Concubines

Re: Concubines

i dont think u shud take my comments personally it was not directed specifically at you ....
so if in future social and legal courses are availabe then in ur opinion it shud be okay to keep slaves

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That is why when people sell their teenage daughters to rich old drunk tribal chiefs without consideration of the daughter's future, that is an example of a perfectly legal, but completely immoral action
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i agree , if someone is bent on exploiting a system the even marriage can be exploited like that.

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How do you ensure for example, that such a concubine is exclusive to you? Whatever rights you say the slave or master have, who enforces those rights?
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thats a valid point ...i am not sure who enforced that though in old days as well either ....

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are slaves a religious obligation? Here is the thing though, slaves are mubah as far as i know, i.e. neither an obligation nor a sin. Islam merely regulates the conduct towards slaves without characterizing it as negative or positive
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u misunderstood i didnt mean keeping slaves by itself as religious obligation.
but keeping urself restricted to your wives and "those whom ur right hand possess" is a religious obligation ...now if we cant get married then what is the alternative apart from patience]

Re: Concubines

Bhai its a more complicated world than what you are assuming. "Muslims" are not one country. In fact, we are more than several nations. We are also residents of varying non-Muslim nations. Thus it is not possible to expect every Muslim to be able to use everything allowed under Sharia wherever he lives. When we have a choice, it is better to get along. When we face a problem affecting our fundamental tenets then we must choose to resist or move on. Those of us who choose to stay off the radar are good Muslims too.

Re: Concubines

Desperation seems to be in the air. Especially with threads like this coming up. Boo-hoo, my parents are going to do God knows what to me if I don't marry by their expectations, and so I'm going to get myself a concubine. But FIRST, let me run this idea by my GS crowd, in which perpetually angry women like PCG roam around looking for sexist meat to chew up and spit out into gutter ka paani.

I figured I might do some community service USResident, by making an offer. Help a brotha' in need out.

Re: Concubines

Tell that to our detractors.

And again, I'm talking about us becoming slaves (for the lack of a better term...and to make this somewhat on topic) to the perception of others...

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Peace All

I'm not sure that I understand the concept of slavery. I never have. This thread has been amusing to me. I do however, think that we view slavery to be like a punishment, or a stealing of human rights. I don't think Islam allows us to abuse human rights. Slavery has been given a bad name in a weird sort of way. By those hollywood images showing rag dressed malnourished sweaty shackled folk like prisoners made to do hard work at the end of a whip. This is not the 'slavery' that was permissble at the time of Muhammad (SAW). The American slave trade from Africa has had a big role in turning slavery into the problem it became.

Let me explain a bit. There was a house slave and a crop slave in America. They were of two different types. The house slave used to have suits to wear and would accompany his master in all affairs even to business meetings and would be allowed to contribute and give advice. If a fire would break out he would hurry to save his master, his family, his pets and the property. For sure he would run the house and like to be a 'slave'. He would be given the offer of freedom but would often refuse. On the other hand the crop slave would be given little. They would have shacks to live in and would be treated in a bad way.

A butler to today's standards is the sort of slave that would live in the time of Muhammad (SAW).

Now concubines ... all evidence suggests that these were women exclusive for the maidserving duties to only their own male masters. Again I think our own leaders from the Ottomon empire have given that practice a bad name and today we use the loosley interpretable verse in the Qur'an to justify having sexual relations with people who were are not married to. I'm not sure that is correct.

Women were beginning to be bred to be harem girls, that increased their number and increased the activity for that reason. I also believe initially the practice of having sex with women who were not married to the man in question but considered ones 'slave' may have been allowed. But I don't think it was a liked practice. I also believe later that such women were made to be married to men but had the duties of servants up until they engaged with full sex in which case they became wives. This number was limited to the four we read about.

Also 'what right hand possesses' is a term that refers to 'captive' which means Islam limited the female slaves to only 'captives of war' they were not allowed to be bought or sold after point in history.

Furthermore the idea was to free them ... then also if the captives were found to have husbands who were also captives they were brought together and the 'captors' could not touch them.

In Surah 23 verse 5-7 we read that chastity must be guarded before all except certain women. Two types wives and captive females who one has had nikkah with. They remain in captive status until they enter them sexually raising them to status of wife. Chastity does not interpret to sexual relations, it interprets to merely the revealing of the body parts that are commonly kept under clothing.

Here is another verse to provide evidence of this:
Surah 4 verse 25 ... Those men who were not rich enough to marry free women, could marry their 'captives' which means according to Qur'anic language engage in full sexual relations giving those women full rights as wives. So Islam has always limited the number of sexual relations of men to 4 women.

Our gutter interpretation through time has led to our demise and led to shamefully the Westerners calling an end to slavery when we should not have taken slaves at all and observed our duties better.

Moreover, it is basic concept that man ... Muslims must be slaves to none other than Allah (SWT).

Lastly, Now ... the mutah subject has nothing whatsoever to do with this matter at all.

Re: Concubines

^ lets not blame the americans for every bad thing in this world either
the degredation of slaves had been there even in islamic world long before the transatlantic slave trade , it depends a lot on the character of the individual owning them...i dont defend the ottomans either they are a classic example of twisting the rules of the religion to suit their own needs

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"Our gutter interpretation through time has led to our demise and led to shamefully the Westerners calling an end to slavery when we should not have taken slaves at all and observed our duties better"

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so u r saying that taking slaves was forbidden ?
west only outlawed slavery when it outlived its usefulness for them and they found more subtle ways of enslaving people....

i am not advocating the rag and chain slavery either .....but the kind of slavery which was in the time of Prophet [saw]

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Also 'what right hand possesses' is a term that refers to 'captive' which means Islam limited the female slaves to only 'captives of war' they were not allowed to be bought or sold after point in history.

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captives continued to be taken and sold decades [even centuries] after the Prophet [saw] ....no one ever raised objections to this practice even during time of pious caliphate ....they did however prevented exploitation of slaves which later became rampant
are there any islamic scholars who raised objections against this practice in that age ? i honestly dont know if u do share with us]

Re: Concubines

Peace bro. Das Reich

I do congradulate you for your eagerness to get to the bottom of this subject. I think you need to provide evidence that captives were bought and sold without question. I'll look for evidence that the intent behind captivity is to cater for the people who lost their means to live and sustain livelihood. Also to free systematically all who became Muslim.

Also, I still hold the slavery is only to Allah (SWT) and a different word needs to be applied for the type of arrangement that captives were in with their captors. Especially the female ones. Though you are taking me to account mainly for the idea of slavery I can assume that you have no concerns regarding 'concubines', which is an unIslamic practice - i.e. female sex slaves, rather than female handmaiden captives ...

And furthermore the initial argument of the thread that 'concubines' being a means to justify 'mutah' is also not at all valid. One does not practice 'mutah' on captives as far as I understand ... The belief of mutah is applied today on free women ... is this right or wrong?

Re: Concubines

Alaikum al-Salam......DR


Good example in todays culture of concubines in America.......


Mr Adnan Ghalib...............could be considered concubine of Brittany Spears...Right!.......:)

Re: Concubines

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Peace bro. Das Reich

I do congradulate you for your eagerness to get to the bottom of this subject. I think you need to provide evidence that captives were bought and sold without question. I'll look for evidence that the intent behind captivity is to cater for the people who lost their means to live and sustain livelihood. Also to free systematically all who became Muslim.

Also, I still hold the slavery is only to Allah (SWT) and a different word needs to be applied for the type of arrangement that captives were in with their captors. Especially the female ones. Though you are taking me to account mainly for the idea of slavery I can assume that you have no concerns regarding 'concubines', which is an unIslamic practice - i.e. female sex slaves, rather than female handmaiden captives ...

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bro psyah
can u explain the difference between "handmaiden captives " and "sexslaves"
u can read any book on islamic history and even in pious caliphate u will find people had slaves , i dont understand what u mean by "without question" they are given with specific names e.g Abu Rafi [ra] mawla Rasulallah [saw] , he fought in all battles from uhad onward and was freed later in his life by Rasulallah[saw], many other sahaba had retainers who were slaves many of them were muslims
also i am not sure if all those who became muslims became automatically freed either.

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And furthermore the initial argument of the thread that 'concubines' being a means to justify 'mutah' is also not at all valid. One does not practice 'mutah' on captives as far as I understand ... The belief of mutah is applied today on free women ... is this right or wrong?

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mutah is a totally different subject as u rightly mentioned , i asked a few knowlegdable people about it who are not biased against 12er shias and even they say that its ban was never revoked by anyone ...only abdullah b abbas [ra] and his pupils seems to have deemed it halal no disrespect intented to this great man though]...and i am not justifying mutah in this thread at all

furthermore there is no denying the merits of freeing slaves in islam

Re: Concubines

sorry bro i dont understand what u mean ....my ignorance

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shameful ugly it is that historically some lustful man feels perfectly alright about themselves when they violate and ruthlessly deprive someone of her respect and privacy as an able bodied fellow human being. they take advantage of women who are the kind that their own Moms and sisters are - females.
male concubinage is also a reality, too. and thus same for those women who take on men and are lustful about them.

yet it is true that men exploit women a lot more and the God who created both, is overlooking everyone.

to narrow down, as far as faith of Islam endorsing or enabling men to exploit women, is an argument that only a devil will make.

best,
Dushwari

Re: Concubines

Wow! Such tender feelings .....

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what exactly are u trying to imply ...plz be clear

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Dammit.

Okay, Emraan Hashmi, I think this means I have to let you go...

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I thought keeping mistresses (isn't that just another word for concubine?) is considered no different from slavey+prostitution and so illegal in all countries. You guys mean to tell me that there are places where it is not? that is disgusting.

I know in ol times it existed in all countries cultures and religions but human beings should progress not regress

Re: Concubines

Instead of getting us a wedding Gharaara for 5,000 rupees .. Get us gals , who are willing to wear it .. show some public spirit ...

Or check GS wedding forum .. where in all probability such wedding yokes starts from 50 k ( Rupees)..

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^^ majority of Pak girls will do it.. ;)

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WTH?????? Is the the 21st century or 7th century? disgusting

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let's see - somebody lost their job or the ability to earn a living, so make them slaves? hm. why not juts give them a job instead of making them a slave and then making them work?

and what has them becoming muslim or not to do with keeping them slaves?

Re: Concubines

PyariCgudia,

i am not going to presume what you mean by this.
for putting in your statement, thanks or no thanks.

best,
Dushwari