The punishment for adultery as stoning wasn't a modification of honor killings!!!
It was a modification of the same Abrahamic punishment as perscribed by the Jewish tradition. Like I've stated, the Islamic version is described in Hadith's and not in the Quran, so keep that in mind as well. Furthermore, I don't see how honor killings are remotely similar to the adultery punishment.
Adultery punishments are not done for the primary purpose of salvaging a family's "honor". The concept of family honor is not emphasized in the Quran in the first place. Rather, the emphasis is on - do good deeds. Period. No honor, etc involved. And you can't commit a crime to preserve your honor in Islam.
Adultery punishments are meant to preserve the quality of family life. If you were married, and your spouse cheated on you, and did it to the point that 4 people managed to catch them doing it, wouldn't you be utterly upset over it? How do you think it would affect your children? How would it affect you? Is that fair to you?
These punishments are meant to get people to keep their private parts in their pants, and reserve them only for the people they took marital vows with.
Honor killings, as I repeat, can be done for anything and everything. You could catch your wife talking to another guy, and you could kill her.
Oh and here is another difference. Honor killings target women. Punishments for adultery are given to both men and women. Hey, at least our religion takes it seriously when a woman is cheated on by a womanizing husband! Lets say there was no punishment for adulterers. You'd still whine because you would claim that not enough is being done to guys who don't keep their stick in their own pants!
Answer to this claim was very much there in the post you deleted first. For you it may be fair. I have no objection.
It looks like a joke when some innocents are killed and you ask us you look into the hadits.
This is the best way to reject the blame.
I can only admire how smartly you can keep apart Muslims from Islam for anything you cannot adjust with.
Re Hadit…can you assure me that you or someone else will not reject the hadith as a false one re ‘death by stoning’ for adultery?
Plenty of people don't buy into the hadith literature. Plenty of people do.
Does it really matter? Muslim governments can not even execute the most basic of Islamic laws. Go into any muslim country and the first law you see broken is that of hygeine. If muslims can't get 50 percent of their religion right (which would be hygeine), then I am not surprised if we do not have the rest of the religion correct.
However, the difference between punishments for adultery and honor killings are pretty dramatic as I've described them.
anjjan, you are the one who suggested ahadith propagate honour killing and it appeared to me that you suggested it is very much an Islamic practice and women are easy targets. Therefore, it is incumbent upon you to provide me with evidence, as I surely haven't come across anything of such nature.
Yes, I believe in sahih ahadith. Therefore, if it's a sahih hadith I will not reject it. However, if you bring forth a fabricated or a weak hadith, I will most certainly ignore it.
The post that I deleted was again a mere accusation with no evidence. There was no hadith that you posted or a verse from Quran to backup your claim. Just because Muslims these days aren't practicing and carry out atrocities does not mean Islam backs it up.
I look forward to you posting ahadith and verses from the Quran clearly indicating that honour killings and other such practices are Islamic.
PyariCgudia ……I absolutely agree with you. My question is…if you do not find any similarity between ‘death sentence for adultery’ and honor killings?
So what if it was a Jewish tradition. It was followed by pre Islamic Arabs….further it gets a mute sanction from Islam.
Can you tell me….why this barbarous practice left in Muslim societies only?
(For your information some Hindus do follow (or want to follow) the same law but long back we have forgotten if it had any traditional or religious backing.)
Actually I think cheating on your spouse and getting away with it, is pretty barbaric…
Again, if Islam didn’t have any stringent laws against adultery, you’d be complaining that the laws should be more stringent.
I think you’re confusing theory with reality. If women are being targeted by anti-adultery punishments, then that’s a problem with how muslims execute their laws, not with the law itself.
Again, if the law was executed AS IT SHOULD BE, then very few people would actually be getting punished. Its hard to come up with 4 witnesses, and the severity of the punishment and some good examples of the law actually being executed correctly is enough for people to think twice before they cheat on their spouses.
Sadyaji…it is for your satisfaction…..There is no verse in Quran or any sayings in Hadit giving a clear cut, word to word narration of the ‘honor killing’. Are you happy?
(I could ask you where did I write that Hadits or Quran mentioned the ‘Honor killings’, but that will be a bad practice of ‘trap after trap’.)
Do you not find any similarity between ‘death by stoning’ for adultery and ‘honor killings’?
How come a tradition ‘Honor killings’ followed by many societies is left mostly practiced by Muslims (only) today?
It is your turn to tell me how come and under what compulsions, traditions and habits Muslims are still following ‘honor killings’?
And do you find ‘death by stoning’ for adultery very intelligent and an honorable act?
No, there is no similiarty whatsoever between honour killing and the punishment for zina.
Punishments for zina is strictly based on fornication and adultery, and for that you need witnesses, unless I believe you have the zani admit to it on his/her own.
Muslims these days have hardly any knowledge of Islam. They are mostly under the assumption that their regional culture or the practices of their forefathers = Islam. Just because the masses decide to stay ignorant, Islamically uneducated, and stubborn does not mean it is part of Islam, or condoned and encouraged by Islam.
Sadyaji…it is for your satisfaction…..There is no verse in Quran or any sayings in Hadit giving a clear cut, word to word narration of the ‘honor killing’. Are you happy?
Okay, so you AGREE that honor killing is not an Islamic practice. Jeez. Just this statement of yours pretty much renders your other questions about Islam and honor killing pretty silly.
It is your turn to tell me how come and under what compulsions, traditions and habits Muslims are still following ‘honor killings’?
Look at your above quoted statement - the first one. You answered your own question. No one here accepts or applauds honor killings.
And do you find ‘death by stoning’ for adultery very intelligent and an honorable act?
I don't find adultery an honorable act. Do you find it an honorable act? I personally would hate to have my adulterous husband get away with a simple divorce. I would want the sucker to be punished. Same with a rapist or a murderer. I see adultery as a serious crime, but apparently you think its a joke. I can only hope that your own spouse cheats on you, and then lets see easily you handle the situation.
I believe Punishments for fornication (sex before marriage), and adultery (extramarital sex during marriage) are different punishments. According to the Quran, fornication = lashes. A limited number. Adultery, according to Hadith literature, is death. Adultery punishment according to the Quran = still debated whether its just lashes or death.
I was always under the impression that Muslims follow the literal, traditional interpretation of their religion much more then say, Christians. Their dress, traditions, praying, and adherence to the tenets of their faith seem to be followed much more closely and conservatively then most other religions. So why is it that many here say that Muslims have 'hardly any knowledge of Islam"? Since such a large majority already seem to attend services, read scripture, etc, how can Muslims get to know the ‘real Islam’ any better? I know with Christianity, since church attendence is so low, secularism is dominant, and people follow so little of what the religion teaches, it would be hard. But why with Islam?
The Hudood and Zina laws against adultery and fornication cannot be considered humane punishments in the 21st century. Flogging people with a whip or chopping of their heads is not done in the 21st century. It just is not done! It's not done in Pakistan and should never be done in our country.
At this moment, take a deep breath and try and remember the ideals that Quaid-i-Azam set for Pakistan. Did he want us to chop off heads with machetes? Did he want us to become a mediaeval state ruled by tyrannical maulvis?
PCG.. true adultery must be punished but not by amputation or decapitation! Please.. something more humane? e.g. a hefty fine.. or all his property confiscated... i bet that's more of a disincentive to cheating than having your head removed.
I personally hold back from believing that adultery is really punishable by death, simply because its not mentioned in the Quran. Death Punishments are serious enough to be covered by the Quran. That's my personal 2 cents. Most muslims will disagree with me though.
^ in other words u r saying that a rapist is not to be given a death sentence because Quran does not find it serious enough an offense to be covered????
^ Rape isnt' adultery !! It's a violent crime, akin to murder..
Adultery is a crime of sex, of passions, and although sex is involved in rape/sodomy, the motivations behind rape are NOT LUST! Why do not people get this??