Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

ur nick suggest that u r muslim but u sound most of the time like Ram Deen.

relgious scriptures revealed and prophet came to show human beings right path and to teach them the aqaaid , ibadaat and basic principles to lead life.

they were not here to teach science and engineering. as many friends have pointed out that the addressee were arabs and the world was not so advanced at that time. so the language used was and examples given in Quaran was easy to understand and according to the level of undstanding of the ppl of that era.

the prime purpose of the divine scriptures to show ppl the right path instead of telling the ppl how to land on the moon and mars.

science is another discipline and field and islam never stopped human beings to do research instead it invites human being to think and reaserch about the allah creations. beside those were not muslims who hanged many scientist when they came up wid their theories.

as far as i can interpret this ayat of Surah Yaseen, it is about Day and night and not about the sun and moons movement.

you have to keep in mind one aspect that Surah Yaseen is considered the heart of Quran. so the way i look this Ayah is Quran is the book connected to our lives.
so what is more important to mention in the heart....day and night where one phase is to for working and earning and the other phase is to relaxing or the movement track of the moon and sun.


yes true, but the question is whether this interpretation could fit in the ayat?

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The translation "overtake" is not very accurate. A better word, IMHO, is "catch up with". As such the sun indeed has never caught up with the moon: they never touched or collided and that's because "each in its orbit swims!"
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Catch up never means colliding.

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That's not important! The Sahaaba did not know anything about science and in fact verses like this one are what compelled them to study astronomy, math, etc. precisely to understand.
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makes sense..

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Not directly but implicitly. The rotation of the earth is what causes day and night! Another knowledge-appetite wetter
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in fact Koran says otherwise.

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Then they would be wrong comments, because the verses clearly mention four phenomena: the sun, the moon, the day and the night. "Kull" can only mean "all". "Both" is "Kilaahuma.
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Is it incorrect to use KUL for 'two' in arabic? and what could orbit mean for day/night?

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Again, not directly because people at the time had no way of verifying it but could clearly see the sun and the moon moving about. The two verses that mention the word "Falak" (orbit) both include the day and the night in the orbit that they swim. That's food for thought for the curious.
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im not sure whether you mean the word 'orbit' applies only to the sun and the moon or the nigh/day as well, since you say KUL does not mean 'both' here. What could orbit mean for day/night?

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That's alignment, not catching up!

And Allah swt knows best!
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Catching up does not mean colliding. Two cars in a drag race can catch up without colliding. Alignment and catching up is the same thing here isnt it? To 'catch up' means to get alongside! not collide. for the obverser on earth, the solar eclipse is a 'catch up' of the sun and the moon. isnt it?

very interesting reply btw.. really did help clear a few things! and we can discuss mountain verse (27:88) some other time.


ameen

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For what do we have today, as a model for the universe, if it is any better? Okay, so the Earth goes around the Sun, or does it? The moon goes around the Earth or does it? Heck ... today we say the solar system goes around the centre of the Galaxy. Does it really?
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But when specifically talking about the the alteration of the day and night and the sun and moon and my theory encompasses not the entire universe rather only the four objects, wouldnt it be incorrect to say that the sun revolves or is in an orbit? And your further argument revolves around the relativity of the universe right?

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As an avid astronomy enthusiast I would like to make mention of the fact that the Moon regularly outstrips the Sun, but not vice-versa. What I mean by this is that for the same point of sky on any given day the Sun will move slower along it's path relative the stars behind it than the Moon will for an equivalent period of time. That is what allows the phases of the Moon possible in fact. However, at the same time the night does not outstrip the day in that moon is not in anyway linked to the night as the Sun is linked with the day.
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i didnt get that.. could you explain that a bit further?

Peace sNOVA

No ... even if you look at just the Moon, Sun and Earth you cannot conclude that the Moon strictly goes around the Earth or the Earth goes around the Sun. It is convenient to say so because the points that the Moon and Earth revolve around and in turn the Earth and Sun revolve around together are close enough to be considered the centre of the Earth and centre of the Sun. What I am saying is that even today we know something to be true yet we resort to the pragmatic or simple way of describing it. Likewise to say that the Sun has an orbit it true, but as mentioned earlier the intent of this ayat is most likely to be as perceived by the eye which means the word translated as orbit is better translated as cycle or cyclic motion. On star charts you will notice that this is how we represent the path of the Sun and other moving object through the sky using the constellations as reference points. These are called ecliptics and there is another line on these maps called the Astronomical Equator or simply the equatorial line. The effect is that charts today are also drafted in a Geocentric sense because Geocentricity in term of maps and bearings and spotting events in space still has it's uses. To see on the maps that the solar line or other planets are traversing through the constellations in wave like patterns a person may conclude that we believe the planets to be moving through those constellations, but the truth is we don't we use that to make observational measurements.

The same can be said of the ayat. The ayat is not to be considered as a matter of explanation of what is happening in 3D space, rather the ayat is to be used as a means to determine calculations of the moon cycles - i.e. phases and may be moonsets as well, and solar cycles such as seasons and the daily solar shift. The thing about this is that since then until now these have not changed. Then the moon cycle lasted 29 or 30 days and today it is still the same.

Let's say on Day 1 the sun is setting at exactly West and the moon somewhere above it at 15 degrees South West at an inclination of 12 degrees. The following day the point of sunset may be different with respect to the stars behidn it, but they cannot be seen. rather when the sun sets this can be seen. However, also the moon will be closer at the same point in time. The following day brings it closer still until it overtakes it. Notice the sun never overtakes the moon, but the moon overtakes the sun in the sky for the same time difference.

This is not the explanation but an explanation of the verse.

When it comes to night and day the day and night are consecutive as mentioned elsewhere. Perhaps in times of eclipses people thought the night was outstripping the day, this may be clarification for that. Also, if we use the idea that we are looking are lunar cycles i.e. phases of the moon, we can see that even when the sun is above the horizon the moon can be seen, but it may be that the very thin waxing crescent is made invisible to see when the sun is high. There are a number of possible explanations to these verses but to apply our own criteria on them is not the fault of the Qur'an but our own self-centered fallacious perspectives.


Alright! but what does it mean when the ayat says that '...nor does the night outpace the day? I get the first part where it says that the Sun does not catch up with the moon. Also if you could provide some link where i can better understand this concept of yours.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

alright i finally found a tasfeer of the verse. it goes as follows :

"The verse means that the day cannot erase the night until the night ends, and vice versa. Neither the day, nor the night can work in opposition to Allah’s system. Allah has prescribed certain periods when the night and day vary, which neither has the ability to contravene. The sun rules in the day and the moon rules the night. It cannot be that the sun may subdue the moon when it is scattering its light, nor can the night come before the day ends."

Do you agree with this tafseer psyah?

Peace sNOVA

In essence yes I agree, that corresponds with the idea that the sun when eclipsed does not mean that night has outstripped the day.

To understand the idea of how the moonsets work you will need to do a bit of studying. I do not know of any websites that directly deal or explain this. All I can tell you is that when it is full moon the sunrise coincides roughly with the moonset and during new moons the sunsets around the same time as a moonset that means the moon has to do some running to be able to get from one side of the sky to other within 15 days (half a month).

I’ll have to do some reading up again to get some more info for you as well.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

a verse can have only one correct interpretation. so now you discard your theory? in any way, your interpretation would hold only for the first part of the ayat. correct?

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^ we cant really say what is the correct interpretation in an absolute sense sNOVA.

very interesting thread, and very impressive replies psyah!


well why not? we cant cherry-pick. tht way koran can have several meanings. and tht is not restricted to only the koran.

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very interesting thread, and very impressive replies psyah!
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indeed nice replies by psyah and i was getting closer to the verses interpretation until i found the tafseer which says the verse simply means day/night have there own seperate timing in neither can contravene which raises other questions. its all so befuddling. it seems that we are jumping from one to another.

I didnt mean that there are several meanings, only that whatever meaning you go with is your preferred meaning, not Allah's.

As in everything, whatever we make of life or Quran, or any book is limited to ourselves. You can try to avoid cherry picking, and you can decide to stick with the rulings of a given person/aalim on all matters. that would nevertheless still make the understanding you have of the verse, yours (or at best the Aalims).

I dont wish to make it tedious, I was just saying the choice you offer psyah to retract one of the two meanings is a false one. It could be that they are both valid interpretations, and there is no objective way of knowing which is the one intended by Allah.

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indeed nice replies by psyah and i was getting closer to the verses interpretation until i found the tafseer which says the verse simply means day/night have there own seperate timing in neither can contravene which raises other questions. its all so befuddling. it seems that we are jumping from one to another.
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I think my approach would be to take all the answers I get, reject any that conflict with my understanding of science, and not try to eliminate interpretations that 'fit' reality, since each of these could be correct.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

I dont really get it. When it come to proving miracles, we twist and manipulate the verse to suit our preconceived notions. When it comes to clear cut ayats we say we can never know what God really means. What is that? that way every religious text is accurate according to its adherent's interpretations since everyone 'will' find an explanation for any verse, or anything for that matter. When God says "He is One", is He being definitive or is it open to several interpretations? e.g. the christianity concept of trinity, 3=1 just like water can have three different states. anyhow for me an ayat can have only one correct interpretation/meaning. two cannot be right at the same time.

I dont want to pick up the best interpretations for one part, which doesnt explain the other part, and then choose yet another which explains the other part. Its not about how 'well' someone's interpretation fits. What's important is that we know the true meaning.

Peace sNOVA

That is not strictly true. Two, three or more interpretations can be true at the same time so long as they do not contradict one another in essence. For example the sun in an orbit can mean both the path of the sun as it traverses the sky as well as an actual orbit around the collective bodies that are influencing it. There are levels of truths which apply.

In Surah Fatihah we say "Guide us to the Striaght Path" there is no reason why this cannot be meant in a literal sense. That we ask Allah (SWT) to guide us on our journey to a quick and straight path, but at the same time it means the straight way - which is truth.

Only when a condition is completely opposite can it be either or. One meaning may encompass another.

Also, in the Qur'an the superiority of it we see it says "the zarra of good you shall see it, the zarra of evil you shall see it" - Zarra here is a moving target. So long as each generation that comes across this term understands it to mean the smallest possible thing, then we can say zarra is sand grain, as well as an atom as well as a quark, or smaller, depending on the knowledge of our time. This is one of the reasons why the Qur'an is relevant for all times.

With regards to the theory above I'll come back with a more academic response in time inshaAllah.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

what is truth really..

:p

no i dont want to get into that discussion. it was an offhand remark that has nothing to do with the topic. i dont mean to suggest that one should be disingenuous, picking and choosing meanings, twisting things around deliberately. none of what I say means I excuse intellectual dishonesty. all I meant is that a little bit of self-doubt is necessary, and any tafseer, whether from yourself, GS poster, or from some aalim, should also be regarded with skepticism. furthermore multiple interpretations can be made from a verse, and so long as none of them contradicts reality, unless one has additional grounds for regarding one meaning as preferred, they're all valid.

if the meaning is clear cut as you say then there wouldnt be such a long debate on it would there! the meaning would have been clear cut to readers in pre-copernican times, but their understanding would obviously have been incorrect/incomplete from our perspective today.


If you consider "Guide us to the straight path" in isolation then yes, it could mean the journey or anything in which somehow a 'way' is implied. Guide us to the straight path to defeat the enemy, to conquer this or that. However when you contextualize it in Surah Fatiha, then the 'way' is only one! Allah is not refering to the straight path to Jerusalem.

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Also, in the Qur'an the superiority of it we see it says "the zarra of good you shall see it, the zarra of evil you shall see it" - Zarra here is a moving target. So long as each generation that comes across this term understands it to mean the smallest possible thing, then we can say zarra is sand grain, as well as an atom as well as a quark, or smaller, depending on the knowledge of our time. This is one of the reasons why the Qur'an is relevant for all times.
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Again context is important. Language is full of metaphors and similes. Of course, if i literally translate it that i will see a grain of 'sand' then im utterly mistaken. If you interpret it outside its metaphors it will loose its meaning. So you 'will' have to look at it through one interpretation.

'Truely, those who swear allegiance unto thee, swear allegiance only to God. The Hand of God is above their hands' 48:10 Is this verse open to interpretations? Can we interpret that Allah has tangible Hands? Or should we establish its meaning through metaphors? If your consider the metaphors, Hand hear means Power/Authority etc but you cannot interpret is outside the boundaries of metaphors which will render it meaningless and lead to kufr.

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Two, three or more interpretations can be true at the same time so long as they do not contradict one another in essence.
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True, but we should have an umambiguous reason for doing so. For example in case of metaphors.

First of all Quran is not interpreted, it is understood. We need teachers but we don’t need interpreters, nobody interpreters the Quran. Just as you go to school, people teach mathematics, they don’t interpret it [they explain it to you]. That’s what the writers of ‘Tafisr’ did. They said you have a problem understanding this Ayah, well look at this Ayah and this one and you know this and you know that, now put them all together. That’s teaching not interpreting. Interpreting is when you say the real meaning is a secret, I know the secret, I’ll tell you the secret, that’s interpreting.

That is not to say you understand each and every thing that is in the Quran, but the idea is that it can be understood, it may involve some work. Teacher assembles the facts and he help you learn it, interpreter says don’t try to learn it, I’ll tell you, trust me.

The principle of understanding the Quran is laid down in the Quran itself, verses 3:7. There are two kinds of verses in the Quran. Some of the verses are implicit, while the others are explicit. To understand the implicit verses, look at verses that are explicit on that matter and you will not go astray.

Why couldn't it be understood in that way?

Where? Name the verse.

It's permissible in "Bayaan" (elegant prose) or in poetry and then it implies plurality in an allegorical way. For instance, verse 49:9 says "If two groups of believers fight (in plural) then make peace between them (dual)." Here the reason for the plural is that each member of group is fighting and therefore it's more than two but the reason for the dual is that the peace making is between the two units or their representatives.

But since the sentence in 36:40 names four entities, there is no justification of understanding "Kull" as referring to only two of them.

Yes, but only if they are racing on the same circuit*. ***Sun and Moon do not revolve around the same body, each in its orbit runs**.

Let’s assemble other verses on this subject [based on the principle mentioned in 3:7].

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? (39:5)

*There are some keys points to be noted;*

39:5 uses a most interesting verb in describing the succession of the day and the night, the verb يكور ("yukawwir") which means that their succession is the result of a rotation of a ball.

And he made the sun and moon ‘Yajree’ (Run) for a specific term.

A distinction is made for the Succession of the day and the night and is referred to by ‘Yukawwir’ (their succession is the result of a rotation of a ball) and Yajree (to run in a circuit) is used for the motion of Sun and the moon.

Beside that the verse mentions six phenomena: the heaven, the earth, the sun, the moon, the day, the night.

And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to catch up the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Ya Sin: 38-40)

**Important thing to note **is that the verse makes clear a distinction between the motion responsible for night and day and the movement of the Sun and Moon.

Nor for the night to outstrip the day’ --That clause would have no relevance if there was no distinction between the motion responsible for night and day and the movement of the Sun and Moon.

An important verse on this issue is Surah ash-Shams, 1-4

**1. **By the sun and his brightness,
**2. **And the moon when she followeth him,
**3. **And the day when it revealeth him.
**4. **By the Night as it conceals it.

The verb Allah uses in verse 3 is جلاها which means "unveils it" or "shows it without obstruction."

If the earth was stationary and the sun revolved around the earth, than it would be the sun that would unveil [display] the day. But what does Allah says;

It is the day which unveils [displays] the sun and the Night hides it (not the other way round where the sun reveals the day). It is therefore not the movement of the Sun that is responsible for night and day.

I hope that was helpful.

May Allah swt guide us closer to the truth

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

:salam:

sNova, Hamzah and Psyah … brothers

I think we need to get our facts out here first before any debate on the verses.

1 - The occurrence of night and night is not tied with the appearance of the moon. The night and day happen due to earths rotation along its axis. The side facing the sun is the one doing through daytime and the side not facing the sun is the one experiencing night. So only one side of the earth can be facing the sun which corroborates that its either day or night, cannot be both at the same time. Eclipses are not associated with the occurrence of day or night.

2 - The sun and moon are runnning through different orbits. To my understanding the sun’s orbit is far less shorter than that of the moon. Where does this apply in the verse?

Very nice post bro.

I did want to comment on the emboldened part though. The movement of the sun relative to the stars here could be taken to the earths orbital motion as well meaning you are looking at the sun from a different point in the orbit and naturally different stars behind it. The same stars should then appear at a year apart, if not, then the sun itself must be in orbital motion as well.

Salamu alaykum,

Does the Quran say's otherwise.

  1. By the sun and his brightness, And the day when it revealeth him (The Sun).

  2. By the sun and his brightness, By the Night as it conceals it (The Sun).

Does the verse say that moon unveils the night? It's the day that unveils the Sun and the Night that conceals the Sun.

Now compare your statment with the verses of the Quran.

wasalamu alaykum