Correct! Not only that, the mention of Adam and Eve is an allegory in the Quran, we have been asked not to create discord based on literal or hidden meaning behind the story (and other such stories). The reason IMO is for us to keep an OPEN MIND, and not to shut it off, like most sectarians have.
The Quran is not a Science Textbook and neither is it a historical document. It is for the Creator to know how He created, and for us to find out through independant scientific analysis...
Many muslim scientists from the Medieval era had presented the theory of evolution (i'd call it Creation through Evolution) since that is the most plausible explanation! It was the Europeans who opposed this idea since they held on to dogma and superstition.
Personally, I think God can do better than what is described by the so-called "intelligent design". I mean think about it: God saying, oh oh, time for this species to end... zap... oh oh, time to create a new species... zap. What kind of a God is this?? Can't He even come up with a process that takes care of such things NATURALLY??? Can't randomness be the process itself??? Isn't that a MORE INTELLIGENT DESIGN???
Salam bro,
I agree with you but if you talk about ID we have got get some proof. If you go ahead and bring verses out of context and least bothered to analyse the complete Quran this is were the sectarian stuff comes into picture.
We are not here to present Quran to the westerners and please them. I feel so bad i have the other websites who they themselves call as Muslims and argue on the same lines as above.
I agree with you but if you talk about ID we have got get some proof. If you go ahead and bring verses out of context and least bothered to analyse the complete Quran this is were the sectarian stuff comes into picture.
We are not here to present Quran to the westerners and please them. I feel so bad i have the other websites who they themselves call as Muslims and argue on the same lines as above.
Not sure how you have come to this conclusion. Either you agree or you don't. And I am not here to please anyone... if anything, I am not going to agree with the pro-dogma sectarians based on belief or preconceived notions, be they of muslim or non-muslim origin.
Brother thanks for your concern, dont you think when i am asking you something i shud be prepared for it. Well i have studied the Evolution theory for 3 years when i was in school. It was mandatory, my concern is how much knowledge you have gathered out of this complete concept.
As i have written in my first post the evolution theory amongst the pro-darwinists also have to say that it can still be proven for lower form of animals.
Remember eveni can google out and cull out stuff to read about darwin, i am more concerned about how much knowledge you have collated.
If you want to have a healthy debate i am up for it my main concern is we have to be open minded rather than just some bigotry which is usual on the forums.
Not sure how you have come to this conclusion. Either you agree or you don't. And I am not here to please anyone... if anything, I am not going to agree with the pro-dogma sectarians based on belief or preconceived notions, be they of muslim or non-muslim origin.
Salam bro,
You know it very well what I mean, we cant just get one verse of the Quran and prove them the story, this is what most sects have to do and then it becomes there dogma. Like the 19ers they just prove the Surah 74 of the Quran, and have written articles regarding that. Like the Qadianis prove the Surah Ahzab verse 33/34 to prove there point. Like the Shias prove the concept of Imam from the Quran with certain verses. The sunnis are no where behind who prove there points from certain verses of the quran.
I hope i could name a few more, my point is I respect your viewpoint and I do respect the viewpoint of others because its there own belief.
Yes in the end i might be wrong and you might be right, and the vice-versa might also be true.
If its a healthy discussion i am up for it (discussion = argument - ego:) )
Ibn Khaldun [1332-1406, 400 years before Darwin!] wrote in his Muqaddimah, an Introduction to History:
"One should then look at the world of Creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedles plants. The last stage of plants such as palms and vine sis connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power to touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group. The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man ( after the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends."
There is more than one way to look at this statement. It could also be viewed as Allah SWT brought about things in this universe whether animate or inanimate in a gradual order such that each thing that evolved in that timeline was more intelligent than the predecessor and in some way also depended on it. So yes it is evolution but not one that suggests things morphed into a higher form of life. It may appear that way though.
There is more than one way to look at this statement. It could also be viewed as Allah SWT brought about things in this universe whether animate or inanimate in a gradual order such that each thing that evolved in that timeline was more intelligent than the predecessor and in some way also depended on it. So yes it is evolution but not one that suggests things morphed into a higher form of life. It may appear that way though.
Good... this is the kind of post I was looking for. THIS is a good argument. So we are not living in denial, but rather disagreeing on the underlying process of "evolution". So until we figure out God's plan, people, please stop with the namecalling; keep an OPEN MIND!
Good... this is the kind of post I was looking for. THIS is a good argument. So we are not living in denial, but rather disagreeing on the underlying process of "evolution". So until we figure out God's plan, people, please stop with the namecalling; keep an OPEN MIND!
Taking my argument further, Allah SWT could have also created humans (the same as stated in the Quran) when he thought that earth and its species have evolved into their final stages of evolution. So he inserted new species into the evolution path when each predecessor species was nearing its final evolutionary stage. However the way he created them was as stated in the Quran however they were obviously not as humans are today. Their awareness, intelligence and prowess was more advanced for the most evolved species on earth at the time, which we say Apes yet much backward for us today. This is the reason we find more similarity in them with Apes than with modern day humans. We as we are today have evolved from our first specimens i.e. Adam and Eve and infact are a different species.
I will not create discord and I consider it as a possibility as I have inferred to earlier.
Taking my argument further, Allah SWT could have also created humans (the same as stated in the Quran) when he thought that earth and its species have evolved into their final stages of evolution. So he inserted new species into the evolution path when each predecessor species was nearing its final evolutionary stage. However the way he created them was as stated in the Quran however they were obviously not as humans are today. Their awareness, intelligence and prowess was more advanced for the most evolved species on earth at the time, which we say Apes yet much backward for us today. This is the reason we find more similarity in them with Apes than with modern day humans. We as we are today have evolved from our first specimens i.e. Adam and Eve and infact are a different species.
I really don't understand any argument that is flat out against the possibility of evolution for humans (cuz I think even the greatest skeptics agree it is found in other species), but pride is the hardest one for me to accept.
I really don't understand any argument that is flat out against the possibility of evolution for humans (cuz I think even the greatest skeptics agree it is found in other species), but pride is the hardest one for me to accept.
Semi, it depends on what form of evolution we are talking about. What I do not accept is whatever form it may have had was not random. It was directed by someone even if that means composing a complex human being from single cell organisms.
^ I don't disagree with that at all. You have made some very rational and plausible points in this thread.
It's the whole "there's no way I came from a lower life form" wailing I don't get.
When you say "come from a lower form of life" do you mean come from Apes or do you constituent organisms because to me an ape is not a lower form of life but a different one with a different faculty of skills and intelligence.
I suppose I meant anything other than humans in their present form, although the aversion to apes is high in this thread.
:)
According to Quran we were created from clay (which may contain single cell organisms if you think about it), doesn't get anymore down to earth than that .... :D
Correct! Not only that, the mention of Adam and Eve is an allegory in the Quran, we have been asked not to create discord based on literal or hidden meaning behind the story (and other such stories). The reason IMO is for us to keep an OPEN MIND, and not to shut it off, like most sectarians have.
The Quran is not a Science Textbook and neither is it a historical document. It is for the Creator to know how He created, and for us to find out through independant scientific analysis...
Many muslim scientists from the Medieval era had presented the theory of evolution (i'd call it Creation through Evolution) since that is the most plausible explanation! It was the Europeans who opposed this idea since they held on to dogma and superstition.
Personally, I think God can do better than what is described by the so-called "intelligent design". I mean think about it: God saying, oh oh, time for this species to end... zap... oh oh, time to create a new species... zap. What kind of a God is this?? Can't He even come up with a process that takes care of such things NATURALLY??? Can't randomness be the process itself??? Isn't that a MORE INTELLIGENT DESIGN???
Well, creatures didnt just fall down and die whenever god wanted... It took time. Neanderthals for example held on for a few thousand years on the Iberian peninsula after Humans arrived... Eventually circumstances must have overwhelmed them. In fact many species continued to struggle to survive, and some did, others died a long slow death... God must have created faculties such as mutation to help species survive and prosper...
I cant venture to guess the motives behind what god does, but it seems god has given all species every oppurtunity to survive if they can... The ability to change and evolve is gods creationism at work in real time.
Bro