Concept of honor and respect

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Seminole, generally it’s culture mixed with Islam where culture has the upper hand. Many of the Muslims that I know follow what I call a cultural Islam. This version perfectly fits their cultural background, beliefs, and practices and has some aspects of Islam as well.

Also, most individuals that I know usually have their parents teach them Islam, which is more or less the version that has followed by the forefathers. Usually this version of Islam is not checked for authenticity either.

Muslims usually read Quran in Arabic and don’t always bother reading the interpretation or anything else that could help them better understand what’s actually in the Quran.

By attend services, I think you are referring to attending the mosque for prayers. The imaam is not always a scholar. Therefore, an imaam isn’t always an individual one should look up to for religious rulings. However, many very conveniently refer to their local imaams as if they are the subject matter experts.

In my opinion, one should attend Islamic classes headed by proper and sound Islamic scholars to learn about Islam, or perhaps by reading authentic books.

Ideally, we are to strictly stick to Shariah; however, it isn’t something very common these days.

Re: Concept of honor and respect

the point of my post was that Quran mentions no punishment for rape, it however does mention death penalty for murder…
hence poitning out the flaw in the logic that since Quran does not mention it, it cant be serious…

rape is not a result of lust??? :konfused:
thats news to me… :confused:

Re: Concept of honor and respect

** No rape is not a result of lust. To say it is would imply that the woman had responsibility it and deserves t be punished (for inciting lust). Rape is akin to murder. If someone was murdered, are they held responsible for being in the wrong place, wrong time? Are they to be punished for being murdered? **

Re: Concept of honor and respect

^ if it wasnt the victim, it was definitely some other woman who spakred the lust in the criminal's heart and caused the action....
whatever t may be, it is definitely done out of lust....

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Thats' the most ignorant thing i've ever read..

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Rape is so not about lust. Its about power. Men will want to have sex even if you put them on a friggin Island populated by nothing other than chickens. Its an inborn instint. Chances are, the isolated island man will end up humping the chickens.

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Rape is not about Lust? :rotfl:

Maybe some Rape isn’t, but its definitely about lust. Thats what attracts the rapist.

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Another Honor Killing, I am going to refrain from writing anything else here, not because I dont have my own Opinion, but because its Futile, and a lost cause. But also because Some people will surely come up with some justifications for the act, and I am sick and tired of banging my head against the wall.

Man held for slaying four daughters in 'honour killings’Saturday, 24 December , 2005, 20:11

Multan: A man on Saturday allegedly killed his four daughters by slitting their throats while they slept in their home in eastern Pakistan, after the eldest married a man of her choice, police said.

“The man came to a police station to court arrest after killing his four daughters today,” senior police officer Mukhtar Iqbal Tikka told AFP.

Nazeer Ahmed, who worked as a labourer near Burewala, some 110 kilometres east of Multan, resented his eldest daughter’s love marriage and killed the three others, fearing they might follow her, Tikka said.

Ahmed apparently told police his eldest daughter Muqadas Bibi, 25, had married a man of her choice against his wishes and her act had tarnished the family’s honour, so he plotted to kill her and his other daughters.

While she was asleep with her sisters Bano Bibi, 12, Sumera Bibi, 8, and Humera, 6, he allegedly cut their throats with a sharp knife, Tikka said. About 4,000 people, mostly women, have been killed in conservative rural areas f Pakistan in recent years in the name of protecting family honour. Many others have been raped or burnt with acid under codes of tribal justice. President Pervez Musharraf early this year signed into law a bill introducing the death penalty for honour killings.

http://www.samachar.com/showurl.htm?rurl=http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14056893&headline=Man~slays~4~daughters~in~honor~killings

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Aejaz, don't be so pessimistic sir!

No one in their right mind could justify such a sick act as killing a six year old in the name of honour. Even those who feel that other women are indirectly responsible for another woman's rape could not say that this act is in any way okay.

Then again I wouldn't be surprised.

Allah maaf karay :(

Re: Concept of honor and respect

You, naturally as a man, must have felt lust for some woman in your lifetime. Are you telling me you wanted to rape her?

Re: Concept of honor and respect

** President Pervez Musharraf early this year signed into law a bill introducing the death penalty for honour killings.**

I didn't know about this. Has there been anyone yet who has been executed by the State with this penalty?

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Sadiyahji I have three questions to ask you……

  1. If the custom ‘honor killings’ has nothing to do with any religion, why we are discussing this matter at a religious forum?

  2. Are the killers prosecuted under Sharia and what punishment usually a killer gets for this henious crime(hence the custom ‘honor killings’ is mostly common in Muslim societies)?

  3. Has Islam failed to influence the mindset of majority of Muslims?
    Given below are your words……

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Honour killings across India by Hindu’s and Sikhs for couples daring to marry in the wrong caste or by choice.

http://www.onlinewomeninpolitics.org/archives/04_0112_in_wrights.htm

**Honour killings on the rise in India: Women’s group **

Indian women activists have called for an urgent change in the country’s laws to counter the uncontrolled rise of “honour killings” in India, saying they comprise ten percent of all killings in the northern Indian states of Haryana and Punjab. Honour killings – where men and women are killed by their kin or members of their caste – are also rampant in the western part of Uttar Pradesh. “This violence is committed in the name of saving the “honour” of the community, caste or family,” says a leading Indian women’s group, the All India Democratic Women’s Association (AIDWA) in a resolution passed in the Indian capital, New Delhi. At a conference held by AIDWA, Sunday, victims of violence narrated tales of killings, rape and humiliation. Most of these honour killings were ordered by so-called caste panchayats, or informal courts comprising members of a particular caste, which decide all matters concerning them. “A caste panchayat is a self-proclaimed body consisting of village elders or the elite,” explains AIDWA general secretary Brinda Karat. “Women are excluded from the body,” she says. The caste panchayats sit in judgement on matters of marital or domestic discord or on issues relating to land. Often, villagers give precedence to the judgement of a caste panchayat rather than that delivered by the legal panchayat – a constitutional body of men and women elected by villagers to decide local issues.

While most such crimes go unrecorded, AIDWA warns that honour killings are on the rise in India. In Muzaffarnagar, the worst affected district of Uttar Pradesh, 13 cases of honour killings were reported in the first nine months of 2003, up from ten in 2002. Some 35 couples were also declared missing during this period. Most honour killings revolve around run-away marriages or relationships between two people from different castes. There were several instances of a groom or bride being killed by irate family members for marrying someone from a so-called lower caste. A prime example is that of Geeta Rani of Hoshiarpur of Punjab, whose husband, Jasveer, was killed by a group of people from his village last month. Rani and Jasveer both were from different castes, with Jasveer’s killers belonging to Rani’s caste. “They cut off his hands and legs and then killed him for “daring” to marry one of “their” women,” recounts Rani. In another instance, a woman from Uttar Pradesh who belonged to a caste of barbers – considered by traditional Hindu society as one of the lower castes --was repeatedly raped and finally killed by a group of higher caste Yadav men. Her crime? Her son had married a girl from the socially and economically more prosperous Yadav caste.

AIDWA says forms of violence differ, ranging from public lynchings and murders to rape. In some cases, people’s faces were blackened or heads shaved off. Some were forced to eat excreta or drink urine, while others faced social boycott. In its resolution AIDWA says that, “Central to such violence is the subordinate position of women and girls in all castes and communities. Women are viewed as the property of the family, the caste and the community. A woman’s chastity is the “honour” of the community.” AIDWA has called for strict measures to stem the rise of honour killings, including a ban on all decisions of caste panchayats that violate the Indian Constitution, which has abolished castes and regards men and women as equal.

Re: Concept of honor and respect

The statistics of Honour killings carried out by Hindu’s and Sikhs in India is shocking.

And in Punjab and Haryana, one out of every ten murders is an honour killing. In most of the cases where the girl is from an upper caste, the boy is the target of violence, usually by the girl’s family. Often, girls who are murdered for “destroying the honour of the family” are cremated without any legal formalities and the deaths concealed.

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Reza Pehlavi Bhai,

So just Because the Indians have a monopoly in honour killings, does it justify the same in Pakistan, or are you just trying to get the better of India, so what if its honour killings, atleast you will have beaten India at something, some achievement that!!!!

It is a well known trait of yours, to answer a question with another question or posting a link about Indian Atrocities, but allways evading the original issue.

Thats the sole reason I mentioned about banging my head against the wall.

Sara516 Baaji you Listening/reading????

Aejaz

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Aejaz, im not ur baaji, ur much older dan me :bummer:

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Sara516 Baaji just like the title of your thread suggests, Respect for any Human Being is Universal and is not bound by any age restrictions, I even call my 15 and 13 year old sons Aap.

Aejaz

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Hindu’s and their apologist supporters should take off their blinkers. When it comes to honour killings and crimes against women, India is one of the worst offenders in the world, despite what Pakistan/Islam haters may want people to believe.

http://www.keralanext.com/news/index.asp?id=412527

**Crimes against women on the rise in Rajasthan **

Rajasthan may have a woman chief minister, but incidents of atrocities against women are on a high.

According to official statistics, 1,038 cases of rape were registered in the state in 2004. The figure was 1,050 in the previous year and 1,051 in 2002. Cases of other kinds of anti-women crimes and atrocities increased to 6,781 in 2004, from 5,733 in 2003. The National Crime Research Bureau (NCRB) places Rajasthan at the third spot in order of overall incidents of atrocities on women. The report also says that the state has the highest number of registered rape cases per 100,000 population. It comes second in atrocities on women from Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. “Be it at work place or any other place, every time we are harassed physically or emotionally,” social activist Rakhee Waghawa said.

In one of the worst cases, policemen raped Sarita Bai, a village council head. Another incident of gang rape took place in a temple premises in Jodhpur Oct 1. The victim was a Dalit woman. Of late, several incidents of acid throwing have been reported from various parts of the state. A college student, Vijaylakshmi, sustained severe burn injuries when a boy threw acid on her at a market at Vidyadhar Nagar here. The police identified the culprit as Mukesh, her fiancé. In another similar incident, Shambhu Dayal Sharma, the landlord of a Dalit woman, threw acid on her after she resisted his physical advances. The incident occurred Oct 10 in Kotputli village, about 100 km from here.

**Civic groups and women activists complain that in most cases the authorities end up blaming the victim. Both attribute the rise in crime against women to the mindset of the police and the government. “Crime is always crime. Then why every time the women victim has to prove her sound character?” asks social activist Renuka Pamecha. **

Re: Concept of honor and respect

  1. I don’t recally saying honour killing has nothing to do with any religion. If I did, I take my words back. I can only speak about Islam and yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Many could perhaps be under the impression that it is something religious.

  2. I’m not a subject matter expert here. I’m sure there must be some punishment for it. However, I’ve never looked it up. If you wish, I can try and find out.

  3. Islam has not failed to influence the mindset of the majority of Muslims. Majority of Muslims just cannot be bothered to open the books to read and find out; rather they rely on what has been passed down to them from their parents or elders and assume that all of it Islamic. Those who don’t follow, I cannot speak on their behalf. Guidance is only in the hands of Allah (SWT) Alone.

Re: Concept of honor and respect

Sadiyah Baaji,

Usually I hold you in high esteem, but this one point of yours has dented your credibility.

You start with


1-I don’t recally saying honour killing has nothing to do with any religion.


2-If I did, I take my words back.


3-I can only speak about Islam and yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.


4-Many could perhaps be under the impression that it is something religious.


So initially you do not recall honour killings are religious, than you retract your statement, again using the crutch of not recalling, You than go a step further and claim to speak about Islam only, and stress Honour Killings have nothing to do with Islam, Then you do a 360 and say many could be under the impression that it is something religious, (Note not Islamic but Religious).

Makes me feel like I am sitting in a Merry Go Round!!!

Coming back to the point, as per your logic, Honour killings are Religious only not Islamic, Sadiyah Baaji If you claim you can talk about Islam only, how did you reach the conclusion that it is a Religious ritual “Only Not Islamic”

More Importantly, If Honour Killings are not Islamic, and a Muslim commits that crime, would you label him a “Non Muslim”, because everytime such an incident happens, Muslims stress and scream to the world that Islam does not permit or allow or condone such hedious activities, So again I repeat would it be justified to call the Culprit a “NON MUSLIM”.

this is a catch 20 situation, if you say that only Allah can judge if someone is Muslim or not, than you have again contradicted your statement where you said it is not Islamic, see where I am coming from???

In my Opinion, when you say if a honour killing happens else where it “MIGHT” be religious, but if it is commited in a Islamic state/country, than its definitely “NOT ISLAMIC” You are just being a BLIND FOLLOWER, and a Biased Blind Follower at that.

An Honour Killing is an Honour Killing is an Honour Killing and is also an Honour Killing.

Aejaz