Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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The Sequence of Day and Night

At a time when it was held that the Earth was the centre of the world and that the Sun moved in relation to it, how could any one have failed to refer to the Sun's movement when talking of the sequence of night and day? This is not however referred to in the Qur'an and the subject is dealt with as follows:

sura 7, verse 54:
God) covers the day with the night which is in haste to follow it . . ."

sura 36, verse 37
"And a sign for them (human beings) is the night. We strip it of the day and they are in darkness.

sura 31, verse 29
Hast thou not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night

sura 39, verse 5
". . . He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night."

The first verse cited requires no comment. The second simply provides an image.

It is mainly the third and fourth verses quoted above that provide interesting material on the process of interpenetration and especially of winding the night upon the day and the day upon the night. (sura 39, verse 5)

'To coil' or 'to wind' seems, as in the French translation by R. Blachère, to be the best way of translating the Arabic verb kawwara. The original meaning of the verb is to 'coil' a turban around the head; the notion of coiling is preserved in all the other senses of the word.

What actually happens however in space? American astronauts have seen and photographed what happens from their spaceships, especially at a great distance from Earth, e.g. from the Moon. They saw how the Sun permanently lights up (except in the case of an eclipse) the half of the Earth's surface that is facing it, while the other half of the globe is in darkness. The Earth turns on its own axis and the lighting remains the same, so that an area in the form of a half-sphere makes one revolution around the Earth in twenty-four hours while the other half-sphere, that has remained in darkness, makes the same revolution in the same time. This perpetual rotation of night and day is quite clearly described in the Qur'an. It is easy for the human understanding to grasp this notion nowadays because we have the idea of the Sun's (relative) immobility and the Earth's rotation. This process of perpetual coiling, including the interpenetration of one sector by another is expressed in the Qur'an just as if the concept of the Earth's roundness had already been conceived at the time-which was obviously not the case.

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

thank you all for the replies!! I have my mid-term exam coming up and i will repond to these replies once im done.

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Did the arabs at that time acknowledge this fact? Did they really understand that earth was rotating around the sun? If yes then why wasnt the idea documented in the scientific community of the arabs? If No then your claim is nullified.

[QUOTE]
27:88
The mountains that you see, you think they are stationary while they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds. Such is the work of Allah Who made everything firm and strong..

If the mountains are said to be in constant motion, then the only logical inference that can be drawn from this would be that the earth is also rotating along with them
[/QUOTE]

This is another example of fake miracles. The context is the day of judgement. Allah is decribing the events preceding the day of judgement and NOTHING is refering to the rotation of the earth!

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

USresident and Shamir123 i will respond soon.

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[FONT=Times New Roman]Until, when they come (before the Judgment-seat), (Allah) will say: "Did ye reject My Signs, though ye comprehended them not in knowledge, or what was it ye did?" And the Word will be fulfilled against them, because of their wrong-doing, and they will be unable to speak (in plea). See they not that We have made the Night for them to rest in and the Day to give them light? Verily in this are Signs for any people that believe! And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded - then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens, and those who are on earth, except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness. Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do. (27:84-88)

Yes Allah swt is describing the events proceeding the Day of Judgement, but at the same time Allah ask man to refelct on the His creation....

See they not.....Verily in this are Signs for any people that believe'' [27:86] ... This is not a reference to event as it will happen on the Day of Judgement.

"Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed"

Firstly this (part of the verse) is not a reference to Day of Judgement. Allah swt verse states that men believe that the mountains are stationary. The obvious interprepration would be that 'this is an illusion' else Allah swt would have said mountains are stationary [and not that man thinks].

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. (21:33)

Although only two celestial bodies are mentioned, *verb tense which is used *'küllün fı felekiy yesbehun”. ' referes to '*all' celestial bodies moving. *

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

I have heard such claims of religious works making supposedly deep scientific statements, regardless of which religion. Who knows.

When you point out something sounds impossible or ridiculous, they will simply say it is a analogous or metaphorical statement.

Truth is whatever you believe. Guys who are scared of ghosts will see one in every shaddow. Guys who want miracles will see one everytime they see anything.

If you start taking things literally every woman should have two fish and a pomegranite growing in her face!

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Just shows how much you have verified things.

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

Shahmir 123, i will be brief. I will not comment on the ayat 27:88 ( mountains) since it is self-explanatory. The mountains which we see as firm will be clouds by Allah's Will on that particular day. Simple and straightforward. No rotating earth is implied.

Furthermore, the ayat 21:33. You assert that ALL here means indeed all celestial bodies when the only celestial bodies even mentioned in the Koran are SUn and the Moon. Interestingly the word FALAK ( Orbit ) is always used with Sun/Moon and not even once for earth. All we do is draw vague, incoherent and far fetched conclusions about the rotation of the earth. Even if it was somehow implied that ALL bodies are in motion then this should have been readily accepted by the Sahabis (ra) and documented by early muslim astronomers. But it wasnt. Secondly, many commentators have translated the word Kul as BOTH, since only Sun and the Moon are mentioned in the verse. e.g. Ali, Usman and Umar went for the movies. All of them bought popcorn. By 'all' do i mean every person visiting the cinema or specifically the three?

Now a further point arises pertaining this verse. " The Sun does not catch up the Moon " The Arabic word Shams and Qamar are used for sun and moon respectively, which means that they really do mean the real tangible objects. If the Sun does not catch up the moon then how do we explain the solar eclipse? For the solar eclipse to occur, both of them should catch up in the orbit!

Even if God was implying the 'perceived' orbits of the two celestial bodies then the verse cannot explain the solar eclipse. Do correct me if im wrong. If you look at the verse from a purely scientific point of view then the phrase " the sun does not catch up with moon" does not hold value. But even if you look at it the other way it wouldnt make sense.

Since im discussing this topic from an atheist point of view, my comments should not be taken as an insult against the Koran.

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

and yes, please avoid copy pasting lenghty articles. just post the main argument of the article. this saves time. thx :)

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Quote:

does anyone know an article which refutes this? or knows arabic which can help cite translation errors (if there are)

Unquote:

will write to you later, Insha'Allah [a bit busy right now]

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

what i mean is dont post it here. a link wud do just fine ! i cud read the article myself later and if u cud provide the main idea behind the article it would make discussion a bit more convenient.

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Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

I was expecting a reply sNOVA.

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yes of course. But before that clear me one thing. Do you accept 'All" in that verse refers to only sun and the moon or to literaly every single celestical body in the universe ( as argued by shahmir 123)? Once we have have established the meaning of KUL (all) in the verse we can go forward and discuss your interpretation of the word 'orbit' which you say 'could' also mean the to and fro movement. thx. Since im not arguing just for the sake of arguing and i want to learn it would be to our benefit if we proceed in a coherent manner.

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I haven't read all of Shamir's replies just glanced at them. However before we proceed let me make it clear that I myself am here to discuss and learn from your point as well not necessarily to defend current translations. I think its important to realize that in pursuit of learning something. What I have found amazing and miraculous about Quran is that its words find a better interpretation with time as our knowledge increases, which in other words I am saying misinterprations which appear correct in their sphere of time do get outdated and corrected even more without ever affecting the terminology of the Quran.

I think I do agree with ALL implying the entities mentioned in the verse. The solar eclipse example is interesting however then does the verse need to take into account exceptions or normal routine though. Or is it that the interpretation needs updated?

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Your statement could be construed in a very negative way. With a very high probabilty in fact. Maybe you as a muslim 'want' to find an interpretation that fits well?

[QUOTE]
I think I do agree with ALL implying the entities mentioned in the verse. The solar eclipse example is interesting however then does the verse need to take into account exceptions or normal routine though. Or is it that the interpretation needs updated?
[/QUOTE]
what do you mean by updating? It sounds more like 'interpreting to suit our needs'. To me eclipses are pretty normal routine work for the solar system.

Lets go with your interpretation that 'falak' here merely means the perceived up and down cycle of the sun and the moon. ( although what else could falak mean beside orbit when sun and moon are mentioned,?) anyhow, then how can we explain the solar eclipse? Isnt God's statement in the Koran definitive? When He says that the sun is not permitted to catch up with the Moon, isnt the verse unconditional? If its not then how? And how could we update the interpretation here?

Lets go back to the 7th century. The prevalent belief is of the geocentric universe. There are even no hadiths which suggest that the sun is stationary and the earth is in constant motion ( correct me if im wrong). For the 7th century people the verse in fact simply corroborated their belief in a geocentric universe. The sun does not catch up with moon...each swims in its orbit. For the observer its seems as if the moon simply follows the sun in its path ( i guess even this is mentioned somewhere in the Koran, but im not sure) and that their paths do not overlap. Going with this interpretion, the occurrence of a solar eclipse is virtually impossible. So which interpretation do you want to go ahead with? Orbit = actual orbit or Orbit = perceived motions?

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Peace sNOVA

May Allah(SWT) shower His blessings and give guidance to all those who sincerely seek knowledge.

Let me begin by echoing the words of USResident that The Holy Qur'an is far more superior in it's terminology than we are or have ever been.

The title of the thread shows an ignorance which is "self-centric" so it is ironic that the contention is on an alleged claim that Al-Qur'an speaks in terms of "Geocentricity" ...

For what do we have today, as a model for the universe, if it is any better? Okay, so the Earth goes around the Sun, or does it? The moon goes around the Earth or does it? Heck ... today we say the solar system goes around the centre of the Galaxy. Does it really?

Even these all are generalisations ... they are inaccurate descriptors of what is actually happening. And may be what I am about to tell you is itself prone to error. But it will be far better than the above.

The Earth-Moon couplet are engaged in each others gravity field in actual fact they both rotate about a point which is between the centre of gravity of both bodies. It just so happens that the earth is a lot more massive and hence this point lies closer to the Earth's centre than the Moon's. However, even this is a generalisation. I'll explain ...

First, let's look at the Earth-Sun couplet. They too are engaged in a mutual orbit with the centre of gravity of both. However, now put more things in to the equation, which is all the other planets and astral bodies all exerting forces of attraction on to each other and hence creating a melting pot of orbits and subsidiary orbits and elongations and contractions. Now factor in the rest of the galaxy and the motion of the whole solar system which seems to be going around the centre of the so called supermassive black hole, which really wobbles itself as a result of other gravitionally affecting bodies in the galactic soup.

The effect is that it would be totally and wholly wrong to say that the Moon orbits the Earth, because we know that is not technically true. However, we do know that it does indeed maintain an orbit since all signs we have demonstrate this. It keeps up with the solar system, it keeps up with the Solar wobble, it keeps up despite all this all other influences and goes what can be described as effectively going around the Earth.

You see the definition is not wrong but it is limited ... you see to say that it "maintains an orbit" one can never go wrong. but to say it goes around this or this object then we can be wrong based on the frame of reference.

This is my first point ... The terminology of Al-Qur'an is superior

Now to explain what the ayat mean:

It is intended to be the perceived Sun and Moon as they traverse the sky ...

As an avid astronomy enthusiast I would like to make mention of the fact that the Moon regularly outstrips the Sun, but not vice-versa. What I mean by this is that for the same point of sky on any given day the Sun will move slower along it's path relative the stars behind it than the Moon will for an equivalent period of time. That is what allows the phases of the Moon possible in fact. However, at the same time the night does not outstrip the day in that moon is not in anyway linked to the night as the Sun is linked with the day.

These things only a person who reads star charts regularly and knows and understands how to locate and take bearings from the astral bodies can do, because it was based on these gems of verses that the Arabs eventually deveoped superior astronomical equipment, long distance measurement devices and mapped the majority of the world.

If you want more explanation I'll provide it happily ... for the time being ... this should be enough to be mulling over.

May Allah (SWT) be Praised.

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Salamu alaykum

First of all, even if the Qur'an doesn't state that the earth spins around its axis it doesn't mean there is a 'difficulty' with the Qur'an. The Qur'an doesn't say mosquitoes have wings either. A difficulty would be an error in the Qur'an that we cannot explain away, not a fact that is not mentioned.

The Sun moves in a roughly circular orbit around the galaxy at a distance of 26, 500 light-years. The orbital speed is roughly 230 km/s and its orbital period is about 240 million years.

The Moon makes a complete orbit around the Earth every 27.3 days. This is called a sidereal month.

The translation "overtake" is not very accurate. A better word, IMHO, is "catch up with". As such the sun indeed has never caught up with the moon: they never touched or collided and that's because "each in its orbit swims!"

I don't see that at all! Maybe I don't see clearly without my glasses. The verse itemizes several of God's precise designs and signs that all can clearly see for themselves.

That's not important! The Sahaaba did not know anything about science and in fact verses like this one are what compelled them to study astronomy, math, etc. precisely to understand.

With verses like this (and others), God is wetting the appetite of Muslims to seek knowledge.

Say, "Travel through the land and observe how He began creation. Then Allah will produce the final creation. Indeed Allah, over all things, is competent." (29:20)

Which they sure did;

Mohammed al-Sijz (945-1020 CE), Ali Qushji (1403-1473), Abu al-Rayhan al-Birun, Ja'far ibn Muhammad al-Balkhi were amongst those who were of the opinion that Earth was moving.

Nasir al-Din al-Tusi (1201-1274) was an astronomer, biologist, chemist, mathematician, philosopher, physician, physicist, scientist, and a theologian. Tusi was also the first to present empirical observational evidence of the Earth's rotation, using the location of comets relevant to the Earth as evidence.

It’s interesting to note that some of them were theologians whilst some of them studied under the supervision of scholars (like Ali Qushji).

Apparently (though I have personally not verified it) the Hanbali scholars have recorded a fatwa in ‘Tabaqaat ul-Hanbaabilah’ that there is consensus on the roundness of the Earth and its’ movement and whoever says otherwise is a kaafir.

Not directly but implicitly. The rotation of the earth is what causes day and night! Another knowledge-appetite wetter

I'm not so sure;

Until, when they arrive [at the place of Judgement], He will say, "Did you deny My signs while you encompassed them not in knowledge, or what [was it that] you were doing?" (27:84)

And the decree will befall them for the wrong they did, and they will not [be able to] speak. (27:85)

Do they not see that We made the night that they may rest therein and the day giving sight? Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. (27:86)

And [warn of] the Day the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will be terrified except whom Allah wills. And all will come to Him humbled (27:87)

And you see the mountains and think they are rigid while they pass [like] the passing of clouds. [That is] the handiwork of God who perfected everything. He is knowledgeable of what you do." (27:88).

The verse does not specify a day when that will happen, so it apply all the time. Evidence supporting that include;

a) The verse clearly speaks in the present tense and not in the future tense.

b) *To refer to the statements 'you think the mountains are stationary’, and ‘while they are moving’ '*to the
future is impossible.

c) If they, the mountains, were to fly in the future then how could man, even if he were perched at a safe distance on another planet, believe them to be stationary despite watching them flying in space? Hence such a translation is out of the question. Also, to translate this verse to indicate that though humans today consider the mountains to be stationary, they are not so because in future they will fly, would be evidently wrong. If the mountains are stationary today the humans would certainly see them to be stationary. It is not a question of their thinking them to be stationary. The Quran would have said 'You know them to be stationary and so they are but in future they will no longer be so'. This is not what the Quran says at all.

d) 27:86 talks about signs of God and so does 27:88.

e) How God ends the verse by saying "that is the handiwork of God, who perfected everything." That clause would have no relevance if the phenomenon in question happens only on one exceptional day.

Now how can the mountains be passing if the earth is stagnant as people felt and believed? Another knowledge-appetite wetter!

Again, not directly because people at the time had no way of verifying it but could clearly see the sun and the moon moving about. The two verses that mention the word "Falak" (orbit) both include the day and the night in the orbit that they swim. That's food for thought for the curious.

Then they would be wrong comments, because the verses clearly mention four phenomena: the sun, the moon, the day and the night. "Kull" can only mean "all". "Both" is "Kilaahuma.

That's alignment, not catching up!

And Allah swt knows best!

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:salam:

JAK Akhi for augmenting my line of reasoning. I was actually heading towards some of this which is why in my initial posts I had said that we should keep our interpretation simpler in the light of complexity we attempt to associate with verses and then fail to justify them after tieing them to a certain phenomena as if the Quran was revealed to explain it. Nice reply.

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On the contrary I wish to understand modern theories and validate them against the simplicity and infallibility of the Quran. I believe you missed what I was aiming at or maybe I failed to elucidate it.

It means we fail time and time again to explain modern scientific theories when we try to present Quran as if it were a scientific curriculum. This happens when we try to associate a time honored context with the Quran in cases like these where you assumed a geocentric model of the universe dsecribed in the Quran. I don't believe explaining either the geocentric or heliocentric was the intent of the Quran. There are things we still cannot fathom yet we try our level best to associate to with our limited knowledge. Many things are crystal clear for us that pertain to matters of faith yet some are not. This verse is one example of it where we find ourselves in coherence yet not. It does not prove that something in the Quran is flawed but rather what we are trying to associate with it does not belong with it. Hence the conflict.

With the geocentric model, the earth is the center of the universe with all other celestial bodies rotating around it. Quran is definitive however can you offer a definitive explanation of what "catch up" means? Can you explain how the verse gives away a geocentric model in such brevity?

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Some nice points in your post especially the difference between catching up and alignment meaning time required to complete its orbital motion.