Companions

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
** You also have to differentiate the role of a Caliph and an Imam (Representative of Allah (swt)).

Imam Ali (as) bore the injustice with patience rather than reort to force since protecting Islam and the work of the holy prophet (pbuh) superceded all other issues.

Islam was in its infancy and if the Imam (as) had fought against the "so-called" elected leaders, there would have been divisions within the ummat, thereby weakening Islam.

Instead, the Imam (as) chose to strenghten islam by spreading the true knowledge of the quran and the teachings of the holy prophet (pbuh) by working with those who usurped power.

And as you well know, if the Imam (as) did want to fight to take control, who could have stopped him ?

No, he chose restraint, for the love of Allah (swt) and his holy prophet (pbuh).

Yet, this does not excuse those who took power unjustly.
**
[/quote]

Dear Brother a1shah,

Please explain to me as per your understanding why then Hazrat Imam Hussain (ra) felt the need to fight the 'so called' elected leader?! Did he not wish to go by his father's way and endure restraint & not devide the Ummah?

I see a solid contradiction between the behaviour of Hazrat Ali (ra) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (ra) ... which can not be the case.

[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
a1shah,

SubhaanAllaah! I can not believe that anyone has the audacity to try and change the words of Allaah (SWT) or his Apostle - salaatu wassalaam 'aleyhim.

Why did you re-phrase and edit this hadeeth a1shah, from its original wording in Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 6688 Narrated by Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman and posted by Ibrahim? The hadeeth reads as...

[quote]
Qays reported: I said to Ammar: What is your opinion about that which you have done in case ** (of your siding with Ali)?** Is it your personal opinion or something you got from Allah's Apostle? ** Ammar said: We have got nothing from Allah's Apostle which people at large did not get,** but Hudhayfah told me that Allah`s Apostle (peace be upon him) had especially told him amongst his Companion, that there are twelve hypocrites out of whom eight would not get into Paradise, until a camel would be able to pass through the needle hole. The ulcer would be itself sufficient (to kill) eight. (So far as four are concerned, I do not remember what Shu'bah said about them.)
[/quote]

And you changed it to ...

[quote]
Qays reported: I said to Ammar: What is your opinion about that which you have done in case ** (of your siding with Ali)? Is it your personal opinion or something you got from Allah's Apostle? ** did not get, but Hudhayfah told me that Allah`s Apostle (peace be upon him) had especially told him amongst his Companion, that there are twelve hypocrites out of whom eight would not get Ammar said: We have got nothing from Allah's Apostle which people at large into Paradise, until a camel would be able to pass through the needle hole. The ulcer would be itself sufficient (to kill) eight. (So far as four are concerned, I do not remember what Shu'bah said about them.)
[/quote]

Yes, i'm sure many of us would be interested to hear the answer to this ...
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Jazak Allahu Khair Brother Hasnain for trying to get to the bottom of this issue which I feel is a very dangerous precedent, if allowed in a Muslim environment.

Just so that we can be sure that this is not an accident or mistake , let me point to this same sacrilegious conduct that A1shah is practicing in this forum and on this very thread.

** Evidence one: **

Aishah quotes sahih bukhari vol :5 p. 24, cairo as follows:-

[quote]
This hadith that you have mentioned is called hadith-ul-manzila : when the prophet (p.) went to tabuk in the 9th year a.h., he left imam ali (a.) in madina and said " wouldn't you like to be to me as haroon (a.) was to moses (a.)?" sahih bukhari vol :5 p. 24, cairo.
[/quote]

But the original of that hadith reads as follows :-

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 5.700 Narrated by Sad

Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

Ibrahim says: ** Notice how he had edited that hadith to suit his purpose and claim it is found as such in Sahih Bukhari **

** Second evidence: **

A1shah claims

[quote]
sahih muslim adds to this report the following phrase, " but there would be no prophet after me ". sahih muslim vol : 7 p. 120, cairo.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ** Sahih Muslim does not have Volume 7 and A1shah is tricky by not quoting the hadith number, Further A1shah here is insinuating that Muslim added such words into that hadith. **

Dear Brothers and sisters in Islam,
I have found this problem being repeated by A1shah, again and again in other threads too for which I have exposed them therein. ** It is alright if translations differ due to having different translators but editing and omitting of scared texts is a crime . This is a serious matter. I hope all of you will bring this matter to the Admin and Moderators of gupshup to formulate a policy of banning such posters or adding a warning script at the bottom of such posters to warn others of such posters intent and ability to deceive others . **

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** Effective people are opportunity-minded**

... and then you ask, "why are my posts being blocked and deleted?" a1shah.

JazaakumAllah khair brother Ibrahim for pointing this out. I shall take this matter up with admin Insha'Allah ... wallaah yahfithokum.

WasSalaam,

Sentinel.

[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
***a1shah*,

SubhaanAllaah! I can not believe that anyone has the audacity to try and change the words of Allaah (SWT) or his Apostle - salaatu wassalaam 'aleyhim.

Why did you re-phrase and edit this hadeeth a1shah, from its original wording in Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 6688 Narrated by Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman and posted by Ibrahim? The hadeeth reads as...

Yes, i'm sure many of us would be interested to hear the answer to this ...


"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

**
[/quote]

Dear Brother Hasnain;

I have never referred to this hadith in this thread in my arguments. This hadith, if I am not mistaken, was brought forward by Ibrahim.

Changing hadiths to suit one's own purpose should never be done.

May Allah (swt) reward you for keeping an eye out for such deceipt.

As for Ibrahim's claim that I changed wordings for the hadiths, he knows very well that I post the link for each hadith that I refer to.

It is only during my arguments that I may not write the hadith in its EXACT form, because I am making a conversation. I quote the original hadith and then discuss about it.

Ibrahim likes to take my words out of such a context and then claim that I am changing the hadith.

A quick review of this thread will show that all my hadiths and quranic ayats are referred to with links.

Truth can only be communicated with truth, not deceipt.

To suggest otherwise, it only indicates that someone would like us to digress from the main topic at hand.

The hadith on comparing Ali (as) to Harun (as) is one such prime example.

Read both Ibrahim's arguments and my points, and see if any hadith was mis-quoted or not.

May Allah (swt) guide us to the truth.

Brother Hasnain;

In case you missed my earlier thread regarding the hadith on Musa (as) and Harun (as), below, please find my understanding on the subject.

From Sahih Muslim; http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/031.smt.html
Book 031, Number 5916:

Sa’d reported Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?

The holy qur’an says;

[Yusufali 20:29] "And give me a Minister from my family,…
[Yusufali 20:36] (Allah) said: “Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!”

[Yusufali 25:35] We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

[Pickthal 7:142] … And Moses said unto his brother, Aaron: Take my place among the people.

Notice that “Ukhlufni” and “Khalifa” (Caliph) are exactly from the same
root. Now, to realize what was narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari, we need to
replace the word “Moses” with “Muhammad” and “Aaron” with “Ali”, and the issue becomes clear.

The sentence becomes “And Muhammad (PBUH&HF) said to his
‘brother’ Ali, take my place among my community.”

Of course, the tradition
in Sahih al-Bukhari excluded the Prophethood for Imam Ali, and what remains
for him is the leadership of the community.

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
** Dear Brother a1shah,

Please explain to me as per your understanding why then Hazrat Imam Hussain (ra) felt the need to fight the 'so called' elected leader?! Did he not wish to go by his father's way and endure restraint & not devide the Ummah?

I see a solid contradiction between the behaviour of Hazrat Ali (ra) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (ra) ... which can not be the case. **
[/quote]

Dear sister,

This is a very good question and for this, you must understand the time in which Imam Hussain (as) was living in.

Briefly, it may be said that Imam Husayn's revolt, staged against the tyranny, injustice, and repression of the regime and torture and execution of pious Muslims, which violated the Islamic concept of a just Islamic polity and society, was to uphold the ideals and values of Islam propounded in the Qur'an and the traditions of the Prophet (S), to rescue the higher human values, moral, social, political and spiritual, and to preserve the true spirit of Islam.

It was basically aimed by the martyred Imam ('a) to rescue Islam as the message of the last Prophet, a message that had to endure, not only in the hearts and spirits of saints but on the plane of society, and he achieved his purpose most completely.

In a will he made to Muhammad ibn Hanafiyyah while departing from Makkah, Imam Hussain (as) declares:

Indeed, I have not risen up to do mischief, neither as an adventurer, nor to cause corruption and tyranny. I have risen up solely to seek the reform of the Ummah of my grandfather (S). I want to command what is good and stop what is wrong, and (in this) I follow the conduct of my grandfather and my father, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib.

In a letter that he wrote to the people of Kufah, in a short sentence he outlines the Islamic concept of a worthy ruler:

By my life, the leader is one who acts in accordance with the Scripture, upholds justice in society, conducts its affairs according to what is righteous, and dedicates his self to God. Was-salam.

Addressing Hurr ibn Yazid Riyahi and his troops, who had been dispatched by 'Ubaydullah ibn Ziyad, the infamous governor of Kufah, to intercept the Imam's caravan on the way and to stop him from entering Kufah, Imam Husayn ('a) quotes this tradition of the Prophet (s), which states the duty of Muslims vis-a-vis corrupt and un-lslamic rulers:

O people! Verily the Messenger of Allah (s) said: "Whoever observes a sovereign legalizing what God has made unlawful, violating the covenant of God, opposing the Sunnah of the Messenger of God, and treating the creatures of God sinfully and oppressively, and does not oppose him with his speech and action, God has a right to bring him to the same fate as that of the tyrant." Indeed, these people (i.e. Yazid and the ruling Umayyads) have committed themselves to the following of Satan, and abandoned obedience to God. They have given currency to corruption and abolished the Islamic laws, plundering the public treasury, making lawful what God has forbidden and forbidding what God has permitted. And I, of all people, have a greater right to act [in accordance with the Prophet's exhortation].

On reaching Karbala', a point where they had been forced to discontinue their journey and to disembark on the orders of Ibn Ziyad, the Imam stood up to address his companions. In that sermon he declares that life under tyranny is not worthy of man, unless the people rise in an attempt to restore the higher values:

"Don't you see that what is true and right is not acted upon and what is false and wrong is not forbidden? In such a situation, the man of faith yearns for the meeting wit', his Lord. Indeed, (in such conditions) to me death is happiness, and life under the yoke of tyrants is disgrace."

Yazid chose to embark on a mission to wipe out the message of Islam. Such was never the case during the time of the first 3 caliphate.

As representatives of Allah (swt), the imams (as) act in accordance with the situation at hand.

In the case of Imam Ali (as), being patient and strengthening Islam through his teachings and guidance was the correct thing to do.

In the case of Imam Hussain (as), jihad against kufr and tyranny was the need, as a compromise with Yazid meant the destruction of Islam.


We, Ahlul Bayt (chosen descendants of the Holy Prophet), hold such central and balancing position in religion that those who are deficient in understanding and acting upon its principles, will have to come to us for reformation, and those who are overdoing it have got to learn moderation from us.

  • Imam Ali (as)

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited January 20, 2002).]

FF;

You should always try to think of positive things about your muslim brothers and sisters. Forgetting to answer one of so many questions is not the same as evading the topic.

It goes without saying that scholars, when guaranteeing that something is authentic, are using their best human judgement. Nothing besides the holy qur’an is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. So why bring up this issue ?

Nahjul Balagah is a gift from our holy Imam (as) that describes the wonders of Allah (swt), the sublime character of our holy prophet (pbuh), and delves into the wisdom of the holy imam (as).

Every muslim should read this wonderful book. You can access Nahjul Balagah at the following site:
http://www.irib.com/worldservice/imamali1/NAHJM.htm

Forgive me sister ahmedjee for overlooking your question regarding the link for NB.

Nahjul Balagah is not a shia / sunni property, but belongs to the entire ummat. As for its authenticity, you can judge the contents for yourself. If you believe in the Sahih books as being authentic, you will be amazed at the eloquence of the Imam’s (as) sermons.

Allah’s (swt) blessings be upon our holy prophet (pbuh) and his holy ahl-bait (as).

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited January 20, 2002).]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

A1shah, in other words you have no reason as to why the hadith I quoted earlier can be messed up in your quote, or are you telling us you did not quote me and by a freak accident the quote appeared in your reply and was altered by itself?

** Fear Allah! ** I have repeatedly warned you that lying leads to, one ending up as a hypocrite and your statements speaks for itself.

BTW , if I knew very well you post a link to what you may refer to, why was link absent in other hadiths and threads? why would I even question you, if there was NO problems??? and are you now telling us if you quote a hadith without a link, that is not to be considered as part of that discussion?

Ibrahim says: hmmm.. in other words you will alter hadiths as per your whims and fancies ?

So explain to me why you claimed sahih bukhari did not have such and such words

Lets READ WHAT a1shah claimed ……

when in truth Sahih Bukhari has those words

Lets Read the original !

** Sahih Al-Bukhari** Hadith Hadith 5.700 Narrated by Sad

Allah’s Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, “Do you want to leave me with the children and women?” The Prophet said, “Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? ** But there will be no prophet after me.”**

Are you now claiming

  1. you lied?

  2. you made a mistake?

  3. you were led to believe as such ?

  4. you want us to believe that you had done nothing wrong?

Ibrahim says: so now you know what I like and do not like also? Or is this the only way for you to evade the questions and continue practicing taqiyah ( deceit) ?

Ibrahim says: A1shah, tell us where in this thread you have shown links for this or answered my question concerning it, or will you now deny you did not post this as part of your discussion too?

Ibrahim wrote earlier: I give you two translations PLUS transliteration

** Yusuf Ali "And make him share my task:
Pickthall And let him share my task,
Transliteration Wa asyrik hu fi amri **

** *Now explain how you came to get the above translation? ** *

Ibrahim says; tell you what a1shah, I will throw in another 3 more translators

** MH Shakir “And associate him ( with me) in my affair”

Noble Qur’an “And let him share my task” ( of conveying Allah’s Message and prophet hood)

T.B Irving “and let him share my affair” **

NOW A1SHAH, I want to believe you are a good person and you NEVER lie, so kindly give me the link for your above translation of ayat 20:32 “and consult him in my affairs”

Ibrahim says: that is indeed so wonderful. So kindly explain why you started a thread (visit URL below) without links and why you have edited the hadiths as per your whims and fancies.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/003420.html

was salaam
Ibrahim

BTW did you mange to explain to us why the hadith I quoted got messed up?

Ibrahim;

I'm going to ignore your silly comments since it is evident that you are confused yrself as to what u write.

You keep repeating yrself like a broken record when I have quoted from the qur'an.

To be someone's minister is so that others can consult him.

It is clear for those who don't wear tinted glasses.

I will not waste time with you on this matter anymore.

ws

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah: Ibrahim;
I'm going to ignore your silly comments since it is evident that you are confused yrself as to what u write.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam.

Firstly my apologize for bringing this matter again to your attention ** but it is very serious and slanderous and those who have read this thread will be called to witness as to why they heard it and did not voice their concerns regarding it. **

Lets Look at how immoral this poster (a1shah the shia) is,

1) He quotes (hadith) posted by me and that quote is not what I wrote and till now he is unable to give an answer as to why my quote can change in meaning

2) He claims the hadith I have quoted contradicts the Qur’an, till now he cannot show me which hadith contradicts the Qur’an

3) Then he claims his discussions are all based on hadiths that are with links and he will adjust other hadiths according to his whims and fancies.

4) I have shown him and others in this forum that he is lying since he does start threads without links and also adjust them as per his whims and fancies.

5) Then he gives fictitious references to hadiths , which have already been discussed ( hadith 5915 and 5916 from Sahih Muslim which he claims is Vol 7 cairo)

6) Then he claims certain words are missing in Sahih Bukhari when they are not.

7) Then he claims Verse 7:142 talks about succession, which is most silly , since that verse is concerning Nabi Musa (as) absence amongst the Israelites for 40 days due to his private appointment with Allah (swt)

8) Then he claims Verse 20:32 talks about consultant, which is another silly claim, since NO QUR’AN I KNOW OF has translated that verse as “consult”

9) The passage from 20:25 (starting with Moses said: "O my Lord! ) …to Verse 36 (Allah said: "Granted is thy prayer O Moses!") is a dua which Nabi Musa (as) made and Allah (swt) granted

The very idea that a Nabi who is speaking directly with Allah (swt) would consider his brother as a consultant for him instead of Allah (swt) is an absurd scenario. What that verse says is ** "And make him share my task: ** which is simple to understand.

10) A1shah claims the holy qur'an says:- " and ** consult him** in my affairs ". ( 20-32). I repeatedly ask him in which holy Qur’an this is written, to date no answer

Now he spins it to mean

** To be someone's minister is so that others can consult him.**

when in truth, in that dua Nabi Musa (as) asked Allah (swt) 20:29 "And give me a Minister (meaning : priest) from my family

and yet earlier his claim was

  • Therefore, all of the mentioned in the holy qur'an should be for imam ali (a.) as it was for haroon. If you understand the qur'an, you will understand what the position of Imam Ali (as) is to the holy prophet (pbuh). *

11) then in order to establish this he quotes another fictitious hadith from the non existant Vol 7

  • 2. hadith-ul-thaqalain : the prophet (p.) said, " o, people ! i am a human being, i am going to die and i leave two valuable things among you, one is the book of allah, in it you find guidance and light ". then said, " and my family (ahl-ul-bayt), i remind you, the ahl-ul-bayt three times". see sahih muslim vol :7 p. 121. *

I asked him earlier where in Sahih Muslim is there a Vol 7, I even ask for exact reference number and I still have no reply , hence the above hadith is another lie fabricated by the shia , which I have overlooked to mention earlier.

** So there we have it folks. One lie after another, just to insinuate and slander Aishah (ra) And then adjust the scriptural texts to make believe Ali (ra) was the successor of the Prophet (pbuh) by a1shah the shia . **

Needless to say, we will have no sincere reply, which should be sufficient for those who have sufficient wisdom to comprehend the level of evil, and fitna this person has in his/her heart and mind.

May Allah (swt) help him/her before it is too late.

and I seek refuge in Allah (swt)

41: 36 And if (at any time) an incitement to discord is made to thee by the Evil One seek refuge in Allah. He is the One Who hears and knows all things

1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn

2 From the mischief of created things;

3 From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads;

4 From the mischief of those who practice Secret Arts;

5 And from the mischief of the envious one as he practices envy.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Ibrahim is a silly guy

[quote]
Originally posted by Nussairee:
Ibrahim is a silly guy
[/quote]

I don't think he is silly. I think he tries too hard and during this he goes off on all different issues.

I have read the whole thread. Let me try to summarize the whole debate, although in my opinion, it has been discussed more than its worth. In this summary I am ignoring the issue of misquoting stuff, and instead focussing on the core argument and its refutation.

a1shah's position

*The relationship of Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) and Ali (RA) is similar to that of Musa (AS) and Haroon (AS), except that Ali (AS) is not a Prophet whereas Haroon (AS) was a prophet, as per Quran.

For this reason, Ali (AS) should have been the khalifa once Prophet (SAWW) passed away.*

Ibrahim's position

*The prayer Musa (AS) did for Haroon (AS) as explained in the Quran was for a specific purpose. And when Prophet (SAWW) appointed Ali (RA) incharge of Medina, and in the hadith compared it to relationship between Musa (AS) and Haroon (AS), he was doing it for a specific time period and therefore it is incorrect to interpret it to mean that Ali (AS) should have been the first khalifa.

His position is that Abu Bakr (RA), Omar (RA) and Osman (RA), are all sincere companions of the Prophet (SAWW) and hence we must all respect them all and since Ali (RA) did take bayyet of khilafat in the hands of all these three, one after the other, so we must not either slander these great personalities, or to keep harping back to the intricate politics of the time when the Prophet (SAWW) had passed away. Abu Bakr (RA) became the khalifa because he was the closest companion of the Prophet (SAWW), because he was the one appointed by the Prophet (SAWW) to lead the prayers when the Prophet (SAWW) was sick and he was the one to whom all prominent muslims agree on at the time when Prophet (SAWW) had passed away.*

My own point: We can not turn back the time clock. We must note that Ali (RA) was indeed Ameer-ul-Momineen and all muslims respect him. If a majority of muslims wish to give respect to all companions of the Prophet (SAWW), then a minority should not expect that all of them should subscribe to their thinking and start disrespecting those great people. Whatever politics happened 1400 years ago, happened. Ali (AS) did accept Abu Bakr, Omar and Osman (AS) as Ameer-ul-Momineen. Ali (AS) knew the status of these people. And if he knew and understood, then you folks should give up this hate campaign, and instead concentrate on your prayers and hereafter, instead of bad-mouthing those people, who were the closest companions and wives of the Prophet (SAWW). Their fate is in the hands of Allah, as indeed the fate of all of us. Why waste time?

Brother Pristine;

Hope you are well.

I would have hoped that you would have summarized the shia point of view in a bit more detail.

In this thread, I have also clearly mentioned how Imam Ali (as) viewed the first 3 caliphs and the circumstances that prompted him to work with them. As such, to say that he recognized their status is misleading.

To put it succintly: You must recognize who was on the Path of Truth so that you can follow that path as well.

This is what you read in Surah Fathia, in every prayer that you perform.

Blindly accepting the status quo is not acceptable, otherwise, Imam Hussain (as) did not have to rise against Yazid (la) who had or bought the acceptance of the majority.

When neither the qur'an nor the sahih hadiths support the fact of the majority that all sahabahs were righteous, then on what grounds is such a vew held - because it is the nice thing to do ?

By Allah (swt), Imamate or following the appointed Allah's (swt) vicegerent is a religious act to ensure that we fully understand Allah's (swt) commandments and strictly follow the sunnah of our beloved prophet (pbuh).

This can only be achieved if we hold on to the two weighty things the holy prophet (pbuh) left behind - the qur'an and his ahl-bait. Failure to follow the holy prophet's (pbuh) commandments equates to dis-obedience to Allah (swt). In this situation, it does not matter how much effort you exert on a path which is deviant, for the result will never be correct.

On this note, it may be relevant to mention that having entire threads deleted by the moderators regarding exploration of such topics will and does not help understanding between the brothers and sisters.


We, Ahlul Bayt (chosen descendants of the Holy Prophet), hold such central and balancing position in religion that those who are deficient in understanding and acting upon its principles, will have to come to us for reformation, and those who are overdoing it have got to learn moderation from us.

  • Imam Ali (as)

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited January 30, 2002).]

Brother a1shah,

Allow me to put it simply for you.

Lets suppose the muslims are of two types: Shias and non-shias.

You are a shia, and you get your knowledge about Islam and islamic history from one source. Then there are non-shias who get the knowledge about Islam and islamic history from another source. There are differences in both.

You chose to accept the shia version, and that is ok, since this is your right. Those who do not accept the shia version, choose not to do so, and this is their right too. You can not force them nor can they force you to accept anything. Are we clear up to this point?

So, those non-shias, believe we must respect all companions, including imams of shias and wives of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWW). Shias say that they will only respect selected imams and ahle-bait, and they will not respect those whom they consider bad companions.

Religion holds a special place in our hearts and tempers flare easily when some one attacks our religion. Just as you feel strongly when someone disrespects Imam Ali (AS), so does non-shias feel strongly when you disrespect Hazrat Umer (AS) or Hazrat Ayesha (AS).

Now, common sense dictates that if you constantly disrespect such personalities, you are inviting fitna in the community. No one is asking you to change your views and become a non-shia. And you are free to spread your version of islam as long as you don't keep on disrepecting personalities which so many people hold dear to their hearts.

The responsibility of the moderators is to maintain peaceful and cordial atmosphere in the forum. You must understand that your constant attacks on companions and wives, while they may be justified under your thinking, are neither appropriate nor appreciated under the rules of this forum. You are very well aware of these rules, since you have been a member for a long time now.

I, therefore, kindly suggest that you re-evaluate your relationship in this forum. As a member you have as much right to post in this forum as me or the moderators. You have every right to pose questions, share knowledge, reply to queries and enlighten us about your perspective of Islam.

However, just like we do, please adhere to the rules and avoid repeatedly starting topics that hurt the religious sentiments of a large majority of the members of this forum.

And this request goes out not only to you, but to all members, regardless of their faith or religious denomination. Respect is a two-way street. If we don't respect other faiths and their religious personalities, than we should not expect them to respect our faith and our religious personalities. And the result will be chaos.

W'salam

Dear brother Pristine;

I am sure that you know very well that there is no compulsion in faith - regardless of whether you are shia, sunni, christian, jew, or hindu.

This is a place of discussion and we discuss.

I'm afraid that what you construe as attacks against certain companions and wives of the prophet (pbuh) are hadiths which come from the ahl-sunnat sahih books and verses from the qur'an.

You know this very well. This is my objection. Why do these hadiths hurt anyone when it is the belief that the hadiths are genuine ?

If the accusation is that I high-light these points and ask for an explanation, then I am guilty.

But if you think that I write against such personalities out of my own feelings, then this is a mistake, which I am sure you do not agree with either.

When you hold certain beliefs, you have to be open to questions.

If a christian posed the questions I do, it would not be taken with so much enmity.

On the same token, things are written against shias, either deliberately or due to some mis-understanding.

However, deleting entire threads is not the way to achieve such goals. Discussions have in general been held cordially between brothers.

If you believe that you are on the right path, you should not be intimidated from discussing yr beliefs.

And yes, deleting entire threads may cause topics to be repeated. I think this sort of method to subdue / govern the board atmosphere should be reviewed, at a minimum.

I hope that this makes it clear.

[quote]

We must note that Ali (RA) was indeed Ameer-ul-Momineen and all muslims respect him. If a majority of muslims wish to give respect to all companions of the Prophet (SAWW), then a minority should not expect that all of them should subscribe to their thinking and start disrespecting those great people. **
[/quote]

When you accept Hazrat Ali A.S as ameer-ul-momineen a.s then why don't you like shias do and consider all his enemies as enemy of islam. Lets not fight over names or status just accept that any enemy of Ameer-ul-momineen was an enemy of islam. You are either with Ameer-ul-momineen a.s or you are not. you can not call him ameer-ul-momineen and yet also respect his enemies. Onec you get this straight in your head you will understand shia's point of view.

Just as Hazrat Ali (AS) was Ameer-ul-Momineen, so were three people before him, and I respect all of them. I don't think Hazrat Ali (AS) considered them his enemies. And frankly, I am not interested in debating this issue with you or anyone at this point.

You are free to believe what you choose and so do I. I have conveyed my message on this topic in an earlier post and that is all I am going to say on this.

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**Just as Hazrat Ali (AS) was Ameer-ul-Momineen, so were three people before him, and I respect all of them. I don't think Hazrat Ali (AS) considered them his enemies. And frankly, I am not interested in debating this issue with you or anyone at this point.

You are free to believe what you choose and so do I. I have conveyed my message on this topic in an earlier post and that is all I am going to say on this. **
[/quote]

Brother Pristine;

No need to debate - but read your sahih books to see if it reinforces your beliefs.

We are talking of people who had enmity against the imam (as) - not of the holy imam (as) having enmity against others.

It is not unreasonable to expend efforts in order to ascertain the truth.

May Allah (swt) reward yr efforts.

that's the problem with this line of argument you take.

you tell us to read from the sahih books - these sahih books tell us of the merits of the companions.

So can i throw that request back at you - would you read from our sahih books also...and remind us of the hadith speaking of their merits.

Rather than to pick out hadiths and then pour scorn on those who were better than us and who did more for Islam than us.

And while you're at it also cast your eyes on the Sahih Hadith attributed to Ali(ra) also praising various Sahaaba(ra).

Brother Pristine, Assalamo Alaikum!

I like your unbiased reasoning, but have a small comment. No Muslim can use derogatory language against any of the Righteous Caliphs and wives of the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) and do not know of any 'non-shia' on this forum who has said anything against Ali (radhi Allaho anh).

As far as the shias are concerned, hatred is the core principle of their religion. They will not change. Only Allah can give them hidayat.

Wassalam


Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.