Concubines

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Salam alaikum
I wud like the knowledgable members of this forum to please shed some
light on this issue

1-We know that concubines were kept in the time of Prophet [saw]

2-they were mostly from those captured in war

3- when did this practice became obsolete ? when muslim expansion was
stopped by western powers so there were no more slaves coming in from
conquests

4-If in todays world anyone keeps a concubine is that legal? under what conditions it can be done today ? if at all

6- if one cannot marry for economic and social reasons is it
permissible to keep a concubine ?
surely this was not outlawed with Mu’tah as that it was done in early islamic days
even after the caliphate of umar b khattab[ra] ]

2

Re: Concubines

Keeping a concubine would be illegal under any secular law nowadays, as it is slavery and rape (both are big no-no's).

  1. I fail to see how one couldn't have enough money to marry legally, but have enough to keep a slave?
3

Re: Concubines

^ You’d be surprised at how much the price of human life has gone down.
I was reading an excerpt from “Crime So Monstrous” by Benjamin Skinner…one fact he pointed out was that pre-Civil War, a slave cost about today’s equivalent of $ 30-40,000. But today you can get a slave from another country for $50.

Anyway, its pretty sad and sick. Then again, some people don’t care about “secular laws”… :no:

Kaho dil ki baat sher ke saath
4

Re: Concubines

Women slaves were still being traded in the Ottoman Empire by 1908.

However, under anti-slavery pressure by the West, successive Ottoman Caliphs refused to sanction the taking of new slaves. Slavery was allowed to die out naturally within the Ottoman Empire as the last generation of existing slaves died out.

5

Re: Concubines

I am not sure if the information in the following thread is totally related to what you intended to know, but hope that it might give another dimension to it.(Insha’Allah)

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=244422

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Re: Concubines

A side note, Mu'tah in Islam was banned by Prophet (PBuh) after the need of it was over. There are many ahadees on prohibiting it.

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Re: Concubines

^ enuf about Mutah lets not discuss that here

8

Re: Concubines

thanks i didnt know that ....but what ottoman sultans did with or w/o western pressure is not islamic law

my question is that the only reason we cant keep concubines today is simply because a lack of slaves or because only those slaves obtained in holy war can be made concubines ? if not "slaves " are reaily avalibe even today only its not something that is socially acceptable

9

Re: Concubines

bhaijan aap nay desi shaadiyan kabhi daikhi hain ....plus all the cultural and emotional baggage that comes with it
keeping a slave is relatively simple , u just feed and cloth them the same way u do and they cant ask for more than that nor are u required to do more than that

10

Re: Concubines

[quote=“Sara516”]

^

**

.**

only if its exploited as slaves have rights too

no muslim shud theoretically] care about them …its our own badbakhti that we do i count myself ]

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Re: Concubines

The Quran, I feel, is quite clear on this. It does give permission for you to have a "right hand", however the context of this is still debated today. Secondly, within the Quran, you will find exhaustive commands to not spark a relationship with a woman against her will, and this goes for any sort of physical relationship. Including those of concubines. By my analysis, even taking a slave as a "sex slave" would be haraam if the said sex slave is being coerced into the relationship against her will, even if it is through an exploitation of a vulnerability (as there are verses also against exploiting vulnerable poeple and taking advantage of people).

By Quranic analysis alone, you should be able to come to a difinitive conclusion that you are not permitted to take a concubine, in the traditional sense of "I point to you, you are mine".

Moreover, you are highly encouraged in Islam to marry and legally take a believing woman as your wife and keep her, and as someone else said here, there should be no financial excuse not to keep a wife, as many women are financially independent and so finding a cost-effective way to enjoy a marriage is completely manageable, if you work hard enough at it. If I were you, I'd be trembling at the thought of taking a vulnerable woman as a "concubine", because in today's age that usually translates to keeping an illegal sex trafficking victim against her will in your home, and do you really need to post a topic to find out if that is halaal? If there were other scenarios in your mind, please do share. Perhaps I've misinterpreted you, but the term "concubine" in today's age really just means having a sex slave hidden in your home.

Finally, your religion does ask you to follow the law of your land. Therefore, if you are living in a country, where keeping a sex slave is outlawed, then please do not even consider it and try to respect the laws of the country you inhabit. MOST countries do have anti-sex trafficking laws even if they're not necessarily strictly adhered to at border patrol points.

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Re: Concubines

I am apalled at this. Really. Very very apalled. What keeps you, pray tell, from marrying a girl in a simple setting in a masjid (avoid paying grounds expenses), in a simple wedding dress (girlfriend, you need to come shopping with me, I can get you a wedding gharaara for 5000 rupees), and serving a simple home-cooked food and invite close family friends? In many places, you’ll find women who cater and who make their primary living this way because they’ve lost family members, and so there are many ways to get cheaper catering, AND you’ll have given a poor widow some business so she can pay her bills.

I digress. If you find that you need to look for a concubine, because keeping a Pakistani believing woman is too much for you, then I’m sorry to say I’ve really really really lost a great deal of respect for you. And even if this thread is some joke, I would have to say that you need to find something else to joke about.

Also, keep in mind that you cannot under any circumstance make a believing woman your “concubine”. That you cannot take someone against her will and make her your “concubine”. And that the only woman you’ll find who will be willing to serve as a “concubine” is a sex-trafficked woman victimized by a sex-trafficking maafia who will sell her flesh to you for nearly nothing so they can fill their pockets. The other option would be to find a non-believing woman to just sleep with you and you not marry her, but then that’s not the same thing as having a “right hand”, as you are forbidden to sleep with anyone who is a na-mehram to you.

Of course, you can always go join some war and take female boot-ay, and again, you fall into the issue of “Are you taking a concubine, or are you a rapist?”. And its a dark and dreary road you must be on if you’re thinking about this last option, my friend.

Quite honestly, there are many wonderful Pakistani muslim women on this forum who are single and not high maintenance. Maybe you need to look around and be a bit more open-minded about marrying a believing woman and working towards having a special relationship with her through a legal marriage. It can be very fulfilling.

Many a GS member has started a singles’ support group. Please refer to the following link and feel free to have a pow-wow with other men encountering similar problems such as yours.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=280648&page=3

Know this: You are not alone. We’re all hear to support you. As they still say on the rusty streets of New Yo’k : “I got yo back”.

Cafe's Guppy Auction!
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Re: Concubines

Can't put it better myself (well i could but that'd be too messed up)

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Re: Concubines

***The most current practice amoung Sunni peoples of Saudi Arab and Egypt is called "Misyar"............which is not considered a concubine but a 2nd or even third wife(with Nikah) who lives in her own or her parents residence...

there are some articles posted on the net about this practice.....

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Re: Concubines

PCG , i appreciate ur input and one worthwhile thing that u mentioned is duly noted that "muslim women cannot be taken as concubines" infact first time it was done illegally was in yemen by bishr b abi arat in 38 or 39 AH....
however there is nothing to prevent u from converting the concublnes to islam
i am not talking about doing this in any nonmuslim country mind you am wellaware that following laws of the land is a requirement thats why we pay taxes]

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Re: Concubines

maybe today, but in classical islamic age it was a trivial matter and a non-issue i can quote hundreds of examples

[QUOTE]
Secondly, within the Quran, you will find exhaustive commands to not spark a relationship with a woman against her will, and this goes for any sort of physical relationship. Including those of concubines
[/QUOTE]

that is your inference but its not obvious.A slave is a property of the master
islam sets up limits to prevent exploitation obviously but that does not infringe on the rights of the master

[QUOTE]
By Quranic analysis alone, you should be able to come to a difinitive conclusion that you are not permitted to take a concubine, in the traditional sense of "I point to you, you are mine".
[/QUOTE]

i am not qualified to do quranic analysis unlike some people here ...so i seek the advice of other knowledageable people either from historical sources or contemporary sources
unfortunately muslims today are so insecure about their past that they wud believe in any interpretation which prevents discussion on topics they find too embarrassing to talk about

[QUOTE]
Moreover, you are highly encouraged in Islam to marry and legally take a believing woman as your wife and keep her, and as someone else said here, there should be no financial excuse not to keep a wife, as many women are financially independent and so finding a cost-effective way to enjoy a marriage is completely manageable, if you work hard enough at it
[/QUOTE]

no one is doubting that but everyone's circumstances are different
and secondly the primary purpose of this thread is not to find out "how can single people can get laid" if thats what u think .....but the legality of keeping concubines

.
[QUOTE]
If I were you, I'd be trembling at the thought of taking a vulnerable woman as a "concubine", because in today's age that usually translates to keeping an illegal sex trafficking victim against her will in your home, and do you really need to post a topic to find out if that is halaal? If there were other scenarios in your mind, please do share. Perhaps I've misinterpreted you, but the term "concubine" in today's age really just means having a sex slave hidden in your home.
[/QUOTE]

in today's world talking of a lot of things which are part of religion can also will earn u a one-way ticket to Gitmo ...so given that ur caution makes sense it still does not prove that concubinage is illegal in islamic law
.
[QUOTE]
MOST countries do have anti-sex trafficking laws even if they're not necessarily strictly adhered to at border patrol points.
[/QUOTE]

western countries have full rights to enforce whatever laws their citizens want implemented ...no one doubts that but "islamic " countries have done that as madscientest pointed out] under pressure of western countries in early 20th century

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Re: Concubines

[quote]
I am apalled at this. Really. Very very apalled. What keeps you, pray tell, from marrying a girl in a simple setting in a masjid (avoid paying grounds expenses), in a simple wedding dress (girlfriend, you need to come shopping with me, I can get you a wedding gharaara for 5000 rupees), and serving a simple home-cooked food and invite close family friends? In many places, you'll find women who cater and who make their primary living this way because they've lost family members, and so there are many ways to get cheaper catering, AND you'll have given a poor widow some business so she can pay her bills.
[/quote]

i have had numerous fights with my family over this so dont even get me started on this .....u think its as simple as that ...in some familes u will be excommincated before they consider such an option like u mentioned
so why shud i break kinship ties IF a legal alternative is avalible

[quote]
I digress. If you find that you need to look for a concubine, because keeping a Pakistani believing woman is too much for you, then I'm sorry to say I've really really really lost a great deal of respect for you. And even if this thread is some joke, I would have to say that you need to find something else to joke about.
[/quote]

i am surprised rather shocked that u had any respect for people who had differences of opinion with you to begin with.....and rest assured this is not a joke [maybe u have seen my posts in the past ]....
i usually dont start threads like this

[quote]
The other option would be to find a non-believing woman to just sleep with you and you not marry her, but then that's not the same thing as having a "right hand", as you are forbidden to sleep with anyone who is a na-mehram to you.
[/quote]

that is fornication and adultry ...may God save us from this grave sin

[quote]
Of course, you can always go join some war and take female boot-ay, and again, you fall into the issue of "Are you taking a concubine, or are you a rapist?". And its a dark and dreary road you must be on if you're thinking about this last option, my friend
[/quote]

.maybe u wud like to think about what u just wrote because thats exactly the kind of objections islamophobes use against the great personalities of islam ...and by this u have implied that a lot of great people were "rapists"

*remember that laws of islam are eternal , they may vary in its implementation depending on the social/economic /political situation but no one can make a lawful thing unlawful or vice versa and thats exactly the purpose of this thread *

18

Re: Concubines

not all sunni madhabs accept that as legal

Cafe's Guppy Auction!
Cafe's Guppy Auction!
19

Re: Concubines

Of course, I claim to be no scholar, but I can't help thinking on line here....

First, for what follows, I don't distinguish between concubines and slaves in general...so my apologies if I missed the point!

An important dimension that can't be neglected is the fact that abolition of slavery is not strictly a function of a moralizing revisionist movement, or more notably a way to circumvent economic advantage by those who could capture and utilize a large workforce of slaves, but also of international treaties.

When such treaties are equitable, i.e. Muslims will neither take nor be taken as slaves, and is respected by all parties, then it is in fact in our best interest (given our relative weak position on the world stage) to keep a lid on slavery.

It may be tempting to cite the principle that we not bar the practice of what has been explicitly allowed, but I think an argument could be made that for the sake of a treaty we are indeed allowed to do that. In some sense, this is what was done as a result of, say, the Treaty of Hudaibiya. The question is, then, are we allowed to suspend any such acts indefinitely?

Also, there may indeed be schemes of circumventing slavery allowable under Islamic law...namely governments regulating the inflow of slaves (presumption being this is the right of a government under Islamic law...historically it is my understanding that spoils were distributed from a central authority, and there was no set distribution policy) and manumitting them on the spot. Theoretically, the only legal avenue to obtaining slaves would be from the government, however if government policy was to manumit slaves on the spot....well there would in effect be no slavery as a consequence of a government manumition policy. It would take a generation for any existing slaves to live out their lives, and with their demise so too would end slavery. Of course, it would be a bit absurd to capture slaves only to free them, but the point is implementing such a scheme would in effect end slavery, so nobody would bother with slaves in the first place. Pardon the long winded description, and I may be way off base, but I think this was done in the Middle East at the turn of last century...

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Re: Concubines

So your family will break ties with you b/c you dont' want the fancy/grand wedding, so instead of trying to set them straight, you'd rather get a slave?

Dude...I had doubts abt u before but i figured chalo...wrong chocie of words on your part...but you're absolutely crazy. God help your wife/slave/daughters if/when u ever have em.

Home schooling vs. public/private schooling