Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

[sNOVA]

@mhamzahh

First of all Quran is not interpreted, it is understood. We need teachers but we don’t need interpreters, nobody interpreters the Quran. Just as you go to school, people teach mathematics, they don’t interpret it [they explain it to you]. That’s what the writers of ‘Tafisr’ did.

well how do you 'understand' Koran? I understand it by interpreting the verses i.e. by establishing the meaning of the verses, by looking at the grammar, at its context etc and we come up with the meaning behind the verse. To 'teach' is to impart knowledge. A teacher teaches an equation then tells you to interpret it. Tafseer helps you to understand the Koran. How exactly? Teaching? How do we teach? They establish the meaning. thats interpreting. hope you get my point.

[QUOTE]

But since the sentence in 36:40 names four entities, there is no justification of understanding "Kull" as referring to only two of them.
[/QUOTE]

Well thats ok, but you didnt answer what Orbit here means for Day and Night.Since Kull includes all the four

[QUOTE]
Yes, but only if they are racing on the same circuit*. ***Sun and Moon do not revolve around the same body, each in its orbit runs**.
[/QUOTE]

Hold on a second! what are you trying to say? That Allah mentions Day and Night and then all of the sudden mentiones that Sun has an orbit around the galaxy? Specify the Sun's and Moon's orbit here. perceived or real? You still havent cleared that for me.

[QUOTE]
Let’s assemble other verses on this subject [based on the principle mentioned in 3:7].
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? (39:5)

Surah ash-Shams, 1-4

**1. **By the sun and his brightness,
**2. **And the moon when she followeth him,
**3. **And the day when it revealeth him.
**4. **By the Night as it conceals it.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting verses indeed! But take a look at this verse : " Do you not see how your Lord lenghthens the shadows? Had it been His Will He could have made them constant.** But** We make the sun their guide; little by little We shorten them" 25:46

[QUOTE]
If the earth was stationary and the sun revolved around the earth, than it would be the sun that would unveil [display] the day.
[/QUOTE]

If the earth was rotating, the earth would be the guide not the sun.

[QUOTE]
But what does Allah say
It is the day which unveils [displays] the sun and the Night hides it (not the other way round where the sun reveals the day). It is therefore not the movement of the Sun that is responsible for night and day.
[/QUOTE]

It is therefore not movement of the sun, rather the earth which is responsible for the shadows

damn!! what is going on??? its crazy! This is what i mean when i say that people manipulate verses and 'interpret', whenever and however it suits them. But im not versed in the arabic language and if there is anything which makes the meaning of the ayat more clear please throw it in. Till now i have come up with one tafseer which draws your attention without further complications. It basically tells you that no fancy scientific knowledge is being refered to here. In fact the tone is very godly where it says that day cannot come before night and night cannot come before day. Consequently, the word 'orbit' which is of course linked to the last part of the ayat cannot 'contextually' be refering to real orbits of the sun and the moon because they do not cause day and night. and it makes perfect sense! hey! did i answer my own question? :D

[USResident]

@mhamzahh

Salamu alaykum,

Does the Quran say’s otherwise.

1. By the sun and his brightness,And the day when it revealeth him (The Sun).

2. By the sun and his brightness, By the Night as it conceals it (The Sun).

Does the verse say that moon unveils the night? It’s the day that unveils the Sun and the Night that conceals the Sun.

Now compare your statment with the verses of the Quran.

wasalamu alaykum

I agree here. I think more of the discussion is about “the sun does not overtake the moon”, what is the correct meaning of this in light of what was understood from it centuries ago and what could be understood from it now.

[USResident]

@sNOVA

... damn!! what is going on??? its crazy! This is what i mean when i say that people manipulate verses and 'interpret', whenever and however it suits them. But im not versed in the arabic language and if there is anything which makes the meaning of the ayat more clear please throw it in. Till now i have come up with one tafseer which draws your attention without further complications.** It basically tells you that no fancy scientific knowledge is being refered to here. In fact the tone is very godly where it says that day cannot come before night and night cannot come before day. Consequently, the word 'orbit' which is of course linked to the last part of the ayat cannot 'contextually' be refering to real orbits of the sun and the moon because they do not cause day and night. and it makes perfect sense!** hey! did i answer my own question? :D

Isn't that what I initially mentioned when I said it means routine course of activity.

[sNOVA]

@USResident

Isn't that what I initially mentioned when I said it means routine course of activity.

Atleast i understood. But what do you think about the verse about the Sun being the guide of the shadow?

[sNOVA]

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

one thing remains unanswered. the meaning of 'kull' here.

[USResident]

@sNOVA

one thing remains unanswered. the meaning of 'kull' here.

Per my understanding it refers to four entities in the verse, sun, moon, day and night. Each one has its routine to complete whether you take in terms of celestial or just the fact that it runs a course.

[shahmir123]

@sNOVA

one thing remains unanswered. the meaning of 'kull' here.

Here is an article on this issue; (Sorry haven't got enough post to post external links)

*He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 5) *

In the above verse the movement of the Earth is described by the word “yukawwiru,” which comes from root verb “takwir,” meaning “to cover up a spherical body,” in the way that the rotation of the Earth gives rise to night and day, like the winding of a turban. In addition to the spherical shape of the Earth the word is also the most accurate expression of its movement around the Sun. Because of the Earth’s spherical shape and its movement around the Sun, the Sun always illuminates one side of the Earth while the other is in darkness. The side in shadow is shrouded by the darkness of night, to be replaced by the brightness of day when the Sun rises. The positions of the Sun and Earth are revealed as follows in Surah Ya Sin:
And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Surah Ya Sin, 38-40)
The movements of the Sun and Moon in verse 40 of Surah Ya Sin are described by the Arabic word "yasba*h*oon*a*," meaning “flowing, passing or swimming.” This word refers to an action performed by someone on their own. Someone acting according to this verb continues to perform it alone, with no intervention from anyone else. The above verses may therefore be referring to the Sun’s independent movement in the universe, independent of any other celestial body. (Allah knows the truth.) It is impossible for us to see or follow the movement of the Sun with our own eyes. It is only possible to determine that movement using special technological equipment. As stated in verse 39 of Surah Ya Sin, in addition to rotating around its own axis once every 26 days, the Sun also moves through its own course.

The verse also reports that the Sun is not allowed to “overtake the Moon,” and the Qur’an thus states that the Sun and Moon do not revolve around the same body, as astronomers put it. At the same time, the verse makes it clear that there is no connection between the motion responsible for night and day and the movement of the Sun and Moon. (Allah knows the truth.)

Until the 16th century it was thought that the Earth was the center of the universe. This view is known as the “geo-centric model,” from the Greek words geo *(Earth) and *centron (center). This belief was questioned by the famous astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 in his book* De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium* (Of the Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres), in which he suggested that the Earth and the other planets revolve around the Sun. But as a result of observations using a telescope performed by Galileo Galilei in 1610, it was scientifically established that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Since it had hitherto been thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth, most scholars of the time rejected Copernicus’ theory. The famous astronomer Johannes Kepler's views setting out the movements of the planets confirmed the helio-centric model in the 16th and 17th centuries. In this model, whose name comes from the words Helios (Sun) and centron (center), the Sun is the center of the universe, rather than the Earth. Other heavenly bodies also revolve around the Sun. Yet this was all revealed 1400 years ago in the Qur’an.
By saying that the Earth was the center of the universe, the ancient Greek astronomer Ptolemy was responsible for the geo-centric idea of the universe that prevailed for hundreds of years. For that reason, at the time of the revelation of the Qur’an, nobody knew that the Earth-centered model that accounted for the formation of day and night in terms of the movement of the Sun was incorrect. On the contrary, all the stars and planets were regarded as revolving around the Earth. Despite these prevalent errors of the time, the Qur’an contains many expressions that agree with the scientific facts regarding day and night:
By the Sun and its morning brightness, and the moon when it follows it, and the day when it displays it, and the night when it conceals it (Surat ash-Shams, 1-4)
As set out in the above verse, day, the brightness of the Sun, is the result of the movement of the Earth. It is not the movement of the Sun that is responsible for night and day. In other words, the Sun is immobile in terms of night and day. The information in the Qur’an refutes the thesis that the Earth is fixed while the Sun revolves around it. The Qur’an is clearly descended from the presence of our Lord, He Who is unfettered by space and time. As science and technology advance more and more examples of the compatibility between the Qur’an and science are coming to light.

[psyah]

@USResident

I agree here. I think more of the discussion is about “the sun does not overtake the moon”, what is the correct meaning of this in light of what was understood from it centuries ago and what could be understood from it now.

Hmm … You know I was thinking about this whole topic with a clear mind and there is more to it now.

First of all we need to make sure that we are using the word “orbit” correctly.

Then we need to make sure that have understood the meaning just as you say

“the Sun does not overtake the moon”

Then there is also the context of the verses …

After looking at the verses I realised that some of the answers are staring at us already …

Just refer to the previous verses, Where it starts from “Wa 'aayatu hum-ul-Lailu …”

37. And a sign for them is the night, We withdraw therefrom the day, and behold, they are in darkness.

38. And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

39. And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.

40. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.

Compare verses 37, 38 and 39 with verse 40.

Okay … In 37 it states clearly that if the Day is taken away the result is Night. Hence this provides context to the part of verse 40 which states that “nor does the night outstrip the day” … in other words … “taking away the night will not bring day, but taking away the day will bring night”

Next we see in the Verse 38 that the sun is on a course until a fixed term, can this mean that it is consuming itself? Can it mean that this Sun will not always be there? Can it mean that the sun is travelling very fast?

Now look at verse 39 and we see that the moon is RETURNING i.e. in a cycle of some sort after perishing it grows again from a thin sliver … compared with a date leaf/stalk … I would hazard a guess that this is the phase of the moon. However, the moon moves faster in the sky and it moves faster than the sun in actual fact. So in verse 39 it states that the moon is faster and more longer lasting than the Sun, so in verse 40 the opposite condition i.e. the sun will never overtake the moon at those things …

So I truly feel that these verses need to be treated together to get a fuller understanding of them.

[psyah]

@sNOVA

If the earth was rotating, the earth would be the guide not the sun.

Peace sNOVA

Just wanted to comment on this statement of yours ...

Once a moving light source relative to the object casting the shadow is determined we then go about using ourselves as reference markers ... unfortunately just as the Earth rotates, we do so and so does the shadow casting object ... the thing that remains out of sync with us is the sun ... or rather the angle of the light from the sun.

The movement needs to be there it does not matter if it comes from the sun or the earth but the object also needs to be there to cast the shadow.

a) Light source
b) Relative movement

These above will create a growing shadow ... but we need to be on the Earth to observe this ... If the relative difference in motion between the Earth and the Observer is 0 then we can say that the light moves ... if we are stationary with respect to the light source then we can say the Earth moves ... hence Geocentricity still has it's uses ...

[psyah]

@USResident

Very nice post bro.

I did want to comment on the emboldened part though. The movement of the sun relative to the stars here could be taken to the earths orbital motion as well meaning you are looking at the sun from a different point in the orbit and naturally different stars behind it. The same stars should then appear at a year apart, if not, then the sun itself must be in orbital motion as well.

Peace USResident

I see what you saying here … The actually situation is a bit more complex than that …

There are layers to the night sky that some of us do not appreciate …

The constellations that we see are actually caught up in the same gravitational direction as ourselves and hence are travelling with us towards the centre of the galaxy, but between us we are also approaching some constellations and moveing away from others …

Then there is the deep space level which are galaxies these appear to the eyes as stars within some constellations but in fact are much further away than the true constellation stars (these galaxies average about 200 billion stars in each … all grouped into one tiny swirl which appears as a dot to the naked eye) … then we have ultra deep space which can be seen by looking through cosmic lense/telescope formations … in a nutshell these are conveniently arranged large masses in a ring such that the light that travels around them is pulled inwards to give us the appearance that light beyond is coming from nearer objects but in reality the source objects are much further away.

We can tell which direction the centre of our galaxy is going not by movement but by the clustering of the stars in the milkyway … and the effects of the gravity at the centre (super massive black holes).

Unfortunately the distance of the deep and ultra deep bodies are so large we cannot detect movement like we can with planets in our solar system for example … We must rely on spectral shift (which is like the doppler effect but with light) and dark matter to tell us which way we are going.

Also the estimated solar system galactic year is so high that we probably have not even completed one cycle for a very long time … To give a scale of things our own galaxy is about 100, 000 light years across in diameter, but we sit at a point something like 28,000 light years from the centre. That is an approx. circumference of 176,000 light years … Let’s assume that we as a solar system are travelling at a speed of 568,000 mph ~ which is approx. 254 km/second Solar system moving 100000 mph faster than thought; 15% speed increase translates to doubling of mass of Milky Way | WcP Blog…

This means after some calculation that we are travelling at 1/1180th of the speed of light and it will take us 208 Million years to do one circuit around the galaxy.

So 1 year will only give us an angle shift of 360 degrees/208, 000, 000 … which is not enough to be able to see we are moving.

[USResident]

@psyah

Hmm … You know I was thinking about this whole topic with a clear mind and there is more to it now.

First of all we need to make sure that we are using the word “orbit” correctly.

Then we need to make sure that have understood the meaning just as you say

“the Sun does not overtake the moon”

Then there is also the context of the verses …

After looking at the verses I realised that some of the answers are staring at us already …

Just refer to the previous verses, Where it starts from “Wa 'aayatu hum-ul-Lailu …”

37. And a sign for them is the night, We withdraw therefrom the day, and behold, they are in darkness.

38. And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

39. And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.

40. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.

Compare verses 37, 38 and 39 with verse 40.

Okay … In 37 it states clearly that if the Day is taken away the result is Night. Hence this provides context to the part of verse 40 which states that “nor does the night outstrip the day” … in other words … “taking away the night will not bring day, but taking away the day will bring night”

Next we see in the Verse 38 that the sun is on a course until a fixed term, can this mean that it is consuming itself? Can it mean that this Sun will not always be there? Can it mean that the sun is travelling very fast?

Now look at verse 39 and we see that the moon is RETURNING i.e. in a cycle of some sort after perishing it grows again from a thin sliver … compared with a date leaf/stalk … I would hazard a guess that this is the phase of the moon. However, the moon moves faster in the sky and it moves faster than the sun in actual fact. So in verse 39 it states that the moon is faster and more longer lasting than the Sun, so in verse 40 the opposite condition i.e. the sun will never overtake the moon at those things …

So I truly feel that these verses need to be treated together to get a fuller understanding of them.

I do agree that some of the answers are quite lucid especially those involving the moon phases. No one can mistake those.

When we say DAY, does it mean the absense of sunlight or the condition where the sun has not yet be revealed to our sight along the horizon. I choose the second because that seems to agree more with the other Quranic verses. The sun has to be hidden by the rotation of the earth not the moon (solar eclipse).

Its important to under the meaning of orbit in verse 36:40 because it applies to all the entities mentioned in that verse. Meaning that the sun, moon, night and day are all following an orbit. The application of the word in such a way makes me think that it does not have to do with celestial orbits. So the meaning of orbit is more in general terms of following a closed routine rather than actual astronomical terminilogy which associates with an orbit.

I seem to wonder the English translation is creating all the conflict and confusion. What would help is understand how the arabic words were understood at the time of revelation.

[psyah]

@USResident

I do agree that some of the answers are quite lucid especially those involving the moon phases. No one can mistake those.

When we say DAY, does it mean the absense of sunlight or the condition where the sun has not yet be revealed to our sight along the horizon. I choose the second because that seems to agree more with the other Quranic verses. The sun has to be hidden by the rotation of the earth not the moon (solar eclipse).

Its important to under the meaning of orbit in verse 36:40 because it applies to all the entities mentioned in that verse. Meaning that the sun, moon, night and day are all following an orbit. The application of the word in such a way makes me think that it does not have to do with celestial orbits. So the meaning of orbit is more in general terms of following a closed routine rather than actual astronomical terminilogy which associates with an orbit.

I seem to wonder the English translation is creating all the conflict and confusion. What would help is understand how the arabic words were understood at the time of revelation.

Al-Nahar should mean daylight because the context in verse 37 talks about darkness when al-nahar is removed. It is the analogy of removing guidance from the disbelievers so they are made spiritually blind … one needs light to see … not the sun.

Manazil - plural of manzil = ranks, stages or phases - as you say most likely phases of the lunar cycle.

Tudrik = overtake
Saabiq = outstrip

The fact there is always a set number of days in each lunar cycle means that this is a sign … there is always 29 or 30 days and this will never change. The days in a solar year do change that is why adjustments are required every 4 years then every 400 years. However, not so with the lunar phases.

We can conclude at least that the night/day combo is Saabiq and the Sun/Moon combo is Tudrik which means the words should not really be translated as equivalent.

Totally agree with the contention with the term “orbit”

Wa Qullun Fi FALAK inyasbahoon

And All are in a floating cycle

Falak = cycle “orbit”
yasbahoon = floating

Compare with Surah An-Naziat:

Was Sabihati sabha, Fassabiqaati sabqan …

And those who swim swiftly along and those who press forward

Interesting how outstrip is also used for accelerating or pressing forward and how sabha seems to take the meaning - suspended/floating/swimming.

Compare with the next verses in Surah Yasin and we have a boat on the water … is that like the Earth in solar gravitation field?

The questions are amazing … so imagine how amazing the answers will be !!!

[USResident]

@psyah

Peace USResident

I see what you saying here … The actually situation is a bit more complex than that …

There are layers to the night sky that some of us do not appreciate …

The constellations that we see are actually caught up in the same gravitational direction as ourselves and hence are travelling with us towards the centre of the galaxy, but between us we are also approaching some constellations and moveing away from others …

Then there is the deep space level which are galaxies these appear to the eyes as stars within some constellations but in fact are much further away than the true constellation stars (these galaxies average about 200 billion stars in each … all grouped into one tiny swirl which appears as a dot to the naked eye) … then we have ultra deep space which can be seen by looking through cosmic lense/telescope formations … in a nutshell these are conveniently arranged large masses in a ring such that the light that travels around them is pulled inwards to give us the appearance that light beyond is coming from nearer objects but in reality the source objects are much further away.

We can tell which direction the centre of our galaxy is going not by movement but by the clustering of the stars in the milkyway … and the effects of the gravity at the centre (super massive black holes).

Unfortunately the distance of the deep and ultra deep bodies are so large we cannot detect movement like we can with planets in our solar system for example … We must rely on spectral shift (which is like the doppler effect but with light) and dark matter to tell us which way we are going.

Also the estimated solar system galactic year is so high that we probably have not even completed one cycle for a very long time … To give a scale of things our own galaxy is about 100, 000 light years across in diameter, but we sit at a point something like 28,000 light years from the centre. That is an approx. circumference of 176,000 light years … Let’s assume that we as a solar system are travelling at a speed of 568,000 mph ~ which is approx. 254 km/second Solar system moving 100000 mph faster than thought; 15% speed increase translates to doubling of mass of Milky Way | WcP Blog…

This means after some calculation that we are travelling at 1/1180th of the speed of light and it will take us 208 Million years to do one circuit around the galaxy.

So 1 year will only give us an angle shift of 360 degrees/208, 000, 000 … which is not enough to be able to see we are moving.

Well put that way we will not be seeing anything different in our lifetime.

[USResident]

Al-Nahar should mean daylight because the context in verse 37 talks about darkness when al-nahar is removed. It is the analogy of removing guidance from the disbelievers so they are made spiritually blind ... one needs light to see ... not the sun.

Manazil - plural of manzil = ranks, stages or phases - as you say most likely phases of the lunar cycle.

Tudrik = overtake Saabiq = outstrip

The fact there is always a set number of days in each lunar cycle means that this is a sign ... there is always 29 or 30 days and this will never change. The days in a solar year do change that is why adjustments are required every 4 years then every 400 years. However, not so with the lunar phases.

We can conclude at least that the night/day combo is Saabiq and the Sun/Moon combo is Tudrik which means the words should not really be translated as equivalent.

Totally agree with the contention with the term "orbit"

Wa Qullun Fi FALAK inyasbahoon

And All are in a floating cycle

Falak = cycle "orbit" yasbahoon = floating

Compare with Surah An-Naziat:

Was Sabihati sabha, Fassabiqaati sabqan ...

And those who swim swiftly along and those who press forward

Interesting how outstrip is also used for accelerating or pressing forward and how sabha seems to take the meaning - suspended/floating/swimming.

Compare with the next verses in Surah Yasin and we have a boat on the water ... is that like the Earth in solar gravitation field?

The questions are amazing ... so imagine how amazing the answers will be !!!

I feel star dazed ... :)

Actually FA LAAM KAAF, in its root meaning is also used for the waves of the ocean precisely how it is used in the following verse 36:41.

Saabiq = SEEN BAA QAAF
Outstrip or precede or before or hasten or win .... all meanings relative to the case where one attempts to precede another for winning or any other cause.

So its more like the night cannot beat the day to its ordained time. Either one has its ORBIT (we haven't yet concluded to what meaning this carries), so there really is no competition between the two where one outstrips the other. They progress along their orbits according to their ordained times.

Will get to TUDRIK after some research. Though one thing of interest is that there is a hadith in Bukhari about verse 36:38 in the Book of Tafsir. Why don't you read it and see what you understand from it. It has me equally confused.

[psyah]

I feel star dazed ... :)

Actually FA LAAM KAAF, in its root meaning is also used for the waves of the ocean precisely how it is used in the following verse 36:41.

Saabiq = SEEN BAA QAAF Outstrip or precede or before or hasten or win .... all meanings relative to the case where one attempts to precede another for winning or any other cause.

So its more like the night cannot beat the day to its ordained time. Either one has its ORBIT (we haven't yet concluded to what meaning this carries), so there really is no competition between the two where one outstrips the other. They progress along their orbits according to their ordained times.

Will get to TUDRIK after some research. Though one thing of interest is that there is a hadith in Bukhari about verse 36:38 in the Book of Tafsir. Why don't you read it and see what you understand from it. It has me equally confused.

This is really good stuff bro! I didn't realise it was used for waves as well ... It is interesting how the mapping of cyclic motion on a graph is sinusoidal and that appears like a wave !!!

As for the Bukhari tafsir on verse 38 ... I'll go and read that now ... Peace

[sNOVA]

Salam

I completely agree with psyah and USresident that we do need define certain things more precisely to get a more congruous meaning of the entire matter. But I would like to add that I have some serious reservations about cherry-picking when it comes to proving through Koran or interpretations. We should not consider any single ayat in isolation. For example, Hamza and Shahmir123 have enthusiastically cited the verse 27:88 to support their theory that the Koran miraculously implies a rotating earth. “The mountains, firm as you make think them, will pass away like clouds…” Now the preceding the following verses are clearly devoted to the Day of Judgment. What shahmir123 and hamza did was that they ignored the context and interpreted it to suit their theory and completely discarded the fact that destruction is mentioned. In fact, elsewhere in the Koran, the annihilation of the mountains is mentioned again and it’s noteworthy that the context is Day of Judgment. “They ask you about the mountains. Say: ‘My Lord will crush them to fine dust and reduce them to a desolate waste…..” 20:105. My point is that there is this intractable (which is really frustrating) tendency of some people to be swayed by emotions or whatever in proving the ‘miracle’ even when there is none or interpreting the verse in a particular way. What it does is that it makes the author less credible and even forces you to look at ayats in a certain way.

@psyah

Compare verses 37, 38 and 39 with verse 40.

Okay … In 37 it states clearly that if the Day is taken away the result is Night. Hence this provides context to the part of verse 40 which states that “nor does the night outstrip the day” … in other words … “taking away the night will not bring day, but taking away the day will bring night”

Brother, the context of the last part of verse 40 is not 37 but clearly the first part of verse 40 itself. The sun does not overtake the moon NOR does the night overtake the day. In essence, its simply referring to the obvious fact that day and night cannot happen at the same time, each has its own time and neither can contravene.

Next we see in the Verse 38 that the sun is on a course until a fixed term, can this mean that it is consuming itself? Can it mean that this Sun will not always be there? Can it mean that the sun is travelling very fast?

We would love to see it that way but we cannot. The following hadith of the prophet(s) will be more insightful.* “*Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’”

a) Light source
b) Relative movement

These above will create a growing shadow … but we need to be on the Earth to observe this … If the relative difference in motion between the Earth and the Observer is 0 then we can say that the light moves … if we are stationary with respect to the light source then we can say the Earth moves

I don’t see how what you said, negates what I said. Clearly for the observer on earth the guide is Sun. “Had He willed he would have made them constant. But we make make the sun their guide…” Notice the words ‘constant’ and ‘sun’ clearly implying a connection between the movement of the sun and the length of the shadow. This is all true only with relevance to the observer on earth. But I’m taking the liberty to assume that when Koran deals with matters of the sun and the moon, they are not meant to be scientifically accurate.

Anyhow, my point was in connection to Surah al-Shams, where, according to hamza, the verse somehow reveals that earth is rotating. Clearly it’s a jump from being a mere observer on earth to 3-D scientific reality. Before that, it’s important to note that Koran regularly mentions Day/Night and Sun/Moon separately. Take the verse 14:33 for example: “…..He has subdued for you the sun and the moon, which steadfastly pursue their courses. And He has subdued for you the night and the day”. In other words, Night/Day and Sun/Moon are two distinct signs of Allah. Other verses will reveal a similar pattern. So when the verse 91:33 reads “by the day, which reveals his splendor: by the night, which veils him” it’s simply a continuation of the Koranic tone to describe the signs of Allah. Well that might even explain the ambiguous word ‘orbit’. Since the Sun/Moon and Day/Night are never mentioned in the Koran (as far as I know) in a way to imply causality the word ‘orbit’ can make more sense, especially when the word ‘KULL’ is mentioned

Take the verse 21:33 here: “It was He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon: each moves swiftly in an orbit of its own” Again the word “kullun-fii falakin yasbahun” is used. And yet again in the verse 31:29 “ Do you see how God causes the night and day to pass into the day and the day to pass into the night and has pressed the sun and the moon into His service, each (kullun) running (yajrii) for an appointed term” Apparently it does seem that Kullun refers to day/night and sun/moon, which begs the question of how can the ‘orbit’ in its normal treatment be used for Night/Day? If the Arabic language accommodates a more vast meaning of orbit, something like a ‘cycle’ then it will solve the problem. So what do you think?

[mhamzahh]

The mountains, firm as you make think them, will pass away like clouds…” Now the preceding the following verses are clearly devoted to the Day of Judgment. What shahmir123 and hamza did was that they ignored the context and interpreted it to suit their theory and completely discarded the fact that destruction is mentioned.

Well I did gave you the context of the verse (besides giving you five evidences for what I said); read again.

Until, when they arrive [at the place of Judgment], He will say, "Did you deny My signs while you encompassed them not in knowledge, or what [was it that] you were doing?" (27:84)

And the decree will befall them for the wrong they did, and they will not [be able to] speak. (27:85)

Do they not see that We made the night that they may rest therein and the day giving sight? Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. (27:86)

What will be the question that will be ask on the Day of Judgement?

‘Did you deny My signs’. And the following verses drawings attention to the signs. I don’t think so there is any disagreement on the fact that the verse 27:86 is not tied up to a certain day, is it?

I thought you would have addressed the evidence that I gave you.

a) The verse clearly speaks in the present tense and not in the future tense.

b) *To refer to the statements 'you think the mountains are stationary while they are moving’ '*to the future is impossible.

c) If the mountains are stationary today the humans would certainly see them to be stationary. It is not a question of their thinking them to be stationary. The Quran would have said 'You know them to be stationary and so they are but in future they will no longer be so'. This is not what the Quran says at all.

d) 27:86 talks about signs of God and so does 27:88.

e) How God ends the verse by saying "that is the handiwork of God, who perfected everything." That clause would have no relevance if the phenomenon in question happens only on one exceptional day.

Clearly for the observer on earth the guide is Sun.

Do you not see how your Lord lengthens the shadows? (25:49)

And who is being asked to observe?

Anyhow, my point was in connection to Surah al-Shams, where, according to hamza, the verse somehow reveals that earth is rotating. Clearly it’s a jump from being a mere observer on earth to 3-D scientific reality.

Surah ash-Shams, 1-4

**1. **By the sun and his brightness,
**2. **And the moon when she followeth him,
**3. **And the day when it revealeth him.
**4. **By the Night as it conceals it.

Surah Ash Shams starts with an oath and the oath is on the Sun. And Who is taking the Oath?

Which begs the question of how can the ‘orbit’ in its normal treatment be used for Night/Day?

I did answer your question about what the "orbit" of the day and night means. The consistent succession of day and night, by way of "takweer" which means that their succession is the result of a rotation of a ball.

[sNOVA]

Re: Cosmology And The Koran. Geocentric?

this is getting ridiculous now. If want to believe it that way about 27:88, you go ahead. But here is the translation by yusuf Ali :Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they **shall **pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do.

And here is the tafseer ( www.altafsir.com) . Verse 87 and 88 of the Surah Al-Namlh 27

(87)And the day when the Trumpet will be blown, the Horn [will be blown], the First Blast, by [the archangel] Isrāfīl, and whoever is in the heavens and the earth will be terrified, that is, a fright that brings about death — as is stated in another verse, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth will swoon [Q. 39:68] (the past tense [fazi‘a] is used to express the fact that such [events] will have occurred); except whom God will, namely, Gabriel, Michael, Isrāfīl and the Angel of Death. According to Ibn ‘Abbās, however, these [excepted individuals] are the martyrs who are [described as], living with their Lord, provided for [by Him]’ [Q. 3:169]. And all (kullun: the nunation compensates for the [missing] genitive annexation), in other words, and every one of them, after being brought back to life on the Day of Resurrection, will come to Him (read in the form of the verb [atawhu] or the active participle ātūhu]) in [utter] humility, humbled (the past tense, atawhu, is used to express the fact that this will have happened).

(88)And you see the mountains, you notice them, at the moment of the Blast, supposing them to be still, stationary in their place, because of their tremendous size, while they drift like passing clouds, [like the drifting of the] rain when it is blown around by the wind, in other words, they [the mountains] will be drifting in like manner until they [eventually] fall to the ground, whereby they are flattened before becoming like [tufts of] ‘wool’ [cf. Q. 101:5] and then ‘scattered dust’ [cf. Q. 56:6]. God’s handiwork (sun‘a, a verbal noun emphasising the import of the preceding sentence, and which has been annexed [in a genitive construction] to its agent [Allāhi, ‘God’] after the omission of its operator) Who has perfected everything, that He has made. Truly He is aware of what you do (taf‘alūna; or [read] yaf‘alūna, ‘[what] they do’), namely, His enemies, [what they do] in the way of disobedience, and His friends, in the way of obedience.

I dont see any rotating earth. Just standard godly procedure of annihilation.

[sNOVA]

Surah ash-Shams, 1-4

**1. **By the sun and his brightness, **2. **And the moon when she followeth him, **3. **And the day when it revealeth him. **4. **By the Night as it conceals it.

Surah Ash Shams starts with an oath and the oath is on the Sun. And Who is taking the Oath?

Allah is taking the oath. So why does it say the moon that followeth him? Clearly for the observer on the earth the moon follows the sun. And then all of the sudden there is a shift in the manner Allah is describing it and imparts scientific knowledge by saying " and the day when it revealeth him"? Day/night and sun/moon in the Koran are two distinct signs of Allah.

[USResident]

Salam

I completely agree with psyah and USresident that we do need define certain things more precisely to get a more congruous meaning of the entire matter. But I would like to add that I have some serious reservations about cherry-picking when it comes to proving through Koran or interpretations. We should not consider any single ayat in isolation. For example, Hamza and Shahmir123 have enthusiastically cited the verse 27:88 to support their theory that the Koran miraculously implies a rotating earth. “The mountains, firm as you make think them, will pass away like clouds…” Now the preceding the following verses are clearly devoted to the Day of Judgment. What shahmir123 and hamza did was that they ignored the context and interpreted it to suit their theory and completely discarded the fact that destruction is mentioned. In fact, elsewhere in the Koran, the annihilation of the mountains is mentioned again and it’s noteworthy that the context is Day of Judgment. “They ask you about the mountains. Say: ‘My Lord will crush them to fine dust and reduce them to a desolate waste…..” 20:105. My point is that there is this intractable (which is really frustrating) tendency of some people to be swayed by emotions or whatever in proving the ‘miracle’ even when there is none or interpreting the verse in a particular way. What it does is that it makes the author less credible and even forces you to look at ayats in a certain way.

Brother, the context of the last part of verse 40 is not 37 but clearly the first part of verse 40 itself. The sun does not overtake the moon NOR does the night overtake the day. In essence, its simply referring to the obvious fact that day and night cannot happen at the same time, each has its own time and neither can contravene.

We would love to see it that way but we cannot. The following hadith of the prophet(s) will be more insightful.* “Narrated Abu Dharr: *The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" I don’t see how what you said, negates what I said. Clearly for the observer on earth the guide is Sun. “Had He willed he would have made them constant. But we make make the sun their guide…” Notice the words ‘constant’ and ‘sun’ clearly implying a connection between the movement of the sun and the length of the shadow. This is all true only with relevance to the observer on earth. But I’m taking the liberty to assume that when Koran deals with matters of the sun and the moon, they are not meant to be scientifically accurate.

Anyhow, my point was in connection to Surah al-Shams, where, according to hamza, the verse somehow reveals that earth is rotating. Clearly it’s a jump from being a mere observer on earth to 3-D scientific reality. Before that, it’s important to note that Koran regularly mentions Day/Night and Sun/Moon separately. Take the verse 14:33 for example: “…..He has subdued for you the sun and the moon, which steadfastly pursue their courses. And He has subdued for you the night and the day”. In other words, Night/Day and Sun/Moon are two distinct signs of Allah. Other verses will reveal a similar pattern. So when the verse 91:33 reads “by the day, which reveals his splendor: by the night, which veils him” it’s simply a continuation of the Koranic tone to describe the signs of Allah. Well that might even explain the ambiguous word ‘orbit’. Since the Sun/Moon and Day/Night are never mentioned in the Koran (as far as I know) in a way to imply causality the word ‘orbit’ can make more sense, especially when the word ‘KULL’ is mentioned

Take the verse 21:33 here: “It was He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon: each moves swiftly in an orbit of its own” Again the word “kullun-fii falakin yasbahun” is used. And yet again in the verse 31:29 “ Do you see how God causes the night and day to pass into the day and the day to pass into the night and has pressed the sun and the moon into His service, each (kullun) running (yajrii) for an appointed term” Apparently it does seem that Kullun refers to day/night and sun/moon, which begs the question of how can the ‘orbit’ in its normal treatment be used for Night/Day? If the Arabic language accommodates a more vast meaning of orbit, something like a ‘cycle’ then it will solve the problem. So what do you think?

Its the hadith that has a very confusing tone. When taking the ayat and the hadith in conjunction the only understanding I can come to is that Allah SWT has created the suns orbit (or routine) as such to rise from the east and set in the west for an appointed term i.e. till the beginning of the day of judgement, this is when its fixed term comes to an end and it breaks its orbit (or normal routine).

So far I am still of the opinion that orbit has been used in the general sense of a cyclical routine and not a celestial orbit though it holds true in certain cases but the audience at the time could not have comprehended such a thing.

More specifically the night and day are manifestations of the rotational movements of the earth along its axis. Is the earths axial rotation considered orbital motion though today?