Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Sir Hadees is very much safe too Muslims have worked very hard to safe the great treasurer of Hadees

62

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

1) We must look into Quran to see if there are any guidelines on the topic at hand and then we should jump on to other sources. There are many verses on this topic that directly or indirectly tells us that apostasy is matter pertaining solely to Allah Himself and people cannot judge and kill people based on this sin.

2) There is no incident where the holy prophet (pbuh) ordered to kill someone solely because he changed his religion from Islam to something else.

3) The hadiths quoted are unreliable as
a) there is just one narrator (Abdullah, ikrimah), no chain of narrators
b) Ikrimah was a khariji and anti-hazrat Ali (ra). many have commented negatively on his reliability and credibility
c) these hadith lie in exact contradiction to what Quran teaches

4) Killing an Apostate is not an original Islamic law. It is Khariji law or most recently, a maudodian law

5) Terms of sulah-e-Hudaibiah are in contradiction to this maudodian law. If it were a law by Allah, holy prophet (pbuh) could never have gone against it. Pls recall your mind to the incident of theft by a woman named fatima during the life-time of the holy prophet (pbuh). Despite intercession by some sahabas, our holy prophet (pbuh) had her hand cut as per Islamic shariah and didn't show any relaxation.

6) Using Terror tactics to stop someone from leaving his religion had been methods employed by enemies of prophets not otherwise

7) If you threaten someone with death, he will most certainly choose to save his life and show off as still being a muslim but will not be a muslim at heart. Don't you think this methodology will bread 'Munafeqeen'

more later

63

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Sir their are cases in which HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW has ordered murder for people for leaving Islam and it is not an Kharjian Law it is a law applied by HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW himself

64

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Evidence from the holy Quran

[QUOTE]

88:22) Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher;

88:23) You are not a watcher over them;
88:24) But whoever turns back and disbelieves,
88:25) Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
88:26) Unto us, surely, is their return
88:27) Then surely, it is for us to call them to account

[/QUOTE]

What could be more clearer than the above verses. They are pretty much self-explanatory.

[QUOTE]

5:93) And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and be on your guard. But if you turn away, then know that on Our Messenger lies only the clear conveyance of the Message.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

10:100) And if thy Lord had enforced His will, surely, all who are on the earth would have believed together. Wilt thou, then, force men to become believers?

[/QUOTE]

65

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Please read craefully what u wrote urself ..... i quote u ..... "There is no compulsion in religion." I fully understand and agree with the translation ..... yet ur interpretation bro this ayat means "u cannot force anyone to accept islam" !! ..... where u find something meaning/mentioning Islam in this Ayat ????? It says "DEEN" and not Islam ..... ur DEEN might be Islam yet there r billions of PPL on the surface of this Earth whose DEEN isn't Islam ..... please don't mix up the Quarinc wording with ur interpretation ......

Islam isn't about forcing anyone into or out of something ...... Islam gives u tools and it shows u a path which might lead to Allah SWT ..... u or me as person r in no position to force anyone onto or away from this path ...... Have u ever asked urself why many Ayats in the Holy Quran begin with "O' ye believers ....." This Divine words speaks to those who believe ..... u know the first word of the Holy Quran that Hazrat Gibrael taught Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW was "Iqra'a" meaning READ and surely it wasn't DO

So let PPL READ and then DO what they see Fit ..... it's Allah SWT who'll be the Judge

66

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Dear 1 ummah.

If a child that is born in to a Muslim family cannot choose Islam versus any other religion - just because he was born into a Muslim household - implies that there is compulsion in religion. At least the way you interpret it.

67

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

forcing a child to follow the religion of their parents is almost like child abuse to me.

68

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Mukobahi, I would need to see references on that. From what I remember about Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. a lady used to throw trash at him whenever he used to pass by her street. Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H never ordered any punishment for her, infact this one day when he walked by her street and he did not throw stones at him Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. inquired about her. When he found out she is sick, he went for her ayadat. She liked this gesture of Him so much that she accepted islam. These are the teachings of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H.

69

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Ali these incidents happened in MAKKAH in MAKKAH Jihad was not made farz and muslims were not allowed to hit back when muslims migrated to madinah who ever insulted PROPHET SAW was killed and Homosexuality is a crime in Islam and its punishment is death

70

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Please give references before making such statements. I think you missed the purpose of my prevoius reply. It was the Akhlaq (good character) of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. which attracted people towards islam.

71

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Sir it was not just about Akhlaq HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW had many enemies to what do you he didn't showed akhlaq to them sir Abusing of PROPHET SAW can't be tolerated in the name of Akhlaq that is why many people were killed for blashmey when Jihad was made farz one was a prisoner who was killed he was take prisoner in Battle of Badar but on the way to madina he was killed because he used to throw the body parts of camel on the back of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW when he used to pray in KABAH

72

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

So are you saying the incident I quoted is dhaeef???? I have asked numerous times to give references ... You keep making statments one after and another without any reference.

73

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Sir read my posts again the incident you quoted too place in MAKKAH at that time Jihad was not made farz and Muslims were not allowed to hit back that is why all who did blashmey were forgiven

74

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

i cant re-call the verse from Quran but it goes something like " if one believes, the disbelieves, then believes and disbelieves, and then continue to disbelieve, hes the loser " so in other words, one who disbelieves and then continue to disbelieve in a sense that he starts to go against Islam by writing books attacking Islam, cursing Prophet Muhammad PBUH etc, then it needs to be stopped in its appropriate way ( no, killing is not wat im talking about ). But, if one leaves Islam and does not say anything against Islam or the holy figures of Islam then He is free to do so. Allah is the ultimate judge as is said many many times in Quranic verses.

If a muslim who decide to no longer remain a muslim should be killed in an islamic state, then do u think the same should be done in western countries? that is, kill whoever becomes muslim ? If Muslims get the same rights as non muslims in western countries... are allowed to build mosques, dress however they wish etc, why cant the same rights be given to non muslims in muslim countries? why do we have double standards ?

75

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

It is important to show respect to the holiest prophet Muhammad PBUH. No doubt in that. However, what you forget is that He (SAW) came to humankind for the sake of Allah. To spread the word of Allah. To tell the world that Allah is the one who people should ask for help. Why is it that we show too much respect to "JUST" the name of prophet Muhammad PBUH and give no thoughts of what He actually said.

There was an incident when prophet Muhammad PBUH was hiding with his companions and enemies came to find Muhammad PBUH to kill Him. They chanted something against Muhammad PBUH, and Muhammad PBUH along with all the companions stayed quiet. The enemies then chanted something against Allah and at that time, Prophet Muhammad (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon Him always ) said ..o you believers, why do you not speak up now ?

So, point is, Muhammad PBUH did NOT care about his status to be on stake but he used to get mad and anxious about anyone saying anything against Allah.

So, yeah, do respect Muhammad PBUH , but do more of what Muhammad PBUH himself wanted believers to do, that is respect Allah and respect what Allah has to say about certain things.

Do not put a question mark where Allah puts a period. Learn Quran and understand it better with the hadith that are in favor of Quran and not give preference to those ahadith which create chaos in the world and have nothing to do with Quran at all.

76

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Sir firs off all Hadees don't create chaos sir their are many incidents in which who did blashmey were killed and I have read Quran lot of times so and still reading every day so don't tell me you first check it yourself

77

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

yes according to islam any muslim who changes his religion is wajib-ul-qatal...however it is said that the person will be punished by god rather than the people. there are different rulings to it.

i dont know if the hudood ordinance applies to anyone in pakistan.

78

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

If the Qur'an doesn't make you wajib ul qatl for leaving Islam, then there can be NO Hadith which welcomes such kind of punishment. Period. Plus, the people who were killed for leaving Islam were real hypocrites, mocking at Islam, creating havoc. If God is SOOOOOOO merciful how can a simple man come and kill you or get an order from God to kill you for leaving Islam?

79

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

I had heard about Ghmadi before - but only now had a chance to read some articles from his organization which are based on his Urdu books. The following link deals with apostasy - and does not prescribe a punishment. I think I have found a new hero.

http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/questions_english_detail.php?qid=408&cid=301

80

Re: Converting out of Islam - in Pakistan

Yes, there were instances where hazrat muhammad(pbuh) ordered killing of certain people especially after the conquest of Makkah, he(pbuh) ordered to kill listed 10 people even if they are found seeking refuge clutching the drapes of Kaaba. This incident is quite often quoted by the advocates of death penalty for apostates. I think you know that many of the 10 named condemned men were pardoned. You will not find it anywhere that the holy prophet(pbuh) ordered to apprehend them and gave them three days to come back to Islam. That never happened. The fact of the matter is that those people were condemned to death because of their atrocities against muslims and they sided with kuffar etc. and not just because they left Islam. Holy prophet (pbuh) PARDONED most of them for instance, Abdullah bin abi sarh was among the ten condemned men. He used to be a scribe of the holy prophet(pbuh). later, he apostatized and joined the non-believers. After his death sentence, hazrat Usman(ra) requested for his pardon and the holy prophet(pbuh) granted his pardon. Had it been a law to kill apostates, how could prophet (pbuh) had gone against this law on someone's request.