Concept of honor and respect

Sara516 · December 26, 2005, 4:12am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Since honour killings have no basis in Islam, I feel that they would be treated like murderers under Sharia

Blitzkrieg · December 26, 2005, 4:16am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

PCT, do you really care about islam?

Rahul67 · December 26, 2005, 4:20am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Sijee.. It doesn’t matter whether I based logic on movie. Now its a researched fact that sex by non consent has more to do with power less to do with lust. Its like I can rob it I will rob it.
Now Disclosure isn’t any other western cowboy flick, its a classic and bold movie based on concept we are trying to discuss.

Rahul67 · December 26, 2005, 4:27am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Typical - Few points Mr. Reza

We aren’t saying it doesn’t happen in India. So who are you telling that it happens in India. yes it happens in India and its against law.
One Bibi Jagif Kaur - didn’t get punished. Ofcourse there are powerful who work around law at times in all places. Now since Bibi Jagir Kaur got away, doesn’t mean that this kind of killing is acceptable in India.
There are enough murders get away every day world over due to loop holes or power.

Now by the way What is the point you are trying to make?
Dowry death/Murder for family honor do happen in India as well. It is against law, and than law deals with it as much as it deals with any other crime.
Now if we need to strenghten the enforcement of judicial system, than we need another thread.
Again - What’s the point or value you are trying to add to this discussion by bringing India issues.

Its like I start saying, Wife battering is most prevalent in US, or Russian wives are most pimped - What’s the point?

armughal · December 26, 2005, 4:42am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

whether or not rape is a result of lust is not a discussion pertenant to religion....
so cut if off....

i dont say all lust results in rape....
or that all rapes r due to lust....

but why deny the fact that most of the time rape is just done by the offender to satisfy his lust....
i still dont get it what is so sick or so wrong to say that a man does rape out of lust....

Sara516 · December 26, 2005, 4:43am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

^ It’s sick because it’s wrong ! It implies that the woman was responsible for that crime, when she wasn’t!

You know what I’m sick of saying this. Sick people will never understand this

Rahul67 · December 26, 2005, 4:52am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Let me try to give it one more shot to explain…
Most people want more wealth - Though people with power use power to get it.
Most men want more of women - Hence when in powerful situation he robs it.

Hence a rape is more about situation of power and less about lust…

Rahul67 · December 26, 2005, 4:53am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

I agree with you here

Mehnaz · December 26, 2005, 4:55am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

What's wrong with it armughal? Well, every time anybody says "rape is due to lust" (insert "hahahahahaha" like someone so articulately did above) you basically belittle the event which truly is an act of violence - an act that is brutal, both physically and psychologically - when you equate rape to mere lust. It's insulting and degrading to people who have been raped or suffered any kind of sexual abuse. It cheapens the act even more by blaming it on lust. It just goes to show that people don't realise the severity of rape.

If you ever get a chance, you should actually talk to someone who has been sexually abused. Perhaps then you will understand how incredibly insulting it is and what is wrong with making such a statement.

Sara516 · December 26, 2005, 5:00am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

^ MQ don’t waste your breath on em

You know what it doesnt matter how patiently you try to explain to them, you can’t get through to these people. Poeple who think like that are arrogant and insensitive and you can only pray that they see the difference.

armughal · December 26, 2005, 5:04am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

how do u ppl equate "rape is due to lust" with "it was the woman's fault"????

PyariCgudia · December 26, 2005, 5:25am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Because the religion equates lust with it being the woman's fault as well as the man's fault.

anjjan · December 26, 2005, 5:27am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

I think you are right. Now have a look how PyariCgudia has unnecessarily tried to drag up Islam once again instead of coming to a straight argument.

I think religion is secondary when we are talking about the sufferings of women. I have made it very clear that there is no such religious court to prosecute the guilty in India and anyone charged with murdering a woman for any reason is prosecuted as per Law of the land.

Many have been given the sentence…from 5 to 10 years up to life imprisonment. Off course the Law procedure sometimes is very slow and you can bash India, Hindus for that. I will support you.

**Is it a wrong deal if I ask about the Sharia punishment to male chauvinists for ‘honor killings’ in an Islamic society? And how come the culprits get very small punishment, (if they get)?

Please get rid of your complexes! No one is criticizing Islam.**

PyariCgudia · December 26, 2005, 5:37am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

You're telling me that I'm UNNECESSARILY dragging up Islam in this, when your questions are directed to Sharia punishments?

Do you know WHAT the Sharia is, even? Its Islamic law, based upon the Quran, the Sunnah, and collective jurisprudence moves by Sahabah who became caliphs, especially the first four. The law of the land, which is reality law, CAN BE sharia, if the government chooses to apply it.

You've been given the answer as to what the sharia says about honor killings, and you're free to look at present government's laws on honor killings. I hope you're not confusing "shariat" with "laws of the land", because they're not always the same. Either way, you have your answers for both.

Sharia = person who does honor killing receives death sentence

Current pakistani law = person who does honor killing receives death sentence.

Sharia's EXECUTION of the law = person really does get a death sentence

Current Pakistani Execution of the law = person may or may not get death sentence - depends upon level of curruption in law enforcement levels.

Rahul67 · December 26, 2005, 5:40am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Makes sense, it should be punished and in any case punishment is death.

So all of us are common ground. Now what's the topic about??

Sara516 · December 26, 2005, 5:41am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

i forgot exactly why i even opened this topic

PyariCgudia · December 26, 2005, 5:42am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Now really, if anyone here feels genuinely, that mr. anjjan's questions have not been answered repeatedly and in various different ways so that he can understand, please let me know. I don't know if I'm hallucinating or if this guy really is that dim-witted that he's not understanding the answers to questions he's repeating over and over again.

Moderators, really, Please tend to this. I think this guy has derailed the discussion from its original topic quite a bit by his incessant questionings. Either he thinks we're dumb, or he is dumb himself. Either way, please do something with him.

Sadiyah · December 26, 2005, 5:58am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

I tried looking up fatawa and came across two on rape.

Bits and pieces from the first one:

The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.

Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr to the woman.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. End quote.

Al-Muwatta’, 2/734

Shaykh Salmaan al-Baaji (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In the case of a woman who is forced (raped): if she is a free woman, the one who forced her must pay her a “dowry” like that of her peers, and the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him. This is the view of al-Shaafa’i, and it is the view of al-Layth, and it was also narrated from ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him).

Abu Haneefah and al-Thawri said: the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him but he is not obliged to pay the “dowry”.

The evidence for what we say is that the hadd punishment and the “dowry” are two rights, one of which is the right of Allaah and the other is the right of the other person. So they may be combined, as in the case of a thief whose hand is cut off and he is required to return the stolen goods. End quote.

Al-Muntaha Sharh al-Muwatta’, 5/268, 269

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (i.e., if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess, and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her, which may be proven by her screaming and shouting for help. End quote.

Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146

Secondly:

The rapist is subject to the hadd punishment for zina, even if the rape was not carried out at knife-point or gun-point. If the use of a weapon was threatened, then he is a muhaarib, and is to be subjected to the hadd punishment described in the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”

[al-Maaidah 5:33]

So the judge has the choice of the four punishments mentioned in this verse, and may choose whichever he thinks is most suitable to attain the objective, which is to spread peace and security in society, and ward off evildoers and aggressors.

See also question no. 41682

And Allaah knows best.

Ref: Ruling on the crime of rape

Second one in its entirety:

If it is confirmed that a man engaged in sexual intercourse with a woman by threatening to kill her or by using some kind of drug or anesthetic, then his crime will be more serious than that of consentual sex.

The punishment thereto is death by execution. He will not be entitled to any pardon or reprieve whatsoever, regardless of whether he was single or married.

The one who forces sex upon someone else under threat of death is an evil and vile member of the society and should be purged. He is involved in an act of open violence and transgression against others and the spread of mischief throughout the land. His is the fate of bandits and highway robbers:

Allah says: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 33]

A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment. Our Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Allah has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness, and what they are coerced into doing” [Related by Ibn Mâjah and authenticated by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr, and al-Albânî].

Also, it was related by Ibn Abî Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahâb that a woman accused of adultery was taken to Caliph Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. Umar released the woman. [The narration was approved by al-Albâni]. Ibn Qudâmah stated in his book al-Mughnî: “There is no punishment on the woman who was coerced into adultery.”

Ref: What is the punishment for rape in Islam? What happens to the rape victim?

anjjan · December 26, 2005, 6:01am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

They are ‘Moderators’ and not ‘Monitors’.

I repeat….get rid of your complexes! No one is criticizing Islam.

I have many questions to the sufferings of women, but the way you drag up everything to Islam….I cannot argue.

These were your words in the very beginning……

Sadiyah · December 26, 2005, 6:03am

Re: Concept of honor and respect

A fatwa on honour killing:

Question: I read in the papers something that disturbs me about Islam. I read that a Muslim man in one of the Islamic countries killed his seven-year-old daughter because he suspected her of being raped. He is quoted to have said: “The motive behind the killing was to defend my honor, fame, and dignity.” Is this what your religion teaches?

Answered by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî, former professor at al-Imâm University in Riyadh

That father is guilty of murder.

The teachings of Islam should be taken from the correct sources – the Qur’ân and the Sunnah of our Prophet (peace be upon him).

There are false practices to be found in some Muslim societies are only but these are alien to the Islamic legal injunctions. Such practices cannot in any way be attributed to Islam. You should know that the Muslim scholars’ objective is to remove these unsavory regional customs and steer Muslim societies towards the true teachings of Islam.

The mistakes of Muslim people should not be attributed to Islam. You know from history that the massacres of the Native Americans and the slavery of Africans should not be attributed to Christianity, even though these atrocities were carried out by beople who called themselves Christians.

The events you have mentioned are unlawful and the one who commits such crimes is a criminal for illegally killing someone.

In Islamic Law, no one can be punished for adultery, man or woman, until it is legally confirmed that he or she did it. In case of this seven-year-old girl, she would never be punished in any case, since she was a minor.

According to Islam, it is not a simple thing to accuse someone of adultery, and even more difficult to punish someone for it. Anyone who falsely accuses someone else of adultery will receive a severe legal punishment of flogging with a whip, as he slandered another person and injured the accused person’s reputation. If this is the punishment for accusing someone else of adultery, then how could it be Islamic that a person can not only accuse someone but also kill that person on the basis of his accusation?

Legal punishments will not be applied on people who were coerced into doing things, such as being raped, neither in this life nor in the Hereafter. It is the duty of the raped victim’s family to request punishment of the rapist and not to punish their poor daughter. In fact, it is the Islamic right of the daughter on her family that they protect her, defend her, and pursue justice on her behalf.

Ref: “Honor” killings](http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=154&main_cat_id=6)