Jihad, the list goes on…
On that we are agreed
The problem is where you get people like Necisco who say (read above) that we should follow the Qur’an alone. Then you are lost.
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Originally posted by Alpha1:
**So now we accept an authentic Hadith only to extract an essence from it?
This essence you term is merely ones own opinion. When the Nabi tells you to not to listen to music (the PCG post first referred to), this command can be disregarded as you morals and ethics tell you to simply ignore this?
When PCG heard that it was the Hadith that prohibbited usic, she said all was ok and proceeded listening to it, just because it was the Hadith that said so. Without even looking towards the authenticity.
**
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Do you have a point here, listening to music that is malicious or vulgar is surely haram but I dont see it being haram if it is good for you in moral sense or promotes religous affinity.
Alpha1 .... I feel you dont have substance to talk about except trying to split hairs in everyones post .... and quran does speak about people like you who like to split hairs as sinful people.
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**So now we accept an authentic Hadith only to extract an essence from it?
This essence you term is merely ones own opinion. When the Nabi tells you to not to listen to music (the PCG post first referred to), this command can be disregarded as you morals and ethics tell you to simply ignore this?
When PCG heard that it was the Hadith that prohibbited music, she said all was ok and proceeded listening to it, just because it was the Hadith that said so. Without even looking towards the authenticity.
**
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I never said I don't believe in hadiths but anyways...
If the hadith follows Quran then I believe it otherwise no way! I believe Mohammed(SAW)'s every word(and only Mohammed's-keep that in mind Mohammed(SAW) is not same as all these scholars) and I think he was the perfect man. But I can't trust all hadiths. I don't know about PyariCGudia but I know Quran does talk about listening to music and prohibits it and that means that hadith was authentic. That's how I judge every hadith!
What if you get a Hadith that explicity orders you to shave the hair off the head of a newborn a week after the birth.
The Qur'an makes no statement about this.
My question is that this Hadith has been prooved to be authentic. Do you follow this? Or do you ignore it because the Qur'an makes no mention of it?
So far Nesico, you have said that only those [authentic] Hadiths that appear to say something that the Qur'an also says something on are acceptable. Also, if they both say the same thing then we why not follow the Qur'an alone? In doing so, you have have cancelled out the Hadith and the Sunnah altogether.
concernig the issue of how to perform Salat (which according to you can only be found in Hadith) this was a thread by Pakistani Abroad about performing Salat according to Quran.
Alpha 1 ... quran serves as guidance and develops your concepts and hadiths relay the examples .... its that simple.
However hadiths that contradicts quranic teachings or do not make sense do exist. Hadiths are meant to also provide guidance not follow literally.
You sound so pathetic .... now tell me if our Prophet (PBUH) according to some hadith prayed a certain prayer in so and so time, will you do the same or rather get the essence that such a prayer exists and we could or should pray it.
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Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
** Do you have a point here, listening to music that is malicious or vulgar is surely haram but I dont see it being haram if it is good for you in moral sense or promotes religous affinity.
Alpha1 .... I feel you dont have substance to talk about except trying to split hairs in everyones post .... and quran does speak about people like you who like to split hairs as sinful people.
**
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If you read the thread again, this post has nothing to do with Music per se. The discussion is about the acceptance of authenticated hadith in its own right. If it is sinful to participate and reply to people in a discussion then that ust be some wierd logic you have.
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Originally posted by Alpha1:
**What if you get a Hadith that explicity orders you to shave the hair off the head of a newborn a week after the birth.
The Qur'an makes no statement about this.
**
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(i'm not rejecting or anything or giving opinion, just want to get information)
my question to you: why would we shave of the hair??? what would be the purpose of shaving it? what is the essence of shaving the hair off????
If we shave off the hair solely for the sake of shaving the hair off, then it seems to be a pointless issue.........so what is the purpose of shaving it off??? cleaness? purity?
