Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

“The sun is not allowed to overtake the moon, nor does the night outpace the day. Each in its orbit runs.” (36:40)

This along a few other ayats have given me a hard time. Can anyone come up with an explanation? websites often start their interpretation with the hackneyed " Koran is not a science book " phrase. Although koran is not a scientific book but everything that it DOES contain should be the ultimate truth. You cant circumvent a few ayats under this pretext and then cite the Miracles of Koran the next instant ( Like the expanding universe, embryo etc).

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

its driving me crazy! now i came up with a few explanations myself. One way to look at it is Allah is in fact refering to the sun's revolution around the galaxy. But this cannot hold for two primary reasons. Firstly, this explanation would be completly out of context. The ayat is cleary devoted to the Day/Night and its explanation. Secondly, if it is in fact refering the revolution of Sun around the galaxy, did the companions of the Prophet(s) extrapolate a sun revolving around the galaxy? More importantly, what did the companions understand by this verse?

sNova, What is bothering you about this very ayat. Pls spell it out clearly.

Every celestial and tresstrial bodies are performing their alloted tasks regularly, punctually and unerringly, without trespassing on oneanother's sphere of action.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

whats bothering me is the seemingly pre-Copernicus tone of the ayat. The ayat does not mention the rotation of the earth but mentions the 'orbit' of the moon and the sun. " The sun does not overtake the moon" what is this supposed to mean? Isnt the verse implying a geocentric solar system?

Salaam,

If you look at the previous verses for context you will see that the context is time calculation from the perspective of a human being on the earth looking up at the sky. The lunar time is different than solar time which why Ramadan always starts a few days earlier each year.

[36:38] T*he sun sets into a specific location,* according to the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
[36:39] The moon we designed to appear in stages, until it becomes like an old curved sheath.
[36:40]** The sun is never to catch up with the moon *- the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its **own orbit. *
If the sun deviated from its orbit we could not calculate solar time (gregorian calender), and if the moon deviated form its orbit we could not calculate lunar time (Islamic calander). In addition, all the natural environmental systems would screw up and the conditions for life would be screwed up and no life could exist.

To reaffirm the sun and the moon are for timing devices we find the reference in the Quran..
[Quran 17:12] We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.
So, it does not imply a geo-centric system because the context is time calculation from the perspective of an human being on the surface of the earth looking up at the sky.

I hope this perspective helps you.

peace
submitmj

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

Thx for the responce.

Talking about the context, it is actually the SIGNS that Allah is drawing the attention of the reader to in the verses preceding 36:40. The context is not time calculation rather SIGNS. The verse is unequivocal about the orbit of the sun and the moon ( even if the context is time calculation). The sun has no orbit as we all know ( except for sun's revolution around the milky way and its reference here would be completely out of context).

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

does anyone know an article which refutes this? or knows arabic which can help cite translation errors (if there are)

No, from the surrounding verses we can see that the reference is to day/night cycles.

Signs for whom? Clearly earth-based observers....

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

[QUOTE]
[36:41] [36:41] It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. All of them float in an orbit.

[/QUOTE]

Its not really that hard to understand.

Allah is talking about day and night in the verse. Sun is representing day, and the moon representing night. Allah says day cannot catch night, nor can night catch the day. Each has its own time. To put it in even more simplified terms, there cant be darkness and light at the same time. Sun and moon in the verse is just pointing at day and night.

All of them float in an orbit also means that everything runs according to Allah's plan.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

sNova... see if this helps answer your question.

36:38

And the sun: it is running to its appointed destination. That is the measure of the Almighty, the Knower.

[Until the 19th century, it was thought that the sun was static. But, the celebrated Russian philosopher, astronomer and mystic, P.D. Ouspensky (author of Tertium Organum, 1878-1947), had maintained that any science that contradicted the Quran would turn out to be false. Then, during Ouspensky’s lifetime, it was discovered that the sun is moving toward a specified destination at 12 miles per second, 43,200 miles per hour! This destination has even been assigned names, the Solar Apex, the Constellation of Hercules. Guess what Ouspensky did! He embraced Islam]

he did not. You don't have to lie to make your point.

Since when does 'orbit' mean plan? this is so frustrating actually

Well isnt it interesting? I see people miraculously linking vague verses to scientific miracles but at the same time link clear, unambiguous verses to incoherent interpretations ( like Mr.Poppat). Double standards....

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

Well maybe all of this is so difficult since im a muslim. I'll play the atheist for the time being.

I learned in my general knowledge class that sun has no orbit and this geocentric solar system was the belief of early people. I come across Koran which muslims claim to be the word God. I peruse the text and find this particular verse which says that the sun does not overtake the moon and each of them has an orbit! How would you explain that to me? an atheist.. and please keep those "orbit= plan" interpretation away for muslims.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

No one? Cmon muslims! Justify your book, which you claim to be the Word of God!

Consider the last part carefully,

"... everything is gliding along smoothly in its orbit." 'KUL' means everything i.e., all the heavenly bodies [examples sun for star, moon for planet] are in smooth swimming like motion in their respective orbits" Obviously, earth is part of All 'KUL'].

27:88
The mountains that you see, you think they are stationary while they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds. Such is the work of Allah Who made everything firm and strong..

If the mountains are said to be in constant motion, then the only logical inference that can be drawn from this would be that the earth is also rotating along with them

May be sun does have an undiscovered orbit after all. May be thats what keeps our solar system in a disc shape. May be solar system is revolving around a black hole, and thats why all planetory orbits are flat (all are in a 2 dimentional flat space effect of rotation with respect to center ). I am throwing a hypotheseis. Throw it if you don't like it.

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

:salam:

sNOVA, I think your confusion is because you think the word ORBIT can only be used to describe the elliptical or spherical revolution of planets around the sun or it can only be used for defining celestial movements.

The audience that was addressed at the time had no idea of celestial movements or paths or knowledge of the galaxy as we do today. The word ORBIT here has been used to indicate the usual routine of something not the celestial movement of the sun and moon (indirectly it could be linked to it but not precisely).

The audience that was addressed was simply being pointed to the fact that the two celestial bodies i.e. sun and moon, follow their routine course, which is they alternate in appearance as do the night and day.

On a second note, the word FALK or root word FA-LAAM-KAAF in arabic does mean celestial orbit however is has other meanings as well one of which strikes a good understanding here. One meaning of the word is (which definitely would be understood by the Arabs of that time) the commotion of waves i.e. to and fro motion or movement up and down as it appears. That is how waves appears to be going up and down, to and fro precisely how the sun and moon appear to us, the sun comes up and when it goes down, up comes the moon and vice versa.

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion." (21:33)

The sun must not catch up the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion." (36:40)

Here an essential fact is clearly stated: the existence of the Sun's and Moon's orbits, plus a reference is made to the travelling of these bodies in space with their own motion.

A negative fact also emerges from a reading of these verses: it is shown that the Sun moves in an orbit, but no indication is given as to what this orbit might be in relation to the Earth. At the time of the Qur'anic Revelation, it was thought that the Sun moved while the Earth stood still. This was the system of geocentrism that had held sway since the time of ptolemy, Second century B.C., and was to continue to do so until Copernicus in the Sixteenth century A.D. Although people supported this concept at the time of Muhammad, it does not appear anywhere in the Qur'an, either here or elsewhere.

The Existence of the Moon's and the Sun's Orbits


The Arabic word falak has here been translated by the word 'orbit'. Many French translators of the Qur'an attach to it the meaning of a 'sphere'. This is indeed its initial sense. Hamidullah translates it by the word 'orbit'.

The word caused concern to older translators of the Qur'an who were unable to imagine the circular course of the Moon and the Sun and therefore retained images of their course through space that were either more or less correct, or hopelessly wrong. Sir Hamza Boubekeur in his translation of the Qur'an cites the diversity of interpretations given to it: "A sort of axle, like an iron rod, that a mill turns around; a celestial sphere, orbit, sign of the zodiac, speed, wave . . .", but he adds the following observation made by Tabari, the famous Tenth century commentator: "It is our duty to keep silent when we do not know." (XVII, 15).

This shows just how incapable men were of understanding this concept of the Sun's and Moon's orbit. It is obvious that if the word had expressed an astronomical concept common in Muhammad's day, it would not have been so difficult to interpret these verses. A Dew concept therefore existed in the Qur'an that was not to be explained until centuries later.

The Moon's Orbit

Today, the concept is widely spread that the Moon is a satellite of the Earth around which it revolves in periods of twenty-nine days. A correction must however be made to the absolutely circular form of its orbit, since modern astronomy ascribes a certain eccentricity to this, so that the distance between the Earth and the Moon (240,000 miles) is only the average distance.

We have seen above how the Qur'an underlined the usefulness of observing the Moon's movements in calculating time (sura 10, verse 5, quoted at the beginning of this chapter.) This system has often been criticized for being archaic, impractical and unscientific in comparison to our system based on the Earth's rotation around the Sun, expressed today in the Julian calendar.

This criticism calls for the following two remarks:

a) Nearly fourteen centuries ago, the Qur'an was directed at the inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula who were used to the lunar calculation of time. It was advisable to address them in the only language they could understand and not to upset the habits they had of locating spatial and temporal reference-marks which were nevertheless quite efficient. It is known how well-versed men living in the desert are in the observation of the sky. they navigated according to the stars and told the time according to the phases of the Moon. Those were the simplest and most reliable means available to them.

b) Apart from the specialists in this field, most people are unaware of the perfect correlation between the Julian and the lunar calendar: 235 lunar months correspond exactly to 19 Julian years of 365 1/4 days. Then length of our year of 365 days is not perfect because it has to be rectified every four years (with a leap year)

With the lunar calendar, the same phenomena occur every 19 years (Julian). This is the Metonic cycle, named after the Greek astronomer Meton, who discovered this exact correlation between solar and lunar time in the Fifth century B.C.

  • The Sun*

It is more difficult to conceive of the Sun's orbit because we are so used to seeing our solar system organized around it. To understand the verse from the Qur'an, the position of the Sun in our galaxy must be considered, and we must therefore call on modern scientific ideas.

Our galaxy includes a very large number of stars spaced so as to form a disc that is denser at the centre than at the rim. The Sun occupies a position in it which is far removed from the centre of the disc. The galaxy revolves on its own axis which is its centre with the result that the Sun revolves around the same centre in a circular orbit. Modern astronomy has worked out the details of this. In 1917, Shapley estimated the distance between the Sun and the centre of our galaxy at 10 kiloparsecs i.e., in miles, circa the figure 2 followed by 17 zeros. To complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and Sun take roughly 250 million years. The Sun travels at roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this.

The above is the orbital movement of the Sun that was already referred to by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. The demonstration of the existence and details of this is one of the achievements of modern astronomy.

Reference to the Movement of the Moon and the Sun in Space With Their Own Motion

This concept does not appear in those translations of the Qur'an that have been made by men of letters. Since the latter know nothing about astronomy, they have translated the Arabic word that expresses this movement by one of the meanings the word has: 'to swim'. They have done this in both the French translations and the, otherwise remarkable, English translation by Yusuf Ali. Pub. Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, Lahore (Pakistan)]

The Arabic word referring to a movement with a self-propelled motion is the verb sabaha (yasbahuna in the text of the two verses). All the senses of the verb imply a movement that is associated with a motion that comes from the body in question. If the movement takes place in water, it is 'to swim'; it is 'to move by the action of one's own legs' if it takes place on land. For a movement that occurs in space, it is difficult to see how else this meaning implied in the word could be rendered other than by employing its original sense. Thus there seems to have been no mistranslation, for the following reasons.

The Moon completes its rotating motion on its own axis at the same time as it revolves around the Earth, i.e. 291/2 days (approx.), so that it always has the same side facing us.

The Sun takes roughly 25 days to revolve on its own axis. There are certain differences in its rotation at its equator and poles, (we shall not go into them here) but as a whole, the Sun is animated by a rotating motion.

It appears therefore that a verbal nuance in the Qur'an refers to the Sun and Moon's own motion. These motions of the two celestial bodies are confirmed by the data of modern science, and it is inconceivable that a man living in the Seventh century A.D.-however knowledgeable he might have been in his day (and this was certainly not true in Muhammad's case) -could have imagined them.

This view is sometimes contested by examples from great thinkers of antiquity who indisputably predicted certain data that modern science has verified. They could hardly have relied on scientific deduction however; their method of procedure was more one of philosophical reasoning. Thus the case of the pythagoreans is often advanced. In the Sixth century B.C., they defended the theory of the rotation of the Earth on its own axis and the movement of the planets around the Sun. This theory was to be confirmed by modern science.

By comparing it with the case of the Pythagoreans, it is easy to put forward the hypothesis of Muhammad as being a brilliant thinker, who was supposed to have imagined all on his own what modern science was to discover centuries later. In so doing however, people quite simply forget to mention the other aspect of what these geniuses of philosophical reasoning produced, i.e. the colossal blunders that litter their work. It must be remembered for example, that the Pythagoreans also defended the theory whereby the Sun was fixed in space; they made it the centre of the world and only conceived of a celestial order that was centered on it. It is quite common in the works of the great philosophers of antiquity to find a mixture of valid and invalid ideas about the Universe. The brilliance of these human works comes from the advanced ideas they contain, but they should not make us overlook the mistaken concepts which have also been left to us. From a strictly scientific point of view, this is what distinguished them from the Qur'an. In the latter, many subjects are referred to that have a bearing on modern knowledge without one of them containing a statement that contradicts what has been established by present-day science