Concubines

[ravage]

Re: Concubines

DR you know how tenuous history can be. issues like concubines and mutaa may remain matters of academic debate but if one considers these things for himself he has to analyse them in the context of his own sensibilities and that of his family and environment. clearly not everything permissible is desirable.

IMHO there does not exist today the social environment that existed back then to contextualize, regulate and self-enforce these kinds of relationships. even if they are theoretically permissible they are merely likely to be abused, un-regulated and would become the worst representation of Islam possible.

[JaanBaazz]

Re: Concubines

@Das_Reich

**remember that laws of islam are eternal , they may vary in its implementation depending on the social/economic /political situation but no one can make a lawful thing unlawful or vice versa and thats exactly the purpose of this thread **

This is a contradiction in its face. Eternal laws should not vary in their implementation. period.

The reality is that slavery, war booty etc. are all still under discussion by Islamic scholars and they all have lots of preconditions and situations under which they would be valid as per Shariah.

I say this with all sincerety - Life is getting harder for Muslims in the West as it is. What we don’t need is people to take some false pride is showing their “true” Islamic identity by bringing up obscure parts of Islamic law. Before you try to use Islamic law for your own benefit - ask yourself if you have followed the simpler yet oft ignored Quranic injunctions and Hadiths on helping the poor, thinking the right thoughts etc.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Concubines

^ bro picoico dont worry about the "long winded description" i understand ur point very well .....AFAIK the slaves were distributed from central authority as well as those acquired personally by people on wars or otherwise this until time of the first four caliphs]

ur point on international treaties is an important one ....i didnt think of that....
honoring treaties is an important clause of being a muslim...if we agree to uphold the constitution of say pakistan WE MUST honor all its treaties as well as a good muslim I agree completely....

[Das_Reich]

Re: Concubines

@JaanBaazz

I say this with all sincerety - Life is getting harder for Muslims in the West as it is. What we don't need is people to take some false pride is showing their "true" Islamic identity by bringing up obscure parts of Islamic law. Before you try to use Islamic law for your own benefit - ask yourself if you have followed the simpler yet oft ignored Quranic injunctions and Hadiths on helping the poor, thinking the right thoughts etc.

do i know u ? i think not ...nor do u know what i do
so before u jump to conclusions regarding my character try to keep unneccesary posts to a minimum
furthermore there is NO contradiction ... e.g u may not choose to eat beef but u cant make it unlawful , similarly u may choose to wear animal skins but u cant make it lawful ....

[Das_Reich]

Re: Concubines

@ravage

[quote] DR you know how tenuous history can be. issues like concubines and mutaa may remain matters of academic debate but if one considers these things for himself he has to analyse them in the context of his own sensibilities and that of his family and environment. clearly not everything permissible is desirable

i was about to say ravage and picoico must contribute to this thread !
true what u say but when we justify a lot of things we do which are actually less clear in islamic law] i dont see why anyone shud have such a big problem with something that can be easily proved from historical sources and there is actually less debate on them than on other issues like mutah which in reality is just used as a covenient way to bash shias in general].
in the case of mutah it can be argued that it was the Prophet[saw] himself who outlawed it [one POV] but regarding concubinage or slavery there is no such mention

.

[quote]
IMHO there does not exist today the social environment that existed back then to contextualize, regulate and self-enforce these kinds of relationships. even if they are theoretically permissible they are merely likely to be abused, un-regulated and would become the worst representation of Islam possible
[/quote]

your concerns are valid and like i said slaves definately have rights as well and there are numerous examples of how it they can be fulfilled
abuse is also made of misyar and mutah and even regular marriage] as well yet people defend that furiously

[picoico]

Re: Concubines

JaanBaaz,

At the risk of missing your point, I must say to hell with image. It's overrated, biased against us, and quite frankly held of little worth by everyone except us. We should do what is right by us, period.
.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Concubines

@Das_Reich

PCG , i appreciate ur input and one worthwhile thing that u mentioned is duly noted that "muslim women cannot be taken as concubines" infact first time it was done illegally was in yemen by bishr b abi arat in 38 or 39 AH.... however there is nothing to prevent u from converting the concublnes to islam i am not talking about doing this in any nonmuslim country mind you am wellaware that following laws of the land is a requirement thats why we pay taxes]

Once you convert her to Islam, I believe the rule in the Quran is that you must officially marry her then. Concubines and "believing women" are not synonymous and there's no overlap. If she's muslim she has full right to be your wife, and you end up back on square one - dealing with the financial "oh so hard difficulties" of marriage.

You know, really, its silly to have this conversation. How many Pakistanis do we know who are married and are managing their finances fine? You pay for internet. In my book, you can afford to feed and clothe your wife. Its called Wal-Mart.

[picoico]

Re: Concubines

^
I wouldn't suggest Wal-Mart...90% of the stuff in there is made with slave labour...

[Das_Reich]

Re: Concubines

@PyariCgudia

[quote] Once you convert her to Islam, I believe the rule in the Quran is that you must officially marry her then. Concubines and "believing women" are not synonymous and there's no overlap. If she's muslim she has full right to be your wife, and you end up back on square one - dealing with the financial "oh so hard difficulties" of marriage.

its not clear , some sources say Mariah Qubtiah [ra] remained a concubine
and other sources also backup claims that slaves that converted to islam remained concubines ....

[quote]

You know, really, its silly to have this conversation. How many Pakistanis do we know who are married and are managing their finances fine? You pay for internet. In my book, you can afford to feed and clothe your wife. Its called Wal-Mart.

[/quote]

"silly (er)" things have been discussed here ....and if u think it is kindly stay away from this topic

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Concubines

Replying to some of your other statements, and excuse me for not quoting, as that just complicates my ability to reply to you, you bring up some VERY... interesting points.

I have read the Quranic passages exhuastively on women and marriage and there are clear verses not to impose yourself on any woman, and its a pretty categorical command. Hence, even in the situation of a "right hand" or "slave" or "concubine" or "war booty/hot booty", you have to first ascertain consent.

Now you ask about this practice in TODAY'S world. Lets say for sake of argument that you are theologically allowed to have a concubine. Theek hai. Now, lets move onto the factuality of the situation. In TODAY'S world (*snap snap, lets make sure we're all together here, we are living in 2008, not 1400 A.D. and the only ottoman's people know about are the kind you put your feet up on when watching 30Rock, which by the way I recommend you to watch - just PM me and I'll send you a link - it might help you to understand women a bit better).

Sorry back to my original train of thought. WHERE are you going to get a concubine and how will you get her to consent to be your concubine? Like I originally mentioned, you have a few options:

1. You can join some army out there, and kidnap women in warfare or take POW's. You want to do that? Really? Dealing with your family fighting you about gettting your wife a 30,000 ruppee dress vs. a 5,000 ruppee dress is much worse of a scenario?

Really?

Downside: Your ding-a-ling might get blown up in warfare.

1. Contact some dodgy Eastern European sex trafficking mafia and order yourself a mail order bride. Or shall we say "bride". Careful they don't send you a blow-up doll. Downside: You may possibly be arrested, and you're doing an injustice to some poor girl who's father sold her into sexual slavery so he could eat bread. Your conscience, your choice.

2. Overthrow Musharraf, Zardari, AND Nawaz Sharif (MQM too possibly), and re-convert Pakistani laws to allow for concubines. Except that since concubines can't be believing women, you will be forced to choose from the working class hindu population or you can always go to Kafiristan to the Kailash tribe. I hear they're gori and obese. You know. The Pakistani equivalent of "sexy".

Upside: You're bringing sexy back

Downside: Zardari might unleash Bilawal on you.

1. Go to Africa and revive the slave trade.

Upside: You have an excuse to be a tourist and you'll get to see zebras in their natural habitat.

Downside: The Kenyans are a little peeved off right now. You might push them over the edge.

Vaise, you know its so sad. You could just ask me to be your concubine. shrugs kissy faces.

I'm TELLING you. Go to Raabi centre, Karachi. Fabulous shaadi joras and for very cheap. And fine, masjid isn't a good location - try Gaddhani beach. It would be free too, and you can do your Kabool Hai's with the water splashing on the rocks right behind you. How ROMANTIC.

Vaise, in all seriousness, I am very concerned about you. If you need to talk, I'm here. We can find you a low-cost wife. There is hope, I promise.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Concubines

@picoico

^ I wouldn't suggest Wal-Mart...90% of the stuff in there is made with slave labour...

Good point. How about "Tar-jey"? I usually find t-shirts there for 3 dollars on the clearance rack. Underwear for 3 bucks. Look, fine, if you want her to wear the fancy stuff, you gotta pay 5 bucks.

I mean, like that's all she needs to wear. Right?

[Das_Reich]

Re: Concubines

PCG since u have resorted to sarcasm and insults its best not to reply to them

[Sara516]

Re: Concubines

Ahhhhhhh now i get it. Since the “second wife” argument is so old and tired (seemingly comes up every month), now we have moved on to concubines/slaves. Good, it just took 4 years for this argument to die. :k:

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Concubines

Das! I’m so seeeeeriooooos! German accent

Ich bin PCG. Y tu?

Okay FINE. I’ll be serious. But if you think that last post was a joke, it was truly not meant to be one. I kept it light hearted so that you could see the point without getting steamed up (as you’re so very steamy). Question is - why are we talking about concubines in today’s age, when you can’t get one? Or do you know of a way we could and you’re just not sharing the secret, you selfish dawgie you?

(no really, tell me, I want one of 'em. Get her to do my dishes.)

[Das_Reich]

Re: Concubines

[quote]

Question is - why are we talking about concubines in today's age, when you can't get one?

[/quote]

firstly u have to make a decision on 2 things
did islam come only for 7th century arabia
second things that prophet[saw] made lawful are lawful for ever as no other shariah will be sent after him we may not be able to practice all of them but if someone can it shud not be considered wrong]

so whats the need of it ?
well islam lays down certain prohibitions and some other are laid down by our cultural values , what i am saying is not a manifestation of my anti-social personality disorder but i believe today's values and traditions are to be respected as long as they are not in conflict with your faith.Ideally u shud fulfill both but If fulfilling religious AND cultural obligations becomes too overbearing then its better to forgo the latter than former

[Sara516]

Re: Concubines

owning a slave today’s society/culture is wrong. Is THAT a cultural obligation that u can’t seem to let go of? Your family is ready to cut you off u cz u dont want to have a nice wedding, so you think getting a slave is the answer? Shabash :k:

[JaanBaazz]

Re: Concubines

@picoico

JaanBaaz,

At the risk of missing your point, I must say to hell with image. It's overrated, biased against us, and quite frankly held of little worth by everyone except us. We should do what is right by us, period. .

If that is the case, do you think owning slaves is "right by us"? Many of us are either citizens of or residents of Western nations. We need to obey the laws of the land, otherwise we will have chaos, right?

Also, there is a bit of naievete here. How many of the cyberheroes posting about owning slaves etc. with the anonymity of the internet will dare say that in public in whatever land they live?

[ravage]

Re: Concubines

@Das_Reich

i was about to say ravage and picoico must contribute to this thread ! true what u say but when we justify a lot of things we do which are actually less clear in islamic law] i dont see why anyone shud have such a big problem with something that can be easily proved from historical sources and there is actually less debate on them than on other issues like mutah which in reality is just used as a covenient way to bash shias in general]. in the case of mutah it can be argued that it was the Prophet[saw] himself who outlawed it [one POV] but regarding concubinage or slavery there is no such mention

I dont think anyone is arguing that it was ever outlawed. I am not aware if it was. Slavery is however a throwback to a time that just doesnt exist anymore.

[quote]

your concerns are valid and like i said slaves definately have rights as well and there are numerous examples of how it they can be fulfilled
abuse is also made of misyar and mutah and even regular marriage] as well yet people defend that furiously
[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt defend misyar or mutah furiously either. However in the case of regular marriage, and in some places mutah/misyar there exists a social and legal framework to ensure that abuse happens not as the norm, and when it does happen there are recourses available. Any system, whether mutah, misyar or even marriage, that doesnt have social and legal recourses against abuse available is abhorrent.

That is why when people sell their teenage daughters to rich old drunk tribal chiefs without consideration of the daughter's future, that is an example of a perfectly legal, but completely immoral action.

The question of where you would find a slave is not just one of convenience. It is indicative that the particular social dynamic that existed during prophetic times, does not exist anymore. How do you ensure for example, that such a concubine is exclusive to you? Whatever rights you say the slave or master have, who enforces those rights?

@Das_Reich

well islam lays down certain prohibitions and some other are laid down by our cultural values , what i am saying is not a manifestation of my anti-social personality disorder but i believe today's values and traditions are to be respected as long as they are not in conflict with your faith.Ideally u shud fulfill both but If fulfilling religious AND cultural obligations becomes too overbearing then its better to forgo the latter than former

are slaves a religious obligation? Here is the thing though, slaves are mubah as far as i know, i.e. neither an obligation nor a sin. Islam merely regulates the conduct towards slaves without characterizing it as negative or positive.

[picoico]

Re: Concubines

@JaanBaazz

If that is the case, do you think owning slaves is "right by us"? Many of us are either citizens of or residents of Western nations. We need to obey the laws of the land, otherwise we will have chaos, right?

I'm talking about image - other people's perception of us...and how it is crap, and an invalid reason to restrict our own thoughts and behavior. Read my post above. I have no interest in seeing slavery returned, and to add to what i said, I think that among all international agreements Muslims currently are involved in none are more equitable or done in good faith to the extent that the one that bans slavery is. it's a good thing...NOT because it makes us "look" good in other people's eyes...but because it is right by us.

[USResident]

Re: Concubines

@PyariCgudia

Vaise, you know its so sad. You could just ask me to be your concubine. shrugs kissy faces.

Yaar never seen such desperation ..... I'm worried about you now. I'll have to find a roadside romeo for ya lassy ...