Conversion back to Hinduism

Society Religion & Philosophy
201

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

exactly, in india is does not matter that u are a hindu or a muslim, or even if u change the relegion, do one gives a damn because ppl are busy in their own jobs and works, no one cares, there are many examples of ppl who converted from islam to hinduism and also, many ppl like A.R. Rehman, the musician, converted from hinduism to islam. no one cares why. india respects all the relegions. tabhi toh wo deesh aaj itna aagey hai

202

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Justahumane, in the entire debate I just wanted you to ask me when I claim Quran is from Allaah, you shud have asked me straight away prove it. Period.
If your ready I shall go ahead with it, let me tell you if we gotta have a sound debate then knowledge is most important otherwise we are just wasting our time. I am blaming myself here too.
If I have to objective towards my questions you have, then you have to start from the foundation. I cant teach you calculus withouth knowing addition and subtraction. I feel, if anyones interested they would surely try start from the basics.
Insha Allaah once you ask me for it, I shall go ahead.

203

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Brother US Resident, U have attributed quotes of HaHaHa to me in ur post #195, plz correct ur mistake to avoid confusion. thanks

204

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Okay, I ask U to come forward with ur evidences. But plz give me freedom to weigh ur claims according to my own understanding and not urs.

Thanks

205

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Sure your welcome for it. Insha Allaah i will surely put it across but some time late coz. Kyun ki aaj thursday hai to thoda goomne woomne jayenge. Catch you later.

206

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

OK, I ask you to prove it.

And I assure you that I would not analyze your reply because the rules of this forum do not allow to attack the core issues related to Islam.

207

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

No problem brother, apna Thursday enjoy kijiye. Have a great time.

208

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I am waiting for the proof too. Take ur time and come up with a good one.. :D.
I may be prejudicing but in my opinion there is no way any religion can prove that its the word of God, since u want to prove something for which there is no real proof. Any proof will always start with an assuption that there is a proof for God.
What I think is rather than a proof people come up with an excuse to believe in God. Well actually I do the same.:)

209

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I think if you present bullet points of why you think Quran is not Allahs message would be easier to follow then.


*

Actually I never claimed it to be a law, I explained why I think many people extract incorrect meanings from the Quranic verses i.e. they study it out of context and miss out the principle or wisdom embedded in the verse when read under its proper context. Even if a muslim is adamant on taking it for face value and not befriending non-muslims (and I have such freinds) he still should not be a threat to you as long as he follows the other verses of Quran as well. There is nothing that stops him from being just and honest towards you without being a friend. Many people in the world enjoy a momentary honest relationship without ever befriending. If someone is not your friend, in what way does it harm you as long as he is not your enemy. Further more, if you would clarify what you consider friendship that would put this discussion in its proper context because friendship is a broad word in todays terminology and people make friends in different categories (including myself). There is difference between a relationship and friendship. What if a person does not want to be a friend with you on basis on something else other than religion, will you object to that as well. To be friends there must be some common ground. Until and unless we acknowledge some common ground, you cannot move ahead otherwise you will be making enemies out of each other. In such a case better to avoid making an enemy and be acquainted as strangers, would you agree?

Our criteria for differentiation is based on your belief on Allah SWT (no matter how many other denominations arise under the word of a non-muslim I differentiate based on whether you believe Allah SWT last message and prophet or not regardless of how far you may take this generalization). Every nation, person, religion, government has criterion for anything they do. I think your a little carried away here, not being friends in no way means to be at war. If you become hostile to a muslim then it is war. Just because you are a non-muslim (one who does not believe what muslims believe) does mean I am at war with you. To me you are someone who is unaware of the truth and I should convey it to you. Whether you accept or not is upto you because judgement reckons with Allah SWT not us. I do not see any transgression if the non-muslim is acting hostile towards our beliefs. Again what is the meaning of FRIEND, it seems to me like not being a friend is a BAD WORD, which is not true. even the word friendship is subject to the context under which it is used i.e. business friends, family friends, girl friend, boy friend etc. You are not clear about what you want to make out of the word itself and are arguing just because it says don't be friends, you are completely ignoring the context of friendship.

Secular law permits them to do so, so they are doing it. If it were to outlaw it then we would be only doing it in our masjids or through personal dialogues. Sorry! But we are not going to change our Laws because someone does not like it. There are laws for things, in Islam you cannot publicly propagate another religion, simple. Like it or leave it. If you are a muslim I would do my utmost to prevent you from leaving the deen because it would earn you a VIP seat in hell. If you had felt so strongly about being on the right path I am sure you would do the samething. Everyone takes measures to protect their interests, do they not. There are no double standards here, a muslim in a non-muslim country is bound by the laws of that country, if its laws allow to publicly propagate religion, then why shouldn't a muslim use that right. Just because a secular country has such a law, it does not mean we should start changing Islamic laws to make others happy.

Brother, I am not Dr. Zakir Naik so I cannot answer in his stead either. If there is something about him you refute then address it to him. I am not ignoring your questions, you are just not hearing the answer you lwant to hear, which is why you keep asking the questions repeatedly. You are looking for answers, which will morph Islam into another religion of your choosing.

210

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Oops! Sowie, wonder how I did that.

211

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Okay brother, here we go.

As a father, I love my child. As a good father, I must know what is good or what is bad for him. I cant put a gun in his hands and say son it will defend U from enemies. I must be aware that he may harm himself with the gun.

Same goes with ALLAH, we cant doubt that he knows the nature of his creations. He must be knowing that his creations are not going to follow his commands, but his commands may be used to settle scores with one’s enemy. as we are seeing today. Some ayahs of holy quran gives enough temptation to shaitan inside us to come out in open and play the game of relilgion and hatred.

I can give u solid proof if only U are unbiased enough to understnd.

Jihad in Iraq, Afganistan, Palestine, Kashmir etc is on full swing. Ask a pro jihadi muslim and he will give u reference from holy quran and sunnah that why jihad is fard in such circumstances when Ummah is in danger. If he is a bit more passionate, he may call u a munafiq if U are against all this bloodshed in the name of jihad, there are pleanty of ayahs in holy quran which condems those who rejected the call of jihad and chose to sit back at home inspite of fighting. So ALLAH is happy only if u wage jihad against mushrikeen.

Now lets see the another side of this holy coin. There is a place where ove 400,000 muslims have been massacred, over 2.5 millions have been displaced, and that too by muslims themselves ironically. Ever heard jihad call from any Friday sermon agaisnt those Janjaweeds who are killing their bretherns in Darfur region of Sudan???

http://www.genocideintervention.net/educate/darfurinfo/

Can any other community except community of believer do the sin of this magnitude?? I think no way, only muslims can do this, coz they only believe in divine message thats holy quran. Sinners are those who are killing those poor black african muslims, and greater sinners are those who sit back in their homes and justify war and suicide bombings in Kashmir, Israil, Iraq and Afganistan. Brother believe me or not, all this happening only coz some ayahs are present in holy quran justifying killing of mushrikeen. Now u can show me other ayahs which declares killing as the biggest sin, but its of no use, coz human nature is cunning enough to ignore the good laws and follow bad laws, ALLAH knows all that why I believe he cant give this kind of message for humankind with the commands of treating it as laws till quayamah.

Bottomline is that we cant give our children guns to defend themselves, we know their naughty nature and we know that they may harm themselves. When we cant do this, how can we believe that ALLAH can give such laws which permits killing in any circumstances? u may still justify that, but U are ignoring the loss which the Ummah has bore in past 1400 years of believing.

Brother, there is something missing in ur arguments. The point is whether ALLAH, who has created both non-muslims and muslims can say so bluntly that dont make friends among non-muslims? U are trying to streach this argument as if we are fighting some legal battle, but its not so brother, the question is what image we have of our creator in our heart. Is it of Saddam-like dictator who wont like his slaves to befriend anyone who dont obey him, or its of a affectionate mother who will love all her child equally no matter one is obidient and other is not that much obidient. Choice is urs, I have image of my ALLAH as even more affectionate than a mother, if U are of a different view, than I must not object to it.

Thanks for letting me know abot so many kinds of friends. But to me not being friend of anyone is one thing , and prohibiting anyone not to make f riends among certain community is another thing. What U are ignoring that if whole Ummah will start following the ayahs than how the world will look like? Coz when states are friendly with each other then only there are embassies. than only there can be immigration to other countries. For instance U are a US Resident only coz Ur country as a state and U as an individual didnt follow the ayah in question. I can assume that u have some non muslims as ur friend, so have U transgressed the limits set by ALLAH? sorry if my assumption about U is wrong, but in that case U can put any moderate muslim and assume.

Okay brother, thanks for sharing ur Islamic point of view.

Okay, but I think that u are agreed to my point that Islam if followed properly(which is not being followed) is a religion intolrent to other religions.

Thanks

212

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I am glad you mentioned all this. Lets put things into perspective here. Your father son argument has no direction. See a child has no power of reasoning or very little understanding, whereas men who study religion are of mature age and understanding usually. So there is no intellectual comparison here. Bogus example. If you give a child a gun and explain to him not to shoot because someone will die, the child will not even understand what you are talking about. A grown person reading the Quran will definitely understand the outcome of his doings. Everything in the Quran is mentioned in positive and negative, if you do good what are the consequences and if you do bad what are the consequences.

Now all the places you have mentioned are no doubt crawling with many types of Jihadi’s (as you like to call it). However we should look at it from the factual point of view. Tell me how many of them claimed that they initiated fighting because they a Quranic ayah and ran out into the open hunting for non-muslims. None. All of those Jihadis began their fight after being bred through political upheaval, opporession in one way or the other not because they read the Quran and started hunting down non-muslims. You have the precedence wrong, the part which they claim to be killing mushrikeen comes afterwards and that too is so they can gain momentum of their struggle or agenda from the local populace because being co-muslims many might support them under this banner. However you have ignored the fact that none of their fighting initiated because of reading Quranic verses. It all started from outside agressors. Soviets started it out in Afghanistan, Israel started it out in Palestine and US started it out in Iraq. Once you have been attacked their is religious justificatoin to fight off your enemy. The bombing repercussions you see in different parts of the world are all consequences of the actions of todays oppressive democratic regimes. You have good facts however if you can get your precedence correct then I’m sure you would see things the way they really are.

What you need to show is how many of these actions that are heaped upon Jihadis have been initiated by their understanding of the Quranic verses you so candidly quote around. Show me where the muslims were the instigators of war in the examples you have given. Show when a Jihadi claimed I am killing a non-muslim just because it says so in the Quran and for no other reason. I challenge you. You cannot do this without ignoring the politics attached with such sentiment of these people. You have to prove that they have never been wronged anywhere and inspite of that they are doing this.

Bottomline children and grown men are not the same and should not be accepted as such either.

I think you are stretching the argument about friendship here. I explained before it should be contextual whereas you are intent on generalizing it. Again I think you have missed the whole point. I think we should go back to square one on this one. Let me start out by asking a simple question: What do you think religion is supposed to explain to you? Trust me I am not trying to evade your question however I need to establish some ground here and I’ll get to your question through it provided we can establish some common ground here.

Sir, if you would stop generalizing your understanding of the verse I think you would not have a problem. The early muslims migrated to a Christian land to escape persecution from the Quraish and prefered to live there, wonder why? This shows us that if non-muslims are not hostile towards you then you can take their help and befriend them. The verses you keep quoting are circumstantial in my opinion and if read into their historical context you will learn the reason behind their revelation was because muslims were being persecuted left and right by non-muslims. Like I said before the non-muslim communities of that time were hellbent on exterminating muslims, so explain to me how muslims could have befriended them? Please answer this because you have been ignoring it.

It is a religion intolerant of falsehoods about Allah SWT to be exact not intolerant of everything in a religion. If you can show me commonalities I would more than welcome them in any religion.

213

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
I am glad you mentioned all this. Lets put things into perspective here. Your father son argument has no direction. See a child has no power of reasoning or very little understanding, whereas men who study religion are of mature age and understanding usually. So there is no intellectual comparison here. Bogus example. If you give a child a gun and explain to him not to shoot because someone will die, the child will not even understand what you are talking about. A grown person reading the Quran will definitely understand the outcome of his doings. Everything in the Quran is mentioned in positive and negative, if you do good what are the consequences and if you do bad what are the consequences.

Now all the places you have mentioned are no doubt crawling with many types of Jihadi's (as you like to call it). However we should look at it from the factual point of view. Tell me how many of them claimed that they initiated fighting because they a Quranic ayah and ran out into the open hunting for non-muslims. None. All of those Jihadis began their fight after being bred through political upheaval, opporession in one way or the other not because they read the Quran and started hunting down non-muslims. You have the precedence wrong, the part which they claim to be killing mushrikeen comes afterwards and that too is so they can gain momentum of their struggle or agenda from the local populace because being co-muslims many might support them under this banner. However you have ignored the fact that none of their fighting initiated because of reading Quranic verses. It all started from outside agressors. Soviets started it out in Afghanistan, Israel started it out in Palestine and US started it out in Iraq. Once you have been attacked their is religious justificatoin to fight off your enemy. The bombing repercussions you see in different parts of the world are all consequences of the actions of todays oppressive democratic regimes. You have good facts however if you can get your precedence correct then I'm sure you would see things the way they really are.

What you need to show is how many of these actions that are heaped upon Jihadis have been initiated by their understanding of the Quranic verses you so candidly quote around. Show me where the muslims were the instigators of war in the examples you have given. Show when a Jihadi claimed I am killing a non-muslim just because it says so in the Quran and for no other reason. I challenge you. You cannot do this without ignoring the politics attached with such sentiment of these people. You have to prove that they have never been wronged anywhere and inspite of that they are doing this.

Bottomline children and grown men are not the same and should not be accepted as such either.

[/quote]

Brother, before calling it bogus example, plz have a look around and see how mature reliligious muslims are exploiting the ayahs of holy quran to appease the shaitan present inside them, almost everywhere, almost in every country. I agree that everything in holy quran is mentioned, but mistakingly the nature that ALLAH has given to us humans, holy quran may and is proving to be more dangerous than a gun in a children's hand. for instance has ALLAH given that much capability of reasoning to each individual that he can understand the correct perspective of any ayah? NO way, I challange that very dismal percentage among muslims understand holy quran as it should be understood. An average muslim's source of understanding holy quran is some Mullah who often would teach him ayah selevtively and with misinterpretation that suits the designs of Mullah. So it may look a bogus example on papers, just like hholy quran looks a perfect b ook of laws on papers, but in practical my example is a good one (patting my own back.....lol) and shows how holy quran is given in wrong hands by ALLAH. Consequences are very much visible, only if U want to judge them being unbiased.

Brother, Ur views of jihad which we are seeing today, and justifying jihadi's actions is just like a typical muslim views, nothing new about it. But i will like to ask U a very simple question. What has divine laws/orders of jihad has achieved anywhere in thw world? Dont u feel that idea of jihad has proven a failure? And hadnt muslims been agressors in other countries in the past? Brother, concept of Jihad clearly indicates that holy quran is not book from ALLAH. coz jihad is a proven failed concept which aggravates a problem and not solve it. Can ALLAH give a failed concept?? BIG NO IN MY VIEWS, U are free to have a different view about it.

Brother, where from the inspiration of 9/11 came? Wasnt it from holy quran? how can u claim that those killings are not inspired by misinterpretation of holy quran? President of ur country Pakistan had himself blamed Madaris in ur country of fuelling communal hatred by making ayahs of holy quran its source. Brother U cant deny that Muslims have been architect of so many massacres in the past and present too, than should jihad be waged against muslims too? Jews were massacred by Germans, but did u heard any jew to bomb any German restaurant?? There has been g enocide in Rawanda, should they have waged jihad too? why u feel that its muslims only who have been opressed? why dont u see some muslims as opressors too? After all history will brand muslims with the only single community in the world who have killed more muslims themselves than an y other. How can u be so sure that muslims are so innocent while they havent spared even their own bretherns about whom ALLAH has given clear orders in holy quran prohibiting killling of muslim by muslim by any circumstances? how can u justify acts of those munafiqeen whose sole aim is to spread mischief in the holy land of ALLAH? I think holy quran has something ab out these kind of ppls.

002.011. And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.002.012. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

So arent these verses about those muslims who make mischief
in the earth, killing innocents, pretending to be following the orders of ALLAH?
Telling everyone that we are followers of religion of peace? just think over it and let me know.

I dont say that muslims havent been wronged anywhere, but they are not only opressed thats what i say, they are both opressed and opressors, and thats why these matters should be solved politically in a Gandhian way and not in a Islamic way, BTW do u know something about non viloent means of Gandhi about how to solve these kinds of problems?

So brother, bottomline is again that holy quran in hands of common man, is no better than a gun in a child hands, both dont understand how much havoc its mindless use can creat on humankind.

[quote]

***What do you think religion is supposed to explain to you? Trust me I am not trying to evade your question however I need to establish some ground here and I'll get to your question through it provided we can establish some common ground here.*

**
[/quote]
**

Brother religion should explain to me that how should I live my life peacefully with my fellow humans, how should i tackle to problems coming in my way in such a manner that it doesnt aggravates the problem, and last though not least, religion should explain to me how to be a good human being and prove to be a good servent to ALLAH. I m sorry to say that although every religion has proven a failure in this critaria, but Islam is above all coz it refuses to change itself while other religions have changed itself sensing how much counter productive a religion in its original form could be.

[quote]
Sir, if you would stop generalizing your understanding of the verse I think you would not have a problem. The early muslims migrated to a Christian land to escape persecution from the Quraish and prefered to live there, wonder why? This shows us that if non-muslims are not hostile towards you then you can take their help and befriend them. The verses you keep quoting are circumstantial in my opinion and if read into their historical context you will learn the reason behind their revelation was because muslims were being persecuted left and right by non-muslims. Like I said before the non-muslim communities of that time were hellbent on exterminating muslims, so explain to me how muslims could have befriended them? Please answer this because you have been ignoring it.

[/quote]

Brother as i have already told u that i understand historical context of the verses in question, but what u dont understand that u cant explain to every muslims its historical context, and thats why the verses have fair chances of being misinterpretated. As U know it are being. How can u say that holy quran is laws of ALLAH which should be followed till quamayah? Sometime to justify some verse u say its time bound and explain the proper context about it, and next time u say that its laws for everytime,dont u see any kind of contradiction in laws of ALLAH here? Dont u think that these historical verses should be deleted from holy quran to stop being misinterpretated and misused by some bad elements which are in pleanty among muslims? Thats the point.

[quote]

It is a religion intolerant of falsehoods about Allah SWT to be exact not intolerant of everything in a religion. If you can show me commonalities I would more than welcome them in any religion.

[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying the concept of falsehood, so its authority of so called islamists and not ALLAH to judge where lies falsehood about ALLAH. So now muslims will be seen as judges about whats wrong and whats not, since when this authrority has been given to muslims by ALLAH brother? will u enlighten me? But thanks for admitting that the religion is intolrent in certain aspects, as muslims are only one to tell others who to worship and who to not. good one brother.

Thanks
**

214

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Attaboy! Looks like you are getting somewhat of my drift. Now from saying that Quran is flawed you are saying that it is the followers who are taking things into their own hands and causing havoc. I have been saying that all the while, nothing wrong with the religion but the followers have been doing a terrible job. Now can we shift focus to the followers instead of the book because seems like you are talking the same thing as me. The thing you mentioned about Mullahs is very true, which is why I say if you want to understand Islam read the Quran and the Sunnah first in entiriety. The point I have emboldned needs more clarification though. Do you mean to say Quran is not worthy of man or what are you trying to convey?

Proven failed concept. How did Jihad aka (among non-muslims) "Islam spread by the Sword" make 1/3 of the world population muslims then. Ofcourse this is from non-muslims thoughts, not mine. I think you do not understand what Jihad is. Jihad means struggle. Struggle against evil in all its forms. I would like you to prove to me it is a failed concept before you draw conclusions. Since you mentioned concept, first I would like you to explain me the conceptual meaning of Jihad before we go out to prove its fallibility.

This is something I will not discuss because no one can establish proof that OBL did 9/11 and that OBL is not a US agent in muslim disguise. And again as I mentioned earlier, OBL was created by USA/CIA then dumped. So his inspriration really had nothing to do with Quran. It had to do with Saudi politics. OBL is a byproduct of US/Saudi politics not Quran. This said your whole argument is invalid.

This verse is about hypocrites among muslims who aid non-muslims against muslims claiming it to be in the interest of peace by getting the muslims annihilated. These are the people who do mulims more harm then a non-muslims because there faith is a disguise. Now what is your point?

Somewhat true. Muslim rulers are definitely oppressors within their own countries because they are not letting the muslim populace live by the Quran and Sunnah. Gandhian way, I do hold a very high opinion of someone who felt guilty when he had sex with his wife for pleasure. Nutcase. Perhaps you should read his biography to see how insane he really was.

Anything used without knowledge of it can be dangerous and Quran is no exception to it. Infact Quran even states this that those who read it with bias and an agenda will go astray. Wonder if gunmakers tell you that they only make guns to kill and destroy, can't think of any other use from it.

You missed the first and most important point. Religion explains God and how our relationship with God is supposed to be. A religion which you make amends to is not a religion from God. No one has ever been able to change anything in Islam asAllah SWT promised the scripture would remain unchanged, which really proves the point even more that it is from Allah SWT. Inspite the fact that so many non-muslims are opposing it and trying to change it, it stands as is. After all besides muslims, show me followers of any religion on earth that even follow their religion more than 50% according to their scriptures. Every other religion has failed because people just do understand (as is clear from your post as well), religion is not about human-human relationship (this is a distant secondary), its about human-God relationship. The day you understand that you will realize the truth in Islam. God created humans to worship him? And he defined the criteria by which humans are supposed to live on HIS earth. This universe belongs to him not us, so naturally whose rules are we supposed to live by in it then. Care to answer that Sir?

Sir, do you know how to differentiate laws from a circumstantial commandment. Not every verse in the Quran is a law, some are stories, some are principles of faith, some are commandments based on some historical context etc. Please do not be confusing all this. We as muslims treat laws as laws and guidance from everything else in the Quran. Again the verses we are discussing were commandments in their histrical context not laws of an Islamic state, if they were then do you non-muslims getting killed in Saudi Arabia by just entering that land, NO. Now how many times are you going to accepy my explanation and then just point at other muslims who do follow it. In todays world there are not too many followers of ay religion who abide by their scriptures and that is true of muslims as well. If you want to know Islam read the scripture and don't give examples of muslims who do not follow it. Please come up with something genuine. When you get the correct explanation you just go and find a example of someone who is practicing incorrectly. This really means that you do not want to know anything about Islam but rather just finding excuses to malign it. With each explanation this is becoming crystal.

Allah SWT gave the critieria to judge. And that is what we use. Its not very complicated. You believe in One God and worship only One God and not idols and accept Muhammad SAW as the last messenger of Allah SWT. Muslims do not tell who to worship, muslims are the ones who worship One God because God said so. Again get your facts straight, it would be less embarassing.

215

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Thanks for ur response brother

[quote]

Posted by US Resident.
Attaboy! Looks like you are getting somewhat of my drift. Now from saying that Quran is flawed you are saying that it is the followers who are taking things into their own hands and causing havoc. I have been saying that all the while, nothing wrong with the religion but the followers have been doing a terrible job. Now can we shift focus to the followers instead of the book because seems like you are talking the same thing as me. The thing you mentioned about Mullahs is very true, which is why I say if you want to understand Islam read the Quran and the Sunnah first in entiriety. The point I have emboldned needs more clarification though. Do you mean to say Quran is not worthy of man or what are you trying to convey?

[/quote]

Yes brother, all what I m trying to convey is that holy quran is not a practical book. In my views all the problems of Ummah is just coz of faith in book, which generates frustation when no one finds it fit to follow. End results being extremism by some deperate followers. And brother, NO, I m not speaking in ur language still, I m trying to convery to U that somewhere religion is flawed, in its original form. Brother I think that I understand Islam and I m trying to further understand this by reading holy quran frequently. Regarding Sunnah, I have a question. I think that sunnah could be read only by reading hadiths......and what I know is that hadiths came into shape only after 200 years after death of the holy prophet. Now my question is that what was source for muslims to understand sunnah during those two centuries when hadiths were not available???

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
Proven failed concept. How did Jihad aka (among non-muslims) "Islam spread by the Sword" make 1/3 of the world population muslims then. Ofcourse this is from non-muslims thoughts, not mine. I think you do not understand what Jihad is. Jihad means struggle. Struggle against evil in all its forms. I would like you to prove to me it is a failed concept before you draw conclusions. Since you mentioned concept, first I would like you to explain me the conceptual meaning of Jihad before we go out to prove its fallibility.

[/quote]

Brother, first of alll correct urself, its not 1/3 but 1/5 of the world population which is so called muslims, munafiqeen included, we can have a debate further to sort out muslims and munafiqeen among that 1/5. And i too think that sword spread Islam in its earlier days, thats why today we see 100% of Saudi Arabia as muslim today. The only Islamic nation having 100% muslims in it justify the Islam-spread-by-sword idea. What happened to those 100% who were jews/Christians/Kuffar/Mushrikeen is a question which begs for a suitable answer. And I understand what jihad on paper as well as jihad in reality is. The world is seeing jihad by sword by bombings, killings, and beheadings, and not the jihad wh ich u want to describe to me. So jihad is a failed concept and any failed concept CANT BE PRODUCED BY ALLAH thats my faith, which is offcource against urs. And conceptual meaning of jihad which cant be practiced means noting to me, its something which u need to defend something.

And plz think again about ur claims of being so many muslims present in the world, I m sure that this verse can help U coz ALLAH can never (Naujobillah) lie.

**
[quote]
*003.110. **Ye (muslims) are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors
[/quote]
*.

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
This is something I will not discuss because no one can establish proof that OBL did 9/11 and that OBL is not a US agent in muslim disguise. And again as I mentioned earlier, OBL was created by USA/CIA then dumped. So his inspriration really had nothing to do with Quran. It had to do with Saudi politics. OBL is a byproduct of US/Saudi politics not Quran. This said your whole argument is invalid

[/quote]

Brother, in my views OBL is among best of muslims present today, coz he is not a munafiq offcource. But if u dont want to discuess him, than its okay. its ur choice what to discuess and what not to.

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
This verse is about hypocrites among muslims who aid non-muslims against muslims claiming it to be in the interest of peace by getting the muslims annihilated. These are the people who do mulims more harm then a non-muslims because there faith is a disguise. Now what is your point?

[/quote]

Brother my point is this that Islam has produced more munafiqeen than muslims so far. I know that this verse is about hypocrites, but I believe too that this verse speaks about so called muslims today who are doing more harm to Islam and muslims than non muslims, u agree or not??? And majority of muslims present today are munafiqeen not muslims, if u read this statement in the light of 3:110, u may get the clear picture.

[quote]

US Resident
Somewhat true. Muslim rulers are definitely oppressors within their own countries because they are not letting the muslim populace live by the Quran and Sunnah. Gandhian way, I do hold a very high opinion of someone who felt guilty when he had sex with his wife for pleasure. Nutcase. Perhaps you should read his biography to see how insane he really was.

[/quote]

Brother, I wont object to ur words like Nutcase and insane about Gandhi, its typical muslim voice, and I wont call it insane either, ALLAH is the best judge and I believe in his justice. But the world respect him as all time great this earth has ever produced. That Was Gandhi, the Mahatma (Great soul) as the sane portion of world knows him. And I know that his concept of non violence will never work with a muslim coz non violence is something which is most unislamic, I will say how sad. As far as Ur claim that rulers of muslim countries are not letting muslim populace accoding to holy quran and sunnah, permit me to tell u that u are utterly wrong. It s muslim populace themselves who are munafiqeen and dont want to live by holy quran and sunnah. Plz correct urself. If u want proof, than ask I will provide Inshallah.

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
Anything used without knowledge of it can be dangerous and Quran is no exception to it. Infact Quran even states this that those who read it with bias and an agenda will go astray. Wonder if gunmakers tell you that they only make guns to kill and destroy, can't think of any other use from it.

[/quote]

Brother I agree with U that anything used without knowledge can prove dangerous. But U dont understand or dont want to understand something i have been emphasizing upon. let me try again.

See as per Islamic belief, holy quran is words of ALLAH, and every muslim is obiliged to understand and live by it. On the day of judgement no muslim will be allowed to hide before any imam or mullah to tell ALLAH that he gave me wrong understanding of holy quran. Bottomline ALLAH expects everyone to himself understand holy quran. ALLAH has himself stated in holy quran that he has made the book easy to understand so that everyone can understand it. now my question. Has ALLAH given that much capability to humans that they can understand the book??? I think no, holy quran is the book which can be awarded the prize for most misinterpretated book. Even great scholer of Islam have different opinion about the interpretation of holy quran. and to make the things worse, holy quran is in a language which cant be translated properly. So to understand holy quran, one has to learn Arabic..........S0, can ALLAH give that much complicated, hard-to-understand book with a tag of easily understandable book to humankind??? I m sure no, U are free to differ.

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
Sir, do you know how to differentiate laws from a circumstantial commandment. Not every verse in the Quran is a law, some are stories, some are principles of faith, some are commandments based on some historical context etc. Please do not be confusing all this. We as muslims treat laws as laws and guidance from everything else in the Quran. Again the verses we are discussing were commandments in their histrical context not laws of an Islamic state, if they were then do you non-muslims getting killed in Saudi Arabia by just entering that land, NO. Now how many times are you going to accepy my explanation and then just point at other muslims who do follow it. In todays world there are not too many followers of ay religion who abide by their scriptures and that is true of muslims as well. If you want to know Islam read the scripture and don't give examples of muslims who do not follow it. Please come up with something genuine. When you get the correct explanation you just go and find a example of someone who is practicing incorrectly. This really means that you do not want to know anything about Islam but rather just finding excuses to malign it. With each explanation this is becoming crystal.

[/quote]

Are u really honest brother? plz introspect and consult some scholers. I have said what i have to, now its up to u to decide. But I will still say that each and every word of holy quran is orders from ALLAH and should be followed by each and every muslim till quayamah. I think that u disagree, than okay.

[quote]

You missed the first and most important point. Religion explains God and how our relationship with God is supposed to be. A religion which you make amends to is not a religion from God. No one has ever been able to change anything in Islam asAllah SWT promised the scripture would remain unchanged, which really proves the point even more that it is from Allah SWT. Inspite the fact that so many non-muslims are opposing it and trying to change it, it stands as is. After all besides muslims, show me followers of any religion on earth that even follow their religion more than 50% according to their scriptures. Every other religion has failed because people just do understand (as is clear from your post as well), religion is not about human-human relationship (this is a distant secondary), its about human-God relationship. The day you understand that you will realize the truth in Islam. God created humans to worship him? And he defined the criteria by which humans are supposed to live on HIS earth. This universe belongs to him not us, so naturally whose rules are we supposed to live by in it then. Care to answer that Sir?

[/quote]

Brother, one thing is for sure, that we have different views about religion. U say that every other religion has failed, but I will say that all religion including islam has failed, and its very much evident. And I cant show u any religion in the world which is followed 50% according to its scriptures, otherwise world would have become the worse place to live in, as followers of one religion folllowing about 50% have caused so much damage to the world already. And as u said about the critaria about how his creatures are supposed to live on HIS earth, I will again say that its duty of muslims to show to the world that its CRITARIA given by ALLAH, and thats why it works wonders on society. mere lip service means nothing, litrally nothing but hypocricy.

[quote]

Posted by US Resident
Allah SWT gave the critieria to judge. And that is what we use. Its not very complicated. You believe in One God and worship only One God and not idols and accept Muhammad SAW as the last messenger of Allah SWT. Muslims do not tell who to worship, muslims are the ones who worship One God because God said so. Again get your facts straight, it would be less embarassing.

[/quote]

Brother as long as u are commited to truethfullness, it cant be embarassing for u, permit me to say that u are lying that muslims dont tell who to worship and who to not, rather muslims are most intolrent to any other way of worship than their's. We can see this intolrence in the only Islamic state present in world, rest are kufr and munafiq regiems thats why they show a bit tolrence towards othre religions. And its Islamic intolrance to any other idea that has groomed so many sects inside Islam, each sect declares themselves to be true and others unislamic. thats the truth about Islamic intolrance.

Thanks

216

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Happy Ramadan to all brothers and sisters, I think that we can continue this discussion again after the holy month is over. My intention has never been to hurt anyone's religious sentiments but to share my point of views and beliefs in the forum.

Thanks

217

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

^ Same to you too. Insha Allaah let the discussion go on.

Please keep in mind I stand for correction, and request my Muslim brothers and sister to help me, If I have faltered in my explanation.

Well coming back, to our argument let me first start with the basic foundation.

Bismillaah Irahman nir rahim,

Well you know the most important concept of Islam is Tawheed or Islamic Monotheism. Because Muslims believe that Islam, is the Fitrah and we believe in One God who is the creator, the sustainer and the Most Exalted and in arabic it is Allaah Glorified be him.

In every age a Prophet was sent to Earth by the will of Allaah, until the last Prophet Mohamed Sala Alayhi wa sallam thats 1400 years back. Click on the link below, for detailed explanation.

Answers to Questions on Islam](Salafi Publications | Answers to 7 Questions on Islam)

Assumptions

If we examine the claim of anyone to Prohethood then there are three possibilities concerning such a claim. The first possibility is that the individual is a liar. The second possibility is that the individual sincerely believes he or she is receiving revelation, but is only suffering some form of delusion, and the third is that the individual really is receiving revelation, and is speaking the truth.

Conclusion

Allaah sent down the messengers, to be able to produce a miracle unrivalled, so that even the assembled experts and masters were unable to produce the same Miracle?

Indeed all the generations above chose rather to fight the Prophets, peace be upon them. Contemplating on the aforementioned points, how could anyone choose to counter the Power of Allaah.

To be continued…

218

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

I was under impression that you would convince us of the Prophet’ interaction with an angel!

But you have started with a predetermined belief of appearance of many Prophets prior to the last one. I know some Prophets of known history….pre-historic history and myths are not my problem.
Mahavir (Jainism), Buddha, Christ and Nanak never declared divinity. They did not start any religion. And whatever we know was constructed after them by their followers. The Prophet Muhammad differs from all of them in all manners.

So, I think that you must convince us that in fact an angel conveyed Quran to the Prophet Muhammad.

219

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

Same to you. Inshallah I do not mind carrying on with the discussion.

220

Re: Conversion back to Hinduism

You are most welcome. I will reply to anything you ask as long as I am capable of it. Questions should be encouraged. If it had never worked before then I would agree that it was never right to begin with however Prophet Muhammad SAW formed a society, which is the hallmark of Islam and it worked. Yes, there are slumps in every society however every goal the Prophet Muhammad SAW set out to achieve in the name of Islam was achieved. So we cannot say that it never worked because it did.

I do not agree that Islam is flawed. What I would say is that our approach in implementing it is flawed. My point is that it does not matter from whose perspective we may say it is flawed, as long as we are living by Allah SWTs will. There will always be opposition. The purpose of a religion is to explain the truth about Allah SWT.

One thing we cannot do is mix and match. We cannot pick and choose from Islam and try to implement a society which is a subset of Islam, it does not work. When you try and do this you see the abominations that we all talk about today i.e. suicidal muslims, corrupt governments, fake mullahs etc. If Islam was really flawed how come we never saw these things in the Prophet SAW time, it was unheard of. They were humans like us. There is only one way of life Allah SWT has ordained for us on this earth and it is Islam. We can form societies however they should have the higher allegience to Islamic principles.

I would not like to discuss hadith in this post since we all already discussing too many things and it is hard to stay focused on one.

Whatever the proportion may be, it is significant. I disagree, what I may agree with is that many lands came under muslim rule as a result of belligerency along the borders of the muslim state however not conversion. There is no forced conversion in Islam. It was Dawah that brought conversions of non-muslims not muslim rule. The bombings and killings you see today are in no way Jihad in my opinion. When muslims fight a true Jihad Allah SWT help is gauranteed. So these acts are not Jihad. To fight a true Jihad however the muslims must be the best of muslims as well. Good muslims are counter-balanced by bad muslims and in such a scenario we are very unlikely to succeed in a Jihad. So it is not a failed concept because it really is not a Jihad.

I think if you read history you will realize when the Tartars totally annihilated the muslims empire it was dawah that spread Islam again not the sword. The non-muslim historians of that time said Islam will never rise again, it did though not through sword as many say. We are in a similar situation today. Islam will rise again, not through sword (i.e. bombings, killings etc) but through muslims practicing it properly and dawah. Inshallah I hope we live to see the rise of it again.

Mashallah! If you read the verse you will see the definition of a muslim embedded into it. Use it as a yardstick and see how many muslims of today stack up against it. The same can be said for followers of other religions, e.g. Christians, Jews and Hindus. All of them a very far from what their scriptures talk about.

Not in my opinion. However you are entitled to your opinion. However I sense that you want to say that MUSLIM = BAD PERSON.

Nothing surprising. Allah SWT said through the Quran that the true believers will always be in minority. Harm only in a worldy sense, think about those who according to Allah SWT (followers of other religions) will not achieve eternal salvation. Do you believe in Prophets?

Even peace has limits. You should not get trampled over in your peaceful quest. And you cannot guarantee that Gandhi could have achieved anything without the parallel muslim struggle as well.

Well here is the thing you missed, Allah SWT stated it is easy to understand and also stated it will be understood when read with a clear intention of getting close the Allah SWT, any bias will lead to misinterpretation. I can easily award such a prize to other religious scriptures as well infact other religious scriptures are followed and preached exactly opposite to what the scripture says. Quran is easily understandible, however I think the Arabic argument will be valid if you were in a position where you need to perform Ijtihad or derive legislation from the Quran. And that would be true for anything, even an attorney trying to understand the details of the law as compared to a law abiding citizen. Your argument still is weak.

Btw, what do you believe to be the Word of God. Which scripture do you consider as the untainted word of God?

I disagree with your views. If the Quran is stating the Story of Noah PBUH, explain to me how is that a law and how it is to be followed by the verse as a law?

Yes, again I say muslims are not doing a good job of preaching what is really in the Quran. No denials on that. However our different views seem to stem from the fact that we look towards religion for entirely different things. I am look to religion to find the truth about Allah SWT. Do you believe in God? If you do then explain why and how?

Sir, a muslim has the right to be on truth whether somone likes it or not. This only reinstates we really believe in what we believe in. Perhaps you do not.