Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!


not sure but I don't see a disagreement...

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Ignorance makes you quote Evolution in the same category as other "scientific" disciplines.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Actually, ignorance comes into play when people categorically deny evolution as a science. Many, many people who are much smarter than anyone on this board and who have studied this for years refer to evolution as a science. Creationism and intelligent design on the other hand have no basis in science whatsoever.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Peace Seminole

"Smart people" is just as much a criterion for being self-deluded as much as ignorance. Why? Well of course because they have "faith" in their OWN ideas. Yes, there are people who refer to Evolution as a science, I'm not one of them. But I gotta hand it to ya, pulling off that fast one, that in some sense Creationism and Intelligent Design toters offer their views as a science.

I think not! Creation 'theory', Intelligent Design and low and behold Evolution, all three, fall in to the same category, which is belief. Never does a Creationist call the process of Creation a science. Some beliefs are supported by scientific findings, but that is not to say that the interpretation of those findings is absolute and indicative in support of a specific belief.

The fossil record is evidence but it is not an explanation. The explanation for the same evidence can be made to suit both the belief system of Evolution as it can for the belief system of Creation. Depends on the belief system of the one who does the explaining.

The ignorance comes in because science is looked at as a subject rather than a function that fulfils a set number of patterns.

Science is: Hypothesis, Test, Re-evaluate, Refine model, Eliminate error, Conclude

The most fundamental thing to prove evolution is to put it to test, to see it happening. The day we see animals change form and nature, that is when they mutate, they don't just live for one generation, but can continue procreating and at the same time can also no longer procreate with from what they evolved.

E.g. Donkey becomes cow. Donkey x gives offspring to donkey mutant, donkey mutant must be compatible with cow i.e. be able to sire from a cow, but at the same time must not be able to sire from donkey as it has mutated away from it.

There are no examples of sexual procreation among genetic mutants in the animal kingdom. It does exist in the single-celled domain of viruses, but they are borderline not strictly living entities.

Anyway the reason why evolution is a belief, is because the proof of evolution is only obtainable in time. Well the proof that we will be Judged will be obtained in time also. It is a forecast, a prediction a belief that something is going to occur to give us more information about the subject at hand.

Science is usually something that can be rigged and the phenomenon should be producible provided the conditions are in place. I heard no case of evolution being lab generated. Did you?

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Smart as in IQ. Predisposed to intelligence. Educated. Learned. Wise. Studied. Experienced.

Evolution occurs over thousands and millions of years. Species adapt to new and changing conditions. There ARE hard facts that support this phenomenon. Evolution doesn't require cross breeding to occur.

Even it it did, not all hybrid offspring are sterile. Most are, which makes sense. If species were able to crossbreed we wouldn't have the abundancy of species necessary for the cylce of life. But there ARE examples of mammal hybrids that are not sterile.

Just because no one person has lived 22,000 years to witness first hand the evolution of a species is not a reason to dismiss the theory.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

As far as Muslims are concerned, Allah is the ultimate 'Al-Khaliq' of everything that exists. Period. It is upto to Him on how He does it. As far as we are concerned, it should be enough for us that He says 'kun' and it happens.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Walekum Salam this is in reference to USR’s request
According to me if the creation plot by Allaah is allegorical then my thouhgt preludes from the stance of the Quran, my argument is Allaah has been consistent throughout the Quran.

  1. If Allaah’s words are allegorical why is this short story repeated in the Quran with impeccable consistency. Let me just put down the verses of the creation plot,
    a)Surah 2:30-39,
    b)then in Surah 18:50 Allaah has stated the iblis was one of the jinns.
    c)Again in verse 7:27 satan seduced the human.
    d)Surah 15:26:44
    e) Surah 38:71-85
    f) Surah 17:61-65
    g)Surah 7:11-25
    h) Surah 20:115-123
    i) Surah 4:1 this beats everything up
    SHAKIR: O people! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, by Whom you demand one of another (your rights), and (to) the ties of relationship; surely Allah ever watches over you.

Remember i have quoted around 65 verses above considering Quran has 6000 verses and above 1% of it is already proven to be allegorical.

Also to sum it up i havent added the complete Surah Al Kahf thats 18, as even that might be considered a allegory. Also i havent included the story of Cain and Abel.

Now the allegory part of the Quran stems from verse 3:7

SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

My concern is let the Muslims read the above verse, if the story of the creation has to be allegorical per se let me agree to it and support but

  1. Is the story of the she-camel allegorical.
  2. Story of saleh, jonah, this goes on because all this characters are abstract to us, the situations given in the quran by Allaah are abstract to us and also they have a short moral story.

This again is a problem for us Muslims.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

My argument wrt this thread did the complete evolution caused from mutation. If it so can someone provide me with some proof. Considering i am just a new bie to the concept of evolution.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Peace Seminole

Ignoring your pragmatism behind the term SMART, your post starts with a claim. "Evolution occurs over thousands and millions of years" How convenient! I'm not saying that about the timescale either. I am saying it about the manner in which it is written. Did I not say that science begins with "hypothesis" well this claim of yours is just that - an "unproven" hypothesis. (How can it be it needs millions of years to test it!) Therefore it falls comfortably in to the "theory" realm of beliefs.

To enable the evolution theory to be called a science it requires interactive or reproducible conditions. (again a convenience is the timescale). It is true that phenotypes vary due to environmental changes, such as human races, whiter skin is found further south or north away from equitorial regions, but this is not to say that humans have become a different species. Nor is it right to say that we have evolved from apes.

Survival of the fitest is the methodology behind natural selection. Over simplification is paramount here. As humans, evolution dictates, are of superior form, why is it that we are the ones concerned with the welfare of our weak and elderly and even the species who are dying out, why do we as progresses evolutionary entities defy the process of "survival of the fitest"?

There have been many fossils found that are assumed to be intermediate entities between species, but the problem occurs in trying to reproduce it. Or to have a living example of an ape being able to mate with it, and for that example to mate with a human to produce offspring in both cases.

I was not talking about crossbreeding. I was talking about the mechanism of evolution. It requires at least two similarly deficient beings to mutate away (from birth) from their parent species in order to mate and sire effectively with each other to produce a new species that will continue. The only bridge between change is at the interface of the next generative process. Unless the "science" of evolution sees it another way. Perhaps it is based on physical differences morphing the DNA of each cell (10's of millions cells) into other structures. That would be a gallant claim!

So which non-hybrid animals are not sterile? Just a good investigative point for me, please enlighten me! Oh, be careful of genus and species, etc ...

The fossil record is just as good for demonstrating the idea of Creation. With whole species appearing in the fossil record for a time and then wiped out to be replaced by another.

Anyway, something to think about!

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!


That is precisely what I think they are: Hence my understanding that the Quran is neither a sceince textbook, nor a historical document.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Ignorance, Stupidity and Dogmatism are epidemics.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

^Agreed,. Problem of ignorance falls on the person of who is knowledgeable because his ignorance is that perhaps he is the most intellectual person out here.
Well not true in all the cases, especially in forums each and everyone out here is out to prove his/her prowess very few people come here for the sake of knowledge and tend to discuss in those lines.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Salam bro,

Agreed its be we as muslims dont bracket the Quran in those lines of science, historical book this is the case only for the Muslims.
But also Allaah is ordered us to ponder over the Quran in all sense.
Well my point is Surah2:2, there is no doubt this book is from Allaah.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!


Very good point!

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Evolutions is not a science in and of itself, but a theory that is supported by multiple scientific disciplines...
Your can bury you head in the sand, but there is no denying that evolution is supported by overwhelming evidence through multiple sources.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Also, one has to realize that its not coincidence, but good fortune that we are here today... Its a testament to the tenacity of life that humans were able to survive...
People cite the belief that we couldnt have attained such "perfection" without some form of intelligent design... I dont see complete perfection if you ask me... While the human body is relatively efficient, we still have long way to go before can come close to perfection...
Just the fact that we are so highly susceptible to the multitutde of diseases out there, points to the fact that we still have some way to go...
If anything, Bacteria are far more resliant then we are.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

And the sources are:) . I personally feel let us take the topic ahead, make it more knowledgeable.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

I say to keep this discussion on track and knowledgible, lets make two camps here. Evolution is a broad thing and there are many points to discuss.

1 - Those who support evolution. Please briefly state what you understand by evolution, something like, we all evolved from single cell organisms or apes morphed into human species. I think we need to talk in specifics than argue about what is science and what not.

2 - Those who not support evolution. Please briefly state what you are against abotu evolution or specifically how much of evolution do you disagree with.

I think we have had good discussion here so far and it needs a direction or a specific point to discuss.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

Salamvalekum,

Pehle to aapne Salaam nahi kahi aur doosra mere post ka reply aapne nahi diya:teary1: :teary1: . Well just joking.

  1. Against evolution because its insignificant to say were due to some mutation and various other causes developed from apes to human.
  2. Support evolution in case we are talking about development of mankind i.e. from stone age to modern age.
  3. To say man has evolved defeats the complete scientific fact, for eg. for an eye to work properly each and every function of eye i.e. retina/iris/tear tissue/ have to work perfectly all at once and cannot evolve in parts according to the claim of evolution.
    The above is just an e.g.

Well, i will be glad if my points are not answered but as USR said let it be as it is before the claim of pro-evolutionists come up. Ofcourse at the end of the day we can summarize it and go ahead.
Problem is someone has to moderate and also put an upper limit of the no. of posts for pro and against evolutionists.

Re: Darwin: Man or monkey!!!

I am all for it (without participating)... bring the evidence, both sides...

FYI: laqad khalaqna al-insaan-a fiii aHsan-i taqweem
Certainly We created the human in a good/very-good/better/comely/well-conducted forming/worthing/process/rise/staying/making-right

Notes to creationists :)
- aHsan does not mean perfect