Conversion back to Hinduism

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Yes, those people have a better chance of going to Paradise as long as they died as Muslims. And Mother Teresa has no chance if she died as a non muslim. The keyword is if they actually died in that state, but I don't know and you don't know whether they actually did die that way. There's also a Hadith which talks about Muslims doing things to show off, they will also be in Hell. And again we don't know which Muslim is trying to show off and which Muslim is actually doing the acts for the sake of God. Because we don't know what is in the hearts, we only know what is apparent from the actions. Whatever is in the hearts will be dealt with by God.

On the other hand, do you even know how many types of shirk there are?
Shirk just isn't making an idol and worshipping it or believing Jesus is the son of God or something like that. Shirk can be obeying someone other than God, or loving someone the same as or more than God. Shirk can be giving someone or something the status of God or giving God the status of something that is created.
Take an atheist for example who denies God's very existence. When the atheist meets God, what rights does the atheist have in front of God. Absolutely nothing, so why should God reward the atheist since he denied God's existence?
Similarly we know from the Quran that the purpose of creation is to worship God. How would you expect God to reward you when you didn't even call out to Him because you were busy calling out (worshipping) something else?

The Messengers were sent by God to give everyone a chance because no one would be able to say that I didn't receive the Message. God Himself is not going to come down to earth and show Himself to everyone, and neither is He going to give revelation to everyone. Because if He wanted everyone to become Muslim, He could have made everyone Muslim. But rather He has created life and death to test which one of us excels in doing good and to worship Him alone.
If you truly realize that God alone must be worshipped, then you will also realize that Islam is the only religion that promotes worship only to God.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

SherAfghan and USR, JazakAllaah khair.
Allaah u Akbar.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

How conveniently you ignored the rest of the post. It is also the moderate non-muslims role to listen and comprehend what the moderate muslim is saying and stop monkeying on the backs of the so-called extremists then.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Brother, here lies the faultline.

As a resident of a muslim dominated city in India, I have grown up with both moderate and extremist(read true) muslims.

I may hurt, but its a reality we have to realize.

We have family relations with so many muslim families. I remember my father telling us, see how good muslims are, how nice they are to us. And rightly so. I never felt any feeling in my childhood that I m among a family whose religion have that much extremist views about mushriks, that we hindus are. I remember a muslim family even arranging for a certain puja for my mom while we were visiting them.

It was only later when I grew up, and I saw rise of extremist islam in my country and joined company of some extremist elements and exchanged views with them, that I realised that the muslims I loved from my childhood were not real muslims at all. Many times they transgressed the limits in my views set by ALLAH for them in holy quran.

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****003.028. **Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from God: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to God.

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****004.139. **Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God.

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****004.144. **O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?

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****005.051. **O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

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So brother, where is role of moderate muslim in Islam? If we can see what real islam is, we must go back to ppls like OBL and TALIBS, who follow the command of ALLAH without any kind of hypocrity, coz they believe by heart. I never regard OBL as terroist, for me he is just an innocent man and whatever he is doing is coz he believes that ALLAH wants him to do, he is a multi billionere and can live a peacefull with all worldly joy available to him, like most western muslims are living, but he opted to live in isolation, and in most unfavourable conditions just because of his faith.

Brother there is only one Islam, thats real Islam, and its not moderate.

for example if today someone is caught stealing in a muslim country than most of moderate muslim will advocate for mercy for him, but is that right??? no, according to rule of ALLAH he should be amputated and no one should feel sense of compassion towards him. Thats like following the commands of ALLAH.

Thanks.********

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

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Yes, those people have a better chance of going to Paradise as long as they died as Muslims. And Mother Teresa has no chance if she died as a non muslim. The keyword is if they actually died in that state, but I don't know and you don't know whether they actually did die that way. There's also a Hadith which talks about Muslims doing things to show off, they will also be in Hell. And again we don't know which Muslim is trying to show off and which Muslim is actually doing the acts for the sake of God. Because we don't know what is in the hearts, we only know what is apparent from the actions. Whatever is in the hearts will be dealt with by God.

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Brother, I respect ur belief and views, but I wont subscribe to it in any circumstance. If Mother Teresa will go to hell just coz she died as a non muslim, than hell is the best place for me.

There is also a hadith which tells us that out of all the sects muslims have created for themselves, only one sect will be landing in paradise, where rest of all will find themselves is not hard to guess. So there are fair chances that I will be meeting most of my muslim friends in hell coz they belong to different sects offcourse.

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Similarly we know from the Quran that the purpose of creation is to worship God. How would you expect God to reward you when you didn't even call out to Him because you were busy calling out (worshipping) something else?

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Brother again Mother Teresa comes into picture. She devoted most of her time serving the ppls we wont like to touch even, while good muslims devote most of time praying to ALLAH. If U come to my country U can see that inspite of being a very small minority, christians are doing service to humankind in litrally each and every place, while muslims lag way behind them in this regard, maybe coz they dont find enough time to serve those who need them. maybe coz prayers and other religious riutals dong give them enough time and they dont want to spoil their chance of making it to paradise, and best way is to worship worship and worship.

So U remember recent disaster like Tsunami, and Earthquake? Although all these disaster struck muslim dominated areas, still we saw less muslim presence as compared to their christian counterparts in relief and rehabilitation work. So is religion for humanity or humanity for religion? this is big question for today.

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The Messengers were sent by God to give everyone a chance because no one would be able to say that I didn't receive the Message. God Himself is not going to come down to earth and show Himself to everyone, and neither is He going to give revelation to everyone. Because if He wanted everyone to become Muslim, He could have made everyone Muslim. But rather He has created life and death to test which one of us excels in doing good and to worship Him alone.

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Brother I could have believed what U say, but practically I have seen that those who believe in message and messenger are not found to be good for humankind as compared to those who didnt believe and made their own laws. I have some muslim friend in Europian countries, they dont hesitate in saying that the society that holy quran promises can be seen in Europian countries today. Here lies faultline for me, coz the laws those countries follow are just opposite what holy quran prescribes. To me its complete failure of message, and even worse is that muslims themselves have proven that laws of the message is not good for themselves coz they have willingly written their own laws and have substituted them with laws of holy quran, almost in all muslim countries. So when muslims can do mere lip service in regarding holy quran as a book from ALLAH than whats a big deal that a kafir like myself dont believe???

Thanks

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Well brother, I dont know much about the books of Aqeedah, neither I have studied one. But my own Aqidah in ALLAH is very much influenced by Deobandi School of thought, some calll them Wahabis too but I dont know that much.

And brother, as far as evidence is concerned, I have given that I feel is unchallangable evidence in support of my comments for them. Moreover I have never blamed any individual to be munafiq.

Thanks

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Thanks for ur nice words for me brother, I value it a lot. Yes U have answered me regarding my doubt on Mother Teresa, but I dont find ur answer very much convincing coz of my personal image I have of ALLAH. So I give myself freedom of repeating same question again and again (to different ppls) till I get the answer which is convincing for me.

As far as the challange of ALLAH regarding making a verse similar to holy quran is concerned, I find myself totally unable for this unholy job coz I m absolutely illitrate in Arabic myself.

The bottomline is this brother, I personally feel that holy quran has proven a failure in giving a good society to humankind, those who are good human beings are ignoring its laws like anything.............those who are following its laws without any hypocricy are turning out to be likes of OBL and TALIBS. This is enough reason for me to believe that holy quran despite being the best book on earth is definetely not word of ALLAH.

Moreover its duty of muslims to show to the world that holy quran is book of ALLAH, and Islam HIS own religion, so it has to be the best, and they can do it easily only if they have true faith. Why not follow its laws and make even a single good society on earth??? After all ALLAH has blessed muslim with so many indepndent countries??? where is the problem??? Any answer or excuse brother???

Thanks

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I thought I'd clarify one is an act of shirk, whereas the other is a sin and could be categorized as something else, but I haven't seen riba being categorized as shirk.

In this particular instance I'm referring "shirk" to as associating partners or invoking someone other than Allah (SWT) in worship.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I did request you to forget about figures, such as OBL, mother teresa, or zarqawi. My question was is Quran the word of Allaah. But you have answered, in negative for taking up the challenge. But use a term 'Quran is a failure'.

Thats one reason, i asked you to prove the Quran wrong, again your looking at an individual and declaring your verdict on this. Indeed this post of yours was illogical.Because the Human is a failure, and Quran is not, if you cant challenge the Quran, then accept you cant call the word of Allaah good or bad.

Let me tell you the challenge of the Quran, is not been met for 1400 years, but people are ready to point fingers on it. I wonder how individuals are converting to Islam and there is been a meteoric rise after 9/11. Believe me the ones who convert truely follow the religion of Allaah and the speech of Allaah thats Quran.

Tell me if the muslims dont follow the Quran, will you then deny that its not the word of Allaah, basing your argument on tht factor is untenable. So its better before using a derogatory term Quran is a failure, prove the Quran wrong and that can only be done by proving its not the speech of Allaah. Hope you get my drift.

Once you can challenge that its not from Allaah then let me go ahead, with the authenticity of the Quran. *But if Quran is from Allaah then he knows what is good and bad for his creation, since Allaah is the creator. *

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Well, you claim to have an understanding of Islamic Aqeedah and you haven't studied any books on the topic and on top of that you claim to know the difference between Islam and Kufr.
I don't know what to say.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism


What can I say, you have indirectly declared that humans take priority over God, this is shirk. I suppose that's why you are not a muslim.


I wonder if you have looked for the explanation for this hadith. It starts off by saying that Jews had 71 sects, Christians had 72 and Muslims will have 73 and only one will be correct. There are two lessons in this hadith. One, Muslims will make the same mistakes as those made by the previous nations. There is enough evidence of this today. Two, the saved sect will be a minority because 1/73 is a very small number. Again, there is also enough evidence of this today. And you have claimed yourself that most of the Muslims today are "munafiqeen".
There is also the Hadith from Sahih Muslim that Islam started as something strange and will return to being strange so blessed are the strangers.
This again shows that Muslims will be like strangers.


As you have claimed earlier that most of the muslims are "munafiqeen", then you shouldn't equate the actions of the majority of the muslims with Islam.
We as Muslims try to do everything for the sake of God, and those muslims who do humanitarian work for the sake of Allah don't intend to have their photos published on the front page, instead they seek reward from Him.
If you just google for Islamic charities you will come across lots of ongoing projects around the world organized by muslims.
As you must know already, the obligation on muslims after prayer is of obligatory charity. And giving this charity and distributing it is in itself an act of worship, because doing so means obeying God's commands. Also, on days of Eid we have to remember the poor and the needy. For Eid ul Fitr it is an obligation on all muslims to provide for the poor so that they can also celebrate the day of Eid. And for Eid ul Adha, those who sacrifice an animal are to distribute 1/3 of the meat to the poor, and the other 1/3 to their neighbours. If one does all of this with the intention of obeying God's commands, then they have worshipped God.
The english word worship does not do justice to the arabic word Ibadah which is translated as worship.


The problem here is that those who are born into Muslim families, they take Islam for granted. And the converts have an upper hand in this case because they get to learn Islam from scratch. A lot of born Muslims today don't know some of the basic things about Islam. And your claim about the majority being "munafiqeen" is an evidence of this yet again.
Besides, Islam is being kept at bay by certain governments. I remember reading that one writer who interviewed some top officials of the CIA said that some Islamic scholars are on their payroll. All efforts are being exerted to keep Islam from emerging.
And their's Musharraf's enlightened moderation crap, etc., etc.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Unfortunately, the moderate Muslims voice has been drowned by extremist Islam the world over. Maybe you guys need to raise your voice a bit :)

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

^hows that good for ratings?

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

All that you have mentioned is mostly true and I agree to alomost all fo that if there was a definet evidence of God's existence.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

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did request you to forget about figures, such as OBL, mother teresa, or zarqawi. My question was is Quran the word of Allaah. But you have answered, in negative for taking up the challenge. But use a term 'Quran is a failure'.
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Brother I have answered in negative regarding making a surah just like holy quran, its just like myself asking u to produce a shloka like BhagvadGita, or Vedas. I m trying to give u another logic that WHY I FEEL that holy quran is not words of ALLAH. BTW someone had provided a link from some anti islamic site in another forum, where there were some verses written in Arabic, with a question that how these verses are not like holy quran. But that kind of biased sites which has only one side on their coin have never attrected me, but if U require them, I can provide U the link.

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Thats one reason, i asked you to prove the Quran wrong, again your looking at an individual and declaring your verdict on this. Indeed this post of yours was illogical.Because the Human is a failure, and Quran is not, if you cant challenge the Quran, then accept you cant call the word of Allaah good or bad.

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Brother, Here i emphasize my point of view that I regard holy quran as best book, and its laws best bet for a good society. But I must add that these laws are absolutely unpractical and doesnt suit the human nature. in my views laws are good only when they are confined to book itself, once U implement it practically, than it may bring havoc on the humans it has been imposed on. Thats the only reason laws have not been implemented in litrally any country except for one. Plz correct ur mistake that I have called words of ALLAH as bad, nowhere u can find any such quote in my posts.

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Let me tell you the challenge of the Quran, is not been met for 1400 years, but people are ready to point fingers on it. I wonder how individuals are converting to Islam and there is been a meteoric rise after 9/11. Believe me the ones who convert truely follow the religion of Allaah and the speech of Allaah thats Quran
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Its very good to know that those who convert truely follow words of ALLAH thats holy quran, I have no problem in believing U brother. Lets hope that we see a society soon that laws of ALLAH promises to build. AMEEN.

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Tell me if the muslims dont follow the Quran, will you then deny that its not the word of Allaah, basing your argument on tht factor is untenable. So its better before using a derogatory term Quran is a failure, prove the Quran wrong and that can only be done by proving its not the speech of Allaah. Hope you get my drift.

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Brother see, today only 1 out of every 5 ppls around U claims to believe that holy quran is word of ALLAH, rest dont buy this belief. So plz dont consider me denying it as words of ALLAH as derogarory, its just my point of view. And I dont base my opinion on muslims not following the holy book. Now if u want me to eleborate further, than I have to go back to ayahs of holy quran which needs justification. To start with can u plz explain the wisdome behind the ayahs I mentioned in my recent post of this thread??? I feel that ALLAH cant tell muslims not to make friend among kuffar and mushrikeen, and christians and jews. Now if U feel that indeed ALLAH can give such orders than U plz eleborate and reason the commands. And also tell me how the world will look like if ALLAH's commands are really followed????

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Once you can challenge that its not from Allaah then let me go ahead, with the authenticity of the Quran. But if Quran is from Allaah then he knows what is good and bad for his creation, since Allaah is the creator
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Brother plz dont take it as my challange, I dont challange anything. I never claim that I m authority on any subject, what I claim that these are just my views and belief, it may be wrong too, coz its only ALLAH who is ALIM. and HE** only knows all.**

Thanks

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Brother I believe that Islamic Aqidah is most simple one, ALLAH is only worthy of worship, holy quran is HIS laws he has given for humankind, The holy prophet is HIS messenger, and on the day of judgement HE will reward each creation according to his or her deeds.

Plus there has never been any authentic religion except Islam, all the messengers from Adam to the holy prophet were messengers of Islam.

Why U think this needs some books to study????

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

You Just Humane there is only one argument to defeat all you above post.
You told you cant challenge the Quran in Arabic, because you are an illiterate in Arabic.

Do you know our Dear Prophet sala Allaahu alahiwasallam, was an unlettered Prophet. If you can believe the other verses of the Quran, you have to believe in this verse of the Quran.

Do you get my drift, great poets at that time Labid Ibn Rabiah just google for his The Golden Ode, when he recited a poem the whole of Arabs prostrated in front of him. But later after Quran came, he completely agree his poetry is zero compared to Quran.

Well they were great Poets the Arabs were at the zenith of Arabic during that time, but couldnt defeat a Unlettered man. Well Al Mughira a staunch enemy of Islam, and a poet agreed that Quranic poetry was far more eloquent.

Why do you think the Mushriks attacked Prophet though they had the best of poets with them. I want an answer for this question.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I am not surprised by your comments. I do see a lot of disillusionment though and apparently for just reasons. As I had said before somehwere in these posts, Muslims have not done a good job of carrying on their religion thus far, there is no denying that. Since I do not have the tafsir with me right now I will not comment in detail on the verses you had quoted however what I will say that the concept of a friend today is much different from what it was when Islam was revealed. The verses you quoted though sound very general in nature but were revealed under certain circumstances. One needs to study the circumstances that existed for the muslims before objecting to those verses. I also see the comparisons you have drawn by mentioning people like OBL, this is the irony. These people follow what is in the Quran no doubt but not with an understanding of the context of which it was revealed. Many scholars (this is my personal opnion) today use Quranic verses generally, which has caused many twisted interpretations nowadays. Let us not forget, Quran was not revealed as a book to the messenger SAW but rather through a course of events that happened in the 23 year period of prophethood. This is why I say without reading the meaning of these verses in their revelational context is wrong and should not generalized. I will Inshallah reply again detailing more on the contextual situation of these verses but as I mentioned I don't have the tafsir in front of me now so this will have to wait. I apologize for the delay.

One thing I can easily tell from your post is you only read the verses from someone elses article or from some website, which is meant to defame Islam. If you had read Quran in entirety you would have known that their are verses which require a muslim to be just and honest toward a non-muslim. Now this being said would appear as a contradiction to the verses you quoted. This contradiction only arises from the actions of those people i.e. OBL type, who take them and generalize them. There is no contradiction here if you view the verses in the proper context when muslims were at war with non-believers and non-muslims of that time were conspiring to kill and hurt muslims. Now put in that context tell me would you accept any of those non-believers as friends. Someone who has turned against your religion to the extent that they will torture you and kill you for proclaiming to be a muslim, can such a person be your friend. Would you be confortable to take such a person in your house as a friend? This is where we draw the line. I do not detest you for your understanding because you are not a muslim and you have certainly not read or studied Quran and Sunnah so you would definitely extract conclusions from the little knowledge you have. This is where muslims should explain the proper aspect of these things, and as I said they have done a miserable job in doing so. And those who try, their efforts are overshadowed by the warped and hyped actions of people like OBL.

So I would definitely take you as a friend provided you were not there trying to attack me for being a muslim. Yes, you are welcome to present your religous opinions based on what you believe and try to convince me. However this should not be in a way where is disrupts the harmony of a muslim community either or becomes confrontational with a muslim and vice versa for a muslim.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Aqeedah is based on the six pillars of Iman, this is from the hadith when Jibraeel alaihisalaam questioned Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam.
1. Belief in there is nothing worthy of worship except Allah, 2. Belief in All the Messengers that were sent by Allah, 3. Belief in All the Books that were given to the Messengers, 4. Belief in the Angels, 5. Belief in the Day of Judgement, 6. Belief in Divine Decree

These 6 pillars have sub categories.
Also, There's a difference between saying La ilaha ilaAllah and truly understanding what it means. That's why books have been written on Aqeedah and on Tawheed. The most widely accepted book on Aqeedah is by Imam Tahawi.

And I don't mean to rub it in, but I have to say this that if the Aqeedah was that simple, then you wouldn't see a lot of "munafiqeen" amongst the Muslims.

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

mujay aik baat batain jo banda hud kai sath bomb bandh kai kesi goray ko katal karta hai kya woh ghalat karta hai?